Man rips head from Hitler wax figure in Berlin
Sat, 2008-07-05 09:41
#1
Man rips head from Hitler wax figure in Berlin
Sat, 2008-07-05 09:41
#2
Right idea, if only someone had done this to the real thing 70 years ago.
[url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080705/en_nm/germany_hitler_head_dc] Man rips head from Hitler wax figure in Berlin[/url]
quote:
A man tore the head from a controversial waxwork figure of Adolf Hitler on the opening day of Berlin's Madame Tussauds museum on Saturday, police said.Just minutes after the museum opened, the 41-year-old German man pushed aside two security men guarding the exhibit.
"Then he went over to the figure and ripped off the head," a police spokesman said.
Sat, 2008-07-05 09:52
#3
That'll show that Madame Tussaud bitch. [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
Sat, 2008-07-05 10:08
#4
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Doug:
[b]That'll show that Madame Tussaud bitch. [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]
Perhaps ya could have worded that differently?!
Sat, 2008-07-05 16:45
#5
Makwa
aka MyCroft, can you please explain what significance this incident has in the context of ' anti-racism news and initiatives '? Otherwise it shall gently slide over to news, or culture, or banter or something.
If this is what people consider worthy of sharing under the rubric of 'anti-racism' without being regularly nudged towards topics by a helpful, thoughtful and gentle moderator such as BCG was, then this forum is in worse shape than I thought.
PS: Oh, and Doug, please edit that comment asap - we don't need misogynist faux irony on top of everything else here.
[ 05 July 2008: Message edited by: Makwa ]
Sat, 2008-07-05 17:02
#6
quote:
Originally posted by Makwa:
[b]aka MyCroft, can you please explain what significance this incident has in the context of ' anti-racism news and initiatives '? Otherwise it shall gently slide over to news, or culture, or banter or something.If this is what people consider worthy of sharing under the rubric of 'anti-racism' without being regularly nudged towards topics by a helpful, thoughtful and gentle moderator such as BCG was, then this forum is in worse shape than I thought.
PS: Oh, and Doug, please edit that comment asap - we don't need misogynist faux irony on top of everything else here.
[ 05 July 2008: Message edited by: Makwa ][/b]
It seems to have been an anti-fascist act of protest. Still, moving to news works for me.
Sat, 2008-07-05 17:05
#7
Huh? Hitler was a benchmark racist - against Jews, Roma and Slavs - and most discriminatory against a great many other human groups. He sure wouldn't have liked yours.
I suspect the guy was a bit off his head, but I know people who are upset about the figurine- there are other ways to acknowledge Nazism as part of German history.
Sat, 2008-07-05 17:35
#8
Makwa
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
[b]Huh? Hitler was a benchmark racist - against Jews, Roma and Slavs - and most discriminatory against a great many other human groups. He sure wouldn't have liked yours.[/b]
Fine, but do we have any information that would indicate that this particular activity had anything to do with these beliefs, or is any action that would appear to show disdain towards Adolph Hitler become an anti-racist action? If I publicly destroy a picture of George Washington, am I an anti-racist activist because GW enslaved people?
Sat, 2008-07-05 21:12
#9
[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/06/germany]Hitler swiftly loses his head in the dictator's latest downfall[/url]
quote:
In life, he died from a pistol shot to the head. But yesterday, Hitler's wax effigy met the fate of the French nobility after 1789: decapitation. A controversial waxwork that went on show at Madame Tussauds in Berlin last week was beheaded by anti-fascist protesters within minutes of the doors opening.'A man leapt over the ropes and, with a single whack, the head was off,' said a witness.
A 41-year-old man, a member of Antifa, a radical group opposed to neo-Nazi violence in Germany, was apprehended by police shortly afterwards. He faces charges of criminal damage, assault and trespass.
Sun, 2008-07-06 04:01
#10
Makwa
Interesting. Antifa - is short for 'antifascist/antiracist' apparently. The group hardly looks all that 'radical' to me. They seem to be largely a [url=http://www.antifa.net/content/view/14/28/]web hosting service.[/url]
quote:
Welcome to the Antifa Network
Antifa.net was started in 1988 as a Fidonet bulletin board system in Belgium. In 1995 we started an Internet website (www.knooppunt.be/~afn). In 1996 we changed our name to [url=http://www.antifa.net.]www.antifa.net.[/url] Since then till 2006 we give free webspace to anti-racist and anti-fascist groups and projects.
