It’s time for an electoral reform uprising

86 posts / 0 new
Last post
pogge

quote:


Originally posted by largeheartedboy:
[b]Although with the attitude you're showing here, you might not last long...[/b]

He didn't. Turns out Mr. Canada wasn't a candidate for Mr. Congeniality. Who'd a thunk it, eh?

JKR

quote:


Originally posted by largeheartedboy:
[QB] The federal NDP has been consistent supporters of PR for federal elections.

The NDP could be much stronger advocates of PR.

In the future, the NDP should make establishing PR the primary plank in their election platform. The NDP should promise that if elected, PR will be established ASAP.

Provincial wings of the NDP shouls also support PR. And the NDP government in Manitoba should establish PR ASAP for Manitoba.

If PR isn't established soon, an NDP-Lib-Green merger of some kind will become inevitable. FPTP will force it. Just look at the US where the Democrats are about to win take power in Washington. If the left in the US was divided like it is Canada, McCain and the Republicans would be about to attain power there. That's how FPTP works.

Fidel

quote:


Originally posted by JKR:
[b]

The NDP could be much stronger advocates of PR.[/b]


The NDP was voted down by Liberals and Tories when the NDP proposed to restart the federal study on electoral reform in May 2007.

And the NDP has agreed to STV in a large Canadian province where their chances of winning phony majority power appear more likely next May.

And I believe [url=http://ontariondp.com/howard-hampton-statement-citizens-assembly-decisio... Hampton[/url] was the only one of three main provincial party leaders to endorse the Citizens Assembly recommendation for MMP.

There has to be all party agreement and support for change to make it happen. The struggle for advanced democracy continues.

JKR

quote:


Originally posted by Fidel:
[b]There has to be all party agreement and support for change to make it happen. [/b]

The Conservatives will never go along with PR. They love having total power with just a little over 1/3 popular support. They know that PPTP will keep them in power as long as left supporters are divided among a few parties.

The NDP should run on PR.

Brian White

I agree fully with JKR.
I note that Olivia Chow recently tried to pressure Carole james to work in favour of the pr referendum in BC but she was ignored. (James voted for first past the post in the last PR referendum and I am sure she will not change her vote this time round). After 58% in favour she had the gall to lecture the CA that their system had failed and to come up with another system!
For the record, women came out in favour more strongly than men, and imigrants and minoritys were also more in favour. And NDP voters were more in favour than liberal voters too. Which makes you wondor if James ever listens to her voters at all! It is rule by pronouncement from the top down. I believe the federal NDP is doing almost the best they can. The federal ndp needs to make Pro Rep a core value of the NDP at ALL LEVELS. Perhaps Layton has enough power to do that?
Another thing the federal NDP could do is design a PR system and put it in the NDP platform. It can be MMP, STV or whatever. Then next time the NDP gets elected provincially, the system gets introduced. The NDP is reasonable on pro rep on the federal level but on provincial level they are against pro rep. This has got to change.
I really believe that if they supported it all through the organization, they would get a lot more votes at all levels.
I do not want the greens to fold into the NDP.
We should have a system that can represent diversity.
Ireland has vibrant party politics because we have pro rep.
We actually discussed the issues!
Here! If Dion had cosmetic surgery for his chin and wore shoulder pads, he would have won! Seriously, a non issue like that had a big impact in the election. Appearance should not be everything. Harper's probaganda machine associated the green shift with male rape and that was enough to stop canadian men from listening to the details.
We have gutter politics here and fptp is part of the reason. In Pro Rep you cannot afford to offend people like Harper did.

quote:

Originally posted by JKR:
[b]

The NDP could be much stronger advocates of PR.

In the future, the NDP should make establishing PR the primary plank in their election platform. The NDP should promise that if elected, PR will be established ASAP.

Provincial wings of the NDP shouls also support PR. And the NDP government in Manitoba should establish PR ASAP for Manitoba.

If PR isn't established soon, an NDP-Lib-Green merger of some kind will become inevitable. FPTP will force it. Just look at the US where the Democrats are about to win take power in Washington. If the left in the US was divided like it is Canada, McCain and the Republicans would be about to attain power there. That's how FPTP works.[/b]


Fidel

quote:


Originally posted by JKR:
[b]

The Conservatives will never go along with PR. They love having total power with just a little over 1/3 popular support. They know that PPTP will keep them in power as long as left supporters are divided among a few parties.

The NDP should run on PR.[/b]


So let them enjoy their 22 percent exaggerated minority in the mean time.

And we'll lobby Liberals even harder, especially if big wigs in that party gain the sense they will be relegated to a phony opposition role sideshow to the conservatives for too many more years to come. One of them should crack. I think it will be the Liberals. And if not, it makes perfect sense for conservatives to join the PR bandwagon if the Liberal dynasty machine ever revs up again. Good cop-bad cop in the mean time. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

Wilf Day

There are lots of PR systems that would work in Canada: MMP with open regional lists, MMP with no lists ("near-winner), and STV.

