quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:
[b]Iran is a tiny country, Sven. Why do you see them as so much more evil than any other country in the world?Face it, you're freaking out over nothing here. And you know it.[/b]
I agree that Iran poses zero threat to the USA via ballistic missiles. My concern is with Iran developing portable nukes...particularly given their past history of support for sectarian nutbars.
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
[b]particularly given their past history of support for sectarian nutbars.[/b]
I knew they were responsible for Dubya. Nuke 'em.
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
[b]I agree that Iran poses zero threat to the USA via ballistic missiles. My concern is with Iran developing portable nukes...particularly given their past history of support for sectarian nutbars.[/b]
Without sounding completely moranic, please tell us which nutbars you have in mind?
quote:
The way to resolve this is for the US to promise never to attack Iran again.
I thought Sven's comments took the brass ring for sheer inanity, but this is a pretty close contender. Who in the world would be naive enough to believe them?
Ok, I should've said "promise it and actually MEAN it".
With something in writing.
Then again, it's not likely that my country's leaders would actually try something that sensible, no matter who they were.
quote:
My concern is with Iran developing portable nukes...particularly given their past history of support for sectarian nutbars.
Why would they do this? Why would they spend billions to develop this kind of technology just to hand it over to someone or some group over which they have no control? That is the very definition of stupidity. The fact that you'd believe this sort of infantile nonsense is kinda sad.
I realize that Americans can't stop projecting onto others the most base and vile motives that they themselves possess. Americans did hand over Stinger missiles to the Mujahadin in Afghanistan. They continue to give away F-16s, tanks, smart bombs, cluster bombs, DU munitions, and sophisticated communications and intelligence systems, and very likely nuclear technology to the sectarian nutbars in Israel. But then, the American national security state is completely suicidal. The Iranian leadership has thus far shown no likewise disposition towards such insanity.
The utter rout of the US-trained and equipped Georgian militarist regime has had some interesting consequences that relate to Iran, according to some commentators.
It seems that US plans to bomb Iran, on whatever spurious pretext, were to have taken place partly from Georgian US military bases. Such bases would be close to Iran, with mountain cover, and able to quickly deliver a rain of death. With the aggressive mission in South Ossetia rebuffed, the Georgian military in a shambles, and Saakashvili turned into a political corpse, these Georgian bases for an attack on Iran are out the window.
There are other US client states in the region, of course. But Georgia's geostrategic location made it an excellent cornerstone of an attack on Iran.
Tough shit, Uncle Sam.
[url=http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/30312]US to invade Iran?[/url]
quote:
A few weeks ago the Russian newspaper Izvestia, a well-known and authoritive daily published nationwide and abroad, came forward with something that would have been looked upon as a conspiracy theory if published by a tabloid.The paper suggested that by attacking South Ossetia, the Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili had badly damaged a planned U.S. military operation against Iran. In the newspaper's opinion Georgia was supposed to play the role of another "unsinkable aircraft carrier" for the U.S., i.e. an operational and tactical base for U.S.
aircraft that would be making bombing raids into Iran. Something akin to what Thailand was in the Vietnam war....Having read the story in Izvestia I decided to try to figure out the extent of improbability and impossibility of the assumptions. As I was doing that, I remembered that early in August CNN had started showing U.S. generals who cried for more troops and hardware for Afghanistan which, in their opinion, was rapidly becoming a more intensive conflict than Iraq.
Shortly after that, a phone call came from a college friend who had just come back from Kandahar in Afghanistan, where he had seen American battle tanks being unloaded from a Ukrainian-registered Antonov-124 "Ruslan", the heaviest and largest cargo airplane in the world. The friend asked if I had any idea what tanks would be good for in Afghanistan, and I said I didn't. It's an established fact from the Soviet war in Afghanistan that tanks are no good for most of the country's mountainous territory. They are good for flatlands, and the main body of flat land in the region is right across the border in Iran.
The author goes on:
quote:
Today the U.S. media reported that there had been a leak from the Pentagon about a secret Presidential order in which President Bush authorized his military (most of which is currently on Afghan soil) to conduct operations in Pakistan without the necessity for informing the Pakistani government. The U.S. military in Afghanistan - or shall we say in the whole region neighboring Iran - is getting a freer hand by the day. And it is getting more and more hardware to play with.
