Is white male hegemony being rocked by this OBama win?
Thu, 2008-11-06 19:12
#1
remind
Is white male hegemony being rocked by this OBama win?
Thu, 2008-11-06 19:12
#2
remind
Women across Canada, do you perceive that white males are reacting very negatively to Obama winning? Do you feel his winning is spelling the demise, or has the potential to bring about the demise of white male hegemony in NA?
As a starting place, I will refer us to the post BCG made earlier today that has been ignored, except for 1 poster, even by those who say they are ultra progressive and leading the way in anti-oppression actions. To me comments made here and elsewhere across the net by mainly white men including Nader's Uncle Tom comments, and other statements/non-statements arising indicate, to me, that many, not all, white men are in shock, and are perhaps in a mode of non-acceptance, as there is very little gracious or supportive about most male commentary, or lack thereof.
Women here, and elsewhere, on the other hand, are extremely supportive and positive about his win and what it could mean to those of us who have long been oppressed by said white male hegemony in NA.
I know we women have long been told we need to be conciliatory to our alleged allies, but I have had a huge eye opening, and feel that indeed that was perhaps just another tactic, to keep the hegemony alive and thriving. With the onus again put on women to make it work, and to take the burden of the failure upon ourselves. Are we are looking for allies in the wrong places?
quote:
Tim Wise on the Obama victory:If you are incapable of mustering pride in this moment, and if you cannot appreciate how meaningful this day is for millions of black folks who stood in lines for up to seven hours to vote, then your cynicism has become such an encumbrance as to render you all but useless to the liberation movement. Indeed, those who cannot appreciate what has just transpired are so eaten up with nihilistic rage and hopelessness that I cannot but think that they are a waste of carbon, and actively thieving oxygen that could be put to better use by others.
This election does indeed matter. No, it is not the same as victory against the forces of injustice, and yes, Obama is a heavily compromised candidate, and yes, we will have to work hard to hold him accountable. But it matters nonetheless that he, and not the bloodthirsty bomber McCain, or the Christo-fascist, Palin, managed to emerge victorious.Those who say it doesn’t matter weren’t with me on the south side of Chicago this past week, surrounded by a collection of amazing community organizers who go out and do the hard work every day of trying to help create a way out of no way for the marginalized. All of them know that an election is but a part of the solution, a tactic really, in a larger struggle of which they are a daily part; and none of them are so naive as to think that their jobs are now to become a cakewalk because of the election of Barack Obama. But all of them were looking forward to this moment. They haven’t the luxury of believing in the quixotic campaigns of Dennis Kucinich, or waiting around for the Green Party to get its act together and become something other than a pathetic caricature, symbolized by the utterly irrelevant and increasingly narcissistic presence of Ralph Nader on the electoral scene. And while Cynthia McKinney remains a pivotal figure in the struggle, the party to which she was tethered this year shows no more ability to sustain movement activity than it was eight years ago, and most everyone working in oppressed communities in this nation knows it.
(snip)
So let us be clear as to what tonight meant:
It was a defeat for the right-wing echo chamber and its rhetorical stormtroopers, foremost among them Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Glenn Beck.
It was a defeat for the crazed mobs ever-present at McCain/Palin rallies, what with their venomous libels against Obama, their hate-addled brains spewing forth one after another racist and religiously chauvinistic calumny upon his head and those of his supporters.
(snip)
It was a defeat for the demagogues who tried in so many ways to push the buttons of white racism–the old-fashioned kind, or what I call Racism 1.0–by using thinly-veiled racialized language throughout the campaign. Appeals to Joe Six-Pack, “values voters,” blue-collar voters, or hockey moms, though never explicitly racialized, were transparent to all but the most obtuse, as were terms like “terrorist” when used to describe Obama. Likewise, the attempt to race-bait the economic crisis by blaming it on loans to poor folks of color through the Community Reinvestment Act, or community activists like the folks at ACORN, failed, and this matters. No, it doesn’t mean that white America has rejected racism. Indeed, I have been quite deliberate for months about pointing out the way that racism 1.0 may be traded in only to be replaced by racism 2.0 (which allows whites to still view most folks of color negatively but carve out exceptions for those few who make us feel comfortable and who we see as “different”). And yet, that tonight was a drubbing for that 1.0 version of racism still matters.
