Harpers Bizarre Week

Writer,

So we should debase the libs while shoring up the conservative government to end the war?

Thanks for trying to provide some clarity.

I don't recall supporting the paper which published the story. In fact, I pulled from the paper the relevant quotes direct from NDP "strategists" for discussion.

Here are some more NDP quotes from strategists, without the obvious bias usually spun out by the editorial staff at the Toronto Sun.

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"Damaging Harper and the Conservatives on ethical issues like the Cadman mess mainly helps the Grits, and that's not in our gameplan."

The Dipster said, "we are not going to do anything that would give the Liberals a chance to score points, even if that means maybe pulling some punches with the Conservative government."

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It is beyond my frail powers to comprehend how debasing liberals at this time is "best for all Canadians." Especially as it relates to the issue you forward with our presence in Afghanistan. Do you think that somehow a stronger Conservative Government and a weaker Liberal opposition is going to benefit those who wish to see our involvement in Afghanistan come to a close?

How does "pulling some punches with the conservatives," benefit Canadians? How does this square with being an "opposition party?"

Can you name one policy or issue the New Democrats are forwarding that will benefit all Canadians under this strategy?

Do you see any progressive measure gaining credibility under these auspices?

In fact, could you please identify one thing that would be of benefit to all Canadians under the strategy clearly claimed in this piece by New Democratic strategists?

So you are claiming that what is printed in these quotes is not an adequate reflection of the current strategy of the NDP but rather the delusional spin of a right wing rag whom makes up sources or reports them as people they are not?

Writer,

All you have done is avoid, obfuscate and spin yourself in circles while claiming I have somehow misrepresented your positions.

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You are doing a mediocre job of misrepresenting what I write. I've got a bit of a reputation for being blunt assed. No need to reframe.

Thanks for the effort, however. It's adorable.

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You can be any kind of ass you like but please refrain from trying to fill my head full of sh!t.

Nor have you even attempted to address the matters I originally forwarded or answered these questions which bare repeating:

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It is beyond my frail powers to comprehend how debasing liberals at this time is "best for all Canadians." Especially as it relates to the issue you forward with our presence in Afghanistan. Do you think that somehow a stronger Conservative Government and a weaker Liberal opposition is going to benefit those who wish to see our involvement in Afghanistan come to a close?

How does "pulling some punches with the conservatives," benefit Canadians? How does this square with being an "opposition party?"

Can you name one policy or issue the New Democrats are forwarding that will benefit all Canadians under this strategy?

Do you see any progressive measure gaining credibility under these auspices?

In fact, could you please identify one thing that would be of benefit to all Canadians under the strategy clearly claimed in this piece by New Democratic strategists?

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And then you offer this......

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If I could get a buck for every one of these guys who comes on to babble with the same story. Must come out of some manual.

"Say you are a long-time NDP member ... the scales, they have painfully been ripped from your eyes ... critical thinking reflects others' shilling ..."

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While I appreciate a good barb every now and again it is painfully obvious that personal attacks are a last resort when the substance of the debate is abandoned and the argument lost.

People here have accused me of being a shill even though I have not defended or promoted the Liberal party. On the other hand it seems clear that more than a few here are 'reading from the same song sheet' or 'manual' as you describe it. For me, I am more comfortable being a perceived shill for the opposition Liberals than a mole for the ruling conservatives.

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Seems to me he's saying that the Liberals' own actions were disillusioning the party's traditional base. Should the NDP have discouraged such people from voting at all? Encouraged them to vote for Conservatives? Sunk money in an anyone-but-the-NDP campaign?

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At least here you are asking some relevant questions, although it is obvious that the NDP will not run an anybody but themselves campaign.

More to the points raised here; I suggest the NDP start by considering these five simple straight forward options:

1) Work to defeat the Conservatives - Federal NDP strategists should easily understand their current strategy of debasing the liberal party serves the Conservatives while forwarding an antithetical agenda which alienates the base of their own party and undermines any of the so-called successes they have claimed to date under Harper's minority.

