Criticisms of Obama from the left
Fri, 2008-11-07 17:03
#1
Left Turn
Criticisms of Obama from the left
Fri, 2008-11-07 17:03
#2
Left Turn
There seems to be an opinion held by a lot of more liberal minded babblers, as well as some liberal minded writers, that criticisms of Obama from the left in the wake of the Obama victory, are just as bad as openly racist criticisms of Obama. I think this opinion is faulty.
The election of Obama does have symbolic significance, first and foremost for African Americans, but also for other marginalized groups as well. This significance needs to be recognized. However, it also needs to be recognized that the significance of Obama's victory is purely symbolic. Because of the platform on which Obama ran, and because the progressive social movements in the US overwhelmingly fell in line with Obama and the Democrats in this election cycle, the election of Obama represents a victory for the American ruling class in their class war against the American working class.
There is nothing wrong with pointing this out in the wake of the Obama victory. While racist critiques of Obama need to be opposed, Obama does not deserve immunity from all criticisms during the period following his election, simply because he is Africna-American. The American ruling class does not deserve the immunity from criticism that such an approach would grant them.
[ 07 November 2008: Message edited by: Left Turn ]
Fri, 2008-11-07 17:19
#3
Do you have any examples where someone has equated criticizing Obama from the left, to criticizing him from a position of open racism?
I worked on the Obama campaign and as an American, I am really excited about his victory. Moreover, from what I have read on babble, I think that many of the posters who have criticized Obama from the left lack a sense of the pragmatic realities of U.S. politics. I think they have also failed to fully grasp the "symbolic significance," as you put it, that a nation originally founded on slavery has actually elected a black president.
That being said, I wouldn't call those posters racist, either, nor would I suggest their critiques were at all intellectually equivalent to such a position. Certainly those posters are horribly misguided, and probably irreconcilable cranks, too. But they're not racists.
Fri, 2008-11-07 17:25
#4
I would agree that there is some symbolic significance, but I would argue that the negatives of that significance alone outweigh the positives.
The symbolic significance doesn't really help the average person of colour in the US, aside from maybe another person of colour has the opportunity and the support from the ruling class to run for President because (s?)he won't have to deal with that "Is America ready" shit. But other than that, the material conditions of people on the ground won't improve any just because of some symbolism.
On the other hand, this will only reinforce the widely held misconception, especially among white people, that racism is over and anyone who brings it up is just "race-baiting" because clearly there is no such thing as racism anymore, aside from perhaps a few silly people in northern Idaho. It could potentially encourage passivity in actual anti-racist organizing.
Fri, 2008-11-07 17:30
#5
For the record, I'm fine with criticism of Obama from the left, and will be engaging in it myself.
The need for pressure and mobilization, now that there's space for growth, is crucial.
Fri, 2008-11-07 17:55
#6
M. Spector
When Kim Campbell became Prime Minister of Canada it was of great symbolic importance also. For the first time ever a woman was permitted by the white male capitalist establishment to assume the most powerful political position in the country.
Now for the first time ever a black man has been permitted by the white male capitalist establishment in the United States to assume the most powerful political position in the country. This is also of great symbolic importance.
What will be Obomba's legacy for African-Americans? It remains to be seen whether it will be any different from Kim Campbell's legacy for Canadian women.
But great symbolic importance? Hell, yes.
Fri, 2008-11-07 18:16
#7
quote:
Originally posted by Left Turn:
[b]There seems to be an opinion held by a lot of more liberal minded babblers...[/b]
Name three. Posts like this that pretend to counter some fictitious position held by "babblers" that remain unnamed are getting beyond tedious. This is baiting. In other words, your premise is dishonest.
Fri, 2008-11-07 18:59
#8
M. Spector
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:
[b]Name three.[/b]
I can't speak for Left Turn, but I couldn't name one babbler, let alone three.
I could, however, name at least one babbler who thinks that white males who criticize Obomba from the left are merely doing so because they fear that he is a threat to white male hegemony, and that their criticisms can therefore be dismissed out of hand. That, to my mind, is perilously close to accusations of racism and seeking to preserve white privilege.
It's also highly insulting to the intelligence of everybody to maintain with a straight face that the election of Obomba poses the slightest threat to the white male plutocracy that runs the US Democratic Party (and financed most of Obomba's campaign), or US society itself.