(snip)
And so it is back to work. Oh yes, we can savor the moment for a while, for a few days, perhaps a week. But well before inauguration day we will need to be back on the job, in the community, in the streets, where democracy is made, demanding equity and justice in places where it hasn’t been seen in decades, if ever. Because for all the talk of hope and change, there is nothing–absolutely, positively nothing–about real change that is inevitable. And hope, absent real pressure and forward motion to actualize one’s dreams, is sterile and even dangerous. Hope, absent commitment is the enemy of change, capable of translating to a giving away of one’s agency, to a relinquishing of the need to do more than just show up every few years and push a button or pull a lever.
This means hooking up now with the grass roots organizations in the communities where we live, prioritizing their struggles, joining and serving with their constituents, following leaders grounded in the community who are accountable not to Barack Obama, but the people who helped elect him. Let Obama follow, while the people lead, in other words.
For we who are white it means going back into our white spaces and challenging our brothers and sisters, parents, neighbors, colleagues and friends–and ourselves–on the racial biases that still too often permeate their and our lives, and making sure they know that the success of one man of color does not equate to the eradication of systemic racial inequity.
So are we ready for the heavy lifting? This was, after all, merely the warmup exercise, somewhat akin to stretching before a really long run. Or perhaps it was the first lap, but either way, now the baton has been handed to you, to us. We must not, cannot, afford to drop it. There is too much at stake.
Full article at: Good, and Now Back to Work on Racialicious.com
Thank you for posting this BCG!!!!
[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=13&t=004411]o... thread posting[/url]
[ 07 November 2008: Message edited by: remind ]
Thu, 2008-11-06 19:15
#3
M. Spector
[url=http://theragblog.blogspot.com/2008/11/zwarich-responds-to-tim-wises-opt... progressive responds to Tim Wise[/url]:
quote:
Tim Wise goes well 'over the top' in issuing highly counterproductive and inflammatory categorical denunciations of anyone who has severe misgivings about the irrational jubilation being expressed by progressives over the election of Barack Obama, most of whose major stated policy positions as a candidate were decidedly UN-progressive.In vindictive and self-centered denunciation of legitimate progressive viewpoints that do not happen to conform with his own, Mr. Wise graces us with such edifying thoughts as "those who cannot appreciate what has just transpired are so eaten up with nihilistic rage and hopelessness that I cannot but think that they are a waste of carbon, and actively thieving oxygen that could be put to better use by others", and he actually directly addresses these people, whom he has so narrow-mindedly pigeonholed, according to his own narrow and self-centric perspective, with the crude epithet, "Screw You". With all due respect to Mr. Wise, and the overwrought jubilation he is obviously feeling, this kind of self-important, self-serving rhetoric can only be divisive, and will only serve to inhibit our efforts, as progressives, to find the means to create ongoing organizational unity.
It is no surprise that Mr. Wise, who is identified in the brief bio that accompanies his article as an "anti-racist activist", would offer a largely race-based perspective. There is certainly no harm in that, in and of itself. I hold a great deal of respect for that perspective. But Mr. Wise feels compelled to go far beyond expressing his jubilation, to include a vindictive denunciation of anyone who is looking past this one narrow aspect of the implications of Obama's election.
If we look at what is happening from the post-racial perspective that Barack Obama himself promoted, we might see that beyond the 'victory' that some feel, in that a mixed-race African American has been elected president, Barack Obama has not represented himself as 'progressive' in the most important and defining major policy positions he has established.
