Paralyzed woman sues chiropractic for half billion

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Fri, 2008-06-13 09:03

Trevormkidd

quote:

Originally posted by Catchfire:
The response from chiro practitioners is that malpractice suits are made against 'real' doctors all the time, but they don't get this kind of press.

How much press are we talking about? I haven't seen this story in the national news or high volume papers yet - but I might have missed it.

This hasn't been some kind of media witch-hunt. What it has been is the like of MacPhail and Benedetti (among others) bashing their head against the wall for years while victims suffer in obscurity and a profession continues to treat every day something (subluxations) that they have never been able to show even exists in first place - and they don't inform their patients of that.

Fri, 2008-06-13 09:04

#53

N.R.KISSED

quote:

some bullshit theory of some magical energy flowing from here to there or whatever,

Actually Ayurveda, Traditional Chinese and indigenous healing systems around the world are also
based on energy flow. Are they all bullshit too?

Western Psychiatry believes psycho emotional distress is based on magical neurochemical process none of which have been empirically demonstrated yet it somehow gets a pass as legitimate medicine. Not only have the neurochemical theories not been demonstrated the dopamine hypothesis for "schizophrenia" and the catacholmine hypothesis for "mood disorders" have been empirically demonstrated to be false. Psychiatry still engages in dangerous and devastating "treatments" on this basis. The drugs psychiatry uses have all gone through clinical trials even though there is firm evidence that these trials were often fraudulent, the drugs have not been pulled from the market.

I think we need to be equally critical of conventional medical theory and practice as we are
of alternative practices. In terms of non-western healing I think it is even more important to be aware of critiquing methods that are based in cosmologies that we do not understand.

Fri, 2008-06-13 09:07

#54

Sven

quote:

Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]It's pretty scary that chiro is covered by OHIP when dentists and psychologists aren't.[/b]

Yeah, I’ve never quite understood the rigid wall between MDs and dentists. I mean, dentists are essentially (not exactly but close enough) MDs who specialize on teeth. I mean, if a person has a problem with her elbow, it’s covered but if she has a problem with her teeth (often more severe or debilitating), it’s not.

Fri, 2008-06-13 09:14

#55

oldgoat

Personally, I try to stay open minded about alternate approaches. I've seen Ayurvedic medicine work well with my clients, and am interested in Reiki. I also think it's sort of intuitive that the having a properly aligned spinal column would be generally benificial.

What this appears to be turning on though, is the high neck adjustment proceedure, how it is currently done and how it is currently marketed. This I see is the issue of the suit.

Regarding main stream medicine, from what I've seen, most if not all what are called "alternative therapies" would be happy to be governed by legal regulatory bodies, yet keep the integrity of their distinctions from the western mainstream. Chiropractic, more than anything else, has tried and tried to become main stream medicine.

[ 13 June 2008: Message edited by: oldgoat ]

Fri, 2008-06-13 09:30

#56

Polly B

Can someone explain to me how the neck adjustment was the cause of stroke? It's not clear from the article and I am having trouble making the link. Thanks.

Edit to add - Nevermind. I had to adjust my google search from strike to stroke and found my answer. Stupid typos.

[ 13 June 2008: Message edited by: Polly Brandybuck ]

Fri, 2008-06-13 09:35

#57

Michelle

quote:

Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:
[b]Actually Ayurveda, Traditional Chinese and indigenous healing systems around the world are also based on energy flow. Are they all bullshit too?[/b]

I would say that any system that depends on "energy flow" as a scientific explanation is more in the realm of religion than science - and I'm enough of a student of philosophy to know that you can't prove or disprove religion.

When it comes to naturopathic or homeopathic or traditional medicines, I'm pretty live-and-let-live about them when they're benign. Naturopaths will tell you that even if something they recommend doesn't help you, it won't harm you either. So, fine, if it doesn't hurt people, I don't care what they believe, any more than I care whether they go to church on Sunday and pray at the ceiling, and hire priests to make it all seem more real to them.

But chiropractic disguises itself as medical science and chiropractors do invasive techniques which, as we can see, can catastrophically injure or kill people.

That's a little bit different than Ayurveda and naturopathy.