Seven-seater STV is an excellent model but would work best federally for the 48% of us who live in places the size of Winnipeg or larger. As in many PR countries, the larger cities are not only the ones with the highest support for newer parties, but also the ones with larger district size accomodating smaller parties. The other 52% of us would likely have STV districts smaller that seven-seaters, but they would still give pretty decent proportionality and lots of voter choice.

In BC, BC-STV will work better because they have 85 MLAs compared with only 36 MPs. The provincial STV map is far better than a federal map would be.

quote:

Originally posted by vaudree:
[b]I think that we should be voting for the candidate in our area but that our vote goes towards the total percentage that the party gets. After the election, the percentage of vote determines how many more seats each party gets and the party gets to choose who fills those seats - the only rule is that they have to fill those seats with candidates that ran in the election (those who did not win their seat).

With that rule, some ridings will have more than one representitive.

That is my idea as to how proportional representation should work - nothing fancy or complicated for the voter, and no tendency towards strategic voting like the German system promotes.[/b]


In fact you are almost describing a varant of the German system, used in the province of Baden-Wurttemberg: a Mixed Member Proportional system, but the additional members are candidates that ran in the election (those who did not win their seat). But the party doesn't choose them: they are the candidates who got the most votes while not winning (the "near-winner" model).

Yes, some ridings have more than one MP. But with any MMP model, the additional MPs all live [i]somewhere[/i], so there are three kinds of MPs serving a riding: the one directly elected from that riding, the one or more who live there but were elected from the regional list, and the ones who serve that riding but live in a nearby riding.

So there are lots of models that are tried and proven.

quote:

Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
[b]In your Sask. scenario it is easy you pick the two candidates form the NDP who got the highest percentage of the popular vote in their riding and still didn't get elected. That way it is still the people who have decided not the party. Any system such a MMP or STV that does not include parties deciding after an election who serves as MP's would be acceptable to me.[/b]

Exactly.

quote:

Originally posted by jrootham:
[b]No real system has the parties picking representatives after the election.[/b]

I've been telling people for years that the idea of parties deciding after an election who serves as MPs is a scary fairy tale. But just recently Nepal made me a liar: that's how they do it, in order to meet their quota system of various ethnics groups etc. So now I have to say "no place does that -- except Nepal." [img]frown.gif" border="0[/img]

quote:

Originally posted by peterjcassidy:
[b]a Mixed Member PR system.

1. 400 constituency riding seats, 100 PR seats.

8. The first round of voting for riding representatives will also determine proportional representation. For every two percent of the vote received, a party may appoint two representatives to the Parliament for one year terms. Excess goes to the party with the highest number of votes. [/b]


You may not have meant to, but you have described the parallel system used in Japan, also called "Mixed Member Majoritarian (MMM)", not a Mixed Member PR system. The difference is, your description would give the Conservatives additional MPs from Alberta even if they had won all the riding seats already. A PR system would top-up the local results.

Wilf Day

quote:


Originally posted by JKR:
[b]The Conservatives will never go along with PR. They love having total power with just a little over 1/3 popular support.[/b]

There are several exceptions:

Democratic conservatives have longer memories: they recall the Liberals having total power with 37% of the vote. PR prevents this, and since the Conservatives have trouble winning a majority even with FPTP, PR has an advantage.

Democratic reformers didn't want to have to unite the right. They always liked PR. Andrew Coyne and Rick Anderson still do: they want a wider political spectrum, just as some on the left do.

Progresssive Conservatives of the Joe Clark and Hugh Segal variety liked PR to keep their party from being wiped out by the tendency of FPTP to exagerate regional differences, giving the Bloc and Reform exaggerated seats in 1993 while the PCs with as many votes got 2 seats.

Urban Conservatives need PR: over half a million Conservative voters in Greater Montreal and the City of Toronto elected no one, when they deserved 12 MPs.

Conservatives concerned with Canadian unity see that the Bloc gets 49 seats when it deserves 31. Even after uniting the right, FPTP still gives a perverse bonus to regional parties.

Parkdale High Park

quote:


Originally posted by Wilf Day:
[b]
There are several exceptions:

Democratic conservatives have longer memories: they recall the Liberals having total power with 37% of the vote. PR prevents this, and since the Conservatives have trouble winning a majority even with FPTP, PR has an advantage.

Democratic reformers didn't want to have to unite the right. They always liked PR. Andrew Coyne and Rick Anderson still do: they want a wider political spectrum, just as some on the left do.

Progresssive Conservatives of the Joe Clark and Hugh Segal variety liked PR to keep their party from being wiped out by the tendency of FPTP to exagerate regional differences, giving the Bloc and Reform exaggerated seats in 1993 while the PCs with as many votes got 2 seats.

Urban Conservatives need PR: over half a million Conservative voters in Greater Montreal and the City of Toronto elected no one, when they deserved 12 MPs.