In an election cycle that was almost totally focused on 'narrative', and 'character', rather than substance, Mr. Wise categorically denounces, (as nihilists, and with other inflammatory epithets, as well as his provocative "screw you"), those who have looked past the foolishly short-sighted bamboozlement of 'narrative over substance'. Anyone who is willing to maintain Reason in the face of the widespread irrational jubilation we are witnessing, anyone who is willing to look beyond narrative to the actual issues themselves, has every reason to be alarmed, and the irrational exuberance being expressed by so many comprises a significant area of concern in itself. Mr. Wise even goes so far as to castigate anyone who is not participating enthusiastically in this foolish exercise in willfully ignoring reality with his inflammatory denunciations.
[url=http://theragblog.blogspot.com/2008/11/zwarich-responds-to-tim-wises-opt... article[/url]
Thu, 2008-11-06 19:26
#4
quote:
the irrational exuberance being expressed by so many comprises a significant area of concern in itself.
When coming from Whites, I hear sometimes heartfelt solidarity but often a "You've come a long way, Blackie!" paternalist attitude.
It is clear that one can appreciate BOTH the magnitude of the breakthrough achieved and hopes fanned AND the extent of the racism that remains and horrendous aspects of Obama's stated politics. Shouting this down won't do.
[ 06 November 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]
Thu, 2008-11-06 19:28
#5
Maysie
More thoughtful analyses on the Obama win from The Angry Black Woman.
quote:
Last night America elected its first black president. We made history, as everyone still enjoys saying. And I think we’ve earned the right to bask in the glow for a little bit.But listen, there’s still a lot to be done.
First and foremost, it should be stated that, although come January we will have a Black president, that does not mean that racism is “over”. That having a black president does not end the dialogue we have on this blog, on other blogs, and in meatspace about race, prejudice, and the challenges people of color face in this country and the world. Obama’s win only proves that he specifically had what it took to win this election. It wasn’t that any black person could have won, just as not any random woman could have won. McCain made the mistake of thinking that; of looking at people like labels.
So there’s still a lot of anti-racist work to be done. Racism still needs to be eliminated. And while I’m hopeful that having a black president is one major step in that direction, it can also cause a setback as people throw “But we have a black president!” in our faces every time we bring up the deep-seated problems in this country. We can’t let that happen.
Another important thing to remember is that Obama is not perfect and he’s not supernatural. While we can rejoice in his presidency, we can’t cut him any slack. And I think we must be willing, as activists and as non-activists, to work hard for change. He said as much in his speech last night, so let’s hold him to his word. More than ever we need to hold a president to his word this time around.
[url=http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/11/05/its-morning-in-america/]The Angry Black Woman[/url]
Edited to add: Please scroll down the comments to see many critical remarks about Obama's support of Prop 8 in California, and that it will likely be defeated.
[ 06 November 2008: Message edited by: bigcitygal ]
Thu, 2008-11-06 19:38
#6
remind
Thanks mspector, and why I am not surprised that you would be the first to respond in a thread directed towards the women of Canada?
The article was interesting, thank you, but this topic is not about how progressive Obama is, or isn't.
It is about a barrier being broken, and its significance. And women's opinions about it and about how poorly it seems that some progressive men are handling it, and how we women feel about that or perceive it, if indeed others do.
Obama's exploits, or potential exploits, beyond that are another thing entirely and are not the subject of this thread! There are a good many threads going on elsewhere at babble and inded you could have posted this response in the originating thread of the quote. It would have been more appropriate there!
Please do let us explore this on our own, thanks!
