How much of Dion's downfall is due to his poor English?
Wed, 2008-10-15 07:12
#1
How much of Dion's downfall is due to his poor English?
Wed, 2008-10-15 07:12
#2
Again, slightly hungover...
however...
I went to my NDP Aunt's house for thanksgiving dinner, with her stupid fucking NDP kids. We talked politics, and all they brought up about Mr. Dion was "you can't even understand what he says...blah blah blah."
On the doorsteps this election, we heard the same thing: "I don't like Dion, he can't speak English...I don't like Dion, i'm not sure why...Dion's too weak, etc."
People saw him as this skinny, awkward, Frenchman who was smart, but didn't look like a guy who could come over and watch hockey with them.
One Vancouver radio station would play clips of his speeches and try to make up things he was saying, making fun of his accent.
It's funny...having immigrants in my family, I grew up around accents, and was raised not to make fun of them, or demonize or think lower of others who had them. Apparentl, many across Canada were not.
According to the AP this morning, "Dion also suffered in other regions because he frequently mangles English grammar and his accent makes him hard to understand."
The National Post says he had "to overcome the impression that he was a retread, hampered by an awkward accent..."
Once they describe this: ""Within a few moments of taking the stage the other night, Dion was mangling and mutilating English with all the abandon of a kitchen garburator. At his first stab, the word "China" came out sounding like "Cheena." And his rendering of "Niagara" sounded like a cross between "Nicaragua" and "Viagra." As Dion struggled to wrap his thick tongue around the language, supporters smiled and nodded and reassured him with their eyes in much the same way polite Canadians encourage foreign tourists to continue asking directions in fractured English."
The Toronto Star says "many observers have faulted aspects of Dion's image – everything from his thick accent to the way his rimless glasses do nothing for his bland "look" – for eliciting negative unconscious reactions."
Racist, Anti-French demonizing.
It's embarassing to all Canadians.
I would rather be ruled by a military junta than Harper.
[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: RonaldReagan ]
Wed, 2008-10-15 07:24
#3
Maysie
quote:
Racist, Anti-French demonizing.It's embarassing to all Canadians.
Yes.
But "French in Canada = Black in the USA"? Really? Then what's Black in Canada like? First Nations in Canada? Hmm?
quote:
I would rather be ruled by a military junta than Harper.
Why are you assuming these are two different things? [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]frown.gif" border="0[/img]
Wed, 2008-10-15 07:26
#4
Its clear that the only reason not to vote for the Liberals this election was the hatred for Dion's French culture; thats why he did so well in the francophone ridings of Quebec... oh wait, he didn't. There are plenty of good reasons not to vote Liberal without even considering who their leader is (was?).
Wed, 2008-10-15 07:27
#5
quote:
I went to my NDP Aunt's house for thanksgiving dinner, with her stupid fucking NDP kids
[img]eek.gif" border="0[/img] Do you even know what fucking board your on. See you let this guy hang around this is what you get...Oh well Guess i am the asshole for calling troll. I would never say that about greens and I don't care for the spoiler they played in a few ridings(it wouldn't have made much difference in the long run)
[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: thorin_bane ]
Wed, 2008-10-15 07:34
#6
[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]
Wed, 2008-10-15 07:37
#7
bigcitygirl, I agree that there is a HUGE difference between a legacy of conquest and national oppression and a legacy of slavery (or ethnic cleansing, dehumanisation and sometimes outright genocide in the case of Aboriginal peoples everywhere in the Americas). The only real case of "ethnic cleansing" against European-origin francophones was "le grand dйrangement" - the deportation of the Acadians. However, the OP was refreshing after the crap we've been getting on this board by angryphones defending the poor oppressed English in Quйbec (they are very similar to "men's rights" activists, who want to turn the clock back 40 years to the bad old days of "Speak White").
There is no question but that there is a double standard about Dion's difficulties with the English language. Although Harper has actually greatly improved his French - probably the only positive comment I'll ever make about him - Elizabeth May for example speaks much more laborious French than Dion's elocution in English.