Fri, 2008-06-13 09:36

#58

oldgoat

I've had that explained to me, though I'm sure others can explain it better. Has to do with how a couple of fairly crucial veins proceed and do hair pin turns through and around some very dense bone spurs and other tissue adjacent to the neck. they have a certain kind of lining which can be damaged by the rapid rotation of the adjustment, creating blood clots which travel to the brain.

I read, and will try to recall where, that when ER Drs. see this they can pretty well tell it's from a adjustment, and that the true numbers greater than the chiropractic community has revealed.

I'm hoping others can offer a better answer.

Fri, 2008-06-13 09:36

#59

Michael Hardner Michael Hardner's picture

Chiro is no longer covered by OHIP from what I understand. I lost my ability for partial coverage years ago.

I want to add my voice to those who have experienced relief from chiropractic care. I have an office job, and work from home and if I go too long without adjustments, I become very stiff.

I think that if, as Michelle points out, this was a healthy person then the chiropractor in question may be in the wrong. That shouldn't necessarily condemn the entire profession.

Fri, 2008-06-13 09:39

#60

Michelle

quote:

Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:
[b]Western Psychiatry believes psycho emotional distress is based on magical neurochemical process none of which have been empirically demonstrated yet it somehow gets a pass as legitimate medicine. [/b]

So does chiropedic. They're kind of similar, aren't they? I think a lot of people who are sceptical about chiro are also skeptical about drugging people up with psych meds too. At least, I am.

I think there are a lot of people out there who wouldn't dream of doing magnet therapy and crystal healing and any other stuff that they'd consider to be woo-woo, but who have been tricked into believing that chiropractic is actual medical science based on scientific principles.

[ 13 June 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

Fri, 2008-06-13 09:49

#61

Michelle

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Hardner:
[b]I think that if, as Michelle points out, this was a healthy person then the chiropractor in question may be in the wrong. That shouldn't necessarily condemn the entire profession.[/b]

Unless the profession itself allows its practitioners to perform these dangerous procedures on healthy people as "preventative" therapy. In which case, they're liable for not regulating the profession properly. [url=http://www.albertachiro.com/public/index.asp?fuseaction=70]And apparently, they do recommend exactly that.[/url]

[ 13 June 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

Fri, 2008-06-13 09:49

#62

oldgoat

Actually, further to what I said above, just how bloody alternative is chiropractic? They're in every mall in the country. I think they've won their battle into the mainstream, and are just as territorial, insular, and cover-your-ass as any main stream medicine.

Fri, 2008-06-13 09:49

#63

kropotkin1951

I used to use chiropractic services but don't anymore. When I had back pain they seemed to give me symptom relief but I had similar or better results when I switched to Massage Therapy. I also found almost every chrio I went to wanted to continue treatments way beyond anything tht I could see was actually doing anything.

Fri, 2008-06-13 09:53

#64

N.R.KISSED

quote:

I think a lot of people who are sceptical about chiro are also skeptical about drugging people up with psych meds too. At least, I am.

I would disagree psychiatry is generally accepted as
a legitimate part of medicine, evidence based, empirical etc. I don't see the Canadian medical establishment campaigning against it.

I go to see a chiropractor for sciatica. My own practitioner has not made wild unfounded claims as to it's curative powers in fact he is very honest and transparent if he believes treatment isn't working and is open to trying something different. This particular practitioner is also trained in massage and acupuncture.

He has never mentioned anything about "subluxation" and he is open about his treatment methods. Often he will give both a physiological explantion for muscular/skeletal imbalance as well as TCM explanation of energy flow. Probably the most helpful thing he has done for me is orthotic implants for my shoes. I am therefor reluctant to dismiss all chiropractic treatment. I would agree that dangerous practices should be ended and unsubstantiated claims be challenged.

Fri, 2008-06-13 09:57

#65

oldgoat

I think it's accepted that low chiropractic is helpful for low back stuff. Maybe you have one of the good ones, like finding good psychiatrist.

Fri, 2008-06-13 10:10

#66

Michelle

That's good that your chiropractor isn't doing the woo-woo stuff, but if lots of others are and the professional board allows it, and you almost get killed by it, then the board should take some responsibility.