Conservatives concerned with Canadian unity see that the Bloc gets 49 seats when it deserves 31. Even after uniting the right, FPTP still gives a perverse bonus to regional parties.[/b]


If you look at where there was support for MMP in the Ontario referendum, it is hard to conclude that there is this huge conservative constituency for PR. Parties support the electoral reform that helps their agenda. Why do you think so many people here support MMP/PR? The beauty of electoral reform debates is that there is no perfect system (Arrow hypothesis), and tradeoffs in each. So people can make principled stands for the systems they want.

Folks like to strut as if it is "obvious" that FPTP is legitimate. New Zealand offers a good case of an unpopular government staying in power by forming coalitions with minor powers. PR governments are illegitimate insofar as nobody votes for coalitions. This isn't necessary unique to PR, but it is endemic to it. Moreover, while PR tends to reduce the salience of regional cleavages (though much less so in MMP), it often amplifies other cleavages, like social class.

Democratic reformers al la Preston Manning want senate reform and fixed election dates. Why? An elected effective senate would be a boon for small government because national legislation would get shot down. It would also accelerate decentralization because senators are explicitly provincial representatives, and because the distribution of senators weights the periphery about equally to the core of the country.

Democratic reformers in the 90's wanted fixed election dates and national referenda because they typically lost elections, so any infringement on the power of the PM helped them.

So I think any electoral reform proposal has to go back to the drawing board and come up with moderate reforms that can find broad support - including the support of the current government.

-increase access to advance polls or voting by mail as takes place in Oregon would increase voter turnout.
-approval voting (checking off all candidates that you approve of) would end strategic voting and enable voters to express complex preferences. without eliminating ridings.
-It could also eliminate riding nomination battles if you had a jungle primary (but with no run-off as in Louisiana), where multiple nominees from one party run in the general election (which will increase voter turnout further). It has the perks of STV without the complexity.

Wilf Day

quote:


Originally posted by Parkdale High Park:
[b]Parties support the electoral reform that helps their agenda. . . So I think any electoral reform proposal has to go back to the drawing board and come up with moderate reforms that can find broad support - including the support of the current government. [/b]

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/in_his_own_words.shtml?x=76945]As Larry Gordon pointed out:[/url]

quote:

Step two requires what many would consider an unnatural act. Take your usual political framing and toss it out the door. This is not about left versus right, or urban Canadians versus rural Canadians, or Toronto versus the rest of Canada.

This fight is between ordinary citizens and elites.

At the founding conference of Fair Vote Canada, Judy Rebick said this is possibly the only issue where grassroots citizens on the left and right have a common cause: fighting for real democratic control over those who currently wield undeserved power in a largely unaccountable system. More importantly, if we don’t build a strong multi-partisan front for fair voting, we will simply never win.


BC-STV got almost 58% support in the first referendum despite having no partisan endorsements. The Liberals and NDP took a hands-off position, and the Greens were a bit ambivalent at that time. The BC Citizens' Assembly had done a great job at getting press attention during its deliberations (largely missing in Ontario), so BC-STV continued to attract broad non-partisan support. That's why it should carry next May.

quote:

Originally posted by Parkdale High Park:
[b]If you look at where there was support for MMP in the Ontario referendum, it is hard to conclude that there is this huge conservative constituency for PR.[/b]

Not huge. There were, however, Conservatives for MMP. Not nearly enough, because the proposal arrived so late in the day, and hardly anyone understood it. Anecdotal example: shortly before the referendum I was visiting the local PC office, re-stocking their supply of Citizens' Assembly reports (which no one but Fair Vote Ontario was distributing.) I got into a discussion with a thoughtful party volunteer there. After a brief discussion he suddenly realized it was a top-up plan, not a parallel plan. "Oh dear," he said, "I would have voted for that. I already voted No in the advance poll, because I thought it would just give the Liberals even more MPPs they don't need."

quote:

Originally posted by Parkdale High Park:
[b]Democratic reformers al la Preston Manning want senate reform . . . An elected effective senate would . . . also accelerate decentralization because senators are explicitly provincial representatives, and because the distribution of senators weights the periphery about equally to the core of the country.[/b]

The Harper government has given up on changing the Senate to give more seats to the West. So why are they proposing it be elected by a proportional system, STV? Because they are trying to democratize the Senate, and the Australian STV upper house has not shut down the government there.

quote:

Originally posted by Parkdale High Park:
[b]-approval voting (checking off all candidates that you approve of) would end strategic voting and enable voters to express complex preferences, without eliminating ridings.[/b]

I'm not aware that this system is in operation in any country. It's hard enough to sell a system that plainly works well like STV and MMP.

A Blair

quote:


Originally posted by Chester Drawers:
[b]I do not think the PR model is the answer either, leads to a more puzzled parliament and ultimately more elections. Italy has a long history of multiple parties, not PR, but they have had what; 50 elections since 1946. Also PR would eliminate the possibility of independents getting elected.[/b]

Wow, I don't know how many times I have to debunk this ridiculous "Italy & Israel" myth amongst people who are against electoral reform. Are you sure Italy hasn't had [b]500[/b] elections since 1946? How about [b]5,000[/b]?!?

