Frank McKenna: Latest Liberal Messiah

Tue, 2008-10-21 11:09

V. Jara

quote:

Originally posted by Coyote:
[b]
If you think Paul Martin's problem was being on the right of the Liberal party, you've misread the last 6 years of federal politics.[/b]

Hell no, it's just that Martin (a similar candidate in many ways) was hailed as the Liberal's champion and he flopped miserably. Liberals that think the solution is to move back to their out of touch and out of financial clout corporate roots are engaging in a form of self-deception- the party's broke and it needs an actual donor base!

Tue, 2008-10-21 11:09

#153

V. Jara

quote:

Originally posted by Coyote:
[b]
If you think Paul Martin's problem was being on the right of the Liberal party, you've misread the last 6 years of federal politics.[/b]

Hell no, it's just that Martin (a similar candidate in many ways) was hailed as the Liberal's champion and he flopped miserably. Liberals that think the solution is to move back to their out of touch and out of financial clout corporate roots are engaging in a form of self-deception- the party's broke and it needs an actual donor base!

Tue, 2008-10-21 11:09

#154

V. Jara

quote:

Originally posted by Coyote:
[b]
If you think Paul Martin's problem was being on the right of the Liberal party, you've misread the last 6 years of federal politics.[/b]

Hell no, it's just that Martin (a similar candidate in many ways) was hailed as the Liberal's champion and he flopped miserably. Liberals that think the solution is to move back to their out of touch and out of financial clout corporate roots are engaging in a form of self-deception- the party's broke and it needs an actual donor base!

Tue, 2008-10-21 11:37

#155

farnival

by reading this thread, i don't think people, particularly Liberals, really grasp the visceral animosity and hatred of Bob Rae in Ontario.

during the election, whether it be out canvassing (toronto-danforth...and guelph when the by-election was announced), at the pub, at friends houses, out sailing with crew i didn't know, almost without exception, people who knew i was NDP (either through conversation or the button i was wearing), either started foaming at the mouth immediately, or in the case of self-admitted lefties or ndp'ers, appologised first, then started the foaming, nobody can stand the guy. it is almost universal, and not dependant on party affiliation.

it is worth noting that during the Liberal convention, Rae polled
[i]lower[/i] than Dion amongst liberal convention delegates. i think he polled the lowest of all the candidates.

personally i would like to see the Libs pick Ignatieff. he's right enough on the big picture stuff...foriegn and monetary policy ( i say monetary as i see him as a Martin Lib) that he would appeal to the rightwing libs that drifted to the Cons, and regardless of what you may think of his writing as an intellectual, would make mincemeat of harper in every way in public, debate or otherwise.

he would likely also alienate the swing voter that shuffles back and forth between the Libs and NDP depending on how the wind blows and be less able to poach from us.

i've said many times to Liberals i know, if they'd just picked Ignatief the first time round, we'd never have had to deal with Harper for longer than a few months.

Tue, 2008-10-21 11:37

#156

farnival

by reading this thread, i don't think people, particularly Liberals, really grasp the visceral animosity and hatred of Bob Rae in Ontario.

during the election, whether it be out canvassing (toronto-danforth...and guelph when the by-election was announced), at the pub, at friends houses, out sailing with crew i didn't know, almost without exception, people who knew i was NDP (either through conversation or the button i was wearing), either started foaming at the mouth immediately, or in the case of self-admitted lefties or ndp'ers, appologised first, then started the foaming, nobody can stand the guy. it is almost universal, and not dependant on party affiliation.

it is worth noting that during the Liberal convention, Rae polled
[i]lower[/i] than Dion amongst liberal convention delegates. i think he polled the lowest of all the candidates.

personally i would like to see the Libs pick Ignatieff. he's right enough on the big picture stuff...foriegn and monetary policy ( i say monetary as i see him as a Martin Lib) that he would appeal to the rightwing libs that drifted to the Cons, and regardless of what you may think of his writing as an intellectual, would make mincemeat of harper in every way in public, debate or otherwise.

he would likely also alienate the swing voter that shuffles back and forth between the Libs and NDP depending on how the wind blows and be less able to poach from us.

i've said many times to Liberals i know, if they'd just picked Ignatief the first time round, we'd never have had to deal with Harper for longer than a few months.

