Relationship Wisdom or Sexist Drivel?

So Sven the idea that language can be hurtful and racist is an absurd argument? One thing for sure it is obviously not registering in your head. But then you probably never had people use your general characteristics as synonyms for bad and evil.

Why do you want to ride in on your white horse to slay any attempt to change our language into something respectful and inclusive. Would you rather we all reverted to the good old days when good old boys could sully anyone that didn't look like them.

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
[b]So Sven the idea that language can be hurtful and racist is an absurd argument? One thing for sure it is obviously not registering in your head. But then you probably never had people use your general characteristics as synonyms for bad and evil.

Why do you want to ride in on your white horse to slay any attempt to change our language into something respectful and inclusive. Would you rather we all reverted to the good old days when good old boys could sully anyone that didn't look like them.[/b]

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I'll answer that with the following:

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Originally posted by Sven:
[b]Seriously, kropotkin1951, should people avoid using the word "denigrate" but continue to use the word "coloured"?

If so, what is the logic of such an admonition?[/b]

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Originally posted by remind:
[b]Just looked up the etymology, to make certain my perception of "denigare" as being the root, was the correct one. It is, "denigare's" root is [i]niger[/i] and is an adjective meaning literally, negro. As well, [i]ni[/i] means underneath, or down. So it seems, in historical language context it was created as a racial slurr.[/b]

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Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, “denigrate”:

Origin: 1520–30; Latin dйnigrātus (ptp. of dйnigrāre to blacken), equiv. to dй- DE- + nigr(āre) to make black + -ātus -ATE.

According to the American Heritage Dictionary:

Latin dēnigrāre, dēnigrāt-, to blacken, defame : dē-, de- + niger, nigr-, black; see nekw-t- in Indo-European roots.

And, according to the Online Etymology Dictionary:

1526, from L. denigratus, pp. of denigrare "to blacken, defame," from de- "completely" + nigr-, stem of niger "black," of unknown origin.

The etymology of "denigrate" makes no reference to people of African orgin.

So Sven if blacken simply means to defame what does whiten mean? Black is bad and the man with the white skin and hat is good and righteous. I get the meaning and I don't like the usage, anymore than I like the usage of most sexist terms. I try to use respectful language that IMO is neither foolish or absurd.

Sven when you show that you have 5% of the talent of the late great Carlin I'll cut you some slack. I mean Holy Fuck Batman don't you think context means anything?

Sven, your reasoning is false on both counts. The word colour in your sentence isn't used in a negative sense by itself since you have to preface it with ugly to make your (pathetic) point. As for your second point, you changed horses in mid-stream. Many words can be used to "label people of African origins" and very few of them are pejorative. I don't think that the noun "colour" makes that grade, as "denigrate" clearly does, for the reason pointed out in the definition you quoted.
Indeed, exploring the relationship of negativity with blackness could take us way earlier than the slavery of 400 years back. When someone was black-balled (excluded) in ancient Greece, that use of the colour black probably referred to the common use of African slaves in this "birthplace of democracy," that pillaged African peoples.

[ 05 September 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

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Are you saying that every word that, etymologically, is rooted with the concept of "black" should be avoided if the word is used in a negative context?

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If the word itself is what carries the negative charge, yes. Otherwise, saying someting like "The Black Hawks really blew it yesterday" clearly is no problem... unless you're talking to a fan. And of course, a non-metaphoric usage ("My fingernail is turning black") is painful but OK.

[ 05 September 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

Back-edited: I don't think so, because "a black eye" is a real natural occurence, it's not the word "black" adding a pejorative tinge to the word "eye," as would the expression "his speech was a black mark on" or "blackened" his party's reputation". See the distinction? Or do you want to go on pretending you don't?

[ 05 September 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
[b]When someone was black-balled (excluded) in ancient Greece, that use of the colour black probably referred to the common use of African slaves in this "birthplace of democracy," that pillaged African peoples.[/b]

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Instead of speculating about where words "probably" came from, you should do your homework.

The Greeks never "black-balled" anybody. That was invented centuries later, and it is a reference to an actual black ball. Nothing metaphorical about it at all.

And the vast majority of slaves in ancient Greece where white Europeans.

Not that slavery has anything to do with it.

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
[b]The word doesn't have to refer to people of African origins to associate blackness with defamation, degradation. Which in a racist society such as ours is adding insult to injury and ought to be avoided by people who care to be part of the solution.[/b]

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According to my Houghton Mifflin etymology source, niger, which is denigare's root, is in fact an adjective directly referenced to a state of "something" being black.

Going to look at Merriam Webster on line and see what they say...