In fact, Italy has had [b]fewer elections than Canada[/b] since 1946. [url=http://www.wikipedia.org]Look it up[/url]:

Italy: 17
(1946, 48, 53, 58, 63, 68, 72, 76, 79, 83, 87, 92, 94, 96, 01, 06, 08)

Israel: 18
(1949, 51, 55, 59, 61, 65, 69, 73, 77, 81, 84, 88, 92, 96, 99, 01, 03, 06)

Canada: 20
(1949, 53, 57, 58, 62, 63, 65, 68, 72, 74, 79, 80, 84, 88, 93, 97, 00, 04, 06, 08)

The idea that independents wouldn't get elected under PR is also rubbish. Of course a lot depends on the system chosen, but I would say that independents don't have much of a chance at getting elected under our current system in Canada today (we currently have 2, less than 1% of seats are independent) while in a 5-seat multi-member district with STV, for example, and independent would have to win 1/5 (or 20%) of the vote to get elected. Less than what they'd need to win now.

Please stop spreading FUD.

Threads

Strictly speaking, although an independent would generally need proportionally fewer votes to be elected in an STV riding than in a FPTP riding (20% versus, say, 40%), they would generally need to get numerically more votes.

[ 31 October 2008: Message edited by: Threads ]

A Blair

Not necessarily at all. Depends on how large the new multi-member ridings were, how many MPs were to be elected from each riding, etc. Whether the size of the new House would be larger or smaller than the 308 MPs we currently elect, etc. A lot depends on the system we tailor for ourselves. Certainly under many flavours of MMP and STV in use in other countries, independents get elected just fine. I don't think it would be different for Canada.

largeheartedboy

quote:


Originally posted by Parkdale High Park:
[b]

New Zealand offers a good case of an unpopular government staying in power by forming coalitions with minor powers.

[/b]


Which New Zealand case are you referring to?

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_general_election,_1996]The first MMP election in 1996?[/url]

I will agree there were problems with the democratic legitimacy of the government that came out of that election, as during the campaign the New Zealand First party harshly criticizing the sitting National Prime Minister Jim Bolger, only to keep them in power after the election.

However, I think, in the end, democracy won out as New Zealand First lost significant support in the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_general_election,_1999]next election.[/url]

quote:

Originally posted by Parkdale High Park:
[b]

PR governments are illegitimate insofar as nobody votes for coalitions.

[/b]


This might be right, if it were true.

Voters in New Zealand, and in other PR countries, generally know full well what coalition they are voting for when they vote for smaller parties.

There is the odd example, discussed above, where are a party will be able to hide its preferred coalition partners form voters and the media, but it is a rare case.

For example, the shape of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_general_election,_2008#Prospect... coalitions[/url] in the next NZ House are already taking shape even though the election is still on.

[ 31 October 2008: Message edited by: largeheartedboy ]

Wilf Day

quote:


Originally posted by Parkdale High Park:
[b]PR governments are illegitimate insofar as nobody votes for coalitions.[/b]

This is really a disguised argument for defensive ("strategic") voting: it assumes voters should guess what coalitions will be feasible, and vote accordingly.

Even in PR countries some voters do vote for coalitions. More, however, vote for what they want, what they believe in. If their party can form a one-party majority government, great. If not, hopefully they will become part of a governing coalition if one can be assembled that meets a worthwhile number of the party's goals. If not, they will be part of an opposition that works to show the voters that the party's values are better for the country than those of the government.

quote:

Originally posted by A Blair:
[b]The idea that independents wouldn't get elected under PR is also rubbish. . . in a 5-seat multi-member district with STV, for example, an independent would have to win 1/5 (or 20%) of the vote to get elected. Less than what they'd need to win now.[/b]

Actually they would need to get 16.7% on the final count, not 20%. Or fewer if some ballots become exhausted. And if they got 11.5% on the first count, they'd have 50/50 odds on getting 16.7% after transfers.

By the way, Scotland's MMP model lets independents win both local seats and regional seats. In 2007 an independent won a regional seat, and another independent won a local seat. In 2003 there were two regional independents and two local independents.

Tommy_Paine

quote:


Ditto, except for the idea that politicians come up with the alternatives. Citizens' groups like Fair Vote Canada make invaluable contributions to the discussion.

The problem being that when you move to the educating the public phase, they point at groups like "Fair Vote Canada" and say "who the hell are these people to tell me...." I ran into that kind of thing trying to sell MMP to friends, coworkers and neighbours.

Okay. Either I'm crazy (always a distinct possibility) or the only one who sees it, but the real issue here isn't what may or may not be good for the NDP, Liberals, Greens or Conservatives. In Ontario, clearly the NDP, Conservatives and Liberals have benefitted from FPTP, and been disadvantaged by it.

The issue is really one of survival. FPTP and our current parliamentary system was devised to quell new ideas. And when the world moved at the pace of a horse, and then steam, it wasn't an unworkable system.

But it is becomming more unworkable at an accelerating rate. This is a time when we need new ideas from new parties.

Democratic reform represented by proportional representation isn't a revolution. [i]It's to prevent a revolution.[/i]

This is what our politicians have to be made to understand.

