Who Should Replace Howard Hampton?

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
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Someday someone will have to explain to me why Lankin was seen as having the Bob Rae albatross hanging around her neck, while Hampton was not - even though he held two senior cabinet portfolios under Rae and voted for the social contract like almost everyone else.[/b]

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Lankin was seen as being in Rae's inner circle while Hampton - who was demoted from Attorney General to Natural Resources in 1993 - was not. It was also widely believed that Rae and Hampton didn't get along and widely perceived that the party establishment backed Lankin.

I was at the convention and saw Rae moments after Hampton was elected - his face was ashen and he looked very displeased, FWIW.

Wow was that ever the best least inspiring speech I have heard in awhile from Tabuns. I got bored about 25 seconds in.
My money is on Nash, failing her getting in Horwath. At least they can deliver a speech.

And could we knock off re-fighting the leadership of what 11-12 years ago. All you do is turn new members like me off.

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It was also widely believed that Rae and Hampton didn't get along

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hmmm...well i have to say that both Rae and Hampton are both pretty disagreeable people on a personal level - Its not surprising that two people with poor people skills would also exhibit poor people skills towards each other!

Other than Rev. DiNovo kindly telling the media that Peggy isn't interested in running, has anyone actually heard from Peggy herself?

Do I need to go appeal to her as one trade unionist to another?

Is there no Ontarian here who will rise to the occasion?

I actually thought that was one of Hampton's finest moments.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: V. Jara ]

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]What makes you so sure that you would like Peggy Nash's views on whether or not to abolish the separate school system in Ontario?[/b]

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It doesn't matter in the least. The world doesn't revolve around that one issue. The ONDP is going absolutely nowhere at top speed, and they need a serious change. They need a woman, they need a trade unionist, they need an inspiring and hardworking leader, untainted by the messes of the past. That's Peggy Nash.

If she takes bad positions as leader, I will criticize her. I hope the same can be said for those who never criticize anything the NDP leader does under any circumstances whatsoever.

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Originally posted by Left J.A.B.:
[b] There was nothing unprincipled about the NDP stance on funding. [/b]

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Yes there was. They're ok with having public Catholic schools but not public Jewish and Muslim schools. That could well serve as a definition of "unprincipled".

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[b]If you really think the most pressing issue in Ontario education is seperate vs public financing you need to get out more.[/b]

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I never said it was "the most pressing issue". If Hampton had said, "John Tory is an idiot, and McGuinty had better understand that we need to move toward a single public school system with careful preparation and transition", he could have got back to his agenda. But he (and/or his ONDP) were too cowardly, too scared of their own shadow, to take that simple stand of principle. So, he was fucked, and deservedly so.

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[b]Not only that put I went past one of the location McGuinty made one of his big defense of public education speeches... [/b]

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What are you talking about? McGuinty and Hampton shared exactly the same pathetic position. Only McGuinty was a lot more skillful than Hampton at skating and diverting. He managed to turn it into a poison pill for Tory, while Hampton whined about "why won't anyone listen to me and what I think are the REAL issues???"

It would be nice to have an ONDP not haunted by its past that could actually look like a viable opposition to McGuinty's Liberals.

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[b]And if you think the conditions in nursing homes that many seniors face is anything comparable to a debate of private vs public education you are in for a sad shock in a few years.[/b]

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Oh spare me. Either the seniors, or secularism, and I have to prioritize. Go Google logical fallacies. And what did Hampton do about nursing homes in 1990 to 1994? Or about same-sex benefits for that matter?

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[b]Hampton was exactly right and I for one was very proud of him and the NDP when he took on those reporters. The sad answer was though that none of them cared.[/b]

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He didn't "take on" the reporters. He was whining and evading because he had lost. He's not a leader. Thank God he's leaving.

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Okay: he's against smoking, nuclear power and rust belts. He's for Green cars, solar energy and wind power. And to the millions of Ontarians who have been asking "should governments exist?" he has a bold answer: YES.

Hmm.

And he's from the "change wing" of the NDP. A family member asks "is that the old white-haired male wing?"
[img]http://www.nationmaster.com/wikimir/images/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..." width="200[/img]
Andrea Horwath.