`Fidonet` bbs, hah. BBSs, gosh that brings back memories. Remote dial up server hosting, telnet, Xmodem protocols, Kermit. Sigh, kids today think they know everything with their fancy interwebs. Perhaps they meant he belongs to one of the groups hosted by Antifa, some of which look a little more lively. Though I still think knocking heads off wax dummies is still kinda stupid, I guess buddy prolly had some kind of antiracist intent or something. Alllrighty then. (looks around, whistling with hands in pockets). Ahem. Well. Do carry on, don't mind me. (scurries off, glaring with intent at something obscure in the distance.)
PS: In retrospect, my whinginess sounds quite out of place, apologies to akaM et al.
[ 06 July 2008: Message edited by: Makwa ]
Sun, 2008-07-06 04:03
#11
Antifa is a generic term used in Europe by militant anti-fascist organizations. The reporter likely misunderstood reports that the beheader is a member of an antifa organization as meaning he belonged to an organization called Antifa.
quote:
The term antifa derives from Antifaschismus, which is German for anti-fascism. It refers to individuals and groups that are dedicated to fighting fascism, and some anti-fascist groups include the word antifa in their name. During the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s, the Soviet Union sponsored various anti-fascist groups, usually using the name antifa. POWs captured by the Soviets during the Eastern Front campaign of the Second World War were encouraged to undertake antifa training.In contemporary times, the term antifa has come to refer to individuals and groups that are dedicated to fighting fascist tendencies. In Germany many antifa groups were formed as a reaction to the rise of right-wing extremism after the reunification and the death of more than hundred people who were killed by right extremists.[1] There is a world-wide network of antifa groups, but they do not constitute a homogeneous movement. Depending on the particular group or individual, the goals may be quite different.
The terms anti-fascist and antifa are almost exclusively used by left-wing groups. For these groups, the struggle against fascist tendencies is usually associated with a broader view that holds society (or aspects of it) responsible, and therefore seeks radical social change. They tend to describe themselves as being opposed to: racism, nationalism, anti-Semitism, sexism, homophobia, and capitalism. Many members of antifa groups consider communism, socialism or anarchism as desirable forms of social organization. According to the German intelligence agency Bundesamt fьr Verfassungsschutz, some antifa groups that are part of the autonomist movement are willing to use violence against right-wing extremists.[2]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa#The_term_antifa]The_term_antifa[/url]
[ 06 July 2008: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]
Sun, 2008-07-06 04:11
#12
Makwa
quote:
POWs captured by the Soviets during the Eastern Front campaign of the Second World War were encouraged to undertake antifa training.
"Encouraged." I bet. Prolly offered cookies or something. Snerk. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
But seriously, thanks for the info aka Mycroft.
[ 06 July 2008: Message edited by: Makwa ]
Sun, 2008-07-06 04:16
#13
quote:
Originally posted by Makwa:
[b]"Encouraged." I bet. Prolly offered cookies or something. Snerk. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]
You should inform yourself about the anti-fascist struggle in Europe of that period, and then maybe your little "jokes" will be less offensive and gratuitous.
Sun, 2008-07-06 05:20
#14
Makwa
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
[b]You should inform yourself about the anti-fascist struggle in Europe of that period, and then maybe your little "jokes" will be less offensive and gratuitous.[/b]
I am aware of WWII thank you very little. I have a father, a mother and uncles who served. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to jump in simply to rub my nose in their pet peeve the minute I dared to make a comment after I have spent some time avoiding doing so.
My joke was about the caginess of the article given the extraordinary violence and destruction of the German/Soviet portion of the conflict. Sorry you didn't like it. Get over yourself unionist, you have little to add to anti-racist discourse other than your own ongoing vendettas, and your constant sniping adds significantly to the atmosphere in this space which drives FN and POC people away in droves.
Do feel free to complain to whomsoever you wish. Perhaps I will get a cut in my extensive stipend and benefits, or will be subsequently denied the privilege of constantly being a target of your wrath.
Sun, 2008-07-06 05:55
#15
Makwa, your very first sentence in this thread was this:
quote:
aka MyCroft, can you please explain what significance this incident has in the context of ' anti-racism news and initiatives '?
You went on to accuse aka Mycroft (not must me - I'm used to it) as follows:
quote:
If this is what people consider worthy of sharing under the rubric of 'anti-racism' without being regularly nudged towards topics by a helpful, thoughtful and gentle moderator such as BCG was, then this forum is in worse shape than I thought.