Wilf Day

quote:


Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
[b]the real issue here isn't what may or may not be good for the NDP, Liberals, Greens or Conservatives. In Ontario, clearly the NDP, Conservatives and Liberals have benefitted from FPTP, and been disadvantaged by it.

The issue is really one of survival. FPTP and our current parliamentary system was devised to quell new ideas. And when the world moved at the pace of a horse, and then steam, it wasn't an unworkable system.

But it is becomming more unworkable at an accelerating rate. This is a time when we need new ideas from new parties.[/b]


Well said.

Stunned Wind

quote:


Originally posted by Fidel:
[b]And the NDP has agreed to STV in a large Canadian province where their chances of winning phony majority power appear more likely next May.
[/b]

What province would this be in? If you're talking about BC I'd like to see where they have officially supported STV. While most NDP supporters also support STV I haven't seen much evidence of the party leaders supporting it.

quote:

Originally posted by Threads:
[b]Strictly speaking, although an independent would generally need proportionally fewer votes to be elected in an STV riding than in a FPTP riding (20% versus, say, 40%), they would generally need to get numerically more votes.[/b]

You’re right about this – although this doesn’t seem to be easy to see. If more votes are to “count” as they will with STV, then this must mean that each successful candidate must receive more votes, in absolute number. Of course, this includes the second, third, . . . preferences that those candidates receive and not just the first preferences.

[ 01 November 2008: Message edited by: Stunned Wind ]

Fidel

quote:


Originally posted by Stunned Wind:
[b]What province would this be in? If you're talking about BC I'd like to see where they have officially supported STV. While most NDP supporters also support STV I haven't seen much evidence of the party leaders supporting it[/b]

[url=http://bcndp.ca/upload/20040617164139_040617CitizensAssembly.pdf]Present... by Carole James
to the Citizens’ Assembly on Electoral Reform[/url] June 17, [b]2004[/b]

quote:

My purpose this evening is to express the position of the New Democratic Party
on the question of electoral reform. That position can be summarized as follows:

1) First, we believe that the current [b]single-member plurality voting system is severely flawed[/b] and must be replaced by a new, fair, and workable system for electing MLA’s;

2) Secondly, the [b]NDP favours the adoption of a more proportional electoral system:[/b] one that provides greater proportionality in the allocation of seats in the Legislature while ensuring significant local
representation.

3) And thirdly, the NDP reaffirms its position that electoral reform should emerge from an open and democratic process of public consultation
culminating in a provincial referendum. . .


Brian White

James voted against STV and she said so.
(after the election when she was safely elected). And she said the citizens assembly should be recalled to pick a different system!
She is so totally against pro rep that she wanted a new referendum with mmp stv and fptp on as the choices (to devide and conquor)! and STILL retain the 60% threshold to be certain that fptp would be retained!
She is not to be trusted.


quote:

Originally posted by Fidel:
[QB][/QB]

Wilf Day

quote:


Originally posted by coeus:
[b][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_list]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open...

This should be a requirement in any PR system[/b]


Yes, and BC-STV has as much voter choice as any Open List system. And the[url=http://www.fairvote.ca/files/VotingCountsElectoralReformforCanada.pdf] Law Commission of Canada Report[/url] (pdf) recommended Open List Mixed Member Proportional.

The Ontario Citizens Assembly were so worried about increasing the number of MPPs, the numbers of local ridings, the size of local ridings, and the ratio of additional members -- all very important design issues -- that they were working on only 25% or 30% additional members, with province-wide lists to counterbalance the risk of non-proportional results. And by the time they finally settled on 30%, they had run out of time to go back and look at the possibility of regional open lists.

One of the many problems of starting the process a year behind schedule.

Doug Woodard

quote:


Originally posted by Parkdale High Park:
[b]

[snip]

So I think any electoral reform proposal has to go back to the drawing board and come up with moderate reforms that can find broad support -

[snip]

-approval voting (checking off all candidates that you approve of) would end strategic voting and enable voters to express complex preferences. without eliminating ridings.

[snip]

[/b]


Any system which allows different choices to operate simultaneously, like approval voting or the Borda count, invites insincere voting because one can make one's vote more powerful by voting for only one choice. So approval voting tends to degenerate into FPTP.

Approval voting also allows one to swamp an undesired candidate by voting for a less undesired candidate, or several of them.

Approval voting works for institutions like learned societies whose elections are not felt to be very important. It is not suitable for public elections. I recall that Borda at one point declared that his system was designed for honest people. I would say, not for the real world.

I prefer the approach of the writers of the Federalist Papers, who explicitly recognized the role of baser passions in politics, of faction and vanity and ambition, and aimed at harnessing them to the public good.

Electoral reform has a history of roughly 250 years (more if you count churchmen) and over 100 years of practical experience with superior alternatives to FPTP in public elections. Let's use that experience. Practical electoral reform is more like engineering or medicine than like a theoretical science.

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario

Doug Woodard

quote:


Originally posted by Parkdale High Park:
[b]

Moreover, while PR tends to reduce the salience of regional cleavages (though much less so in MMP), it often amplifies other cleavages, like social class.