Having taught languages, I tend to give credence to what Dion says about a hearing problem. I have a very cultivated friend in Paris, in a most internationalist, international-solidarity milieu, who never learnt any English, Spanish (despite working with refugees from the South American dictatorships in the 1970s) or any other language. He can read those languages, some German, and Latin, but not speak any, due to a severe hearing loss.
edited to add: And as for the "stupid fucking NDP kids", indeed I'm inclined to think Reagan is on the wrong board. But the freepers tend to hate anything "French". Poor dear is confused.
[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: lagatta ]
Wed, 2008-10-15 07:40
#8
Gee, I never knew that it was such a handicap to be a federal politician who is francophone in Canada.
Someone better tell that to Laurier, Trudeau and Chretien!
Wed, 2008-10-15 07:50
#9
Trudeau was half anglophone and spoke both languages perfectly.
As for Chrйtien, indeed he mangled both. I think it may have been a question of personality - in English people almost found his old-fashioned "Pepper" accent and mangling of the language cute, while he made francophones grimace as he mangled his native tongue. The compilations of "Chrйtienйtйs" (similar to "Bushisms") were in French.
Dion, an intellectual, doesn't elicit the same kind of folkloric reaction in English-speaking Canada.*
*use any term you prefer - I refuse to get dragged into that silly semantic argument any more...
Wed, 2008-10-15 08:03
#10
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
[b]As for Chrйtien, indeed he mangled both. I think it may have been a question of personality - in English people almost found his old-fashioned "Pepper" accent and mangling of the language cute, while he made francophones grimace as he mangled his native tongue. [/b]
My take is very different. Chrйtien sounds like a painfully real-life person, in either language. He sounds like he's speaking from the heart. He sounds as if he means every word he says. He has a sense of humour. I have never once heard him sound as if he is speaking from a script.
That's why I think Anglos voted for him in huge numbers - not because they found him cute or eccentric.
None of what I said above applies to Stйphane Dion. He is stilted and unsure in both languages, like an understudy tossed on stage when the lead takes ill at the very last minute. In fact, I personally believe that his speech reflects his character.
Conversationally, Chrйtien speaks English, while Dion is illiterate.
Wed, 2008-10-15 08:19
#11
I agree with BCG's point and would prefer that the thread title be changed if the OP agrees.
It is hard enough addressing anti-French animus in English Canada without grossly appropriating another minority's condition.
Wed, 2008-10-15 08:33
#12
M. Spector
quote:
Originally posted by It's Me D:
[b]Its clear that the only reason not to vote for the Liberals this election was the hatred for Dion's French culture; thats why he did so well in the francophone ridings of Quebec... oh wait, he didn't. There are plenty of good reasons not to vote Liberal without even considering who their leader is (was?).[/b]
Just as there are plenty of good reasons not to vote Democrat in the USA, without considering who their leader is. And yet you would deny that racism is a huge factor in the US election?
Wed, 2008-10-15 08:55
#13
quote:
Just as there are plenty of good reasons not to vote Democrat in the USA, without considering who their leader is. And yet you would deny that racism is a huge factor in the US election?
Oh, is driving while French an issue these days?
Being French Canadian and Black in America aren't the same. If someone is denying racism in the US election I'm sure it has it's own thread to be discussed in yes?
Dion doesn't not inspire confidence and therefore trust - Chretien did. Blaming it on his being French is weak.
Wed, 2008-10-15 08:58
#14
I agree.
The worst Liberal result ever was 1984 under John Turner. Was that because people were bigoted against him for being Anglo?
Laurier was PM for 15 years in an era when anti-French bigotry was VASTLY more common that is now now - so go figure.
Wed, 2008-10-15 09:02
#15
M. Spector
quote:
Originally posted by Scout:
[b]Oh, is driving while French an issue these days?[/b]
I couldn't say. I'm not French.