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Main Entry: den·i·grate
Pronunciation: \ˈde-ni-ˌgrāt\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): den·i·grat·ed; den·i·grat·ing
Etymology: Latin denigratus, past participle of denigrare, from de- + nigrare to blacken, from nigr-, niger black

Date: 1526

1 : to attack the reputation of : defame
2 : to deny the importance or validity of : belittle

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Perhaps we are actually close to the origins of the term "negro", as niger's roots lay in both Latin and Sanskrit.

What about: "You can only purchase those items on the black market"?

Pejorative use of black stones in ancient Mediterranean cultures:

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Black and white stones were used in Greek culture in a voting system - a white stone for "yes", a black stone for "no". (Maggi Dawn, « Theology, Life and Faith in the U.K. ». [url=http://maggidawn.typepad.com/maggidawn/2006/06/white_stone.html]http://m... )

An explanation of a variant idiom, ‘albo lapillo notare diem’ (‘to mark the day with a white stone’), links Scott’s first and second (rejected) interpretations (Nil Desperandum: A Dictionary of Latin Tags and Useful Phrases, Eugene Ehrlich, BCA, 1992, p35):
For the Romans, white was the symbol of happiness, black of misfortune. Thus, in a trial a vote for acquittal was cast with a white stone, for condemnation a black one; a happy day was marked with a white stone, an unhappy day with a black one. The latter procedure was this: at the end of each day, a Roman — according to Pliny the Younger, this superstitious practice dated back to the Thracians — would judge whether the day had been happy or unhappy. Once decided, the Roman would drop a pebble of the appropriate colour into an urn, so at the end of the month he could empty the urn and be able to look back over the month past.
(http://jacketmagazine.com/24/keery.html)

Apostle Paul often wrote about this issue. (1 Cor. 8:1-12; 10:14-33)
(…)
--"To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it."
(…)

(2.) "I will also give him a white stone"--a widely used symbol for victory or special privilege, here referring to an eternal reward and acceptance by God.

--White stone was mined at Pergamum and was a commercial product. Jesus knew exactly what He was saying when He said this in His letter.

--Black and White stones were used by juries in courts. If they believed that a person was guilty, they symbolized this by offering their black stone. If they believed they were innocent, they would offer their white stone. The White stone therefore may speak of our innocent status before God once we are forgiven. (…)

--They were given to a man freed from slavery as proof that he had been made a citizen of the province. The white stone then speaks of our citizenship of heaven. (…) (http://www.lifepointenazarene.org/Lifepointe/message.aspx?id=23)

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
[b]Pejorative use of black stones in ancient Mediterranean cultures:[/b]

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That's all very well and good, Marty, but where does it say anything about "blackballed"?

The term [b]"sordid"[/b] (from the Online Etymology Dictionary):

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[b]1584, "festering," from L. sordidus "dirty," from sordere "be dirty, be shabby," related to sordes "dirt," from PIE base *swordo- "black, dirty" (cf. Goth. swarts, O.E. sweart "black"). Sense of "foul, low, mean" first recorded 1611.[/b]

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Just like "melancholy" and "denigrate", "sordid" has a negative meaning [b][i]and[/b][/i] it's rooted in the word "black".

Avoid "sordid" from now on, please.

The word [b]"necromancy"[/b], as remind kindly pointed out with regard to the word "denigrate", is rooted in "niger":

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[b]c.1300, "divination by communication with the dead," from O.Fr. nygromancie, from M.L. nigromantia (1212), from L. necromantia "divination from an exhumed corpse," from Gk. nekromanteia, from nekros "dead body" (see necro-) + manteia "divination, oracle," from manteuesthai "to prophesy," from mantis "prophet" (see mania). Spelling infl. in M.L. by niger "black," on notion of "black arts." Modern spelling is c.1550 from attempts to correct M.E. nygromauncy.[/b]

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Please avoid using "necromancy".

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Originally posted by remind:
[b]And Sven, if you were really interested in the concept, use and actual meanings of words from how they were derived, it could've been done, intellectually, and enlightingly. But apparently both of those scopes are beyond you, and whatever motives you may have.[/b]

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I'm just pointing out how silly it is to avoid the word [b]"denigrate"[/b] because of its etymology.

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Originally posted by remind:
[b]OMG, martin good catch, it is so, so easy, not to see/perceive latent and entrenched sexism and racism, in our thought patterns and common word usage.

Well, that word will now be struck from my vocabulary! [img]redface.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]

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And, you couldn't stop there cuz you'd also have to get rid of whole lot of other words, like [b]"melancholy"[/b] and [b]"sordid"[/b] (see above), because the same "logic" applies to those words as well.