[/b]


To what are you referring? Do you think that PR has promoted social conflict in Scandinavia, Holland, Belgium, Switzerland, Germany, Austria and the Irish Republic, compared to Britain, France and the United States?

Is the United States, the supreme example of FPTP, a country of remarkable social peace, or is it a country in which the electoral systm has been manipulated by the business class to achieve political dominance?

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario

enemy_of_capital

I know it would never happen but just a muse. say members who support pr from all the parties got together and set up a parliament of sorts in direct opposition to the bullshit one we have? wont happent but viva the PR revolution if anyone is game!

Threads

quote:


Originally posted by Stunned Wind:
[b]Of course, this includes the second, third, . . . preferences that those candidates receive and not just the first preferences.[/b]

As a note, I've gotten the sense that (at least in Ireland), it's very, very difficult for a candidate to win with much less than half a quota on the first count.

Case in point: only five TDs elected in Ireland in 2007 had less than a half-quota on the first count. Four of the five had at least 0.43 of a quota on the first count, and the fifth had 0.14 of a quota. The one with 0.14 of a quota was Cyprian Brady, a Fianna Fail candidate in the same district as Bertie Ahern, who got 1.84 of a quota. Brady received about a third of Ahern's surplus in transfers on the second count.

And in 2002, there were only 6 with less than a half-quota on the first count. Four of the six had at least 0.46 of a quota. A fifth had 0.38 of a quota: Dermot Fitzpatrick, a Fianna Fail candidate in Bernie Ahern's (1.60 of a quota) district who received about half of Ahern's surplus on the second count.

[ 02 November 2008: Message edited by: Threads ]

Wilf Day

quote:


Originally posted by Threads:
[b]I've gotten the sense that (at least in Ireland), it's very, very difficult for a candidate to win with much less than half a quota on the first count.[/b]

Difficult, but one of the exciting things about watching the count in an STV election is that nothing is impossible. One can say that, statistically, if you get 67% of a quota on the first count, you will likely be elected, but statistics don't determine STV winners. That's one reason why the Irish Greens have done so well in a model with 3-, 4- and 5-seaters: they tend to be the favourite second choice of most other party's voters.

But the all-time great winner was Jane Morrice in 1998 in Northern Ireland, who had 4.8% on the first count, one-third of a quota.

The surprise Northern Ireland Women's Coalition member won miraculously in the least diverse area in Ulster. The posh suburban and seaside North Down stretches from Belfast to Bangor. The only area where Sinn Fein did not run, it is only 8% Catholic, although Catholics provided her crucial victory margin. North Down had sent five men to the Forum (two UUPs, one Alliance, a Paisley man, and hardline Westminster MP Bob McCartney), but this time it saw four serious women candidates pull 21.3% of first-count votes.

A former BBC journalist, she had been head of the European Commission Office in Belfast. Perhaps she had made a better impression than she realized when she got 3% of the vote running for Parliament in 1997 against McCartney.

Morrice and Alliance's Eileen Bell, a District Councillor, both got in. Morrice not only stole the fifth seat from Paisley, but the UUP picked up the sixth seat. McCartney even tried another woman District Councillor, Elizabeth Roche, as his running-mate, almost getting a second seat. Yet in the end McCartney's home sent five pro-agreement members to the Assembly with him, reversing the trend in most other parts of Ulster.

Bob McCartney was almost the biggest winner of this election. At the Forum, the "well-tailored suburban extremist" had won only his North Down seat. This time his men got four more seats, picking up one new one and taking two from Paisley and one from the UUP. (However, his four followers soon left him to form their own Northern Ireland Unionist Party.)

Jane Morrice's chances looked very slim on the first count. She had only 1808 votes (4.8%), running 7th, behind even the SDLP's Marietta Farrell. Worse, a Paisley man was bound to overtake her once one of their two men dropped. On the second count she picked up only 28 votes from Bob McCartney's surplus, and saw Elizabeth only 38 behind her. On the third count Jane got 82 votes from five minor candidates. On the fourth count she fell to 9th place, picking up only 19 votes as the second Paisley man dropped. His transfers put the remaining Paisley man well ahead of her, and even put Elizabeth 61 votes ahead of her.

Jane's tide began to turn on the 5th count. Brian Wilson was a very popular independent member of the District Council from Bangor, polling even more votes for Council than Eileen Bell. A moderate, 45% of his voters made Alliance their second choice. Only 26 of them went to Elizabeth. Jane got a crucial 118 transfers from him, edging 30 ahead of Elizabeth. On the 6th count, after the PUP man dropped, 47% of his transfers went to the UUP. However, 182 (14% of his transfers) went to Jane, finally putting her 38 votes ahead of Marietta, in 7th place again. On the 7th count another very popular independent local councillor, Alan Chambers, who was in 10th place, had finally been eliminated. His supporters were more unionist, and 162 of them transferred to Elizabeth, but Jane got 228 of them. On the 8th count she got 18 from UUP surplus votes.