Thu, 2008-11-06 19:44
#7
Maysie
Another excellent blog "The Kitchen Table" with Dr. Melissa Harris-Lacewell and Dr. Yolanda Pierce.
quote:
Wed Nov 5:
We, as a nation, are a people of many faiths, religious traditions, creeds, and doctrines. And that diversity is our strength. The black church remains one, but no longer the only, institution dedicated to the cause of freedom and liberation for black Americans. But something is powerfully evoked when we remember and respect this tradition: the black church is a living witness that hope and love always drive out fear. In a campaign season in which fear lurked in every corner and behind every television ad, it was love and hope that prevailed. In a nation in which the threat of terrorism comes from without and from within, it will be hope and love that prevail. In a world in which the rich fear relinquishing power to the poor, it will be hope and love that will cast out all fear.(snip)
Barack Obama has taken a seat at the table of power and he has invited all of us to come along. He could not have won without us. We are equal partners, not junior partners in this historic victory. Obama won with the largest share of the popular of vote of any Democrat since LBJ, he earned a greater percentage of the white vote of any Democrat since Carter, he earned the largest percentage of both the African American and the Latino vote of any candidate in any American election, ever. He has entered and we have come along with him.
(snip)
Thurs Nov 6:
We are both recovering from the stunning joy of watching Obama paint American blue on Tuesday night. But that joy is tempered for me because of the vicious passage of Proposition 8 in California, the ban on same sex adoption in Arkansas, and other anti-gay rights movement victories across the nation on Tuesday.
[url=http://princetonprofs.blogspot.com/]The Kitchen Table[/url]
Thu, 2008-11-06 19:47
#8
A nation which oppresses others can never be free. I am unimpressed by these people who are gushing over their rights and freedoms while hailing the leader who has pledged to militarily consolidate and perpetuate that oppression.
Thu, 2008-11-06 19:48
#9
M. Spector
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]Please do let us explore this on our own, thanks![/b]
Go ahead, knock yourself out. I just thought that a reply directly to the article you posted in the OP was on topic and relevant - or at least as on topic and relevant as the article you posted. You of course would prefer to suppress all views that dissent from yours.
Thu, 2008-11-06 19:59
#10
remind
Thank you again BCG, lots of meat in ABW's posts and in those responding. This pretty much hits how I am feeling.
quote:
am cautiously hopeful that the weight of repression that has been steadily getting heavier for everyone...will get a little lighter, particularly for those who feel it soonest and the heaviest, as the disinfranchised, the poor, the least powerful and influential.
And thought this was very interesting as well:
quote:
It is completely idiotic and useless to start engaging in Oppression Olympics. That said, I’m going to tell you something similar to what I told all my white feminist friends who thought Geraldine Ferraro was right on earlier this year: When we start getting pulled over by the cops for “driving while queer”, when queer people become systematically economically, politically, and judicially marginalized, when queer people have been literally dehumanized for 400+ years, THEN you can start throwing around this “homophobia is worse than racism” crap. Until then, you may want to shut up before you make yourself look like an idiot who’s never taken the time to examine the privilege she does have.
[ 06 November 2008: Message edited by: remind ]
Thu, 2008-11-06 20:16
#11
remind
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
[b]Go ahead, knock yourself out. I just thought that a reply directly to the article you posted in the OP was on topic and relevant - or at least as on topic and relevant as the article you posted. You of course would prefer to suppress all views that dissent from yours.[/b]
Thank you for your respect in bowing out as a male voice. And I am sorry you believe that I want to supress dissenting voices, when all I want to do is hear WOMENS voices about how they feel and perceive what is occuring, or what has potential to occur.
Is that really too much to ask? (rhetorical question that requires no response) No, it isn't to much to ask, nor is it trying to supress dissent when there are other threads ad naseum on the rest of babble where we have heard your male voices over and over again blasting out against Obama, and indeed against women who dare support the symbology of this event.
Thu, 2008-11-06 20:22
#12
remind
BCG, this was another wonderful peice of insight from the Kitchen Table
quote:
In a world in which the rich fear relinquishing power to the poor, it will be hope and love that will cast out all fear.
In my case I reword it as:
In a world in which white men fear relinquishing power to those they have long exploited, it will be hope and love that will cast out all fear.
Thu, 2008-11-06 20:22
#13
ElizaQ
Thanks for starting this thread Remind and thanks for posting both those articles BCG.