I would be fine with the College of Physicians and Surgeons taking responsibility for allowing psychiatric scamming to happen as well.

I think what you find is that most people who haven't thought about it much see psychiatry AND chiro as mainstream medicine.

Fri, 2008-06-13 10:18

#67

Sven

I think I'm going to need to purchase and read "Spin Doctors".

Fri, 2008-06-13 10:28

#68

farnival

quote:

Originally posted by Michelle:
...chiropractors do [b]invasive[/b] techniques...

[url=http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/invasive]invasive[/url]

quote:

Random House unabridged:
3. Medicine/Medical. requiring the entry of a needle, catheter, or other instrument into a part of the body, esp. in a diagnostic procedure, as a biopsy.
Encyclopedia Britanica:
3. Of or relating to a medical procedure in which a part of the body is entered, as by puncture or incision.
(the list goes on...)

chiropractors do nothing of the sort, nor do they prescribe drugs.

you can suggest something as much as you like, but to misrepresent the facts does nothing to add credibility to an argument.

sort of like how this whole lawsuit will end up, just like the saskatchewan one did. as not based in fact.

the medical industry doesn't make money on equipment or the drugs they push. chiropractors hurt the establishments' collective bottom line.

i think that is the real reason for the villification of the profession and dicipline, and the ensuing exaggeration and hysteria over injuries alleged to result.

when a book is written and a half billion dollar class action lawsuit is launched against "traditional western medicine" based on the thousands of daily "negative medical outcomes" then this discussion will not be lopsided and based on the same unproven heresay and pseudo-science chiropractic is accused of.

i will apologise now for bowing out of a discussion now, that i've been part of, but my blood is starting to boil and i feel i might be running the risk of becoming uncivil.

so out of respect for fellow babblers, i'm signing off in this thread and look forward to a successful outcome for the defendants in this case.

edited for clarity!

[ 13 June 2008: Message edited by: farnival ]

Fri, 2008-06-13 10:43

#69

ElizaQ

Chiming in now. I actually agree with both things that Michelle and farnival and others with various positions have said.
I do have problems with the whole neck manipulation issue as well as people who don't lay out the potential risks, on the other hand I have had similar experience as Farnival where the mainstream medical system basically gave up and was ready to rule me out as permanently damaged.
So just to add my own anecdote. I was in a car accident and experienced very serious muscle strain and damage in the lower neck and left shoulder area. It was quite debilitating and for about a month I could barely move without some serious medication. There was know structural as in bone damage which was good. When I finally started rehabilitative therepy my shoulder muscles had basically lost all strength and I couldn't even move my shoulders back. So anyways I was lucky in that the insurance company agreed to pay for extra occupational therepy on top of the physio I could already get through medical because my career at the time was a physical one.
The initial prognosis by all medical people was simply...we don't know what the recovery level will be. So for six months I was on pretty much daily rounds of physio, occupational therapy in a gym with several rounds of massage therapy thrown in.
I improved a lot, there is no doubt about that though at around month 5 I plateaued and improvement stopped. It got to the point where my doctor and physio were talking about permanent pain and were considering moving into a more pain management scheme of treatment. Very frustrating as that also meant a reconsideration of pretty much my whole life. A friend recommended seeing a chiropractor. At that point I was willing to look into anything. My doctor wasn't happy about it and told me about all of the risks that people have talked about it here.
So I went and he did an extensive examination and he was quite open about the risks, especially around the neck thing. His opinion was though that the main problem holding me back was not and issue with my neck or even the spine in the area of injury but problems with the lower back and tailbone area. That basically it was out of alignment. At first I was skeptical because I wasn't experiencing any problems there and the main focus of treatment was on the area of injury. He explain it in a way that made sense so I agreed to try it out.
The difference after the first session was incredible. The work was in the lower area and one manipulation of the neck. Two days later my physio was actually amazed at the difference between my last session. Things were just working better. I continued seeing the chiro for about six weeks and along with the physio saw a huge leap in improvement. Basically went from getting a diagnosis of permanent damage and chronic pain to being pain free and able to get back to my previous physical activity.