I'm sorry to hear I'm driving away FN and POC "in droves" from here.
You have opened on average about one thread [b][i]per month[/i][/b] in this forum. You spend the rest of your time waiting and hoping for someone else to initiate discussion. Then, too often, as in this thread, you adopt your superior and supercilious judgmental attitude, saying that a particular thread or post just isn't "good enough" for your ideal AR forum (an ideal that you can't seem to find enough time to lead by example and show us what kind of discussion you'd like to generate).
Until this very post, I have criticized your views. Now I'm criticizing your actions. You have never stopped, for a minute, characterizing me and attacking me, as you did in the post you just made.
For everyone else's information, I expressed my view in an email to you, which you have not responded to. You prefer to respond here - fill your boots. Keep on "moderating" in your inimitable style.
Where the hell is BCG????
Sun, 2008-07-06 07:01
#16
Who are you to demand one moderator over another, unionist? Makwa's initial request may have been debatable in its style but it's true that the anecdotal prank posted was a far cry from the exploration and discussion many of us seem to expect around anti-racism. Grandstanding does chase away folks.
Sun, 2008-07-06 07:08
#17
Makwa
Perhaps BCG became sick and tired of being on the defensive all the time; however that is merely a speculation from my own warped and festering bias. You did perhaps note my followup apology to akaM once I my initial understanding of the issue was clarified, or does that somehow dilute the subsequent glow of righteous indignation?
Thank you for your email. I have read it with interest and it is available for the other moderators to review and act upon.
I suggest that the use of the term 'encouraged' during wartime is worthy of some mockery, whatever the historical context, as it sounds like a term that Malkin et al would use to describe the soliciting of information at Git'mo. You are of course free to disagree, but to bring out the 'offensive and gratuitious' charges seems a little premature to me. I generally like to start out with irritating and insolent and work my way up, so please give me some credit.
Sun, 2008-07-06 07:31
#18
quote:
You have opened on average about one thread per month in this forum. You spend the rest of your time waiting and hoping for someone else to initiate discussion. Then, too often, as in this thread, you adopt your superior and supercilious judgmental attitude, saying that a particular thread or post just isn't "good enough" for your ideal AR forum (an ideal that you can't seem to find enough time to lead by example and show us what kind of discussion you'd like to generate).
If Makwa showed us the type of discussion that he considers appropriate, he would be accused of limiting discussions.
Sun, 2008-07-06 08:23
#19
Makwa
Yes, I know it's thread drift, and I know I should just leave it alone, and I know it's only Wikipedia and I know it's only a few examples out of what may otherwise be stellar examples of wartime human rights considerations, but unionists point about my genuine historical ignorance on some fronts (get it, 'front' - i'm so bad) spiked my curiousity, so here are a few wiki quotes, of which I cannot verify their accuracy, so after this run-on intro:
quote:
The much-venerated monastery, Optina Pustyn, is close by (The town of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozelsk]Kozelsk[/url]). ... After the outbreak of World War II a POW camp was established in the monastery for Polish officers taken captive by the Red Army during the Polish Defensive War of 1939. Between April and May of 1940, the NKVD transferred approximately 4,500 of them to a forest near Katyn, where they were executed in what became known as the Katyn massacre.[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre]Katyn_massacre[/url] also known as the Katyń Forest massacre (Polish: zbrodnia katyńska, 'Katyń crime'), was a mass execution of Polish citizens ordered by Soviet authorities on March 5, 1940.[1] The estimated number of victims is about 22,000, with the most commonly cited number of 21,768.[2]. The victims were murdered in the Katyn forest, the Kalinin (Tver) and Kharkiv prisons and elsewhere.[3] About 8,000 were officers taken prisoner during the 1939 invasion of Poland, the rest being Poles arrested for allegedly being "intelligence agents, gendarmes, spies, saboteurs, landowners, factory owners, lawyers, priests, and officials."[2]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolbnyi_Island]Stolbnyi_Island[/url] is an island on Lake Seliger in the Tver Oblast of Russia, about 10 km north of the town of Ostashkov. During World War II, the monastery was the site of a NKVD camp which held approximately 7,000 Polish prisoners of war who had been taken captive by the Soviet Union as a result of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Almost all of the prisoners were subsequently executed in April 1940 in Kalinin (now Tver) and then buried in mass graves in Mednoye, an act which became known as the Katyn Massacre. Amongst those killed were Polish officers, lawyers, policemen, teachers, doctors, and other members of the intelligentsia.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starobilsk]Starobilsk[/url] is a city near Luhansk in Ukraine. ... During WW2, it was the site of a Soviet prison camp for Polish POWs (Prisoners of War), especially officers. 48 of them died in the camp and were buried in Chmirov cemetery. A very large proportion of the prisoners from the camp were massacred during the Katyn massacre in the Kharkiv NKVD building, later buried in Pyatykhatky forest.