Fri, 2008-11-07 19:06
#9
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
[b]I could, however, name at least one babbler who thinks that white males who criticize Obomba (sic) from the left are merely doing so because they fear that he is a threat to white male hegemony, and that their criticisms can therefore be dismissed out of hand.[/b]
That has nothing to do with what I posted. And don't use me as a prop in your grudge match with someone who hasn't even posted in this thread. That's dishonest, too.
Fri, 2008-11-07 19:11
#10
I'm certainly not a man (or "male") though I am mostly what is called "white". There is some African ancestry via the Carribean, and no doubt some Aboriginal ancestry via the Quйbйcois branch of family, but I won't pretend to be of colour despite nappy hair.
But I have no truck with bourgeois politics, or USian exceptionalism. I have close ties with militants in the US, and I am well aware both of the searing wound racism is there for any working class movement or working class politics.
But working class politics means breaking with capitalist parties, eh? It saddens me to see people who were on the left falling into backing the party that got the US into Vietnam.
Hey Hey LBJ
How many kids have you killed today?
Yep, I'm old enough to remember that, though I was a young teen.
Fri, 2008-11-07 19:26
#11
M. Spector
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:
[b]That has nothing to do with what I posted.[/b]
It has lots to do with the topic of this thread.
You were the one who asked for the naming of babblers. Now you respond with personal insults when someone complies with your request.
Fri, 2008-11-07 19:29
#12
M. Spector
Lagatta, I want to bear your children.
(But they're probably too heavy.)
Fri, 2008-11-07 19:40
#13
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
[b]Now you respond with personal insults when someone complies with your request.[/b]
Just 'cos it's an insult doesn't mean it's not true. You didn't respond to the question I asked. You made up a question and responded to that instead. I just happen to have the mouth you tried to stuff the question into. You do that all the time and that's why I mostly avoid you. It's a practice I believe I'll resume.
Fri, 2008-11-07 19:46
#14
Ce qui frappe autour d'Obama, c'est la projection dйlirante que les gens font au sujet de sa mince victoire (6% du vote, surtout de nouveaux йlecteurs). Pour les Noirs, je comprends l'importance de ce passage, aprиs des siиcles d'esclavage, de discrimination et de mйpris qui continuent. En fait, leur йmotion n'est pas trиs diffйrente des applaudissements de la collectivitй noire amйricaine quand O.J. Simpson a йtй acquittй il y a 12 ans. Pour une fois, un Noir йchappait au laminoir du racisme, un Noir "gagnait" contre le systиme blanc, mкme si tout le monde savait que c'йtait un assassin. Sa victoire rachetait le meurtre de tous les autres, condamnйs d'avance а cause de la couleur de leur peau ou envoyйs comme chair а canon au Vietnam.
Donc, ce n'est pas la qualitй d'Obama qui a йtй rйellement applaudie - c'est un conservateur populiste avec de bons speechwriters - mais bien un certain recul du racisme et l'avancйe des espoirs du peuple afro-amйricain, bien plus loin que ce qu'avait autorisй la nomination de Clarence Campbell, Colin Powell ou Condoleeza Rice.
Mais il y a autre chose. Beaucoup de Blancs se rйjouissent, malgrй leur racisme - maintenant dйplacй sur les Arabes -, du succиs d'Obama. Pourquoi? Parce que la perspective d'un changement de cap nous dйculpabilise. Elle nous rassure que ces Йtats-Unis, dont nous tettons la culture et les valeurs comme un porcelet sa mиre, ne sont pas ces fascistes finis qui emprisonnent des adolescents, bafouent les conventions internationales, torturent aux quatre coins de planиte, йcrasent des populations civiles sous les bombes, polluent la planиte sans dйrougir et sont en train de jeter а terre notre avenir йconomique en engraissant leurs banquiers et p.d.g. d'entreprises.
La mode Obama, c'est le retour d'un sourire sur le visage du pиre Fouettard, un leader charismatique pour faire passer la pilule. On veut tellement croire а une moralitй des Йtats-Unis - pour qu'ils n'aillent pas plus loin dans l'immoralitй - qu'on affirme n'importe quoi, alors mкme que l'homme au sourire crйdible annonce l'escalade des frappes amйricaines contre l'Afghanistan, le Pakistan, l'Iran?...