2) Work with opposing parties to defeat the Conservatives - It is obvious to most observers that based on policy and platform, the three major opposing parties share common perspectives especially when compared to the platform of the minority conservatives. It would behoove all three parties to adjust their strategies accordingly in a bid to defeat the minority agenda of Stephen Harper.

3) Stop campaigning to be PM - While I appreciate the underpinnings of such noble posturing I find it near impossible to comprehend the unrealistic strategy of pursuing government at the real cost of advancing the Harper agenda. It is clear to me that government is an unachievable goal for the NDP and Jack Layton will not be Prime Minister, with that in mind, a coherent strategy that forwards the issues, values, morals and ideals of his party should be the priority.

4) Work with all the parties to forward issues in tune with the Party - Jack Layton could and should work on brokering deals with all parties that forward issues in tune with the agenda he has been elected to represent. That is what should occur in a minority house. This would better reflect a commitment to a progressive agenda versus simply advancing his political career while achieving minor advances in polling that are largely irrelevant.

5) Stop grandstanding on minor populist issues at the expense of major political concerns - The NDP has been historically identified as the conscience of the nation. This noble and vital role has been abandoned in favour of a strategy of headline-grabbing, populist-based measures with little if any bearing on the most relevant issues facing our country today. This strategy may serve to keep Layton in the spotlight and may even work to boost the parties fortunes in the polls, but it does so at the expense of forwarding issues of great importance.

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And what is it about the Liberals' position-of-the-day on Afghanistan that would make those against the war support the party? What is so different from the Conservatives?

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Again, I have not advocated the Liberal position but simply posed the question of how a stronger Conservative Government and weaker Liberal opposition is going to bring an end to our involvement in Afghanistan. (Oddly enough the current Liberal position is exactly the position advocated by Jack at the last convention when the 'Loonie Left' was lobbying hard for unconditional withdrawal - the position Jack is now known for.)

[ 09 March 2008: Message edited by: justschilling ]

[ 09 March 2008: Message edited by: justschilling ]

MACD,

Just so I got this right.

We WANT the RCMP to get on this?

Ok Gotcha.......

Maybe what I really need is clarification on why? Or better yet, point to a precedent where the RCMP has served the NDP well.

[ 09 March 2008: Message edited by: justschilling ]

[ 09 March 2008: Message edited by: justschilling ]

Mercy,

Thanks for your balanced and insightful comments.

I share your bewilderment with the strategy and the reported claims of the NDP's so-called strategists.

The real or perceived political support of Harper's Government is the single largest challenge facing the party.

There is a very strong likelihood, as the polls have been indicating, that Jacks party is facing decimation in the coming election based on the crux this issue presents.

Clearly dismissing those who share this concern with overblown rhetoric and personal attacks will only underscore this dilemma.

JanfromtheBruce,

Nice rant.

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I hope the NDP does become the official opposition or the govt. I hate it when they run for third place.

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Yeah don't we all but then there is that small caveat known as reality.

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Last I saw, it was the NDP who tries working with the opposition parties,

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Examples? I have got a number of our assisting the Conservatives.

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and the last I looked, it was the libs working to prop up the Harper govt.

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Right. There are still libs in the tent that are Conservatives. Ignatief and Manley among others. But more to the point, daring one to jump of a cliff and then claiming their refusal equates to "propping up the Government," is a stretch.

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It has been the NDP who has voted against every con confidence motion.

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Yeah and it has been to clever by half. Layton came out and said he would not vote for a budget he had not even seen. Which suggests to me his position is based in political posturing and not in actually opposing measures of the Government. He took the position knowing full well Dion would not jump, even after being dared and the continuous repeat of this folly is not serving Jack well.

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The libs meanwhile, keep us in Afghanistan and vote for con budgets, so I laugh when you talk about Layton Grand standing.

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I am equally disgusted about the shenanigans that continue to reinforce our presence in Afghanistan but your grandstanding completely ignores the positioning of a largely meaningless minority party hell bent on making political gain at the expense of bettering the circumstance for all Canadians.