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Originally posted by unionist:
[b]He was stuck, because of his hypocritical position on religious school funding (i.e. funding for Catholics only).[/b]

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Not Hampton's stand. The Ontario NDP's stand, reaffirmed by several conventions. Don't you think Caucus should follow convention decisions?

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]

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Hampton's concern for seniors didn't impress the voters much, did it?

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Actually, he lashed out at the media in the dying days of the last election and probably saved a couple of NDP seats in the process. It is too bad he didn't get angry earlier.

As for 1990-94 , you're not arguing there was any opportunity to expand programs in that recession? Or are you ?

The Harrisites lowered the amount of personal care time for long-term-care residents (some wound up with one bath a week) to make the sector more inviting for private sector investment. Helping build some new residences also helped.

One could go on, but what the hell, the great unwashed don't count on ever winding up drooling over the side of a wheechair themselves, so it's not a vital election issue. Certainly not in the face of the now-universal appeal of lower taxes.

Like Bageant's American heartland - "dumb as a bag of hair."

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He didn't "take on" the reporters. He was whining and evading because he had lost. He's not a leader. Thank God he's leaving.

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Unmitigated bullshit,u .

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]

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Originally posted by Left J.A.B.:
[b]Please let me know which reporters pointed out the irony of McGuinty speaking about 'public' education at Catholic schools.[/b]

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McGuinty is smarter than Hampton. He got away with it.

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[b]The rest of your screed is sure not the reality I remember living in Ontario in the 1990s. [/b]

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Then you don't recall the betrayal of a government, elected by efforts of workers and people with high hopes for change, which broke its promise to nationalize auto insurance; tore up signed collective agreements with its own unions and stole from the workers; and made same-sex benefits a "free vote" because of their craven cowardice. Check the history, since you were doing other things at the time, and let me know your verdict on that dastardly group, who did more to sully the name of the NDP than most in recent history. That betrayal needs to be washed clean.

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[b]I was hoping that Nash might come in, but if this is the kind of supporters she would attract, it would doom the NDP to once again fighting for party status. I think I will look elsewhere.[/b]

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What a foolish comment. You're smarter than that. Show it. If you think blind uncritical cheerleading support is what your party needs right now, then you are its worst enemy. It will end up on the garbage heap. Your party's leaders need to be held to the highest standard imaginable. If they won't match up, they should be told to ply their wares elsewhere (Bob Rae got that message). You need heroic, self-sacrificing servants of the people in that position, people whose word is their religion, and to whom principle prevails over all petty political partisan advantage. Otherwise, call in the pallbearers and prepare the funeral baked feast.

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Originally posted by Wilf Day:
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Not Hampton's stand. The Ontario NDP's stand, reaffirmed by several conventions. Don't you think Caucus should follow convention decisions?[/b]

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LOL, what's this, trailblazing a new tradition for the ONDP?

Every gang of hypocrites follows exactly those convention decisions which suits them.

The one time in history that they were in power - those decisions were conveniently shelved.

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Originally posted by George Victor:
[b]As for 1990-94 , you're not arguing there was any opportunity to expand programs in that recession? Or are you ?[/b]

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1. Betraying the whole electorate by reneging on their promise of public auto insurance.

2. Betraying the workers' movement by tearing up negotiated agreements and stealing from their employees.

3. Betraying the LGBT community by making same-sex benefits (aka human rights) a "free vote", thus ensuring its defeat.

You're not arguing that "the recession made 'em do it" - are you, Mr. Victor?

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Originally posted by TCD:
[b]He voted for same-sex spousal benefits.[/b]

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He's not a homophobe! See, he's not all bad! Too bad he couldn't sway his caucus to have a whipped vote, and too bad he didn't call for the homophobes in his very own caucus to be tossed out on their sorry asses.

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[b]Hard to blame that on Hampton.[/b]

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Ok, can I blame auto insurance on him? Did he apologize on his party's behalf and promise to redress the betrayal? What about the attack on the public sector workers? Did he apologize for that? Did he say he would introduce legislation (in conformity with last year's Supreme Court decision on the constitutional protection for collective bargaining) to make it impossible for government to effect such draconian actions again?