Fri, 2008-11-07 19:55
#15
M. Spector
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:
[b]You didn't respond to the question I asked.[/b]
You asked for the names of babblers who believe that criticisms of Obama from the left in the wake of the Obama victory, are just as bad as openly racist criticisms of Obama. I answered that question by saying I couldn't name any. I then pointed out that that doesn't end the matter because some babblers hold positions that are perilously close to that one.
I answered your question. You just didn't like the answer. I didn't try to put any words into your mouth at all. I take full responsibility for all the words I posted in that post.
quote:
[b]You do that all the time and that's why I mostly avoid you. It's a practice I believe I'll resume.[/b]
Try to imagine my disappointment.
Fri, 2008-11-07 19:58
#16
M. Spector
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
[b]... bien plus loin que ce qu'avait autorisй la nomination de Clarence Campbell...[/b]
Clarence Thomas, peut-кtre?
Fri, 2008-11-07 19:59
#17
Martin, that's brilliant, great insight, I agree 100%.
Except it's Clarence Thomas, not Clarence Campbell - although that Freudian slip was brilliant too, given the Maurice Richard riot and the parallel with the phenomenon you're describing.
Fri, 2008-11-07 21:24
#18
Thanks. I corrected that and e-mailed the piece to th dailies. (yeah, Mr. Campbell is still stuck in our collective throat...)
Fri, 2008-11-07 23:10
#19
remind
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
[b]Ce qui frappe autour d'Obama, c'est la projection dйlirante que les gens font au sujet de sa mince victoire (6% du vote, surtout de nouveaux йlecteurs). Pour les Noirs, je comprends l'importance de ce passage, aprиs des siиcles d'esclavage, de discrimination et de mйpris qui continuent. En fait, leur йmotion n'est pas trиs diffйrente des applaudissements de la collectivitй noire amйricaine quand O.J. Simpson a йtй acquittй il y a 12 ans. Pour une fois, un Noir йchappait au laminoir du racisme, un Noir "gagnait" contre le systиme blanc, mкme si tout le monde savait que c'йtait un assassin. Sa victoire rachetait le meurtre de tous les autres, condamnйs d'avance а cause de la couleur de leur peau ou envoyйs comme chair а canon au Vietnam.
Donc, ce n'est pas la qualitй d'Obama qui a йtй rйellement applaudie - c'est un conservateur populiste avec de bons speechwriters - mais bien un certain recul du racisme et l'avancйe des espoirs du peuple afro-amйricain, bien plus loin que ce qu'avait autorisй la nomination de Clarence Campbell, Colin Powell ou Condoleeza Rice.
Mais il y a autre chose. Beaucoup de Blancs se rйjouissent, malgrй leur racisme - maintenant dйplacй sur les Arabes -, du succиs d'Obama. Pourquoi? Parce que la perspective d'un changement de cap nous dйculpabilise. Elle nous rassure que ces Йtats-Unis, dont nous tettons la culture et les valeurs comme un porcelet sa mиre, ne sont pas ces fascistes finis qui emprisonnent des adolescents, bafouent les conventions internationales, torturent aux quatre coins de planиte, йcrasent des populations civiles sous les bombes, polluent la planиte sans dйrougir et sont en train de jeter а terre notre avenir йconomique en engraissant leurs banquiers et p.d.g. d'entreprises.
La mode Obama, c'est le retour d'un sourire sur le visage du pиre Fouettard, un leader charismatique pour faire passer la pilule. On veut tellement croire а une moralitй des Йtats-Unis - pour qu'ils n'aillent pas plus loin dans l'immoralitй - qu'on affirme n'importe quoi, alors mкme que l'homme au sourire crйdible annonce l'escalade des frappes amйricaines contre l'Afghanistan, le Pakistan, l'Iran?...[/b]
[img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]redface.gif" border="0[/img] [img]frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]eek.gif" border="0[/img]
Fri, 2008-11-07 23:33
#20
Left Turn
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:
[b]Name three. Posts like this that pretend to counter some fictitious position held by "babblers" that remain unnamed are getting beyond tedious. This is baiting. In other words, your premise is dishonest.[/b]
I won't name three, but I will say that anyone who supports the arguments made in the Tim Wise article basically holds that position, because that is basically Tim Wise's position.
Sat, 2008-11-08 10:30
#21
ceti
The biggest danger and most scariest prospect is that Obama will turn out to be a Manchurian Candidate for the Liberal-Left (as opposed to a Manchurian candidate that right-wingers got themselves into a lather about). He will like Clinton, suck up all the oxygen on the Left, while giving fresh blood to Bush economic and foreign policies.