But I do know, as one who lives among anglophone Canadians, that "running for public office while French" is definitely an issue.
Wed, 2008-10-15 10:25
#16
quote:
Just as there are plenty of good reasons not to vote Democrat in the USA, without considering who their leader is. And yet you would deny that racism is a huge factor in the US election?
Its looking like Obama will do just fine in his election, much better than Dion. Maybe he is a better candidate? Or maybe being French in Canada (especially in French Canada where Dion did very poorly) is such a huge handicap that it significantly surpasses being Black in America? [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
Wed, 2008-10-15 10:28
#17
M. Spector
So I take it you [b]are[/b] denying that racism is a big factor in the US election, since Obama is doing so well?
Wed, 2008-10-15 10:34
#18
quote:
So I take it you are denying that racism is a big factor in the US election, since Obama is doing so well?
No I am not. Start a thread on the subject if you are interested in hearing more.
Till then how about you respond to my comments in this thread on this subject instead of attempting to deflect away from your support of this asinine thesis that Dion lost the election because he was so French that Canadians couldn't bear him; especially French Canadians, known for hating the French [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
Wed, 2008-10-15 10:44
#19
M. Spector
Show me where I said Dion lost the election because he was French.
My only point of posting in this thread has been to say that anti-French racism is a factor in Canadian politics, just as anti-black racism is a factor in the USA. You seem to think I should start another thread about that, but this is the proper thread to raise my point. You evidently don't want to discuss that, but prefer to put words into my mouth that I never said.
Wed, 2008-10-15 10:48
#20
and having HIV is like having crabs.
[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: babblerwannabe ]
Wed, 2008-10-15 10:55
#21
quote:
My only point of posting in this thread has been to say that anti-French racism is a factor in Canadian politics, just as anti-black racism is a factor in the USA.
Oh, if that is your only point then I agree. Its a shame you decided to quote my response to the OP in the process of making this point as my issue is with the OP and its attribution of Dion's loss to anti-French racism. Such racism does exist but contrary to the OP it simply didn't play a significant role in Dion's failure; it didn't need to, there were lots of other reasons for that.
quote:
You evidently don't want to discuss that, but prefer to put words into my mouth that I never said.
You've persistently attempted to sidetrack the discussion and paint me as some sort racism-denier for suggesting that there were better reasons for Dion's defeat than racism; you're in no position to talk about putting words in the mouths of others.
If you are still trying to make what you described as your "only point" in this thread I'd suggest you drop the insinuations about my views on the US election and stick to what I have actually said [b]in this thread about this election[/b].
[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: It's Me D ]
Wed, 2008-10-15 11:00
#22
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
[b]
My only point of posting in this thread has been to say that anti-French racism is a factor in Canadian politics,[/b]
French is a language, not a "race", however defined. As Quebec nationalists take pains to point out, Quebecois (and Canadian francophones in general) are not a racial group, and thus anti-French sentiment is not racism, any more than anti-Anglo sentiment is racism.
In fact historically anti-Francophone sentiment in Canada has mainly been a subset of anti-Catholic sentiment which was also applied to Irish, Italians, etc.
Indeed the correct analogy to anti-Francophone sentiment in Canada is anti-Catholic sentiment in the USA, which was still very widespread 50 years ago (e.g. JFK) and is still strong in some quarters.
[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: brookmere ]
Wed, 2008-10-15 11:02
#23
Cueball
So what part of the term "frog" applies to Irish Catholics?
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
[b]I couldn't say. I'm not French.But I do know, as one who lives among anglophone Canadians, that "running for public office while French" is definitely an issue.[/b]
Sure seem to be a lot of corpses that need burying around here these days.