[ 05 September 2008: Message edited by: Sven ]

I think I can live with the pejorative character of the word "Svengali"... [img]tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

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Originally posted by remind:
[b]If the etymological meaning is rooted in negative stereotypes and biased meanings, against peoples, while being for others, that have been carried forward with a word, it should be discouraged in its use, until it falls into disuse. [/b]

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I agree with that. Hence, I agree that the "N word" should not be used because the word itself was used as a racist term.

Denigrate, however, is not one of them. Ditto for sordid, melanoma, and melancholy (and niggardly, for that matter). None of those words, as far as I know, has a history of being based on racism or sexism. The worst people can say about those words is that they are (1) words with negative denotations and (2) rooted in the word "black").

It's a hell of a stretch to call them racist words.

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Originally posted by Sven:
[b]Denigrate, however, is not one of them. [/b]

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Actually, upon investigating further denigrate is one of them. As is the term "thug".

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[b] Ditto for sordid, melanoma, and melancholy [/b]

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Now, can't make a comment on those words, as I did not even bother with any of posts, where you were busily addressing yourself. Didn't want to interupt your own little personal strawman building session, with yourself, and destroy the fun you would have by kicking them down to your own satisfaction. [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]

However, I will say, I dislike the use of melancholy because of the negative way it was used mainly for women, historically.

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[b](and niggardly, for that matter).[/b]

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You may be correct about its roots, but you are not correct about its recent historical usage and what it implied racially.

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[b]None of those words, as far as I know, has a history of being based on racism or sexism. [/b]

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I pointed out 3 of them that had. And come to think of it, I kinda dislike sordid too, as it has been used often, perhaps too often, to define women's perceived bad actions. Joyce was pethaps the most prominent historical exception to that though. He loved to use it to describe men.

Oh, and the root words for melenoma, and melancholy come from a different root word for black, than does denigrate. As I see you forgot to mention that.

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[b]The worst people can say about those words is that they are (1) words with negative denotations[/b]

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Well, I think that is a fairly significant state of being that would suggest, quite reasonably in fact, that they need to fall into disuse. The very fact that they have commonly understood negative denotations means they are an effective tool of patriarchy, eh?!

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[b]and (2) rooted in the word "black").[/b]

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The "negative denotation" lies in the root words, or not in the root words, or current common usage.

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[b]It's a hell of a stretch to call them racist words.[/b]

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Damn, and now I have to go look up the root for sordid to see if it has a racist root besides its sexist use.

Yep, it does have racist roots, and come to think of it, it has classist implications, as well, as sexist. Though, as point of interest, its racist root word is different than denigrate, too.

All in all, I think melanoma, is the only word that can be salvaged. And by your owm admission, there is "negative denotation" attached to all it appears, except melanoma.

So....why would we want to keep alive and in use words that are used by white patriarchy to re-enforce it?

[ 05 September 2008: Message edited by: remind ]

No, let's take "niggardly" and why you seem to think you have the privilege to keep using it.

Fucking prick.

Can't answer my question, EH?

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Originally posted by remind:
[b]fffft, thwffft, ugh, had to pick that straw out it is getting everywhere.

Doesn't matter if 1000 people do not recognize the word for what it is, another 1000 will.

The use of sorid re-enforces a classist notion, with rascist roots and it has historically and currently been used as a "negative denotation" against women's actions. A societal control mechanism, and most societal control mechanisms are there to re-enforce patriarchy, and patriarchy, as we know it, is a white male construct, to benefit mainly white males. until such "loaded" terms fall into disuse, they will impact upon peoples in a unnecessary and negative way.

But I know you know this Sven, just as you know most people do not recognize such loaded terms for what they are, and it appears you really do not like them to know. Notwithstanding of course, is the evidence of this contained in the fact you stated you knew their "negative denotations".

That you believe that the "negative denotations" they have, should not mean they should fall into disuse, says much.[/b]

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Thanks remind.

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Originally posted by Sven:
[b]

Based on the Hindi word "thag" (meaning rogue or cheat).[/b]

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You know this is the 21st century, right? And we use modern definitions, not etymology?

You do, right?

For example, remind:

 The sordid speeches at the RNC convention made me ill with their lies and hypocrisy.

 The sordid conditions the tenants had to endure at the hands of their slumlord are outrageous.

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
[b]If the word itself is what carries the negative charge, yes. Otherwise, saying someting like "The Black Hawks really blew it yesterday" clearly is no problem... unless you're talking to a fan.
[ 05 September 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ][/b]

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Or a Red Indian?

As for "niggardly," despite its sounding like a familiar racial slur, it has a nice Old Norse etymology that has nothing whatsoever to do with that horrible word with which it assonates.

One may be "progressive" and well-intentioned in opposing its use, but that doesn't make one any less dense.

[ 05 September 2008: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]