This has been demonstrated throughout the campaign where he has tilted further and further to the right when he came under attack by the corporate media or his own right-wing opponents. Now that he faces the toughest prospects of any incoming president since the great depression, we will see his true colours.
Oddly, his identity and the enormous goodwill he enjoys may in fact serve as an invulnerable teflon camouflage for this basic impulse, especially among the young generation who have their new rock star messiah. Black Agenda Report has been ringing this alarm bell for some time on this issue. [url=http://blackagendareport.com/]Check them out[/url].
Sat, 2008-11-08 10:33
#22
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
[b]Thanks. I corrected that and e-mailed the piece to th dailies. (yeah, Mr. Campbell is still stuck in our collective throat...)[/b]
Martin, please - pretty please - when you have time, do an English version. I'd do it myself, but I don't want to miss any of the flavour.
All our previous disagreements are forgotten. Do it! You owe it to babble.
[img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Sat, 2008-11-08 11:34
#23
No time today: I am mothballing the "chalet", packing up and moving back to Montreal for the winter... after a boar mechoui!
Sat, 2008-11-08 12:45
#24
M. Spector
quote:
The intellectuals who, in the name of ‘realism’, support a politician who publicly and openly embraces new wars, billionaire bailouts and for profit, private sector-run health programs are repudiating their own claims as ‘responsible critics’. They are what C. Wright Mills called ‘crackpot realists’, abdicating their responsibility as critical intellectuals. In purporting to support the ‘lesser evil’ they are promoting the ‘greater evil’: The continuation of four more years of deepening recession, colonial wars and popular alienation. Moreover, they are allies of the mass media, major parties and the legal system which has marginalized or outright excluded the alternative candidates, Ralph Nader and Cynthia McKinney, who do speak out and oppose the war, the pro-Wall Street bailouts and propose genuine large-scale public investment in the domestic economy, a universal single payer health program, sustainable and pro-environment economic policies and large-scale, long-term income redistributive policies.[b]What is crass and unacceptable is the argument of these intellectuals[/b], (an insignificant pimple on the Democratic donkey’s rear-end) [b]that for a single moment believe that their ‘critical support’ of the Obama political machine will open space for radical ideas.[/b] The Zionists and civilian militarists totally control Obama’s war policy in the Middle East: There will be no space for peace with Iran, Palestine, Pakistan, Afghanistan or Iraq. Wall Street controls the Obama’s financial policy: There will be no space for some Cambridge progressive to sneak in a handout for families losing their homes.
[b]If multi-million trade union treasuries have spent a hundred million dollars on each presidential campaign have failed to secure a single piece of progressive legislation in over 50 years, isn’t it delusional for our progressive ‘public intellectuals’ to imagine that they, in their splendid organizational isolation, can ‘pressure’ President Obama to renounce his advisers, backers and public defense of military escalation, to see his way to peace with Iran and to promote social justice for our workers and unemployed?[/b]
[url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=10749]James Petras[/url]
Sat, 2008-11-08 13:46
#25
So i guess there is just no hope at all then.
Sat, 2008-11-08 14:01
#26
Given the definition of hope on this board, not a lot in general, and almost none on foreign policy.
What can we hope for? The main thing is the clean up of DOJ. That will trigger the enfranchisement of a lot of people currently shut out of voting.
The shit may have hit the fan with enough force in the economy to send some people to jail and make it clear what is happening there. With luck Obama may be forced to go that route.
What we have avoided with Obama's victory is the road to Gilead.
Sat, 2008-11-08 14:04
#27
Frustrated Mess
Hope is for the hopeless.
Sat, 2008-11-08 14:14
#28
I really think you must have that backwards or something.
Sat, 2008-11-08 14:21
#29
I mean it sounds like what the Obama "realists" are saying, is that the election process is totally managed and controlled--meaning that no candidate who is not a corporate proxy could ever be elected. And that there's no way that any real progressive could bust into that system.
So that's it then right? We're all fucked, and there's no pointing in even trying? We may as well just all accept that we are under control. Change is just not possible.
Anyone want to endorse that?
Sat, 2008-11-08 14:22
#30
he finds cynicism funny - hahaha
Sat, 2008-11-08 14:31
#31
Cynicism has advantages and disadvantages just like any other perspective.