[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Wed, 2008-10-15 11:07
#24
Meanwhile the search goes on for a current federal non-Bloc politician able to convince French Quebeckers that his party will respect them in the morning. [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
Wed, 2008-10-15 11:08
#25
M. Spector
quote:
Originally posted by It's Me D:
[b]Oh, if that is your only point then I agree. Its a shame you decided to quote my response to the OP in the process of making this point as my issue is with the OP and its attribution of Dion's loss to anti-French racism. Such racism does exist but contrary to the OP it simply didn't play a significant role in Dion's failure; it didn't need to, there were lots of other reasons for that.[/b]
Your initial response to the OP was to distort it into a statement that Dion lost solely because of anti-French racism, which is not at all what it said. Referring to several examples to illustrate his point, the poster in question made a pretty good case that Dion had been the victim of racist, anti-French demonizing. This is undeniably true, in my opinion, based on my own observations.
You responded with sarcasm, devoid of any acknowledgement that anti-French racism exists. Forgive me for not thinking that you actually agree with the OP that anti-French racism exists in canadian politics - how could I have known?
I didn't have to "paint you" as a racism denier because you did that yourself by refusing to acknowledge racism as an element in Canadian politics until your last post.
[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]
Wed, 2008-10-15 11:10
#26
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]So what part of the term "frog" applies to Irish Catholics?[/b]
Every Catholic ethnic group in Canada and the US has had derogatory labels attached to it by the Protestant ruling majority. I don't think any particular label conveys special victim status.
Wed, 2008-10-15 11:18
#27
I modified the thread title after receiving an intelligent suggestion to do so.
After sobering up and OD'ing on Tylenol, I realize my linking of French to Black is a stretch to say the least.
But I do think a bit of French backlash was out there...and I certainly think that the reform party wing of the Conservatives use it to their advantage as well.
Wed, 2008-10-15 11:19
#28
Cueball
quote:
Originally posted by brookmere:
[b]
Every Catholic ethnic group in Canada and the US has had derogatory labels attached to it by the Protestant ruling majority. I don't think any particular label conveys special victim status.[/b]
"Frog" actually applies to all French people, even Protestant ones.
[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Wed, 2008-10-15 11:24
#29
Timebandit
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
[b]I couldn't say. I'm not French.But I do know, as one who lives among anglophone Canadians, that "running for public office while French" is definitely an issue.[/b]
Hm. Here in the most anglo of places, Saskatchewan, I don't think it's much of an issue.
I think Dion's biggest problem was a sense that he was uncomfortably stiff with people, a lack of warmth because of that discomfort. I think his inability to pull more support had very little to do with being francophone.
Wed, 2008-10-15 12:11
#30
quote:
I think his inability to pull more support had very little to do with being francophone.
Agreed. His being French might have influenced a few voters one way or another. It certainly wasn't a significant factor is his poor showing this election. Also, although I have raised it numerous times and it has been ignored: Dion also did not do well amongst Francophones and this can hardly be attributed to anti-French sentiments on behalf of the voters can it?
Wed, 2008-10-15 12:18
#31
Dion's downfall was his party's record in power. Canadians were underwhelmed.
Wed, 2008-10-15 12:32
#32
M. Spector
quote:
Originally posted by It's Me D:
[b]Also, although I have raised it numerous times and it has been ignored: Dion also did not do well amongst Francophones and this can hardly be attributed to anti-French sentiments on behalf of the voters can it?[/b]
The reason it's been ignored is that it's a straw man argument: it would only be relevant if somebody here were alleging that [b]the only reason[/b] the Liberals did not do well was "anti-French sentiments" aming the voters. And, of course, despite your attempts to twist the discussion, there is nobody here who is saying that.
Wed, 2008-10-15 12:45
#33
This blows me away-- we are talking about why Dion lost and nobody mentioned the carbon tax?