[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
It's not hard to guess what spurred the opening post story, with all the US candidates outdoing each other in demonstrating loyalty to AIPAC.
Now, just a little nudge from Israeli interests by way of the press during the US election period and any mean-spirited holding-out of "needed" US weaponry is wafted away.
et voila!
quote:
U.S. to sell IAF smart bombs for heavily fortified targets
By Aluf Benn and Amos HarelDespite reservations in Washington regarding a possible Israeli strike on Iran, the American administration will supply Israel with sophisticated weapons for heavily fortified targets, the U.S. administration announced.
The U.S. Department of Defense announced it would sell the Israel Air Force 1,000 new smart bombs, rumored to significantly enhance the IAF's military capabilities. The deal was approved amid public and secret messages from Washington, with the Americans expressing their reservations about a possible Israeli strike against the Islamic Republic's suspected nuclear sites.
The Pentagon's announcement, which came on Friday, said the U.S. will provide Israel with 1,000 units of Guided Bomb Unit-39 (GBU-39) - a special weapon developed for penetrating fortified facilities located deep underground....
[url=http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1020702.html]Haaretz[/url]
If those Zionists don't watch it, the only place Hebrew will be spoken is in Hell.
Uh, what?
Al, you at the very least phrased that poorly. No matter the actions of Israel, Jewish people (the speakers of Hebrew) can no more be assigned collective responsibility than can Moslems for the actions of Al-Queda.
Indeed.
Settle down; I'm just using "Bull" Halsey's words, but with a different language in question.
Never fear, the Zionists are on the right track:
[url=http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3596197,00.html]IDF discovers leftists in West Bank village [/url]
quote:
An IDF force which raided the West Bank village of Asira al-Kabaliya near the settlement of Yitzhar on Saturday night, apparently as part of an operation for the arrest of wanted Palestinians, was surprised to discover a group of left-wing activists in one of the houses.
Keep repeating: "A light unto nations, a light unto nations, a light unto...."
al-Qa'bong, it was a stupid racist jingoistic remark when Admiral Halsey said it, and it hasn't improved with age. Cut it out. Maybe edit it out too.
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
[b]If those Zionists don't watch it, the only place Hebrew will be spoken is in Hell.[/b]
The mindset that permits one to condemn an entire nationality to hell is one of the drivers of the Mideast conflict.
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
[b]The mindset that permits one to condemn an entire nationality to hell is one of the drivers of the Mideast conflict.[/b]
It's also one of the drivers of genocide.
Thanks, oldgoat.
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
[b]Settle down; I'm just using "Bull" Halsey's words, but with a different language in question.[/b]
Paraphrasing a racist comment does not lessen the racism. That line is actually cut in modern releases of Tora! Tora! Tora! Why do you think that is?
"The mindset that permits one to condemn an entire nationality to hell ..." yes exactly - just look how the evil US and how they spread propaganda - Japan was the aggressor in WWII, Iran is a theocracy ??? Everyone knows that the USA and their former big brother England and their current Zionist masters are the only aggresive countries with imperialist dreams - witness the mass demonstrations in the US burning Iranian flags, harrassing muslims and Iranian ex-pats and calling for the destuction of Iran!!!
Wake up Sven - America and their Zionist masters are the sole danger to the world. Have been and always will be. When the Evil Empire falls we will finally have eternal world peace.
Your shtick is well beyond tiresome.
Are you denying that the USSA and the zionists are behind all the violence we see around the world, while a peaceful democratic Iran is presented as a threat.
quote:
Originally posted by Sarcastro:
[b]Are you denying that the USSA and the zionists are behind all the violence we see around the world, while a peaceful democratic Iran is presented as a threat.[/b]
That is thinly veiled and I find it extremely troubling. Imperialism is the problem and IMO it appears to be far more driven by Xian imperialists than by any other religious nut bars. But frankly I think the religion of the neo-cons is a sideshow to the real imperialistic drive to control the world on behalf of the corporate bosses they are both in awe of and collusion with.
quote:
Originally posted by Sarcastro:
[b]Are you denying that the USSA and the zionists are behind all the violence we see around the world, while a peaceful democratic Iran is presented as a threat.[/b]
Attempts at sarcasm unbacked by a coherent argument is cowardly hectoring without taking responsibility for covert fallacies. If you are incapable of an argument, troll elsewhere.
pardon my nom de plume, I realize it may cause you to question my sincerity.