Tue, 2008-10-21 11:37

#157

farnival

by reading this thread, i don't think people, particularly Liberals, really grasp the visceral animosity and hatred of Bob Rae in Ontario.

during the election, whether it be out canvassing (toronto-danforth...and guelph when the by-election was announced), at the pub, at friends houses, out sailing with crew i didn't know, almost without exception, people who knew i was NDP (either through conversation or the button i was wearing), either started foaming at the mouth immediately, or in the case of self-admitted lefties or ndp'ers, appologised first, then started the foaming, nobody can stand the guy. it is almost universal, and not dependant on party affiliation.

it is worth noting that during the Liberal convention, Rae polled
[i]lower[/i] than Dion amongst liberal convention delegates. i think he polled the lowest of all the candidates.

personally i would like to see the Libs pick Ignatieff. he's right enough on the big picture stuff...foriegn and monetary policy ( i say monetary as i see him as a Martin Lib) that he would appeal to the rightwing libs that drifted to the Cons, and regardless of what you may think of his writing as an intellectual, would make mincemeat of harper in every way in public, debate or otherwise.

he would likely also alienate the swing voter that shuffles back and forth between the Libs and NDP depending on how the wind blows and be less able to poach from us.

i've said many times to Liberals i know, if they'd just picked Ignatief the first time round, we'd never have had to deal with Harper for longer than a few months.

Tue, 2008-10-21 11:53

#158

Cueball

quote:

Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
[b]The real burning question Cueball? You have descended so far down your negative path you can't discuss any topic without this kind of shit.
No one but you cares and IMO you don't actually care either you just like to troll. And since I have a new fishing pole I think I will ride along in your boat.[/b]

Is that really the question? I thought the question was what acts of government made by any NDP government, in my living memory have actually lived up to the promise of their stated pre-election position.

The Liberals are often accused, here, of running from the left and ruling from the right. Well the NDP has a legacy which it also needs to answer for. So rather than shitting your pants and lashing out at me when I, or anyone else, tries to get you to confront this legacy, why don't you just answer the question.

How did a scurilous neo-liberal hack like Rae end up running the ONDP? Nothing you have said indicates that the NDP cares to prevent such occurences in the future, by confronting the issue head on. Rather, it seems you would just denounce anyone who brings the issue up.

Hey! This is a thread about Frank McKenna. I didn't even bring the Rhodes Scholar up, but yes, its me who is trolling the board. I just reacted to more knee-jerk partisan denial.

This answer is much more satisfactory and realistic and certainly less chauvanistic:

quote:

Originally posted by alisea:
[b]He was backed by the party establishment of the time - the Lewises, Caplan, Sears, etc. He ran a tough, well-organized, and (for the NDP of those days) slick leadership campaign. His main rival for the leadership, Richard Johnston, had support from a number of the sitting MPPs, and the leftish side of the party, but lacked the backing of The Powers That Be.
I concur with Sharon - in small groups, with people he trusts, Bob can be funny, charming, a good conversationalist. He always struck me as fundamentally shy, which produced a demeanour that could be read, ironically, as arrogant.
I think he believed deeply, at the time, that he was doing the right thing, and that he was truly committed to the NDP. And I think he went through an honest change of heart when he went to the Liberals. I feel sorry for him, in a way - no one will ever truly trust him. Some people can cross floors and the rancor doesn't last. Not Rae, not after the Ontario fiasco. It haunts us even here in Nova Scotia. The ONDP set us all back.
I'm speaking as someone who never thought he was the best person for the job, by the way - I strongly supported Richard.[/b]

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Tue, 2008-10-21 11:53

#159

Cueball

quote:

Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
[b]The real burning question Cueball? You have descended so far down your negative path you can't discuss any topic without this kind of shit.
No one but you cares and IMO you don't actually care either you just like to troll. And since I have a new fishing pole I think I will ride along in your boat.[/b]

Is that really the question? I thought the question was what acts of government made by any NDP government, in my living memory have actually lived up to the promise of their stated pre-election position.