I'll be honest when it was fist posted in the other thread I wanted to respond to it but didn't have the energy to deal with the reactions that more then likely would have come of it.
I have yet to see anyone here regardless of how it seems to be interpreted saying that the symbolism or the barrier that it may have broken down means that racism is somehow over or complete 'white' self congratulation.
I've seen it in the media, I've seen it on right wing blogs but not here.
What I have seen are people both female and male attempting to recognize something that I think is significant.
I have no idea if the negative reactions to this discussion or reactions has has to do with a threat to white male hegemony, that may be a be a stretching it but something is going on.
I honestly don't understand though, where the negativity or what I'm at least feeling is an attempt to 'prove' how everyone who expresses a positive reaction is wrong, wrong, wrong.
I also don't understand why it seems to be so wrong to express emotion, as if somehow celebrating or feeling happy, whether it's outright jubilation or cautiously happy and hopeful as if it somehow means that the people expressing that emotion don't understand the wider context and have to be TOLD over and over how completely unwarranted those emotions are.
To me at least it's stifling discussion.
Emotions do have value and for many reasons many different people have reacted to this election on an emotional level. Not everything in this world is a simply intellectual or academic exercise and it does bother me when the emotional level is devalued as not worthwhile or not meaningful.
Thu, 2008-11-06 20:24
#14
M. Spector
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]Is that really too much to ask? (rhetorical question that requires no response) No, it isn't to much to ask, nor is it trying to supress dissent when there are other threads ad naseum on the rest of babble where we have heard your male voices over and over again blasting out against Obama, and indeed against women who dare support the symbology of this event.[/b]
You posted an article by a man in the OP. I posted an article by another man specifically written in reply to that article. You then criticize me for having done the same thing you did to start the thread. That sounds like you are trying to suppress an opposing point of view.
And it is a lie to suggest that I have anywhere on babble criticized women who support Obama. I criticize all genders and races equally for supporting that neoliberal imperialist warmonger.
Thu, 2008-11-06 20:33
#15
ElizaQ
This thread is turning into the same arrogant crapola again.
I'm done posting here.
Thu, 2008-11-06 21:35
#16
remind
quote:
Originally posted by ElizaQ:
[b]This thread is turning into the same arrogant crapola again.I'm done posting here.[/b]
Eliza, I understand what you are feeling, and experiencing, please do not let their actions get to you, your voice is needed, and I have sent you a pm if you are still around.
Thu, 2008-11-06 22:16
#17
I would have been happy if prop 8 passed. No I can't. As a woman, I don't feel alot of white men have problem with Obama's victory. I think alot of them are happy, it depends on if one is progressive or just Liberal.
[ 06 November 2008: Message edited by: babblerwannabe ]
Thu, 2008-11-06 22:21
#18
remind
quote:
Originally posted by babblerwannabe:
[b]I think alot of them are happy, it depends on if one is progressive or just Liberal.[/b]
That is an interesting observation, I had not thought of that aspect.
Sat, 2021-11-27 18:10
#19
.
Sat, 2021-11-27 18:11
#20
.
Sat, 2021-11-27 18:11
#21
.
Fri, 2008-11-07 06:59
#22
quote:
I would have been happy if prop 8 passed. No I can't.
I'm confused - it did pass, the ballot was to "Eliminates Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry" and it passed. Why would that make you happy?
Back to remind's question: I can't believe how many men I know and work with that are beyond pleased and very relieved that Obama won. Many aren't what I would classify as progressive but liberals. But I don't thinks it's because of his skin colour or his gender, I think many would have cheered Clinton if she has won as well. Either would have given hope that maybe the US will join us in this millenium and stop rewarding regressiveness and intolerance. And it feels like a dawn of an era where maybe being stupid won't be rewarded either.
Most really like the fact that Obama and Biden seem smart, intellectual even and are well spoken, more like our party leaders, Palin scared the shit out of everyone I know. They didn't like Bush or Palin's golly gee attitude to everything or that mesage that "God" will kick ass for them all the time.