I hardly see how my statement differs from FM's views for one example.
All the violence in the world comes from the USSA and the illegal zionist occupier. Other acts of violence blamed on the oppressed are actually covert actions by CIA or Mossad agents and even if acts of violence are proven to have been committed by oppressed groups - the weaponry has manufactured and sold by the USSA or the Zionist entity - so all the world's violence is by the bloody hands of Evil America.
Why are you here?
quote:
Originally posted by Sarcastro:
[b]
I hardly see how my statement differs from FM's views for one example.
[/b]
Yeah, my mistake, how could I ever suggest that someone who puts words in the mouth of FM (who isn't even posting on this thread) is a troll and something less than brave.
I enjoy the smell of justice in the morning.
Sarcastro, your repeated use of the phrase "Zionist masters" is anti-semitic invective. Goodbye.
quote:
Originally posted by oldgoat:
[b]al-Qa'bong, it was a stupid racist jingoistic remark when Admiral Halsey said it, and it hasn't improved with age. Cut it out. Maybe edit it out too.[/b]
I guess you don't like the "Those who forget their history are doomed to yadda yadda yadda" irony of the comment.
quote:
That line is actually cut in modern releases of Tora! Tora! Tora! Why do you think that is?
It's Hollywood, where marketing will always triumph over historical accuracy.
Further background to the agreed US "selling" [ie. purchased with US taxpayers money] Israel the updated bunker buster bombs is in this Guardian article which suggests reasons why the US is not currently supporting a strike.
Though not in the article, it signals a temporary swing to the so-called "realists" over the neoconservatives in Washington. This US position is not likely to change soon with the current extreme fragility of the US-world financial system--though all bets are off if the irascible dimwit McCain and Armageddon-monger Palin get in.
quote:
Israel Asked US for Green Light to Bomb Nuclear Sites in Iran
US president told Israeli prime minister he would not back attack on Iran, senior European diplomatic sources tell Guardian
Published on Friday, September 26, 2008 by the Guardian/UKby Jonathan Steele
Israel gave serious thought this spring to launching a military strike on Iran's nuclear sites but was told by President George W Bush that he would not support it and did not expect to revise that view for the rest of his presidency, senior European diplomatic sources have told the Guardian.
[....]
Bush's decision to refuse to offer any support for a strike on Iran appeared to be based on two factors, the sources said. One was US concern over Iran's likely retaliation, which would probably include a wave of attacks on US military and other personnel in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as on shipping in the Persian Gulf.The other was US anxiety that Israel would not succeed in disabling Iran's nuclear facilities in a single assault even with the use of dozens of aircraft. It could not mount a series of attacks over several days without risking full-scale war. So the benefits would not outweigh the costs.
[....]
The US announced two weeks ago that it would sell [ie. bought with US taxpayers dollars] Israel 1,000 bunker-busting bombs. The move was interpreted by some analysts as a consolation prize for Israel after Bush told Olmert of his opposition to an attack on Iran. But it could also enhance Israel's attack options in case the next US president revives the military option...
[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/25/iran.israelandthepalestinian... Guardian[/url]
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
[b]Keep repeating: "A light unto nations, a light unto nations, a light unto...."[/b]
al Qabong, youve brought this up more than once, and it's not necessary for your otherwise insightful comments on Israel.
The biblical phrase "light unto all nations" is generally interpreted as Jews being the carriers of the old testament, and not an endorsement of Jews as upholding moral behaviour. On the contrary, the bible describes the Jewish people as normally disobedient and consistently unworthy of carrying God's laws. If you would like to read them, many rabbinical interpretations describe this role and other concepts like "chosenness" as primarily owing to chance, God's frustration or both. These are theological concepts, and have been debated and written about by rabbis for centuries, they are not supremacist axioms. Most religions have things like this.