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Anyway, do you see anything in Weston's article that is missing on the NDP position here, you being a long time NDPer and all. I mean Weston purposely was silent on the NDP wanting this to be investigated by the RCMP rather than the toothless parlimentary committee of endless soundbites but no charges.

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It should be clear that I did not write the Weston piece nor do I believe him to be a competent journalist. That said, the stickhandling of this issue to involve the RCMP seems conveniently out of tune with our history in these types of circumstances and it could be easily interpreted as deflecting one for the Conservatives.

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I guess Weston wasn't interested in balanced reporting but ensuring that his "storyline" of NDP propping up Harper although the facts don't support this myth, but what the heck, it's part of the liberal myth on how the NDP did them wrong - boo hoo.

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No one suggests the Tor Sun is balanced and it is equally deceptive to suggest the myth of the NDP supporting the Conservatives is some sort of Liberal spin. There is plenty of real, plausible incidences that support this so called myth you try to dismiss as so much hot air.

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Incidently, the NDP position on Afghanistan is not anywhere the same as the libs

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I did not say they were the same I said the current Liberal position is the same as Jack's position at the time of the last NDP Convention. You may recall that many in the party and especially in the MSMedia ridiculed the "loonie left" while twisting their claim into "our troops are terrorists" because we pointed out their role in Afghanistan while demanding unconditional and immediate withdrawal. At the time Jack's rhetoric was pretty much exactly what we are now hearing from Dion.

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Anyway, maybe you should write Jack, as a long term NDP supporter, and ask him if he would mentor Dion, you know take him under his wing and help him out.
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Whats funny is that while you make this statement with tongue firmly planted in cheek, the basis of this claim is exactly what Jack should do. He should recognize the leadership vacuum on the centre/left and move to fill it by working with the libs and providing leadership to defeat the conservatives.

[ 09 March 2008: Message edited by: justschilling ]

[ 09 March 2008: Message edited by: justschilling ]

JanfromBruce,

Last Christmas both Dion and Layton included harmonious language in their seasonal addresses.

Recent polls strongly suggest that Canadians do not jive with partisan posturing and would prefer to see someone deliver on a clear agenda supported by a majority of voters.

Your point about it being a two way street is valid but my observation has been that Jack has made a unified effort of any sort unpalatable by consistently undermining Dion and the Liberals and any effort of Dion's to extend the olive branch would be political suicide.

You may question my intent, which is all well and fine, not to mention typical in such forums, but I am not barking up the wrong tree. My intent is simple - DEFEAT THE CONSERVATIVES - end of story and there are only so many options available to us to achieve that goal.

[ 09 March 2008: Message edited by: justschilling ]

Janfrombruce,

Please do not feel obligated to continually post here as there is no such requirement.

Accidental deliberations is a delightfully eloquent blogger.

You will note in this blogger's take on the story the issue of principle is sidestepped. He in fact suggests that the question of principle in this equation is a given and is "obvious" which implies the dippers are beyond reproach in this respect. Moreover his whole premise is based on the point I already raised here on these pages with respect to becoming a governing alternative.

Again, simply put, the NDP will not become government so to suggest their strategy is superior in both principle and practice based on this premise is faulty logic and piss poor political reasoning.

On the principle issue alone. I cannot comprehend how purposely posturing to achieve the unachievable at the expense of your proprietary principles is politically salient, moral or even debatable.

In other words, if the NDP continues in this vein of working to be the governing alternative it will do so at the expense of it's principles and not in a pragmatic fashion but rather in a way that forwards the antithetical agenda of the conservative party.

So much for the moral high ground and stands of principle eh? Always remember the more mud you sling the more ground you loose.

[ 09 March 2008: Message edited by: justschilling ]

Malcolm,

Your tired refrain of Lying Liberals and relentless bastardizing of Tommy's nostalgia by invoking the age old saw of the black and white cats does nothing but marginalize your overly sanctimonious and righteous rhetoric.

Listen, brother - that was then and this is now. And if you are not disturbed by what this band of Neo-cons have done to our country in a couple of short years under a minority government and without reasonable scrutiny then you Sir, are simply not paying attention, or.........

Explain a strategy that stops it.

Roll out a plan that defeats Harper.