Who Should Replace Howard Hampton?

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Originally posted by candle:
[b][url=http://andreahorwath.ca/aboutAndrea]Andrea Horvath [/url][/b]

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As previously discussed

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002175]he..., and

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002164]he..., and

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002164]he..., and

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002161]he..., and

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002184]he..., and

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002156]he... As well as

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=001939&p=... and even way back[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=000736&p=] when she was running in the 2004 by-election:[/url]

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Originally posted by Booker:
[b]Just watched the CH @ 5:30 debate and subsequent TV coverage.

Another decisive victory for the confident, articulate, stately Andrea Horwath. On issue after issue, she looked every bit the next Hamilton East MPP.[/b]

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Originally posted by Booker:
[b]More coverage of the Hamilton East debate in the Stoney Creek News.

Highlights:

New Democrat candidate Andrea Horwath and Progressive Conservative candidate Tara Crugnale relentlessly hammered at Mr. Agostino and the Liberal government's record of broken promises, saying Hamilton East residents need a "fighter" at Queen's Park and not a person who makes "excuses" for breaking the government's promises.

"I'm an arrogant government's worst nightmare," said Ms. Horwath, to a chorus of applause from the pro- NDP crowd at Hamilton Cathedral Secondary School.[/b]

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Originally posted by Phil:
[b]I am fascinated by the energy this election has generated among my Steeltown co-workers.

. . there seems to be a real sense that dirty tricks and slimy tactics are completely wrong when they're directed toward someone like Horwath. Her local profile and reputation for integrity has clearly generated a degree of respect that is pretty rare these days.[/b]

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FYI: There is a Peggy Nash for Leader of the Ontario New Democratic Party facebook group started a few days ago...

[url=http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=31921988206&ref=mf]http://www.face...

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Originally posted by Doug:
[b]

Without good economic policy, we won't be able to afford the sort of public health care we'd like. That should be obvious.[/b]

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Yes, with massive surpluses through the Chrйtien years and huge wealth generated in Alberta, Saskatchewan, and the like, medicare really flourished.

I think there's a campaign slogan in there somewhere:

Get rich, get healthy!!

or

Health via Wealth!!

[ 22 October 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

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Originally posted by unionist:
[b]
Yes, with massive surpluses through the Chrйtien years and huge wealth generated in Alberta, Saskatchewan, and the like, medicare really flourished.
[/b]

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It could have, had they chosen to do so, which is a far better situation than not having the money at all.

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Originally posted by Doug:
[b]

It could have, had they chosen to do so, which is a far better situation than not having the money at all.[/b]

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Wrong, Doug. This country built pathbreaking social programs first, and figured out how to pay for them later. Sorry to be so brazen about it. Later, when attention turned to surplus financing, the dismantling of social safety nets (EI, public health care, public housing, etc.) began.

It's too much to be explained by coincidence.

I would rather trust a poor person than a rich one with the survival of our social programs.

No country ever went broke looking after its people. Check out the United States if you require an example of the opposite.

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Originally posted by unionist:
[b]

Wrong, Doug. This country built pathbreaking social programs first, and figured out how to pay for them later. Sorry to be so brazen about it. Later, when attention turned to surplus financing, the dismantling of social safety nets (EI, public health care, public housing, etc.) began.[/b]

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Canada's economy was pretty dull and grey in 1935. Liberals nationalised Bank of Canada in 1938 and pressured by CCF to do it. A war debt was paid down, and new infrastructure and social programs were funded by the feds creating near interest-free money - about a quarter of the total supply between 1938 and 1974. There was money for schools, hospitals, power dams and health care. "Stagflation" happened, and neoliberalism. Banking and finance was deregulated. Bank bailouts ensued.

Second to few other countries in the world national debt happened in Canada unnecessarily.

Obssession with paying down debt happnened unnecessarily. FTA-NAFTA happened against the wishes of a vast majority of what is one of the most well-educated and informed publics in the world here in Canada.

Exactly right Doug. Tommy Douglas first had to reverse the near bankruptcy of the previous government to be able to move forward more dramatically on social spending. Yes some things were done right away, but many others had to be brought in over time.
Fiscally responsible and fiscally conservative are NOT the same thing. CCF-NDP governments, with the exception of Liberal in sheeps clothing Rae have always been very fiscally responsible.

This crap about being "fiscally responsible" is a line the NDP should be challenging, not embracing.

C'mon, guys, how is the NDP supposed to replace the Cons and the Libs unless it sounds just like them?

Campaign from the right, then govern from the left.

Just like the Liberals.

I think.

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Originally posted by unionist:
[b]C'mon, guys, how is the NDP supposed to replace the Cons and the Libs unless it sounds just like them?

Campaign from the right, then govern from the left.

Just like the Liberals.

I think.[/b]

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What about three decades of neoliberal Liberal and Tory rule? Magic wand much?

Peter Tabuns officially launched his campaign today. Did any babblers make it out to the event?

[url=http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/Tabuns-09-Campaign-913575.html]T... media release[/url]

[url=http://www.thestar.com/News/Ontario/article/525054]Tabuns eyes Hampton's Job[/url] The first comment at the bottom of the article refers to others on the stage with Tabuns.