I just want to make sure my cynicism serves me rather than the opposite.
Sat, 2008-11-08 14:45
#32
Frustrated Mess
quote:
Change is just not possible.
I think you should re-read the article posted by Spector. In particular, "... Ralph Nader and Cynthia McKinney, who do speak out and oppose the war, the pro-Wall Street bailouts and propose genuine large-scale public investment in the domestic economy, a universal single payer health program, sustainable and pro-environment economic policies and large-scale, long-term income redistributive policies."
It is unreasonable to demand change from the guardians of the status-quo.
Sat, 2008-11-08 15:00
#33
Nader and McKinney are saying great things--but they're running in the same electoral system as Obama and McCain. What level of support do you think the Green party can get before being co opted? Our Green Party leader endorsed the Liberal leader and they're cracking 7%. You don't like how watered the NDP policies are at 18%. Once a politial party reaches a certain size, in come the hacks. You know this.
So how can i look at Nader and McKinney as any kind of solution? They're only able to say those things because they have very little support.
Sat, 2008-11-08 15:47
#34
remind
quote:
Originally posted by wage zombie:
[b]Nader and McKinney are saying great things--[/b]
Don't know about McKinny, but Nader is saying "great things" like calling Obama "Uncle Tom".
quote:
[b]but they're running in the same electoral system as Obama and McCain. What level of support do you think the Green party can get before being co opted?[/b]
One wonders how some seem to fail to take this into consideration, eh?!
quote:
[b]how can i look at Nader and McKinney as any kind of solution? [/b]
One can't realistically and honestlty, but some sure like to tilt at their windmills.
Moreover, when Nader is on Fox news spewing racist trash at Obama, why would one to look there anyway?
[ 08 November 2008: Message edited by: remind ]
Sat, 2008-11-08 15:51
#35
M. Spector
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]Don't know anout McKinny, but Nader is anyway, "great things" like calling Obama "Uncle Tom".[/b]
This is a [url=http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/11/unspinning-fox-news/]scurrilous lie[/url] promulgated by Faux News.
Interesting to see you acting as their mouthpiece here.
Sat, 2008-11-08 16:07
#36
remind
Thanks for providing the proof of this, mspector, so I did not have to go and find the thread it was in. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
quote:
Try reading what Nader actually said rather than hearing what Fox News wanted you to hear:Fox News: Guess who’s here? The Independent party candidate, Ralph Nader. This is his second run for the Presidency since he played spoiler in the close 2000 contest. This year he was on the ballot in 45 states plus D.C. This year he was polling about 1-percent. Ralph, you spoke to Fox News Radio’s Houston affiliate today, and said this:
Ralph Nader: To put it very simply, he is our first African American president; or he will be. And we wish him well. But his choice, basically, is whether he’s going to be Uncle Sam for the people of this country, or [b]Uncle Tom [/b]for the giant corporations.
Yep, I did read that yet again, and just as it did the couple other times I read it, it has Nader using a racist term in respect to Obama.
quote:
Uncle Tom is a pejorative for a black person who is perceived by others as behaving in a subservient manner to White American authority figures, or as seeking ingratiation with them by way of unnecessary accommodation.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncl...
Sat, 2008-11-08 16:10
#37
ElizaQ
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
[b]This is a [url=http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/11/unspinning-fox-news/]scurrilous lie[/url] promulgated by Faux News.Interesting to see you acting as their mouthpiece here.[/b]
His actual words:
But his choice, basically, is whether he’s going to be Uncle Sam for the people of this country, or Uncle Tom for the giant corporations.
Not exactly a whole lot better. It was still a completely asshole and idiotic way to convey his message.
The point is, stuff like this isn't going to win you any favor and it's not the first time he's acted and sounded like a arrogant jerk.
His message is good and sound, delivery...not so great.
Might be appealing to some because of him 'sticking it to the man and speaking the truth'
If I sit down and read Nadar's positions I'm well impressed and they fit with my viewpoint on a whole lot of things. If I listen to him or see how he goes about expressing them, its a real turn off.
If I as someone who actually thinks he's right has problems with it I can't imagine what people who are needing to politically convinced to support him think.
Sat, 2008-11-08 16:12
#38
Conditionally, and I suspect Nader knows how insulting it is, which is kind of his point.