Fri, 2008-11-07 09:48
#23
Polly B
Well, the white males here are certainly upset about the Obama win - "dontcha know that having him in the white house is going to be bad bad bad for trade and that means that the oil patch is going to tank? That means my paycheque and YOUR paycheque too little lady.
Look, it's already happening and it's only been days".
Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Sorry Remind this is off topic but I had to vent because it was too early in the day to rip the head off the asshat I was talking to.
Fri, 2008-11-07 10:21
#24
Frustrated Mess
Sorry to butt in, but help me out if you can. What exactly is white hegemony and how has Obama rocked it? I assume Obama's cabinet will be majority non-white and at least half will be women? And Obama was brought to power by the money of Wall Street which is not at all a central pillar of white male hegemony, right? Yes, the universe is unfolding as it should.
Fri, 2008-11-07 10:59
#25
quote:
Originally posted by Polly Brandybuck:
[b]Well, the white males here are certainly upset about the Obama win - "dontcha know that having him in the white house is going to be bad bad bad for trade and that means that the oil patch is going to tank? That means my paycheque and YOUR paycheque too little lady.[/b]
That issue has nothing to do with being white or male.
Fri, 2008-11-07 11:02
#26
Polly B
Which is why I apologized for the thread drift. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Fri, 2008-11-07 11:50
#27
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]Women across Canada, do you perceive that white males are reacting very negatively to Obama winning? Do you feel his winning is spelling the demise, or has the potential to bring about the demise of white male hegemony in NA?
[ 07 November 2008: Message edited by: remind ][/b]
Do you really think white males reacted negatively to Obama? I mean, the guy jsut win a major victory for the presidency and set off a celebration we haven't seen since Kennedy. The (largely white) news media has been fawning over him from teh very start and I'm pretty sure keith Olberman was actually masturbating behind his desk when he announced the election results. John McCain gave an incredibly gracious concession speech recognizing the historic nature of teh win. I thought Stephen Harper spoke nicely about Obama.
Every election, by its very nature, is gonna ahve engativity and mudslinging and people angry at the results. But I think there's far LESS anger directed at Obama. Certainly far less anger towards him and hatred of a white male president named George W. Bush. There was far less negativity directed towards him than there was to Bill Clinton or even John Kerry.
I don't know where you're getting this great groundswell of indignation from white males from.
The world is celebrating. Why are you trying to find a dark cloud in the silver lining?
Fri, 2008-11-07 11:56
#28
quote:
Originally posted by bigcitygal:
[b]
Obama’s win only proves that he specifically had what it took to win this election. It wasn’t that any black person could have won, just as not any random woman could have won. McCain made the mistake of thinking that; of looking at people like labels.
[ 06 November 2008: Message edited by: bigcitygal ][/b]
All ANYONE's victory proves is that THEY specifically had what it took to win and doesn't mean that everyone of their race or gender could ahve done it. Bill Clinton's victory doesn't prove that ANY white guy could ahve won; jsut that HE had what it takes. (I'm deliberately excluding Bush because he had many advantages neither Clinton, Obama or 99% of America would have had). Tiger Woods winning golf tournaments dosen't mean that ANY black person could do it. Woods wins because he's a great player with incredible skill who has worked hard for many years. Obama won because he is smart, talented, ambitious, a great campaigner and had the right ideas at the right time. His victory obviosuly doesn't prove that ANY black person can win. It proves that if you, like Obama, are smart, ambitious, talented, ahrdworking and have good ideas, that your race won't be a crushing barrier.
Fri, 2008-11-07 13:57
#29
Maysie
As a point of clarification, I did not say the words that Star Spangled has attributed to me. Those words are quoted by me above, and are from the site The Angry Black Woman and were written by Nora, the author of that blog.
Please be careful when attributing words to me in the future. Thank you.
Fri, 2008-11-07 18:28
#30
I meant, i would have been happy if the proposition did not pass.