Presidential Debate 2

"My friends..."

It seemed to me that McCain's strategy tonight was to sow doubts about Obama on every issue. I don't know how effective this will be. Expect Sarah Palin tomorrow to be gushing all over: "My man won the debate!". [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

There could be a lot of undecideds who were swayed by McCain in the general population - never underestimate the appeal to the lowest common denominator in an American election. I think McCain managed to make Obama look green in a couple of areas, but Obama made some clever counters. I liked Obama's line "It appears a wheel just came off the Straight Talk Express" about halfway through the debate. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

I was watching the debate with some fellow astronomers, and there was mass cringing in the room when John McCain started attacking the Adler Planetarium in Chicago as an example of government waste.

For those not up to speed, apparently Obama supported spending $3 million to upgrade the projector at the Adler planetarium in some bill, this projector had not been replaced in many decades. McCain has been mentioning this as an example of the waste which is holding America back financially and causing the national debt.

Two questions floated in my head as I observed.

1) Did McCain mention this on two occasions because he wanted to mention it but had forgotten he had already made the point?
2) Was Obama going to point that science education is good?

The answer to number 2 turned out to be "no", for question #1, the answer shall remain a mystery.

*****

It seems like there's a concerted effort to appeal to anti-intellectualism. In the first debate there was anti-science propaganda from McCain against some study of bears, I don't know what that was about, maybe Ecology. In this debate they're attacking astronomy. Maybe in the next debate they'll go for oceanography, I don't know. McCain also waved his hand in derision when referring to Obama's preference for nuclear waste disposal facilities, as though it was some esoteric concern.

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Originally posted by djelimon:
[b]Yeah, he tried, but those swing voters in Ohio actually reacted negatively to that stuff.

But the health care thing, Obama was literally off the charts with women.[/b]

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I noticed that there were times when Obama went negative that the lines dipped as well. I really got the feeling that people just didn't want to here crap about the other guy. They just want to hear what each says. If so that really doesn't bode well for the McCain campaigns current negative strategy. The base loves it of course. I'm sure 'that one' got cheers but with others...not so much.

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Originally posted by 500_Apples:
[b]

McCain was bragging about how he voted against a Bush Cheney bill which had pork barrel for oil producers. He first described the bill and then he said "guess who supported it... that one"... [sarc]one can't expect a man of McCain's stature and integrity who puts his country first to refer to a black man by his name or by his position.[/sarc]

[ 07 October 2008: Message edited by: 500_Apples ][/b]

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Yep I totally agree. I didn't want to bring up the race thing but I know that it's going to be taken that way by a lot of people. To me he might have well just said 'that uppity blah blah'. It was pretty pathetic.

edited to add: The clip was up on youtube in about 10 mins.

[ 07 October 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]

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Originally posted by 500_Apples:
[b]

I wouldn't think it was race if it were that isolated incident.

Throughout the debates though, Obama has been saying John or Senator McCain, whereas McCain has been saying things like "that one" or not looking at his opponent when speaking to him et cetera. As far as I know that's not how he's addressed opponents in the past.

I think at this point the evidence is strong that McCain is uniquely derisive and condescending towards Obama.[/b]

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Yeah, regardless of the reasons it's painfully obvious he doesn't like him. I'd use the word 'despise'. The last debate was like that too.

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Originally posted by peskyfly1:
[b]Isn't it crazy that the American government nationalized all those banks? And there was hardly a debate?
You'd think that all those free marketeers, questioners, moderators, pundits would at least bring it up. The word is nationalized.
You'd also think all those opposed to government itself would be up in arms, rifle at the ready, resurrecting the revolution of the founding fathers.
I'd take odds that some American patriot somewhere is going to attack a government something. It happened with Tim McVie, the unibomber, and the anthrax mailer (so far uncharged).
What would the candidates do in the event of civil unrest? Empty stomachs make people do things they wouldn't ordinarily do. It's a crazy world.[/b]

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Empty stomachs would make people more subservient.

The leaders of the people who believe in free market ideology are not complaining because they're the ones being bailed out. Hank Paulson will have a secure retirement. Meanwhile, free market ideologues think the financial crisis is caused by the community reinvestment act, by a lack of values in the African American community, et cetera. I think some congressional republicans proposed a tax cut (capital gains) as a means to alleviating these problems.

quote:

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Originally posted by 500_Apples:
[b]It seems like there's a concerted effort to appeal to anti-intellectualism. In the first debate there was anti-science propaganda from McCain against some study of bears, I don't know what that was about, maybe Ecology. In this debate they're attacking astronomy. Maybe in the next debate they'll go for oceanography, I don't know. McCain also waved his hand in derision when referring to Obama's preference for nuclear waste disposal facilities, as though it was some esoteric concern.[/b]

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A keen observance! I was noticing that McCain totally glossed over the nuclear issue as open and shut. Obama actually had some thought in his responses.