So my opinion about the whole chiropratic issue is varied. I am also familar with the whole field of alternative and complentary medicine, have had training in herbal medicine but am of the mind that it isn't a matter of one is better then the other. I know quacks, met quacks and get just as frustrated with people that I deem quacks because they cloud the issues as I see it. Some of the stuff out there is just hokey imo. It is also rife with politics both at a meta level and at individual micro level, with many people from all sides being very territorial. IMO this type of stuff can impeed what I think are necessary to sort through truth from fiction and can be very dangerous for the uneducated partaker.
I do think that there is something to many aspects of chiropractory that are worth more investigation at the same time I do know that there are very serious issues about it. I do have a very big issue if people aren't informed about the risks, even if they are remote, or if they are downplayed. I was told and went into it knowingly. I also have some issue with a healthy person going for 'preventative' and 'general health' treatments.
Not necessarily for the same reasons expressed here (it being just plain hokey), but because it just doesn't jive with my personal understanding of some of the (hokey) ways alternative medicine works. In my opinion there are less invasive ways of accomplishing the same thing.

Fri, 2008-06-13 11:12

#70

It's Me D

Chiro is certainly no worse then its mainstream alternatives. A massive industry has been created around cramming people full of all manner of mostly unnecessary and certainly damaging pills from the youngest age possible. Both are potentially useful treatments perverted by capitalism. Thanks to those Babblers who raised traditional/indigenous medicinal practices, there is a lot that we can learn there. Its no wonder western industro-medicine has worked so hard to convince the unskeptical that we're better off without this learning. And that's saying nothing of "the war on drugs"; the drugs that aren't trademarked and forcefed to us that is.

Fri, 2008-06-13 11:43

#71

Sven

quote:

Originally posted by It's Me D:
[b]Its no wonder western industro-medicine has worked so hard to convince the [b][i]unskeptical[/b][/i] that we're better off without this learning.[/b]

What an ironic choice of word.

Fri, 2008-06-13 12:20

#72

Trevormkidd

quote:

Originally posted by It's Me D:
Chiro is certainly no worse then its mainstream alternatives.

It is too bad that modern medicine haters couldn't spend a day with say a neonatal cardiac surgeon. So they could see that when there is actually something wrong with someone there is modern medicine that works most of the time and is always getting better vs alternative medicine that works none of the time and for the most part is stuck in the past.

There is more to modern medicine than the drug companies, and if you were to ever read a medical journal you would see a good deal of criticism from the "medical establishment" towards the drug industry.

Fri, 2008-06-13 12:31

#73

oldgoat

I've never had any doubt that there are certain types of things which modern medicine does extreemly well. I showed up at my ER with chest pains a few years back, and my treatment from the second I walked in to all the follow up was most impressive.

A good friend of my sons, when 12, was run over by a car and dragged underneath. It was ghastly. My enduring mental image is hearing about her braces being ripped off on the pavement. That she was reassembled and back in showroom condition five months later is miraculous. (she's got more metal in her than a '59 Packard Clipper)

They are at their best with that stuff. I think it might contribute to a bit of hubris though, and when dealing with certain other things like mental health, or our biochemical subtleties, there is much to be learned from other traditions.

I think this thread is about one particular style of practice which had gotten pretty huge, and done so without due scrutiny.

Fri, 2008-06-13 12:39

#74

HeywoodFloyd

quote:

Originally posted by oldgoat:
[b]It was ghastly. My enduring mental image is hearing about her braces being ripped off on the pavement. That she was reassembled and back in showroom condition five months later is miraculous. (she's got more metal in her than a '59 Packard Clipper)[/b]

Dental Braces??!!

That racked me over with Shudders

Fri, 2008-06-13 13:21

#75

Trevormkidd

quote:

Originally posted by oldgoat:
They are at their best with that stuff. I think it might contribute to a bit of hubris though, and when dealing with certain other things like mental health, or our biochemical subtleties, there is much to be learned from other traditions.