Unfortunately, these concepts like "lights unto all nations" or a "chosen people", have been isolated through selective quotation and used as regular staples in accusations of Jewish supremacy, disloyalty to anyone except themselves, etc. I am not accusing you of doing this, but please save it for a thread about historic landmarks in rabbinical commentary since it's possible to criticize the apartheid in Israel and Palestine without it, and because it merely fuels the criticism=antisemitism rhetoric.
Anytime someone brings up the idea of a "chosen people" (Mormons did this, too, in the 1800s, PS, thanks to the ravings of that nut Joseph Smith), I get nervous.
quote:
The biblical phrase "light unto all nations" is generally interpreted as Jews being the carriers of the old testament, and not an endorsement of Jews as upholding moral behaviour.
I don't know from the Old Testament, and most of what I know about Jews is what I hear in my Benny Goodman records.
My use of the term, "light unto nations" is a reference to Israeli propaganda, going back to the founding of the State of Israel, such as this:
quote:
Ben-Gurion envisaged an Israel that would be, firstly, ‘a light unto nations’;
secondly, an ethical, moral and democratic leader;and thirdly, an Israel that would be at peace. It is Ben-Gurion’s vision that has set the far-reaching parameters for Israel.
[url=http://canberra.mfa.gov.il/mfm/web/main/document.asp?DocumentID=127289&M... Israeli Government's Official Website[/url]
quote:
I don't know from the Old Testament, and most of what I know about Jews is what I hear in my Benny Goodman records.
I think that's a pretty glib response.
If you are trying to say that Israeli politicians have co-opted the Jewish religion to make political arguments, then you are right, and they frequently do. But I'm asking you not to.
quote:
If you are trying to say that Israeli politicians have co-opted the Jewish religion to make political arguments
I'm not saying anything of the sort. I don't know enough about the Jewish religion to make such clever connexions.
This may come as a surprise to you, but Judaism doesn't have anything to do with most people's opposition to Zionism.
Nevermind.
[ 27 September 2008: Message edited by: just one of the concerned ]
I saw a news article about Georgia providing a base for Israel, and one of the objectives of the Russian military action in Georgia was to disable the hardware on that base. That would mean Russian soldiers attacking Israeli airplanes sitting on the ground.
I have the impression that overall the US is hyper-cooperative with Israel.
I agree.
On Iran, existing nuclear powers must move first
http://www.straight.com/article-238535/gwynne-dyer-iran-existing-nuclear...
Top US Lawmakers Vow Tough Action on Iran
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23465.htm
"Top US lawmakers vowed tough action on Iran Thursday as tensions mounted ahead of a late September deadline for negotiations and speculation Israel may launch a pre-emptive strike.."
Clock Ticking for Iran as Israel Appears Ready for Strike
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1113816.html
"In the past few weeks alone, an editorial in The Wall Street Journal warned the president that the United States must put a quick halt to the Iranian nuclear program, because otherwise Israel will bomb the facilities.."
Malick is suing the Dimona facility for a total of NIS 1.8 million in compensation. According to the suit, Malick was "asked by his superiors to take part in an experiment on five workers. In the framework of the experiment, Mr. Malick and the other workers drank uranium. The experiment was conducted without medical supervision and no explanation was given as to the health risks to participants. Mr. Malick, out of fear for his livelihood and future in the department, agreed to the demand that he participate."
The old good cop - bad cop routine...
I couldn't resist bumping this thread because of the absurd title!
-------
[url=http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/01/31-3]US Media Gobble Up US/Israel Case Against Iran[/url]
Sarcastro, your repeated use of the phrase "Zionist masters" is anti-semitic invective. Goodbye.
There were plenty of good reasons to ban that jerk's sorry ass, but this is not one of them.
As mainstream media outlets rushed to post the dramatic headlines relating to Clapper's testimony (examples: here, here, and here), Glenn Greenwald, citing Greg Miller's piece in the Washington Post and a new story about Al Qaeda in Iran by Foreign Affairs magazine, asked at Salon.com if "there's anyone doubting that there is a concerted media-aided fear-mongering campaign aimed at Iran"?
And not only that, Ahmadinejad is a conspiracy theorist. That has to be worth a good shellacking courtesy of Gladio Inc.
