Central Nova..... Green Ship sinks, takes NDP with it.

Yeah, EMay was such a PERFECT fit for Central Nova. How could the voters there be so myopic? [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

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quote:

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Originally posted by West Coast Greeny:
No offense, but Louise Lorefice was no Alexis MacDonald. She wouldn't have won there either.

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No kidding. Excluding Central Nova the NDP vote dropped by 10,000 (8%) in the other 10 Nova Ridings. Perhaps that is because they expend more energy on Elizabeth May than on the NDP.

Hello sore losers! NDP gained seats because of favourable votes splits caused by the Green Party. Even a surface reading of the poll tallies shows that the NDP neither gained ground, nor lost it in terms of the popular vote, while the increase in the standing of the Greens came at the expense of the Liberals.

FPTP finally pays of the the NDP, but the whining will never end, apparently.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]
FPTP finally pays of the the NDP, but the whining will never end, apparently.[/b]

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Totally cueball, the NDP got may more seats than the 18% of the popular vote they got. Wait, they didn't and got totally screwed (again!) by our undemocratic voting system.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]Hello sore losers! [/b]

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Dude, this is trolling and you know it. Cut it out.

Okay, so great, say that. But don't insult the others, okay?

The voters decided on who got elected. The parties merely tried to sell them their own particular bill of goods. The Bloc and Cons received a big FPTP bonus this time around and the Liberals came out almost even. The NDP and Greens took the big seat hit from FPTP.

Bloc 50 seats 16.2% of seats 10.0% of vote
[should be 30.8 seats according to vote]

Conservative 143 46.4% of seats 37.6% of vote [should be 116(115.8) seats according to vote]

Green Party 0 seats 0.0% of seats 6.8% of vote
[should be 21 (20.9) seats according to vote]

Liberal 76 24.7% of seats 26.2 of vote
[should be 81 (80.60 seats according to vote]

NDP 37 12.0% of seats 18.2% of votes
[should be 56 seats according to vote]

So the Greens lost out on 21 seats, the NDP on 19 and the Libs on 5.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
[QB]As I said the whining never ends. Now blame FPTP, even though the vote splitting effect clearly gave the NDP more seats under the manifestly biased electoral system, than they normally would, [i]if the Greens had not been sinking Liberal candidates.[/i]QB]

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If we had PR maybe people would vote for the party they actually want to represent them not the lesser of two evils.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]Maybe. Have I ever said otherwise? But suggesting that vote splitting by the Greens damaged the NDP here is pushing it. I think rather the opposite.

By the way, I reviewed the debate video recently, and it was May who said the first thing she would do if elected PM would be to reform the electoral system.

[ 16 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ][/b]

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I have never said anything about the vote splitting hurting the NDP.

So can you talk about anything without just lumping every poster into some sort of pool where you can attribute anything said by one [pick your party faithful]to all supporters of that party.

Your getting rather boring because of your inability to see any nuances in any position except your own. I get the fact you don't like the NDP, so who the fuck cares. If you want to talk about issues you will likely get less blow back than the constant harangue against parties that are not actually posters on this site. A political party is a non-human and the humans who belong to parties bring similar but not identical views to those parties.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]I am not sure what your problem is, because I never said you said anything about "vote splitting hurting the NDP." I am responding to the particular theme of this thread, which is "Green Ship sinks, takes NDP with it."

You responded: "If we had PR maybe people would vote for the party they actually want to represent them not the lesser of two evils."

I said: "Maybe." And then reiterated my original point.

Where is the dispute?[/b]

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Sorry no dispute! It merely felt like you were banging me over the head with the same point without actually responding but merely reiterating it over and over again but obviously that is not a dispute but merely you repeating it over and over again.

What was that point again?

More like: "Green Ship sinks, takes Dion with it".

This is a much more honest summary. Dion was a candidate with one issue where he had considerable credibility, and that was the environment. In fact the Liberals launched their campaign on the issue of the environment. In this election, however, the Greens, simply by the fact that their platform is almost entirely centered on the issue of the environment, undermined any singular special value that Dion's "Green" credentials might have had.

I don't doubt that the conservatives also poached some Liberal votes, and this also contributed, but I think the overall tally speaks volumes about what happened, and in particular, I think, the Dion was very hurt by the fact that he could not claim any special environmental cred, in the light of the preassure from the Greens, especially when they kicked off their campaign on this theme.

I can really see many people thinking both that they would like to vote strategically against the conservatives, [i]and vote for a strong environmental program,[/i]. Had the Greens not been around, I think that decision would have been a lot easier for people to make.

[ 16 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

And, if anything, what happened in Central Nova back my view up, because the Liberal vote converted to Green votes. There is no reason to think that the reverse would not also be true. They did not convert NDP.

People who vote Liberal seem quite happy to vote Green when given no Liberal candidate. This indicates that when they are offered the choice, the vote will be more likely to split, unfavourably for both.

Overall NDP vote did not change substantially, here from election to election... am I right?

[ 16 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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quote:

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Originally posted by janfromthebruce:
[b]

Wrong, and others have shown why. And I think that even NDP folks voted McKay to keep the carpetbagger out and her media circus.

[ 17 October 2008: Message edited by: janfromthebruce ][/b]

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Yeah, I noticed that. Somehow 5000 votes abandoned the NDP and went to Elizabeth May. What can I say? Sorry, in this riding the NDP were unable to hold onto their vote, against the national trend.