On the 9th count, the second Alliance candidate had dropped, and most of his 1972 votes transferred to his running-mate Eileen, electing her, but Jane got 242. On the 10th count she got 308 votes from Eileen's surplus, but still trailed Paisley's man by 185 votes. Jane, however, got only 58 transfers when Elizabeth dropped, with 2265 votes to transfer into the 11th count. If Paisley's man had got the rest, Jane would have been toast. However, Paisley's man got only 1253, while 472 went UUP and 474 had no further choices.

Finally, on the 12th count Marietta had dropped. Most of her 2458 voters would have named Eileen their second choice, and 470 of them refused to transfer farther. However, 1812 of them ranked Jane ahead of the unionists, putting her 413 ahead of Paisley's man, although still 475 short of a quota.

To her original 1808 votes, she had added 3090 transfers, about 74% of them transfers from women: 1812 SDLP, 550 Alliance, 346 from the two independents, 182 from the PUP, and 205 others. Just the way feminists hope STV will work. She even stood fifth, 105 ahead of the third UUP man.

Sadly, she could not repeat the miracle in 2003. In 2006 she was appointed as one of the NI representatives on the key EU advisory body, the European Economic and Social Committee.

[ 06 November 2008: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]

Wilf Day

quote:


Originally posted by Noise:
[b]E May bringing it (PR) up in the debate early had several Conservatives I know vote green this election.[/b]

As[url=http://www.rabble.ca/in_his_own_words.shtml?x=76945] Larry Gordon said:[/url]

quote:

Judy Rebick said this is possibly the only issue where grassroots citizens on the left and right have a common cause: fighting for real democratic control over those who currently wield undeserved power in a largely unaccountable system. More importantly, if we don’t build a strong multi-partisan front for fair voting, we will simply never win.

[ 06 November 2008: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]

Wilf Day

Torontoist interviews Jack Layton http://torontoist.com/2008/11/tall_poppy_interview_jack_layton.php

Quote:

The fifth and final part of your expectations for the Harper government is about democratic reform and changing the nature of the minority government situation. What does democratic reform mean to you?

"It means ensuring that when sixty-two percent of the people of Canada want change, they get it. That's what happened in this last election, and they didn't get the change they wanted. Only thirty-seven [percent] voted for Harper. Almost two-to-one people voted against him, and he's in power. South of the border, fifty-two percent of the people wanted change and they got it. So let's have an electoral system that gives effect to the will of the people instead of standing in the way of the will of the people.

Three elections in a row now—in fact, I think we can say four, if we add in the year 2000, maybe even more, but certainly those four—we've had less than forty percent of the people voting for a government, and yet that government gets the power. It's absurd, wrong, and totally undemocratic. Let's grab a hold of this—people can now see how dysfunctional it is—and let's bring proportional representation to Canada, so that political parties can run, they can lay out their program, people can vote for those parties, and their vote will not get essentially cast aside and disrespected by a result that puts in power the very party that was explicitly not the choice of the majority."

In the last election, three out of the five major leaders—you, Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion, and Green Leader Elizabeth May—were explicitly in favour of some form of proportional representation. Why do you think it was a complete non-issue, and has been a complete non-issue in campaigns, even though, for example, Senate reform continues to be a hot-button topic?

"Well, we certainly tried to push it. I think one of the problems has been these referendums that have failed—there have been four of them I think now, three or four—and they're not passing, so people are getting tired of it. But I'm saying, let's find a strategy to get the possibilities for democratic renewal to the forefront again."

So what's that strategy, do you think?

"Well, we had done some work when Ed Broadbent was part of our caucus in the 2004–2006 minority parliament, and we moved it fairly far along. A special committee was set up—we negotiated that into the Speech from the Throne, actually—and Ed and those on the committee brought it all the way back to Parliament. Their recommendations passed Parliament, which were that a special group of Parliamentarians was going to develop a model for proportional representation and bring it back to Parliament, and a group of citizens in an engagement process to identify the fundamental principles that should be at the root of any reform was going to be launched. And all this would have been brought back to the House of Commons to be considered and adopted. But then when Harper was elected, that entire process came to a halt. It hasn't been restarted, and we want to see it be restarted."

Talking about the political culture more generally, Prime Minister Harper has stated that one of his goals is to shift Canada's political culture to the right. Do you think he's succeeding in that goal?

"No, and in fact I think that more and more people are drawing inspiration from what they see happening with [US President-elect Barack] Obama south of the border [as opposed to] what they see happening here."

What do you think is missing from Canada's politics that is present now in the United States?

"A more democratic electoral system that translates the wishes and will of a people into the political system. Like I said before, fifty-two percent of Americans voted for change and they got it. Sixty-two percent voted for change here and we didn't. So we actually had more people who wanted to see change in Canada as a percentage than they did in the States, but yet we end up with a Conservative government because of our electoral system, which is completely warped and wrong."

But probably the key reason why that happened in the US is that they only have two major parties. So is that really a model for us? You've stated that proportional representation is the goal here, but in terms of the responsiveness to change, is the US really a model for Canada?