I agree 100%, there is a lot to be learned from traditional medicine. However, nobody would ever say that they want to be treated through traditional european medicine as we recognize that most of it was ridiculous (while a small percentage worked). Why was it ridiculous? Partly because it was based on a very simplistic (and wrong) view of the body. The same goes other traditional medicines. Mostly ridiculous, but some of it works. That isn't a bad thing, as it was through understanding that or why most things didn't work and some things did that we have managed to gain a much better understanding of how the body works. It is complicated as all hell, but the problem is we like simple, we think things should be simple, and if someone can give us a simple explaination we like that - we feel smart.

The basic theory of chiropractic is very simple: that all illnesses come from a misalignment of the spine (that right - germ theory, germ schmeory). They based that field on that simple, but ridiculously wrong explaination of how the body works. That doesn't mean that no chiropractic technique could be beneficial to anyone - it is possible to reach the right answer by using faulty reasoning. But the body is very complicated, which is why medical advances are uneven. Modern medicine is not very good at treating lower back pain - neither is chiropractic medicine. Which is why you have some studies that show that chiropractic was a little more effective than pharmaceutical methods at treating lower back pain and some studies that show the opposite - but the real reality is that neither method has been shown to be very good at all. And if modern medicine can't provide relief of certain ailments then really is there anything wrong with going elsewhere. That is something that people have to answer for themselves. However, eventually when actual strongly effective methods for correcting lower back pain arrive, my guess is that it will come from the field that is dedicated to unravelling and understanding the complexities of the human body (a field where the basic introduction to the molecular biology of a cell is a text this [url=http://www.amazon.com/Molecular-Biology-Cell-Bruce-Alberts/dp/0815341067...)
, and not from the field that is based on a simplistic view.

Fri, 2008-06-13 15:06

#76

N.R.KISSED

quote:

I would say that any system that depends on "energy flow" as a scientific explanation is more in the realm of religion than science - and I'm enough of a student of philosophy to know that you can't prove or disprove religion.

So if it's not validated by western scientific reductionism it's of no value? That sounds suspiciously like culture arrogance it also rests on the presumption that western medicine is close to a perfect knowledge of health and the assumption that medical practice is based in scientific methods.

To be honest I used to cringe every time anyone other than a physicist spoke of "energy" however I
decided since I really don't know anything about ayurveda or TCM and I don't accept western science as the only acceptable source of knowledge.

[ 13 June 2008: Message edited by: N.R.KISSED ]

Fri, 2008-06-13 15:13

#77

Michelle

I don't either. I don't care what people believe or how they come to believe it.

When they start killing and paralyzing unsuspecting people without warning them ahead of time that it could happen, that's when I have a problem with it.

Fri, 2008-06-13 15:24

#78

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

My anecdote trumps your anecdote.

Fri, 2008-06-13 15:35

#79

ElizaQ

quote:

Originally posted by Trevormkidd:
[b]
I agree 100%, there is a lot to be learned from traditional medicine. However, nobody would ever say that they want to be treated through traditional european medicine as we recognize that most of it was ridiculous (while a small percentage worked). Why was it ridiculous? Partly because it was based on a very simplistic (and wrong) view of the body. The same goes other traditional medicines. Mostly ridiculous, but some of it works. That isn't a bad thing, as it was through understanding that or why most things didn't work and some things did that we have managed to gain a much better understanding of how the body works. It is complicated as all hell, but the problem is we like simple, we think things should be simple, and if someone can give us a simple explaination we like that - we feel smart.
[url=http://www.amazon.com/Molecular-Biology-Cell-Bruce-Alberts/dp/0815341067...)
, and not from the field that is based on a simplistic view.[/b]

What on earth are you referring to here by 'traditional European medicine?' A certain era? A certain set of beliefs? The history of European medicine was never stagnant and most of are modern day practices are just an evolution along the continuum of largely European medical history.

Fri, 2008-06-13 16:07

#80

Trevormkidd

quote:

Originally posted by ElizaQ:
What on earth are you referring to here by 'traditional European medicine?' A certain era? A certain set of beliefs? The history of European medicine was never stagnant and most of are modern day practices are just an evolution along the continuum of largely European medical history.