Why was McCain doing that? He eventually brought forward his history of serving on boats with nuclear reactors, but he totally ignores the policy implications and political meandering that will necessarily go along with reactor location. Additionally, his service with the Navy should have had him well equated with the cost of nuclear power. The US Navy has always invested rather hefty amounts into nuclear - it is extremely costly to build, maintain, and continue to research. I would say that it is overly optimistic to assume that McCain knows about these costs. Remember, where does all of that money come from to support this industry? The creation of jobs is great, but it is naive to assume that we will have the continued economic strength to hold up these burdens - particularly building new ones, and in many cases refurbishing the old. And when them old ones can't be refurbished, you have to decommission them, lose the jobs at that plant. Then you have to decontaminate the site, and oh boy. Just think of the fun in terms of local politics, regional politics, state, federal...the paper trail from government to private, the zoning.

The nuclear power issue is fascinating, but it is headache. You can't talk about it with most voters and continue to keep their interest. I would imagine it would be difficult to express this fully to voters. And it seems really handy that McCain can pull the the anti-intellectual card, making it harder for Obama to talk about these issues.

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For those not up to speed, apparently Obama supported spending $3 million to upgrade the projector at the Adler planetarium in some bill, this projector had not been replaced in many decades. McCain has been mentioning this as an example of the waste which is holding America back financially and causing the national debt.

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Yeah, I picked up on that one right away. McCain made it sound like Obama had spent 3 million on a classroom overhead projector, and he mentioned it twice.

I'm a bit surprised the media isn't having more fun with that today, given McCains rep for being out of touch with modern technology.

This is what 3 million get you BTW. Looks like a good deal to me.

[img]http://www.zeiss.de/C12567B000352701/GraphikTitelIntern/STARMASTERPleiades/$File/ZMP_Pleiaden-Hintergrund_.jpg[/img]

Well, McCain, like Falwell has masterful calves and can easily leg press a thousand pounds of regulation. He's a maverick.

Oh, god. I'm McCaining.

And tragically, Jerry Falwell is not a factor in this election.

[img]http://fredericksburg.com/blogs/photos/cjones05.17.07%232[/img]

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Originally posted by GOD:
[b]

Cure them!!! Who the heck do you think gave them to him in the first place?[/b]

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This is [b]almost[/b] enough to turn me into a believer.

But not quite. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

[ 08 October 2008: Message edited by: bigcitygal ]

For those interested, there is such a thread [url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=13&t=004136&p....

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Letterman has been really hard on McCain this campaign

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It started when McCain ducked out of his show to save the economy. Seriously.

While right now the press is all over "that one", I think the real line of the debate was the health care = a right line. Again, he maxed out ALL the females response, and the men got pretty excited for the emotional retards that men are (I am a man, FTR). I mean, that's gotta mean something. I've never seen one line max out ever in a debate before. And he took definitive ownership of this issue, and his stance is hugely popular.

Of course, neither candidate got to see those numbers, which makes it interesting.

As I saw it, McCain opted for the weasel words option. My guess is he figured that was the most politically convenient position, because it's in the middle, and if you get dibs you define what "It's a responsibility" means (Repub code for it's mostly a privilege imo). He (and myself a little bit) probably expected Obama to say "John McCain is right, it is a responsibility, but..." which would have given him a sound bite to spin in the attack adds.

Instead, Obama stayed firmly on the far side of the right.

[ 08 October 2008: Message edited by: djelimon ]

The only conclusion I can reach from the first debate and last night's Town Hall is this: no matter which one of these two wins the election, America will have a nincompoop for President (same as last time).

Two of the three pundits on CNN's Anderson Cooper show, David Gergen and _____ Rollins, both Republicans, said that McCain's campaign is over. The third guy, Paul Begala (Democrat) said, no, McCain still has a chance, but I think it was a sympathy vote, as Begala said he'd cut the guy a break, he's 73, and it's been a long campaign. Begala suggested that McCain should pull away from the negative ads and instead talk about his own character and how he survived Viet Nam.

McCain is getting savaged by the late night hosts - Jay Leno said McCain walking around during the Town Hall debate looked like a retiree searching for his Buick.