Nader's being a little formally logical in his language, but it seems clear that it is not having the effect he wants (which is for Obama NOT to be an Uncle Tom).
Sat, 2008-11-08 16:17
#39
ElizaQ
quote:
Originally posted by jrootham:
[b]Conditionally, and I suspect Nader knows how insulting it is, which is kind of his point.Nader's being a little formally logical in his language, but it seems clear that it is not having the effect he wants (which is for Obama NOT to be an Uncle Tom).[/b]
Which goes to my point. Message good but the way it comes out discounts it and he comes off as being a smuck, except to his most diehard supporters.
Sat, 2008-11-08 16:17
#40
Nader's statement is racist. He wouldn't have said it about a white President-Elect. Period.
He lost my respect when he walked away from actually trying to build a third force in American politics, and ran a simple vanity campaign with no eye to the future.
This latest intervention is a sad, and I predict final, chapter in Nader's long and distinguished public life.
Sat, 2008-11-08 16:21
#41
M. Spector
Well, the cheerleaders for the Faux News school of falsification are out in force tonight.
Sat, 2008-11-08 16:23
#42
Yes, that's a very accurate description of my politics. [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
One doesn't have to support Faux to think racism is racist.
Sat, 2008-11-08 16:27
#43
ElizaQ
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
[b]Well, the cheerleaders for the Faux News school of falsification are out in force tonight.[/b]
Can you actually watch a video? Like see and hear things with your own eyes? Because I can and unless you are suggesting that Faux News used CGR and special effects to 'fake' what he said, he said it.
How in the heck is that being false? Did he say those comments or not?
Nice strawman though or maybe spin is a better word.
[ 08 November 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]
Sat, 2008-11-08 16:32
#44
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
[b]Nader's statement is racist. He wouldn't have said it about a white President-Elect. Period.[/b]
Why not? If I wanted to be really insulting in describing someone from an oppressed group sucking up to power that's the term I would use.
Is there a race neutral term with the same meaning that is anywhere near as insulting?
Sat, 2008-11-08 16:34
#45
While a racist is always an idiot, not all idiots are racists.
Sat, 2008-11-08 16:35
#46
How about "suck up"? Toady? Stooge? Pawn? Sell-out? Bought and paid for? Corporate hack? Tool? Useful idiot?
Anything but racist insults?
Sat, 2008-11-08 16:35
#47
Cueball
Well, I kind of have a different take on the whole Nader statement. I think likely it was an explicit reference to racism, not racism per se. I think naturally this statement should have come from a member of the black community in the US. But I think that in the present circumstances any Black political activist would politically hamstrung to say anything of that nature. Furthermore, I don't think Nader would have got to make the point he made on Faux news had he said anything but something provocative and indeed, very nasty.
I think it was meant to hurt. And I think Obama was meant to hear it, as I am sure he did. But really, who else in the entire American political sphere is positioned to make that point, and get coverage on on Faux news, or anywhere?
Now, I would certainly not have said anything at all like that, but on the other hand, I think that Nader believed that the value of the political point, and gaining the platform to make it, outweighed othe considerations, and I am absolutely sure it did not come from a racist place, but from an old guard politician who is on the way out, and had one last opportunity to make a clear statement about the nature of race and racism in America and its relationship capitalism, in a sea of self-congratulation, fireworks and spectacle.
[ 08 November 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Sat, 2008-11-08 16:37
#48
ElizaQ
quote:
Originally posted by jrootham:
[b]Why not? If I wanted to be really insulting in describing someone from an oppressed group sucking up to power that's the term I would use.
Is there a race neutral term with the same meaning that is anywhere near as insulting?[/b]
So then my question which is an issue that always comes up here, how 'progressive' is the use of 'ironic' racism to make a point?
And I can think of one, which would have the same meaning and speak to large audience who understand it, as well as it's use as an insult in the American myth and lexicon. "Benidict Arnold"
Sat, 2008-11-08 16:38
#49
quote:
Is there a race neutral term with the same meaning that is anywhere near as insulting?
Benedict Arnold?
Sat, 2008-11-08 16:39
#50
Cue, I think that is a really generous view of Nader's political acumen. And even if you're right, I still deplore it. It cheapens both race and class politics in the United States.
Sat, 2008-11-08 16:40
#51
Cueball
Are you saying to me that if Nader had said anything other than that, that his statement would have been covered, at all?