I disagree completely. Traditional european medicine, like traditional medicine almost everywhere else developed from religious thinking, cultural experience rituals, magic and used herbs, animal parts, the four humours and so on. Modern medicine is not a continuation of, or evolution from european traditional medicine, but actually a break from those traditons. A break in which current evidence was considered more valuable then the knowledge of elders and tradition. A break in which islamic ideas of evidence-based medicine, experimental medicine, clinical trials etc overtook the european ideas of superstition and authority of elders and tradition. (modern medical ideas are mostly islamic in origin, obviously there must have been medicine before, and that european traditional medicine was completely different) Some forms of that traditional medicine survived among religious communities such as the Amish and Mennonites and some forms or parts of it have been revitalized by alternative medicine practicioners.

[ 13 June 2008: Message edited by: Trevormkidd ]

Fri, 2008-06-13 16:37

#81

ElizaQ

quote:

Originally posted by Trevormkidd:
[b]
I disagree completely. Traditional european medicine, like traditional medicine almost everywhere else developed from religious thinking, cultural experience rituals, magic and used herbs, animal parts, the four humours and so on. Modern medicine is not a continuation of, or evolution from european traditional medicine, but actually a break from those traditons. A break in which current evidence was considered more valuable then the knowledge of elders and tradition. A break in which islamic ideas of evidence-based medicine, experimental medicine, clinical trials etc overtook the european ideas of superstition and authority of elders and tradition. (modern medical ideas are mostly islamic in origin, obviously there must have been medicine before, and that european traditional medicine was completely different) Some forms of that traditional medicine survived among religious communities such as the Amish and Mennonites and some forms or parts of it have been revitalized by alternative medicine practicioners.
[ 13 June 2008: Message edited by: Trevormkidd ][/b]

Alright that's a fair enough assessment at least more clear to what you're referencing though. I've just never heard of the era you're talking about referred to in that way. A few details I might quibble about as not being completely dropped but nothing worth debating about.
I be interested in though as to what current alternative medicine practices you see as actually reviving the era you're talking about here as 'traditional.'

Fri, 2008-06-13 16:49

#82

triciamarie

Here's my anecdote: a good friend of mine was in his 30's when he developed debilitating pain in his hip. He was referred to an orthopaedic surgeon who carried out the usual hi-tech diagnostic imaging and proposed hip replacement surgery. My friend was very much taken aback to be needing a new hip at his age and level of athleticism. Someone suggested he consult a chiropractor. My friend had never considered chiropractic, had the same prejudices about this discipline as many others, but feeling tht he had not much to lose, he went.

In the first session, the problem was instantly, on sight, identified as originating from a nerve root in his spine (causing scoliosis to the trained eye) -- nothing whatsoever wrong with his hip. After three session he was totally cured and back to reffing major junior hockey. Some time later he was walking in the mall with his family on a weekend and the problem came back; he could hardly walk but got hold of his chiropractor at his home, who told him to get into the clinic immediately -- performed one single adjustment and my friend was back to normal.

That was a good ten years ago and he hasn't had any back, or hip, problems since.

Fri, 2008-06-13 17:06

#83

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

I doubt very much that your friend had "scoliosis".

Scoliosis is obvious even to the untrained eye, and there's no way an orthopedic surgeon would miss it. Also, it's not caused by compression of a nerve root in the spine.

Fri, 2008-06-13 17:44

#84

oldgoat

Quite so. I grew up with a friend with scoliosis. He looked like a question mark. Ended up having surgery and we had no end of fun at his expense while he was in a body cast. He's normal enough now (well, not really, he writes for the CBC) but I concur with M. Spector on the matter.

Fri, 2008-06-13 17:48

#85

oldgoat

So things seemed to have made the main stream news.

[url=http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080613/chiro_lawsu... news has picked it up.[/url]

ETA: I just want to say I was a bit tickled by this comment following the story...

quote:

Ian
It's amazing how closed minded people can really be. For every hundred people that disagree with chiropractic care, I can show you the same number of happy people that go to Chiropractors everyday...

Good thing he didn't indulge in hyperbole by saying "for every thousand people..."

[ 13 June 2008: Message edited by: oldgoat ]

Fri, 2008-06-13 18:06

#86

Trevormkidd

quote:

Originally posted by ElizaQ:
I be interested in though as to what current alternative medicine practices you see as actually reviving the era you're talking about here as 'traditional.'