The Liberals are often accused, here, of running from the left and ruling from the right. Well the NDP has a legacy which it also needs to answer for. So rather than shitting your pants and lashing out at me when I, or anyone else, tries to get you to confront this legacy, why don't you just answer the question.

How did a scurilous neo-liberal hack like Rae end up running the ONDP? Nothing you have said indicates that the NDP cares to prevent such occurences in the future, by confronting the issue head on. Rather, it seems you would just denounce anyone who brings the issue up.

Hey! This is a thread about Frank McKenna. I didn't even bring the Rhodes Scholar up, but yes, its me who is trolling the board. I just reacted to more knee-jerk partisan denial.

This answer is much more satisfactory and realistic and certainly less chauvanistic:

quote:

Originally posted by alisea:
[b]He was backed by the party establishment of the time - the Lewises, Caplan, Sears, etc. He ran a tough, well-organized, and (for the NDP of those days) slick leadership campaign. His main rival for the leadership, Richard Johnston, had support from a number of the sitting MPPs, and the leftish side of the party, but lacked the backing of The Powers That Be.
I concur with Sharon - in small groups, with people he trusts, Bob can be funny, charming, a good conversationalist. He always struck me as fundamentally shy, which produced a demeanour that could be read, ironically, as arrogant.
I think he believed deeply, at the time, that he was doing the right thing, and that he was truly committed to the NDP. And I think he went through an honest change of heart when he went to the Liberals. I feel sorry for him, in a way - no one will ever truly trust him. Some people can cross floors and the rancor doesn't last. Not Rae, not after the Ontario fiasco. It haunts us even here in Nova Scotia. The ONDP set us all back.
I'm speaking as someone who never thought he was the best person for the job, by the way - I strongly supported Richard.[/b]

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Tue, 2008-10-21 11:53

#160

Cueball

quote:

Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
[b]The real burning question Cueball? You have descended so far down your negative path you can't discuss any topic without this kind of shit.
No one but you cares and IMO you don't actually care either you just like to troll. And since I have a new fishing pole I think I will ride along in your boat.[/b]

Is that really the question? I thought the question was what acts of government made by any NDP government, in my living memory have actually lived up to the promise of their stated pre-election position.

The Liberals are often accused, here, of running from the left and ruling from the right. Well the NDP has a legacy which it also needs to answer for. So rather than shitting your pants and lashing out at me when I, or anyone else, tries to get you to confront this legacy, why don't you just answer the question.

How did a scurilous neo-liberal hack like Rae end up running the ONDP? Nothing you have said indicates that the NDP cares to prevent such occurences in the future, by confronting the issue head on. Rather, it seems you would just denounce anyone who brings the issue up.

Hey! This is a thread about Frank McKenna. I didn't even bring the Rhodes Scholar up, but yes, its me who is trolling the board. I just reacted to more knee-jerk partisan denial.

This answer is much more satisfactory and realistic and certainly less chauvanistic:

quote:

Originally posted by alisea:
[b]He was backed by the party establishment of the time - the Lewises, Caplan, Sears, etc. He ran a tough, well-organized, and (for the NDP of those days) slick leadership campaign. His main rival for the leadership, Richard Johnston, had support from a number of the sitting MPPs, and the leftish side of the party, but lacked the backing of The Powers That Be.
I concur with Sharon - in small groups, with people he trusts, Bob can be funny, charming, a good conversationalist. He always struck me as fundamentally shy, which produced a demeanour that could be read, ironically, as arrogant.
I think he believed deeply, at the time, that he was doing the right thing, and that he was truly committed to the NDP. And I think he went through an honest change of heart when he went to the Liberals. I feel sorry for him, in a way - no one will ever truly trust him. Some people can cross floors and the rancor doesn't last. Not Rae, not after the Ontario fiasco. It haunts us even here in Nova Scotia. The ONDP set us all back.
I'm speaking as someone who never thought he was the best person for the job, by the way - I strongly supported Richard.[/b]

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Tue, 2008-10-21 12:07

#161

farnival

quote:

Originally posted by Cueball:
...How did a scurilous neo-liberal hack like Rae end up running the ONDP?...

that is the question, isn't it? i was appalled, looking on from Filmon's PC Manitoba, when Rae adopted "Filmon Fridays", and the slide went further down from there.

ever since i moved to ontario in '01, all i've heard about when folks hear or figure out i'm NDP, is negativity about Bob.

and from listening to Dosanjh in his post-election rants, the same question Cueball asked, should be asked of him too.

how can you advance yourself to leader of any party, for the bulk of your career, and then when you jump ships out of opportunism, vigorously and angrily denounce the party you strove to lead, and expect to be taken seriously by anyone?

the Libs better shelve these two hypocrites if they ever want to govern again.

Tue, 2008-10-21 12:07

#162

farnival

quote:

Originally posted by Cueball:
...How did a scurilous neo-liberal hack like Rae end up running the ONDP?...

that is the question, isn't it? i was appalled, looking on from Filmon's PC Manitoba, when Rae adopted "Filmon Fridays", and the slide went further down from there.

ever since i moved to ontario in '01, all i've heard about when folks hear or figure out i'm NDP, is negativity about Bob.

and from listening to Dosanjh in his post-election rants, the same question Cueball asked, should be asked of him too.

how can you advance yourself to leader of any party, for the bulk of your career, and then when you jump ships out of opportunism, vigorously and angrily denounce the party you strove to lead, and expect to be taken seriously by anyone?

the Libs better shelve these two hypocrites if they ever want to govern again.

Tue, 2008-10-21 12:07

#163

farnival

quote:

Originally posted by Cueball:
...How did a scurilous neo-liberal hack like Rae end up running the ONDP?...

that is the question, isn't it? i was appalled, looking on from Filmon's PC Manitoba, when Rae adopted "Filmon Fridays", and the slide went further down from there.

ever since i moved to ontario in '01, all i've heard about when folks hear or figure out i'm NDP, is negativity about Bob.

and from listening to Dosanjh in his post-election rants, the same question Cueball asked, should be asked of him too.

how can you advance yourself to leader of any party, for the bulk of your career, and then when you jump ships out of opportunism, vigorously and angrily denounce the party you strove to lead, and expect to be taken seriously by anyone?

the Libs better shelve these two hypocrites if they ever want to govern again.

Tue, 2008-10-21 16:49

#164

adma

quote:

Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
[b]
I think one of his former cabinet ministers joined - Elmer Buchanan? And maybe one or two former backbenchers. But yes, I thought it was striking how few of his former caucus and supporters followed him into the Liberal Party.[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ][/b]

Maybe it's blurred by quite a few of them *preceding* Rae into the Liberal Party--Giorgio Mammoliti, Tony Rizzo, Norm Jamison, Dan Waters, etc, and maybe you can throw in the Toronto-municipal Barbara Hall/Kyle Rae crew as well, sorta...

Tue, 2008-10-21 16:49

#165

adma

quote:

Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
[b]
I think one of his former cabinet ministers joined - Elmer Buchanan? And maybe one or two former backbenchers. But yes, I thought it was striking how few of his former caucus and supporters followed him into the Liberal Party.[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ][/b]

Maybe it's blurred by quite a few of them *preceding* Rae into the Liberal Party--Giorgio Mammoliti, Tony Rizzo, Norm Jamison, Dan Waters, etc, and maybe you can throw in the Toronto-municipal Barbara Hall/Kyle Rae crew as well, sorta...

Tue, 2008-10-21 16:49

#166

adma

quote:

Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
[b]
I think one of his former cabinet ministers joined - Elmer Buchanan? And maybe one or two former backbenchers. But yes, I thought it was striking how few of his former caucus and supporters followed him into the Liberal Party.[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ][/b]

Maybe it's blurred by quite a few of them *preceding* Rae into the Liberal Party--Giorgio Mammoliti, Tony Rizzo, Norm Jamison, Dan Waters, etc, and maybe you can throw in the Toronto-municipal Barbara Hall/Kyle Rae crew as well, sorta...