Please note that I do not necessarily support the Wikiuse of terms like 'murder' and 'massacre.' Perhaps a less value-laden term, such as Terry Pratchett's term, 'inhuming', (as opposed to exhuming) would reduce the likelihood of ideological bias. Nonetheless, I think I would generally avoid terms like 'encouraging' and 'cajoling' when describing POW camps. Herein endeth the thread drift. Please do carry on.
[ 06 July 2008: Message edited by: Makwa ]
Sun, 2008-07-06 08:56
#20
This is beneath contempt.
Sun, 2008-07-06 09:02
#21
Cueball
Some caution is justified here. The Katyn forest massacre was essentially perpetrated against Polish officers, and not enlisted men who were deported to camps in the East, and then later released in order to fill the ranks of the Polish expat armies that fought in France on the side of the Allies. The point is that while it is true that those killed were Polish citzens, they were also members of the Polish ruling elite, so the selection of those to be killed was not so much based on their national identity, which the term "citizen" implies but in keeping with Soviet "class anaylsis," against "class enemies." It would seem, among other things, that the purpose of the massacre was to eliminate potential future polish nationalist leadership. It was not simply open season on Poles.
[ 06 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Sun, 2008-07-06 10:14
#22
Makwa
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
[b]This is beneath contempt.[/b]
Oh? Please do tell us why so? I admitted that I knew little of Soviet POW camps: is quoting Wiki-based information a bad thing?
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]while it is true that those killed were Polish citzens, they were also members of the Polish ruling elite, so the selection of those to be killed was not so much based on their national identity, which the term "citizen" implies but in keeping with Soviet "class anaylsis," against "class enemies."[/b]
Ok, so the so-called 'massacres' were not based on ethnicity, per se, and thus may not be most effectively analyzed from an anti-racist perspective. I can understand that. Although that was not my original intent, it does tie the issue back well to a discussion of anti-racism (or perhaps anti-ethnism?). I was merely trying to fill in a little of my defecit of knowledge re: WWII Soviet POW camps, which unionist now calls not merely contemptable, but worse than that. Moreover, I was wondering if my previous lampoonery of the term 'encouragement' could be seen as within the bounds of reasonable satire, despite the risk of irreconcilable thread drift, since it appears to have caused such consternation?
Sun, 2008-07-06 10:38
#23
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
[b]This is beneath contempt.[/b]
unionist, comments like this are spectacularly unhelpful. I see Makwa trying to explain what he meant and you posting a one-liner like that, which doesn't in any way state what your problem with his post is. I mean, basically you're just cursing.
How does that help anything?
Sun, 2008-07-06 10:38
#24
Cueball
The use of the word "encouragement" is definitely what I call Mafia talk. In the original context it is hard to say if the intent is serious, or if the latent quotes and sarcasm which you applied might actually be hidden in the statement as well, but probably not. That said, I would apply a different take on Antifa "training" encouraged or otherwise.
It was probably on the level of a lip-service release requirement, and probably not much more than attending a meeting, and then signing a document. The same was true for the Allied de-nazification campaign that amounted to getting German soldiers to sign a document stating that Germany started the war, and then after that they were free-as-a-bird. It was a formality, in other words.
"Sure we started the war... Hitler was a bad man... can I go home now?"
The point about the nature and purposes of the Katyn massacre was merely a historical note of what may or may not have consequence to the debate between you and Unionist. I can't personally grasp the nature of discussion between you and he. Except that I can see that you guys are angry with each other, so the actual point is a little lost in that, I think.