Herbal medicine was popular in europe as traditional medicine (Rue, savin, wormwood etc) as is obvious through the traditions of Wicca, Druidism, Pagans, Shamans, early Christians would have practiced medicine that was spiritual, holistic, natural, and involving magic, astrology, dream related etc. Not that I am saying that the modern versions are the exact same, of course not, much of that history is lost, some survived and it is near impossible to tell whether early medicine was influenced from elsewhere or the influencer of elsewhere, or even more likely that traditional medicines developed several places simultaneously. One massive book by Gerard from the 16th century contains ridiculous amounts of traditional herbal information (about 1700 pages) and has supposedly influenced traditional medicine throughout the world. Willow bark for instance was undoubtably used traditionally in Europe, Africa and the Middle East long before Hippocrates wrote about it 2500 years ago. Blood-letting is generally only associated with Europe although it figures prominently in early writing of Ayurvedic medicine and Chinese Traditional medicine (most likely an early precursor to acupuncture). Old wives tales like Feed a Fever, Starve a cold probably stem from traditional medicine and ideas of opposite cures and "like cures like" are also very old.

Fri, 2008-06-13 18:08

#87

oldgoat

[url=http://www.cbc.ca/cp/health/080613/x061302A.html]CBC seems to have it now.[/url]

Fri, 2008-06-13 18:50

#88

jas

So is rabble on a crusade against chiropractic now? Two moderators and one editor all speaking out against a long established, MSP-approved therapy based on a single news item. Is this how you sell rabble TV? I'm really shocked at the tone here.

Last time I went to a chiropractor, I had to sign a waiver that indemnified her should anything go wrong. I would guess that this is pretty standard practice, so I would wonder how this woman went for SEVEN years without signing a waiver. The other question that obviously comes up is, if "nothing was wrong" with her, why did she keep going to a chiropractor for SEVEN years? Was she brainwashed by him? I'm sorry, but is there no room for personal responsibility here?

When I suffered knee pain back in my twenties, it was the chiropractor who was able to truly help me. Not my GP, not the podiatrist he sent me to, and not the physiotherapist. The chiropractor was able to show me how the rotation in my hip was causing the patella in my knee to not flow smoothly. Something that has been confirmed by massage therapists since. Adjustments were typically in the hip and back. And were effective. It was she who prescribed the orthotics which basically eliminated the problem for me for the next two years. Those were the best pair of orthotics that I have had. The ones I got through MSP years later never compared.

Regarding the waiver, if I didn't feel comfortable getting a neck adjustment, I just told her so. And there were days when I didn't want it. No chiropractor is going to force that on any patient, so I suspect we're not getting the full story here.

And can neck adjustments eliminate colds? Yes. Duh. So can massage therapy on the neck. But you wouldn't know that if you have no first-hand knowledge of it. Which you obviously don't.

Fri, 2008-06-13 18:51

#89

Trevormkidd

quote:

Originally posted by oldgoat:
So things seemed to have made the main stream news.
[url=http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080613/chiro_lawsu... news has picked it up.[/url]

Here are my favorite comments from the CTV article:

quote:

I'm a 2nd year medical student and I am having a hard time imagining a connection between chiropractor and stroke.

Then a little later:

quote:

To the second year Med Student....QUIT NOW!!!

(I thought that was pretty funny. Anatomy and Physiology is taught in year one. My Gray's Anatomy has 31 pages on the neck - just by looking at the pictures you should be able to imagine the possibility)

Fri, 2008-06-13 19:01

#90

jas

quote:

Originally posted by Le Tйlйspectateur:
This would be another example where settler people get to make up their own medical treatments willy-nilly and call themselves Dr, while Indigenous people are persecuted (and prosecuted) for using 1000's of years old evidence-based health care.[/QB]

Oo. Nicely said.

Fri, 2008-06-13 19:03

#91

Trevormkidd

quote:

Originally posted by jas:
So is rabble on a crusade against chiropractic now? Two moderators and one editor all speaking out against a long established, MSP-approved therapy based on a single news item.