Tue, 2008-10-21 16:59

#167

Stockholm

quote:

Giorgio Mammoliti, Tony Rizzo, Norm Jamison, Dan Waters

These are four out of the evil 12 NDP MPPs under Rae who voted AGAINST same sex spousal benefits when Rae allowed his "free vote" in 1994.

I don't know if Barbara Hall ever actually joined the Liberals - I think she has to be non-partisan in her job.

Ironically, Kyle Rae left the NDP specifically to protest Bob Rae's mishandling of the SSM issue - but then he endorsed Rae in Toronto Centre. I'm quite certain that Kyle Rae has never actually joined the Liberal party though.

Tue, 2008-10-21 16:59

#168

Stockholm

quote:

Giorgio Mammoliti, Tony Rizzo, Norm Jamison, Dan Waters

These are four out of the evil 12 NDP MPPs under Rae who voted AGAINST same sex spousal benefits when Rae allowed his "free vote" in 1994.

I don't know if Barbara Hall ever actually joined the Liberals - I think she has to be non-partisan in her job.

Ironically, Kyle Rae left the NDP specifically to protest Bob Rae's mishandling of the SSM issue - but then he endorsed Rae in Toronto Centre. I'm quite certain that Kyle Rae has never actually joined the Liberal party though.

Tue, 2008-10-21 16:59

#169

Stockholm

quote:

Giorgio Mammoliti, Tony Rizzo, Norm Jamison, Dan Waters

These are four out of the evil 12 NDP MPPs under Rae who voted AGAINST same sex spousal benefits when Rae allowed his "free vote" in 1994.

I don't know if Barbara Hall ever actually joined the Liberals - I think she has to be non-partisan in her job.

Ironically, Kyle Rae left the NDP specifically to protest Bob Rae's mishandling of the SSM issue - but then he endorsed Rae in Toronto Centre. I'm quite certain that Kyle Rae has never actually joined the Liberal party though.

Tue, 2008-10-21 17:06

#170

NorthReport

Huh?

quote:

Originally posted by ghoris:
[QB]
I think it's safe to say that the next leader will almost certainly be an Anglo from Toronto,
Q]

Tue, 2008-10-21 17:06

#171

NorthReport

Huh?

quote:

Originally posted by ghoris:
[QB]
I think it's safe to say that the next leader will almost certainly be an Anglo from Toronto,
Q]

Tue, 2008-10-21 17:06

#172

NorthReport

Huh?

quote:

Originally posted by ghoris:
[QB]
I think it's safe to say that the next leader will almost certainly be an Anglo from Toronto,
Q]

Tue, 2008-10-21 17:16

#173

NorthReport

I wonder what McKenna's position on Afghanistan is? Anyone know that?

Tue, 2008-10-21 17:16

#174

NorthReport

I wonder what McKenna's position on Afghanistan is? Anyone know that?

Tue, 2008-10-21 17:16

#175

NorthReport

I wonder what McKenna's position on Afghanistan is? Anyone know that?

Tue, 2008-10-21 17:59

#176

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

McKenna's [url=http://www.unb.ca/bruns/0405/21/opinion/mckenna.html]connections to the Carlyle and Bilderberg Groups[/url] would suggest that he is a big supporter of the war in Afghanistan.

Moreover, as ambassador to the USA, he was known repeatedly to reassure the Yanks that Canada was gung-ho about doing its part for the War on Terra™ by helping out with foreign imperialist wars.

Tue, 2008-10-21 17:59

#177

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

McKenna's [url=http://www.unb.ca/bruns/0405/21/opinion/mckenna.html]connections to the Carlyle and Bilderberg Groups[/url] would suggest that he is a big supporter of the war in Afghanistan.

Moreover, as ambassador to the USA, he was known repeatedly to reassure the Yanks that Canada was gung-ho about doing its part for the War on Terra™ by helping out with foreign imperialist wars.

Tue, 2008-10-21 17:59

#178

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

McKenna's [url=http://www.unb.ca/bruns/0405/21/opinion/mckenna.html]connections to the Carlyle and Bilderberg Groups[/url] would suggest that he is a big supporter of the war in Afghanistan.

