The NDP and Quebec's Self-Determination

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Originally posted by torontoprofessor:
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Foreigners?

ETA: When in Paris, Moscow or Rome, I am a foreigner. When in Vancouver, Montreal or Iqaluit, I am not.
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So you would like a vote in the next referendum, right? You have formally complained about being denied a vote in the previous two? Let me know how that works out for you.

torontoprofessor:

Foreigners?

ETA: When in Paris, Moscow or Rome, I am a foreigner. When in Vancouver, Montreal or Iqaluit, I am not.

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unionist: So you would like a vote in the next referendum, right? You have formally complained about being denied a vote in the previous two? Let me know how that works out for you.

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Nothing I said suggests that I would like a vote in any provincial referendum in any province or territory in which I do not reside.

When visiting Vancouver, I am not a foreigner. Nonetheless, I would not want to vote in any British Columbia referendum (or any BC election, or any Vancouver mayoral election, etc.).

When visiting Iqaluit, I am not a foreigner. Nonetheless, I would not want to vote in any Nunavut referendum.

When visiting Montreal, I am not a foreigner. Nonetheless, I would not want to vote in any Quebec referendum.

May I ask three questions? (Background: I am a Canadian citizen residing in Toronto.)

(1) When visiting Vancouver, am I a foreigner?
(2) When visiting Iqaluit, am I a foreigner?
(3) When visiting Montreal, am I a foreigher?

Of course, there are borderline cases. Consider, in 1979, a citizen of West Germany visiting her relatives in East Germany: is she a foreigner? Plausibly a borderline case. Similarly with a Belgrader, in 2008, in Pristina.

As for "degrees of foreignness", I experience a degree of foreignness not only in Iqaluit and Montreal, but also in Barrie, Ontario. But it would be bizarre for a Barrian to describe me as a "foreigner" despite some degree of foreignness. And (see my general line of reasoning below), I would say that while in Montreal, Vancouver, Iqaluit, Moosonee or Pickering, I am not a foreigner (despite a degree of foreignness).

When the borders of a nation-state (not a nation, but a nation-state) are clearly recognized both internationally [i]and[/i] internally, by all relevant parties, then it seems to me simply incorrect to describe citizens in that nation-state as "foreigners" relative to other parts of that nation-state. To call me a "foreigner" while I'm in Montreal strongly suggests that I am no longer in my own country. Some Quebeckers might believe that, and might want to make that very point: while in Montreal, you, torontoprofessor, are not in your own country. I would be surprised to find out that this is unionist's view (but maybe it is).

As for your questions, I would say that a British citizen from Bristol is not a foreigner in Scotland or Wales. What about Northern Ireland? Well, the Republic of Ireland, one of the key players, does not recognize Northern Ireland as part of the UK. So that would be a borderline case. What about South Africa? Certainly a foreigner (unless she has South African citizenship for some reason).

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Originally posted by torontoprofessor:
[b]Nothing I said suggests that I would like a vote in any provincial referendum in any province or territory in which I do not reside. [/b]

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Excellent. I now understand that your entire intervention is only to debate the meaning of the word "foreigner".

As long as you agree you have no right to participate in Quebeckers' decision as to how or whether to exercise their self-determination, I have no problem with whatever terminology you choose to use. "Honoured colleague", perhaps, instead of "foreigner" - ok?

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[b]When visiting Montreal, am I a foreigner?[/b]

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Of course not. You're a Canadian, and Montrйal is part of Canada.

But when Quebeckers are deciding their future (which, if you care to scroll back, is what started this discussion and the use of the word "foreigner"), you are most definitely not allowed to participate. You are, for that purpose, as "foreign" as a Nepalese citizen and resident. That's because Quйbec enjoys the inalienable right to self-determination.

[ 24 October 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

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Originally posted by Lard Tunderin' Jeezus:
[b]Does that just apply to me, or to anyone in my situation? [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]

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You could vote if you changed your name very slightly to Fиves au Lard Tunderin' Jeezus.

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
[b]I often think I am a stranger in a strange land. If you can grog that?[/b]

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Methinks you mean "grok".

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[b]So sure Quebec has the unilateral right to secede but not to set the terms of secession.[/b]

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I have never heard [b][i]anyone[/i][/b] suggest that Quйbec has the right to "set the terms of secession".

But if you think people in Ottawa - or in this thread - acknowledge Quйbec's "unilateral right to secede", then I invite you to re-read the posts about Quebeckers "tearing apart my nation".

The Clarity Act does not recognize Quйbec's unilateral right to secede. Hence, progressive people must demand its repeal, along with a positive affirmation of that right. Don't you agree?

ETA: Can we [url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=008096]co... the discussion here[/url] before the thread is closed? Thanks.

[ 24 October 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]