The only thing he and his party accomplished was a disgusted electorate and betrayed supporters, followed by 14 years (and counting) of Harris, Eves, and McGuinty. Lots of penance is needed - and a fresh start.

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Originally posted by unionist:
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Ok, can I blame auto insurance on him? Did he apologize on his party's behalf and promise to redress the betrayal? What about the attack on the public sector workers? Did he apologize for that? Did he say he would introduce legislation (in conformity with last year's Supreme Court decision on the constitutional protection for collective bargaining) to make it impossible for government to effect such draconian actions again?

The only thing he and his party accomplished was a disgusted electorate and betrayed supporters, followed by 14 years (and counting) of Harris, Eves, and McGuinty. Lots of penance is needed - and a fresh start.[/b]

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Seems to me you know next to nothing about Ontario politics in those days. As a young union leader who publicly quit the NDP and the riding association of a Minister I think I can speak with a bit of authority.

Hampton has in fact publicly admitted that reneging on public auto insurance was a big mistake. How do I know, I was in the damn room when he said it.

If memory serves the only prominent elected member who objected publicly to the Social Contract was Karen Haslam from Perth. To blame Hampton is downright dishonest and silly. There is not a New Democrat from the time who doesn’t share the blame. However, the overwhelming amount of it belongs with Bob Rae. It is only speculation that others would have stood up to Rae publicly like Haslam.

As a public service union local president I have to say that Rae days didn’t seem quite so bad given what happened with Harris in charge. And here is a little newsflash- it was many union workers, teachers, nurses and even social assistant recipient that helped put Harris into office. That doesn’t mean I agree with the social contract, but that in the fullness of time, it is pretty clear that many of us cut off our nose to spite our face by stepping aside and by doing that indirectly helping to elect Mike Harris.

ETA Call me a Hampton loyalist if you want, but I believe strongly the NDP would not exist in any real sense in Ontario without the leadership Hampton showed. I am in the NDP today because of Hampton and a few others.
That said I am looking forward to a new start with a new leader and to next Friday most especially.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: Bookish Agrarian ]

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Originally posted by unionist:
[b]Lots of penance is needed - and a fresh start.[/b]

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Well, rather than kicking a guy when he's down and crawling to the exit, let's focus on that fresh start... shall we?

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Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:
[b]Hampton has in fact publicly admitted that reneging on public auto insurance was a big mistake. How do I know, I was in the damn room when he said it.[/b]

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And he promised in subsequent election campaigns to make good on that broken promise? Sorry, I must have missed that.

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[b]If memory serves the only prominent elected member who objected publicly to the Social Contract was Karen Haslam from Perth. To blame Hampton is downright dishonest and silly. There is not a New Democrat from the time who doesn’t share the blame.[/b]

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Excuse me, I don't know what you mean by "New Democrat", but every union colleague of mine from Ontario that I can think of (except one weirdo and one CAW local rep) votes NDP, works for the NDP, federally and provincially - and they didn't hesitate to publicly damn the government for what it did to the workers at that time. Yes, let those big shots who all nodded and smiled in unison "share the blame" for what happened at that time. But Hampton, as leader, had to [b]make it good again[/b], and he never did.

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[b]As a public service union local president I have to say that Rae days didn’t seem quite so bad given what happened with Harris in charge.[/b]

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Tiresome argument, the same one trotted out to support voting Liberal instead of Tory. And, of course, the victims of the Rae government's betrayal are transformed into the stupid idiots who shot themselves in the foot. Well here's a tip: Sometimes, when you profoundly betray the trust of the people who have supported you and sustained you and made you what you are, they will endure a fair bit of pain just to teach you a lesson. And guess what - even when they were tired of the pain, and needed some shelter, [b][i]they didn't come "home" to the NDP.[/i][/b]

Understand the depth of the betrayal, and make it good again. A new leader with no fear of self-criticism and no fear of taking risks in the future can do that. This crop of candidates can't. That's another reason why Peggy Nash is needed - unless, of course, you folks have someone else who is untainted by that past.