I personally find this specific piece of information interesting because it indicates that the officials of the Soviet government pursued policies in line with the "ideological" concept of the revolutionary process used to justify the regieme, even when it is quite clear by 1940 that regieme had abandoned is core ideals -- they were applying "class anaylsis." They triaged their captives, and shot the elements of the bougiose, but only deported, and then even released enlisted men, mostly working class and peasant Poles. This is interesting in terms of how power manifests itself. It confirms for me that even raw power does not simply operate free of the ideological concept used to justify it but in fact to a certain extent must conform along the line defined by the ideology, if only for appearances sake in order to generate compliance from officials who carry out its orders, and consent from the public at large.
Even in an extremely repressive police state in wartime, society is not only managed by force. The terror must have a logic, in otherwords, and can not simply be terror for its own sake.
[ 06 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Sun, 2008-07-06 11:57
#25
German POWs were deliberately starved or worked to death b y the Soviets, French, Poles and the Americans.
'Encouraged' at the point of a gun is prob the correct description. And the same happened to the hundreds of thousands of japanese POWs with the russians as well, some 340,000 who never made it home after surrendering.
Sun, 2008-07-06 12:48
#26
Can we save this discussion for when someone rips Stalin's head off of his waxwork figure?
Sun, 2008-07-06 13:14
#27
Cueball
Well. I guess the point that some people might want to make is why Hitler and not Stalin?
Sun, 2008-07-06 18:27
#28
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]Well. I guess the point that some people might want to make is why Hitler and not Stalin?[/b]
I suppose all kinds of wax figurines should have their heads ripped off, come to that. I'm not sure it's a particularly effective political strategy, though.
Sun, 2008-07-06 19:06
#29
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]unionist, comments like this are spectacularly unhelpful. I see Makwa trying to explain what he meant and you posting a one-liner like that, which doesn't in any way state what your problem with his post is. I mean, basically you're just cursing.
How does that help anything?[/b]
Sorry. What was beneath contempt was Makwa responding to this thread - which is about resistance to Hitlerism and its glorification in Europe - by dredging up stories about how the Soviets killed people too. That is beneath contempt. Sorry if you don't understand, Michelle. Lagatta did, as did others. I don't need to explain myself on matters which are obvious.
Sun, 2008-07-06 19:10
#30
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:
[b]German POWs were deliberately starved or worked to death b y the Soviets, French, Poles and the Americans.[/b]
Scandalous.
quote:
[b]'Encouraged' at the point of a gun is prob the correct description. And the same happened to the hundreds of thousands of japanese POWs with the russians as well, some 340,000 who never made it home after surrendering.[/b]
Boo hoo.
Sun, 2008-07-06 19:36
#31
Makwa
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
[b]Scandalous. Boo hoo.[/b]
Now there's a Malkinesque quip for posterity, in reference to the alleged mass killing of thousands of Germans and Japanese prisoners of war. Way to ratchet up the anti-racist tone there, unionist.
Sun, 2008-07-06 19:47
#32
quote:
Originally posted by Makwa:
[b]Now there's a Malkinesque quip for posterity, in reference to the alleged mass killing of thousands of Germans and Japanese prisoners of war. Way to ratchet up the anti-racist tone there, unionist.[/b]
Yeah, let's have a thread about all the poor white people that have been killed by minority muggers in the big cities. And about the white women carried off and violated by the "Indians". And how about some gruesome stories of how U.S. bomber pilots were tortured by the evil Vietnamese who captured them. Oh, maybe some memorial pieces about each U.S. soldier that gloriously falls in Iraq to the guns and roadside bombs of the "terrorists".
That's about on a par with a thread that starts with a story of an anti-Nazi act, and then non-stop ridicule by you before I ever posted to this thread, followed by a chorus of "oh, the Allies murdered lots of Nazi soldiers too, so let's not forget that, shall we?".
Have you ever chanced to visit pro-Hitler sites? Where they talk about how Germany was mistreated during the war? No, I don't go there either. I try to frequent sites where we don't have to explain, again, from square one, that Nazism and Japanese militarism were evil and that it was a glorious thing that the people of the world united to destroy them.
Babble is one such site. Isn't it?
Sun, 2008-07-06 20:12
#33
Makwa
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
[b]Yeah, let's have a thread about all the poor white people that have been killed by minority muggers in the big cities. And about the white women carried off and violated by the "Indians". And how about some gruesome stories of how U.S. bomber pilots were tortured by the evil Vietnamese who captured them. Oh, maybe some memorial pieces about each U.S. soldier that gloriously falls in Iraq to the guns and roadside bombs of the "terrorists".[/b]
Ironic racism is discouraged here unionist, and I would ask that you please refrain from doing so further.