Dio lost because:
1) the carbon tax did not connect
2) this was the first election of a new government- they seldom lose
3) the Cons spent a lot of money to define Dion without him replying
4) see above the Liberals were broke
5) the 43 time the Liberals voted for the Cons
6) the Liberal platform did not connect
7) Dion himself could not relate to people in a way they expected- he is not of a political style
8) the Liberals have a sorry record that hurt him
9) Dion does not have a strong appearance and sound not in his looks or voice and unfortunately Canadians seem to vote for that even if it means nothing
10) yep the Cons had a lot of cash and spent craploads
Wed, 2008-10-15 12:47
#34
Boom Boom
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:Having taught languages, I tend to give credence to what Dion says about a hearing problem.
I was born with the same kind of hearing loss that Dion has, only mine is much more severe. Learning a second language has been just about impossible for me. French was taught orally in public school when I was young, and deaf, and I had trouble enough trying to get by when all my classes were English-speaking. I've been able to pick up a limited range of French using written lessons - where French and English are side-by-side, and I have a French learning program on my computer. Didn't have either of these methods available to me when I was an infant and even as a teenager. But I can't converse or follow conversations in French whatsoever, and my deafness is primarilly the reason. Dion has my sympathies.
Wed, 2008-10-15 12:57
#35
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
[b]I agree with BCG's point and would prefer that the thread title be changed if the OP agrees.
It is hard enough addressing anti-French animus in English Canada without grossly appropriating another minority's condition.[/b]
No, I've thought better of entering into another of these arguments - they are invariably irrational and vituperative. I've deleted my post.
[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]
Wed, 2008-10-15 13:07
#36
remind
The Liberals downfall, with Dion as leader, has nothing to do with his being French. And everything to do with who they are and what they stand for. As we can see exampled by this comment from the OP and what it tells us.
quote:
with her stupid fucking NDP kids.
If Duceppe had been leader of the Liberals, or would have been another national party leader, he most likely would have been leader of a minority government, or had a strong opposition position to leverage himself from, to win the next time.
Canadians across the country, that I have spoken with really like him, and the leader's approval polls show the same. There is no anti-francaphone sentiment that I have seen here in BC. People fight to get their kids into the totally french speaking achools, and the mixed ones too.
Wed, 2008-10-15 13:09
#37
M. Spector
quote:
Originally posted by RonaldReagan:
[b]I modified the thread title after receiving an intelligent suggestion to do so.After sobering up and OD'ing on Tylenol, I realize my linking of French to Black is a stretch to say the least.
But I do think a bit of French backlash was out there...and I certainly think that the reform party wing of the Conservatives use it to their advantage as well.[/b]
The original title was [b]French in Canada = Black in the USA[/b]. Neither that title nor your opening post suggested that the Liberals lost because of Dion's lack of facility in French. Rather, both suggested that there was an element of racism, in English Canada against politicians with heavy French accents. Indeed, the anecdotes you described and the media comments you related all served to confirm that thesis.
The new title ("How much of Dion's downfall is due to his poor English?") expresses something very different - namely, the idea that Dion's own personal failing in language skills may be responsible for his party's unpopularity. It focuses on Dion himself, rather than on the bigoted/xenophobic reactions to him that you so amply demonstrated in the OP.
In short, I regret that you were bullied into changing the title of the thread, because I thought it was a clear way of encapsulating the issue of anti-French prejudice in Canada, and I thought that was a topic well worth discussing.
Wed, 2008-10-15 13:17
#38
Oh, for heaven's sake. Ukrainians, Russians, Mennonites, Finns, Swedes, Chinese, etc. in western Canada resented that they didn't get what French-speakers got. Their resentment was legitimate. Their aiming it at francophones was not. But this kind of thing is all too common - if the ruling class gives something to one group, other groups all too often blame that group rather than the ruling class for the inequity. (It's commonly pointed out that this serves the interests of the ruling class.) To call it "racist" - as if it was a matter of feelings of superiority - strikes me as simplistic and inaccurate. (It also serves the interests of the ruling class.)