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And he promised in subsequent election campaigns to make good on that broken promise? Sorry, I must have missed that.

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Yes he did. He was very clear about it. I was in Walkerton at Hamptons side the opening of the 2003 campaign. He was asked about it and was unequivical

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Tiresome argument, the same one trotted out to support voting Liberal instead of Tory. And, of course, the victims of the Rae government's betrayal are transformed into the stupid idiots who shot themselves in the foot. Well here's a tip: Sometimes, when you profoundly betray the trust of the people who have supported you and sustained you and made you what you are, they will endure a fair bit of pain just to teach you a lesson. And guess what - even when they were tired of the pain, and needed some shelter, they didn't come "home" to the NDP.

Understand the depth of the betrayal, and make it good again. A new leader with no fear of self-criticism and no fear of taking risks in the future can do that. This crop of candidates can't. That's another reason why Peggy Nash is needed - unless, of course, you folks have someone else who is untainted by that past.

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It seems you didn't bother to write what I wrote. I was on the ground, my partner and I both directly effected by the social contract. I had helped organize a union in a large public sector workplace. Did I blame anyone else no. I absolutely saw teachers and union members, in a town with a large union sector, vote Conservative. I didn't- but I did sit out the election. In retrospect I see it as a mistake. Some of us actually learn from the past instead of trying to repeat it.
Peggy Nash is an able politician in some ways, but she is not universially admired. For me at least, the jury is still out whether she would make much of an improvement, especially when someone like Andrea Horwath is expected to run.

How does public sector expansion fit with the very neoliberal-Liberals NAFTA Chapter 11?

Or the Liberals SPP and TILMA?

I know, I know, their neoliberal voodoo is coming apart at the seams around the world now, so who gives a shhhhhugar ...

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Originally posted by TCD:
[b]Can we please start a new thread entitled "Howard Hampton: hideous asshole and source of all evil" [/b]

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And then that same poster can tell us all about the piecemeal day care system they have in Quebec no thanks to Howard and the NDP.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Next federal convention ask John Rafferty whether Howard Hampton was a drag on his chances. Let me know if he doesn't break your nose.

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I never said that Hampton was DRAG on anyone's chances - but i think that Layton is a vastly bigger asset to the federal NDP than Hampton ever was to the Ontario NDP.

Look at the numbers on "best person for PM". Jack was consistently in strong second to Harper and would get over 20% of people in Ontario saying he would be the best PM. Hampton - even after ELEVEN years as ONDP leader was always in the lows teens as Best Premier and way behind both McGuinty and Tory.

For whatever reason, the guy just doesn't seem to be able to connect with the electorate.

In Toronto, people like Prue, Marchese, Tabuns and DiNovo coast in on their personal popularity and a party loyalty - I have to say that its pretty damn rare that during Ontario elections anyone in Toronto has anything (positive or negative) to say about Hampton - he's like the invisible man.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

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Originally posted by TCD:
[b]None of the current candidates was in Cabinet during that government. One candidate was still in school.[/b]

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Hmm. A new generation of leadership?

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Originally posted by TCD:
[b]Horwath intrigues at this point, for the same reason you like Peggy Nash.[/b]

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I know nothing about her. If she can do the job, go for it. I'll admit that one reason for favouring Nash is the hope of consolidating, repairing, renewing links with the union movement, even enticing the CAW back in. But new, progressive, and female are a powerful combo, and if Horwath is it - and especially if Nash isn't interested (which doesn't clearly emerge from the linked article up above) - then great.

I'm glad things are starting to settle down on the thread here. The only thing that seems clear to me is that the ONDP is still in a lot of trouble. It's been a long time since it picked a leader, it's deep in debt, and no one current contender has really blown the party membership away. It is a time for tough questions but also a time for renewal. The new leader faces very high expectations and is going to need to adjust to them.

As for Hampton, let sleeping dogs lie. He deserves a lot of credit and also a fair bit of blame. Right now, I am focussing on the credit he deserves.

So, V. Jara and Fidel - any views on the thread question? C'mon, stick your necks out a bit.