I have already admitted to the original poster my regret of misreading the meaning behind his original posting and submitted my apologies, and I don't need you to wipe my nose it it.
My little internet perusal of Soviet WWII camps was in response to your accurate chiding that my knowledge was indeed lacking. I am genuinely sorry if that action offended you.
I see nothing wrong with visiting reactionary and even racist sites to better understand their so-called reasoning, it's one approach to trying to learn more about those who think differently than ourselves.
unionist, please forgive me for sounding overly critical, but it seems to me that your overall approach in this thread is somewhat needlessly aggressive, primarily in reaction to what you think i may mean. I would implore you to try to try to focus more on anti-racist analysis and issues, please. If in my responses to you have been overly caustic and defensive, I regret it, and shall try to be more reasonable in the future.
In aside:
I should really try not to drag this out further, lest we have yet another anti-racist thread largely devoted to a scrap betwixt myself and unionist. I suspect that if we were to get beyond the back and forth confrontational jargon, we would find much common ground.
Moreover, unionist has brought forth to me some valuable suggestions about how to make this space a more productive and positive space, and I am consulting with the other mods and considering how best to implement these and other suggestions. A thread shall follow at some point to address this.
Thanks for listening, you've been wonderful. Please come back, and don't forget to tip the (web) server.
Sun, 2008-07-06 20:32
#34
quote:
Originally posted by Makwa:
[b]Ironic racism is discouraged here unionist, and I would ask that you please refrain from doing so further. [/b]
It's not "ironic racism". These are analogies - examples - parallels - of posts weeping about how the German and Japanese soldiers suffered during WWII. They are examples of turning persecutors into victims. They are a plea to you and others. If you find those kinds of role reversals offensive, why wouldn't you find it offensive, in a thread about glorification of Hitler and the resistance to that, to talk about how Hitler's murderers "suffered also"??
quote:
[b]I have already admitted to the original poster my regret of misreading the meaning behind his original posting and submitted my apologies, and I don't need you to wipe my nose it it. [/b]
That's fine. I'm glad you apologized. I guess the memory of other threads - where some question whether Nazism was racist - is still fresh. Also, posters saying that my call to "suppress" Nazis was the same as the Nazi ideology and practice of genocide. If you don't remember those threads (in which you were a participant), I will be glad to provide the links. Think February 2008.
quote:
[b]My little internet perusal of Soviet WWII camps was in response to your accurate chiding that my knowledge was indeed lacking. I am genuinely sorry if that action offended you. [/b]
I accept your apology. My chiding you about your knowledge was not intended to induce thread drift about how the poor German and Japanese soldiers suffered during WWII. I'm still having a hard time typing those words without gagging.
quote:
[b]I suspect that if we were to get beyond the back and forth confrontational jargon, we would find much common ground.[/b]
I agree. Please accept this small suggestion:
[b][i]Read your first four posts in this thread. Note that I had not yet said one word. Tell me what those posts were all about, if not "confrontational jargon".[/i][/b]
You can frame the problem as being "unionist" if you like, but that's not what this thread and others show. There's a real-life problem here which we all share.
You say you and the other mods are talking about an approach. If that approach amounts to limiting the definition of "anti-racism" in any way, please have that discussion in front of the whole community here. That way, your conclusions will have a better chance of achieving some principled consensus among babblers.
Sun, 2008-07-06 20:45
#35
Makwa
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
[b]It's not "ironic racism". These are analogies - examples - parallels - of posts weeping about how the German and Japanese soldiers suffered during WWII. They are examples of turning persecutors into victims. [/b]
Let me be very clear unionist. The phrase "white women being violated by indians" is not analogous to a description of alleged mistreatment of German soldiers in allied POW camps. It is a racialized slur, and you [b]may not[/b] repeat similar comments without sanction. Further instances of this will result in a 24 hour rescinding of posting privileges.
And on that high note, I realize that this thread has gone so completely down the toilet, that there is no point in trying to resuscitate it, to use a particularly ugly mixed metaphor.
Apologies to aka Mycroft for my role in trashing what could have been an especially lively discussion.
You know, I've learned something today.
PS: Just so this thread doesn't end on a completely gloomy note, here is a youtubie of some gratuitously cute kitties:
[ 06 July 2008: Message edited by: Makwa ]