Moreover, as ambassador to the USA, he was known repeatedly to reassure the Yanks that Canada was gung-ho about doing its part for the War on Terra™ by helping out with foreign imperialist wars.

Tue, 2008-10-21 18:19

#179

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

quote:

Originally posted by farnival:
[b]how can you advance yourself to leader of any party, for the bulk of your career, and then when you jump ships out of opportunism, vigorously and angrily denounce the party you strove to lead, and expect to be taken seriously by anyone?[/b]

Hey, it worked for [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazen_Argue]Hazen Argue[/url], who ended up in the Senate.

Tue, 2008-10-21 18:19

#180

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

quote:

Originally posted by farnival:
[b]how can you advance yourself to leader of any party, for the bulk of your career, and then when you jump ships out of opportunism, vigorously and angrily denounce the party you strove to lead, and expect to be taken seriously by anyone?[/b]

Hey, it worked for [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazen_Argue]Hazen Argue[/url], who ended up in the Senate.

Tue, 2008-10-21 18:19

#181

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

quote:

Originally posted by farnival:
[b]how can you advance yourself to leader of any party, for the bulk of your career, and then when you jump ships out of opportunism, vigorously and angrily denounce the party you strove to lead, and expect to be taken seriously by anyone?[/b]

Hey, it worked for [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazen_Argue]Hazen Argue[/url], who ended up in the Senate.

Tue, 2008-10-21 18:20

#182

aka Mycroft

quote:

Originally posted by M. Spector:
[b]Hey, it worked for [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazen_Argue]Hazen Argue[/url], who ended up in the Senate.[/b]

He was never taken seriously though.

Tue, 2008-10-21 18:20

#183

aka Mycroft

quote:

Originally posted by M. Spector:
[b]Hey, it worked for [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazen_Argue]Hazen Argue[/url], who ended up in the Senate.[/b]

He was never taken seriously though.

Tue, 2008-10-21 18:20

#184

aka Mycroft

quote:

Originally posted by M. Spector:
[b]Hey, it worked for [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazen_Argue]Hazen Argue[/url], who ended up in the Senate.[/b]

He was never taken seriously though.

Tue, 2008-10-21 18:22

#185

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

He was in Trudeau's cabinet from 1980 to 1984.

Tue, 2008-10-21 18:22

#186

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

He was in Trudeau's cabinet from 1980 to 1984.

Tue, 2008-10-21 18:22

#187

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

He was in Trudeau's cabinet from 1980 to 1984.

Tue, 2008-10-28 15:33

#188

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

[url=http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20081028/mckenna_lea... will not run.[/url]

Tue, 2008-10-28 17:57

#189

Maxx

quote:

Originally posted by M. Spector:
[b][url=http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20081028/mckenna_lea... will not run.[/url][/b]

Fortunately for the Liberal Party, IMO. The man would have difficulty inspiring progressive Liberals, the people who elected Stephane Dion.

Tue, 2008-10-28 19:35

#190

aka Mycroft

So this opens the way for another boring business Liberal candidate. John Manley perhaps?

Iggy must not be pleased at David Peterson. It doesn't look good when one of your main supporters goes out of his way to beg someone other than you to run [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Wed, 2008-10-29 05:03

#191

Caissa

McKenna has declared he isn't in. Dominique Leblanc becomes the first declared candidate. My crystal ball says Iggy will be the next leader of the Libs.

Wed, 2008-10-29 06:15

#192

johnpauljones

Since the membership deadline is in 2 weeks I think that with McKenna bowing out this only proves that the race will not be "democratic"

The only people with ground campaigns up and running are Rae and Iggy.

One of the 2 will win the leadership.

Neither will be able to impress Canadians and bring the libs back to "power"

Remember the great Chretien mandate came from 1 province -- Ontario. never again will Ontario blindly vote pro liberal.

Wed, 2008-10-29 10:06

#193

Mojoroad1

I still think MR. SPP (Manley) might make a go of it.... (oh please please please let's have an election over Nafta after Obama wins and SPP [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] )

Sat, 2009-07-04 20:28

#194

Tigana