"I think proportional representation is the model for Canada, because we have a multi-party system and have had for a very long period of time in this country. It's part of our political culture here, going back many decades, and different parties come and go as a part of that process. But what we haven't had is an effective way to translate that process into seats in the House and reflect the democratic will of the people.

It's not that these models don't exist. They exist virtually everywhere else in modern democracies. We are not a modern democracy. We're using a system that was invented before the telephone — which was invented by a Canadian, or in Canada. We certainly make that plain. And, in fact, we've gone on to invent the BlackBerry here. We've gone through quantum leaps to perform in other areas, but we've left a system of representation in place from the Gutenberg era, including an unelected Senate, which is bad enough. But we have a first-past-the-post voting system that even the originators of that system in Britain have begun to replace, in terms of what's been going on with Scotland and Wales, and could well come to Great Britain itself. Who knows? But for heaven's sakes, let's get moving here."

Wilf Day
Cueball Cueball's picture

Quote:
"A more democratic electoral system that translates the wishes and will of a people into the political system. Like I said before, fifty-two percent of Americans voted for change and they got it. Sixty-two percent voted for change here and we didn't. So we actually had more people who wanted to see change in Canada as a percentage than they did in the States, but yet we end up with a Conservative government because of our electoral system, which is completely warped and wrong."

 Sarah Palin? No. Jack Layton! The US electoral system is more democratic?

On the one hand he seems to be arguing for proportional representation, which is good. Then he pops off with this gem, seemingly oblivious to the fact that the reason there are only two parties to vote for in the US is because they are using an 18th century FPTP system. Bizarre.

This guy is a political hazard. This is just so dumb, it's obvious that Jack is just trying to use this opportunity to clamber onto the good vibe of the Obama victory. Sad.

 It's not even clear yet that the Obama victory translates into meaningful change. In other words, people in the US might have voted for "change", but is the system able to deliver?

Fidel

Cueball wrote:

 . Then he pops off with this gem, seemingly oblivious to the fact that the reason there are only two parties to vote for in the US is because they are using an 18th century FPTP system.

The U.S. constitution and three U.S. branches of government are actually the envy of both right and left around the world for a long time.

 And, when was the last time Canadians voted for senators? And how much easier could it be to vote than drive up window voting from your car? The U.S. does spend a lot of time and money on elections. The problem is the funding of presidential candidates' electoral campaigns by billionaire interests, and the large amounts of money actually required to make a serious run for president. Like Canada, the US has their kingmakers and important independent political voices go largely unheard.

Tommy_Paine

Should it be easy, though?  I think it should be easier for new ideas and voices to be heard, but I think a struggle element is also important to democracy. 

 

I think the problem with the lack of democratic reform in Canada is that the proponents of such are not nearly strident enough, and are not prepared to lay more on the line.   

Moderation in the pursuit of liberty is no virtue.

 

 

jrootham

Wilf: OMFG!!!Woot!

Cueball:  That was a simple minded pitch that fit in a sound bite.  It's not good analysis, but it might work.

 Fidel:  The US political system is a disaster and an embarrassment.  Incumbents have more staying power than the old Soviet Politburo.  It's spectactularly corrupt.  It's run by lobbyists.  I want no part of it.  Anybody with any understanding wants no part of it.

 

 

Wilf Day

Tommy_Paine wrote:

I think the problem with the lack of democratic reform in Canada is that the proponents of such are not nearly strident enough, and are not prepared to lay more on the line. 

As Larry Gordon said in the Rabble article that started this thread.

However, I just read a private-list comment by a political scientist who said:

Quote:
If we assume that sometime in the near future we will move toward some form of PR as a means of electing governments (a big assumption, but not a ginormous one I don't think . . . we're slouching toward it slowly), then the parties will have to learn to govern differently.  They will have to learn to govern in coalitions of interests around an agreed upon agenda.

"we're slouching toward it slowly" -- I love it. I'd rather slouch towards PR than slouch towards more one-party governments. Let's start a Slouch Movement. 

 

Wilf Day

Jack Layton in the throne speech debate:

Quote:
    The government has to respect the 62% of Canadians who voted for change. That includes pursuing democratic reform with proportional representation. This Parliament has been asked to set aside its differences and to overcome the old politics of partisan battle. However, that does not mean giving the government the very majority that Canadians refused to give them. The government must compromise. It must work with other parties and opposition must be constructive. New Democrats are the effective opposition. We will challenge the government to do better and to deliver tangible results and real change. We oppose the throne speech because it lacks the bold action that working families need in this time of economic crisis.

   I could say that history will judge us and judge us poorly if we fail the test that we face. However, it is not just history that matters. It is the families that are hurting right now. It is the jobs that are being lost today. It is the fears that Canadians have for their future and their children’s future that matter.

   New Democrats have not forgotten who we are, where we came from, nor whom we represent and we are not about to start forgetting that now. In fact, we are going to bring their concerns to the table every day in the House of Commons. We will never waver from our belief that together we can build a fair and prosperous future for our country and our people.

   Do not let anyone tell you, Mr. Speaker, that cannot be done.

Pages