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Originally posted by Mojoroad1:
[b]

Spincycle, I was the "man in black" (it was laundry day) sitting next to Peter's mom up front BTW.
[img]wink.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]

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It was a great event wasn't it Mojoroad. I was particularly impressed by the diversity of the room and the huge contingent of young people. Also sitting near you was Janucz Duksta (sp) former MPP for Parkdale-High Park. My partner was near you too but I ended up at the back of the room. Understand a video of the speech will be ready soon so theres a good chance your partner won't be blocked out all the time. cheers!

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Originally posted by spincycle:
[b][url=http://www.thestar.com/News/Ontario/article/525054]Tabuns eyes Hampton's Job[/url] The first comment at the bottom of the article refers to others on the stage with Tabuns.[/b]

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Also endorsing Peter was none other than Jill Marzetti, former executive director of the Ontario NDP, and the party's former federal secretary, and Janet Solberg -who introduced Tabuns- Steven Lewis's accomplished sister who's famous beyond her familial ties for advocating social justice within the NDP and outside of it.

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There was a time when the support of the Lewis clan would clinch the election of a new NDP leader.

But didn't they support Frances Lankin?

[ 27 October 2008: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]

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Originally posted by malpeque:
[b]

It was a great event wasn't it Mojoroad. I was particularly impressed by the diversity of the room and the huge contingent of young people. Also sitting near you was Janucz Duksta (sp) former MPP for Parkdale-High Park. My partner was near you too but I ended up at the back of the room. Understand a video of the speech will be ready soon so theres a good chance your partner won't be blocked out all the time. cheers![/b]

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Yeah I was impressed by the diversity of the room....I don't know Janucz by sight, even though I lived in PHP for more than a few years.

Heh, as an aside, funny thing about the Torstar "comment" I wrote... as it was completely factual, I had to laugh when someone put a "disagree" thumbs down on it! [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

Hilarious!

If someone in the NDP (or supporter) was quoted as saying "The Earth is Round", you can bet a right wing wingnut or 2 (or a dozen) would "disagree".
[img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]

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Frances Lankin, quite unfortunately and unjustly, had Bob Rae hanging around her neck.

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Someday someone will have to explain to me why Lankin was seen as having the Bob Rae albatross hanging around her neck, while Hampton was not - even though he held two senior cabinet portfolios under Rae and voted for the social contract like almost everyone else.

No danger of the "union guys going for the union guy" here. Given his labour record at Greenpeace AND his recent labour charges at QP Peter Tabuns is definitely NOT a union guy.

Tabuns and DiNovo are the kind of bad bosses we protest against not share a stage with.

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Originally posted by adma:
[b]Plus the Toronto versus Not From Toronto factor, I suppose...[/b]

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Thought about that one awhile ago.....but you know what? Howard has steered the ship from the farthest flung riding in Northern Ontario for so long, I really can't see that as a drag on the 3 "southerners" (inc Horwath).... I really do think it will come down to ideas and debates , leadership skills and organization.

Also, there is the "White Male" thing...Advantage: Andrea. BUT Peter has a huge and diverse support base. It was no accident he featured so many "new generation" female candidates behind him. And I'm not so sure it matters when so many big gun NDP women are activly supporting him....says alot IMHO.

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Plus the Toronto versus Not From Toronto factor, I suppose...

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Meanwhile, the federal ND is led by a man who is often depicted as the total personification of Toronto - yet under his leadership, the federal NDP had its greatest results ever in Ontario winning just about every single seat in northern Ontario (something the man from Fort Frances has never manged to do), Hamilton, Windsor etc...

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]

Meanwhile, the federal ND is led by a man who is often depicted as the total personification of Toronto - yet under his leadership, the federal NDP had its greatest results ever in Ontario winning just about every single seat in northern Ontario (something the man from Fort Frances has never manged to do), Hamilton, Windsor etc...[/b]

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And winning fewer seats in Toronto than the man from Fort Frances. At one point half of Hampton's caucus was from Toronto - whereas Layton's Toronto caucus has meetings whenever the Leader and his wife have a date.

Funny world.

Wilf, you seem like an historian, did the Lewis clan back Michael Cassidy? If not, that's another one they lost. If so, I think they're repeating history. Peter's a nice guy but he's not a Jack Layton much less a Stephen Lewis.

I don't think the NDP needs another earnest but boring white guy in his late-50s talking about energy efficiency.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: 1948 ]

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I don't think the NDP needs another earnest but boring white guy in his late-50s talking about energy efficiency.

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You may be right - but what are the alternatives?

Prue (another earnest but boring white guy in his late-50s NOT talking about energy efficiency).

Bisson (windbag from Timmins who is regarded as an ANTI-environmentalist and who cast one of the only votes against a bill to increase penalties for cruelty to animals)

Horvath (may be OK, but some say not quite ready for prime time)

I think the few hundred enthusiastic people who showed up at Tabuns' event, including a handful of Babblers, wouldn't agree with these assessments.

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Originally posted by George Victor:
[b]

I heard Peter speak and was able to ask him some questions, recently.

His speech was not inspiring and aside from a green aversion to nuclear, I did not come away with a clear understanding of his economics. [/b]

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Let me understand, you were at Sunday's event and did not come away with a clear understanding?

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]

Someday someone will have to explain to me why Lankin was seen as having the Bob Rae albatross hanging around her neck, while Hampton was not - even though he held two senior cabinet portfolios under Rae and voted for the social contract like almost everyone else.[/b]

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You're right - Hampton is a hypocrite.