But it would be no problem if the crusade was against any part of the big bad medical establishment right? Last I checked the drug industry was long established, so I guess they should be out of bounds. Just because you believe that alternative medicine can do no harm, doesn't mean that the every other babbler has to agree. Just because you have no sympathy for victims of chiropratic doesn't mean that the rest of us are not allowed to.

[ 13 June 2008: Message edited by: Trevormkidd ]

Fri, 2008-06-13 19:13

#92

jas

quote:

Originally posted by Le Tйlйspectateur:
This would be another example where settler people get to make up their own medical treatments willy-nilly and call themselves Dr, while Indigenous people are persecuted (and prosecuted) for using 1000's of years old evidence-based health care.

Fri, 2008-06-13 19:14

#93

jas

quote:

Originally posted by Michelle:
I would say that any system that depends on "energy flow" as a scientific explanation is more in the realm of religion than science - and I'm enough of a student of philosophy to know that you can't prove or disprove religion.

This statement astounds me. Do you live in some different universe from the rest of us? One in which energy doesn't exist? I'd be very interested to know what your universe is comprised of. And your body.

What is it that makes your heart beat, Michelle? Can you answer that?

Fri, 2008-06-13 19:22

#94

Trevormkidd

quote:

Originally posted by Le Tйlйspectateur:
This would be another example where settler people get to make up their own medical treatments willy-nilly and call themselves Dr, while Indigenous people are persecuted (and prosecuted) for using 1000's of years old evidence-based health care.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jas: Oo. Nicely said.

Ironic then that you are passionately defending chiropractic. A field founded by a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_David_Palmer]settler[/url], who made up his own treatments willy-nilly. And his followers even have a doctorate!

Fri, 2008-06-13 19:29

#95

jas

The point was about the protectionist medical establishment authenticating itself via a system that is incapable of measuring or replicating proven centuries-old health treatments, thereby invalidating them and forcing people into a mono-system. And yes, chiropractors do fall into this protectionist mindset.

Fri, 2008-06-13 19:33

#96

Trevormkidd

quote:

Originally posted by jas:
What is it that makes your heart beat, Michelle? Can you answer that?

In my case a fairy tickles my heart.

Fri, 2008-06-13 19:34

#97

jas

Glad to hear it, Trevor.

Let's just hope it's a [i]scientifically proven[/i] fairy. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Fri, 2008-06-13 19:38

#98

Trevormkidd

quote:

Originally posted by jas:
Glad to hear it, Trevor.
Let's just hope it's a scientifically proven fairy. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Well science can't prove that there is not a very very tiny fairy in my SA node tickling my heart 60 plus times a minute.

Fri, 2008-06-13 19:48

#99

jas

Are you sure? The fairy would have to hide pretty darn good to avoid being seen by a heart surgeon or an endoscopist, for example.

But if you're really, really sure it's a fairy, why would I give a shit? The point is, your heart beats. Right?

Fri, 2008-06-13 19:57

#100

Trevormkidd

quote:

Originally posted by jas:
Are you sure? The fairy would have to hide pretty darn good to avoid being seen by a heart surgeon or an endoscopist, for example.

True, but I have never had surgery or an endoscope. And anyways my fairy is less than the size of cell and invisible, but she sure can tickle.

quote:

But if you're really, really sure it's a fairy, why would I give a shit? The point is, your heart beats. Right?

Now that I think about it, my heart might only be beating when I pay attention to it. The rest of the time there might be something else keeping me alive. For instance I have no idea if my heart is beating when I am asleep. Great, now how am I supposed to fall asleep tonight.

[ 13 June 2008: Message edited by: Trevormkidd ]

Fri, 2008-06-13 20:07

#101

jas

quote:

Originally posted by Trevormkidd:
Now that I think about it, my heart might only be beating when I pay attention to it. The rest of the time there might be something else keeping me alive. For instance I have no idea if my heart is beating when I am asleep. Great, now how am I supposed to fall asleep tonight.

Well, what's really gonna bend your noodle is (trying to sound like the Prophet from [i]The Matrix[/i]) maybe you're only [i]alive[/i] when you think about it.

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