By the way, 7000 votes would have lost in the last election too.

Folks this is a NATIONAL leader that lost her own riding. That is close to unheard of for a serious party. What the NDP did or didn't do is irrelevant.

Any normal leader would resign their seat in a situation like this. (Well unless you are John Tory). That May has tried to make the case the Greens are a legit national party, and didn't immediatly resign says an awful lot about her hubris. If May doesn't resign Greens should be calling for her to. If you cannot carry your own seat as a leader, you are either a fringe candidate, or a drag on your party.

LMAOOOOO, so then cueball, what does it mean in your respect, as that is all that we are hearing from you?

No cueball, it means you have gotten down right personal in your invectives, but are still chastizing others for what you consider to their invectives. And indeed further added an invective, by your invective comment, I invite you to take the mote out of your own eye.

The rest of your comment stretches things more than a bit!

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Douglas]Tommy Douglas[/url]

Guess Tommy should have resigned from the leadership of the CCF eh, Remind? [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]

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And thus we have the Burnaby Douglas Riding.

[img]wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]

I'd give her one more kick at the can for amusements sake. She should stay on until she loses two byelections and a general election.

No !
It means..........

""Bloc 50 seats 16.2% of seats 10.0% of vote
[should be 30.8 seats according to vote]

Conservative 143 46.4% of seats 37.6% of vote [should be 116(115.8) seats according to vote]

Green Party 0 seats 0.0% of seats 6.8% of vote
[should be 21 (20.9) seats according to vote]

Liberal 76 24.7% of seats 26.2 of vote
[should be 81 (80.60 seats according to vote]

NDP 37 12.0% of seats 18.2% of votes
[should be 56 seats according to vote]

So the Greens lost out on 21 seats, the NDP on 19 and the Libs on 5. ""(thanks kropotkin)

Is the real problem.

If we can not have even talk of proportional representation even from the party who owned it maybe we should start with just proportional and at the very least fair vote to seat ratios.
It obviously will be more difficult without a real media or even journalistic integrity most times now in Canada.
But the real problem in all of it sadly is just the basic greed and ignorance of the human animal ....period.
Must be.

Watching Richmond BC Chinese canadians cheer-lead and yelp with sadistic glee as harper explained and talked about jailing 14 year old .....er by the way ...Canadian kids.

We live in a time of wide spread cloned ignorance .......complete growth based ignorance ....instant gratification ignorance ...isolation from reality ignorance and we are using the very best weakness in all humans to perpetrate it.
Greed.

Oh how I wish to live to see the lights really go out as I know over half will be lost before the freezer defrosts.
It all just becomes a Blindenburg group ? ...911...haliburton...florida vote count ...type conspiracy until when one stops steps back and really analyzes all the basic sheeple stupidity nicely laid out.
After blatant and open mean spirited character type attacks on dion himself (like chretien's lip problems) are ignored as media just spoon feeds the Masses that he is just an inspector clue-so(bumbling)type and anything else they are to think for the next day and a half instead of real things like the broken election promise wasting 300 million ....the little problem of coastal cities being new submarine tourist parks .....yes just all in the guise of forwarding their original choice and plant here.... mr usa ....iggy..yes back to running their other horse in the plan or party ...point being ?
remove all interference from what was canada as they get on with their original plan and extract all our oil and of course the real prise ..our water.

Until guys like I read here can say they know those others above are really their only hope at all and really just their quirky left leaning brothers ...all the brave party hack talk here will not remove the pain the real man in the real street will now feel moving forward ....yes as the dog eat dog is back in town
and here we still can not even grow a thread on how to grow and reunite the left.

I wrote all the senior liberals I could find, Jack Layton and Liz.........No one responded.

Seems the games the quest and the country ....the world ...the people ....secondary.

I would like to start talking about how we can unite the left so that 36 % can not continue to bully us 64 % just because our own stupidity shows up in our self perpetuating political stupidity against each other.

For heavens sake if harper can reunite racists bible thumpers and gun totting bullies into one force we surely can get the likes of some of you all into the same force?

How about we start with all of you who think the greens and their members should all just be executed please just pipe up here and all of you rest then now realize you are on that at least on the same team?

Just so sad for all of Canada really.

I miss ignorance as it is or must have been bliss.

Have fun here fellas.
Leaving and coming back is like never leaving.
Same old same old.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]Guess Tommy should have resigned from the leadership of the NDP eh, Remind? [/b]

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Usually you are not so sloppy in your rational process, cue. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

First, I never said EMay should not run again, that was you changing the parameters and moving them off of your own invectives, while hassling others about theirs and stretching facts more than a bit.

Secondly, Tommy had already been Premier of Sask, for 5 straight terms, before the alliance and the creation of the NDP. He was a tested politician that had proven he could win over and over again. He sought the by-election run, later that same year, and [b]won[/b]. The CCF/NDP already had been able to acheive governance of a province. Something the GP has never been able to do in the 20+ years they have been around in Canada. Yes over 20 years now cue, it is not like they are some new kid on the block..

Thirdly, EMay cannot be compared to Tommy in anyway shape or form, nor the GP with the CCF/NDP and this occasion is no different. [img]tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

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