[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]
Wed, 2008-10-15 13:21
#39
quote:
Originally posted by RosaL:
[b]Oh, for heaven's sake. Ukrainians, Russians, Mennonites, Finns, Swedes, Chinese, etc. in western Canada resented that they didn't get what French-speakers got. [/b]
There was a famous quote from Trudeau pere` about why those groups didn't get the treatment the francophones received:
"The Ukrainians aren't threatening to break up the country".
Wed, 2008-10-15 13:23
#40
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:
[b]There was a famous quote from Trudeau pere` about why those groups didn't get the treatment the francophones received:
"The Ukrainians aren't threatening to break up the country".[/b]
They should have.
Wed, 2008-10-15 13:33
#41
Interested Observer
quote:
Originally posted by Timebandit:
[b]Hm. Here in the most anglo of places, Saskatchewan, I don't think it's much of an issue.
I think Dion's biggest problem was a sense that he was uncomfortably stiff with people, a lack of warmth because of that discomfort. I think his inability to pull more support had very little to do with being francophone.[/b]
Being bilingual, and not having an instinctive dislike of french intellectuals, I must say that the way he sounds in french is far superior to the way he sounds in english. There is a reason people said he won the french debate. He had command of the issues, he was confident without being cocky, he appealed to peoples humanity and was overall very likeable. In English though, he sounds like a dork who keeps trying to be funny while stating very awkward phrases.
That is not to say that there is no anti-french racism or anything, but perception is still important. I'm ashamed of most anglos reaction to him, myself.
Wed, 2008-10-15 13:40
#42
Cueball
Yeah, I was kind of thinking the NDP and Liberals might have done better collectively if they had exchanged leaders.
I remember Layton talking glowingly about Dion back in 2006 just before Dion became leader of the Liberals, the one thing that Layton's political instincts, such as they are, told him simply was not going to happen -- he said as much.
Wed, 2008-10-15 13:42
#43
remind
Nonsense, IO, anglophones do/did not react that way to Duceppe and they never have. So you can keep your attempts to lay guilt, for some non-existent francophone bias, by saying you are ashamed of the rest of us, for yourslf.
[ 15 October 2008: Message edited by: remind ]
Wed, 2008-10-15 13:44
#44
Cueball
So you are saying that some English speaking Canadians, are not even a wee ittie-bitty bit prejudiced against francophone-Canadians?
Wed, 2008-10-15 13:46
#45
Cueball
I must say I love this board. People say the most extraordinary things. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
Wed, 2008-10-15 13:46
#46
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]I must say I love this board. People say the most extraordinary things. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]
And the most predictable things. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
Wed, 2008-10-15 13:51
#47
M. Spector
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]There is no anti-francaphone sentiment that I have seen here in BC. People fight to get their kids into the totally french speaking achools, and the mixed ones too.[/b]
As I have always suspected, you live in a dream world. Redneck anti-francophone sentiment has been expressed against Dion ever since he became party leader and was denounced for having dual Canadian and French citizenship. Similar examples to those stated in the OP apply to British Columbia as much as any other Canadian province.
This is an excerpt from a [url=http://tinyurl.com/52mw7h]research report[/url] on homeless francophone women in B.C.:
quote:
There is a resistance towards the French language in British Columbia, which adds to the fact that the level of government responsible for providing funding for homeless persons is not subject to the Official Languages Act. Many of the comments heard during the research attested to a strong anti-Francophone and anti-Quebec sentiment.
But go ahead, and continue to live in denial.
Wed, 2008-10-15 13:52
#48
Cueball
Jeeze Spector that was mean.
Wed, 2008-10-15 13:56
#49
M. Spector
Hey, just keepin' it real, bro'!
Wed, 2008-10-15 14:11
#50
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]So you are saying that some English speaking Canadians, are not even a wee ittie-bitty bit prejudiced against francophone-Canadians?[/b]
Nope, as I am sure you know, or you would not have phrased it as a question, nor used the word "some".
Wed, 2008-10-15 14:13
#51
Cueball
Ok so "some" Anglo-Canadians are prejudiced against Francophone Canadians, we can agree on that?