Student Day of Action - Nov 5

It was Bob Rae's federal NDP government which signed us up for NAFTA and GATS and a slew of neoliberal policies since the 1980s-90s. There was way too much money for social programs, and so Rae's feds stole billion$ and billion$ in order to pay for more corporate welfare and tax cuts for rich and influential friends of the NDP. 

genstrike wrote:

Okay, there is one little thing that bugged me about this. Whose bright idea was it to invite education minister Peter Bjornson to speak? I mean, if you're planning an anti-war rally, you don't invite Peter MacKay to speak. Although I suppose I did have some fun heckling him and shouting profanities at him while he was speaking.

And on the subject, what the hell was Jon Gerrard doing at the rally? His campaign platform last time around was to raise tuition, so why did he even come to the rally? How desperate are the Manitoba Liberals? Although at least he was honest about wanting to raise tuition, unlike the PCs and the NDP.

 I suppose it could be argued that they wanted to ensure Bjornson heard their concerns. Maybe they felt if they could win an ally in high places.

 As for Gerrard, He's a Liberal, and for the Liberals it's all about saying nice things and being all things to all people without any principles to back them up. Is Diane McGifford still in the Advanced Education portfolio? She was when I was going to Brandon University, and she's awful in that file. Even if a PC won, I wouldn't have minded seeing her lose her seat.

genstrike wrote:

I guess we know what side you are on.  Not the students side, that's for sure.

Ya we know whose side you're on, too.

from Paul MartinTime.ca:

Quote:

 In fact, in one year alone (2002), Paul Martin orchestrated enough of these tax cuts, [b]$20 billion dollars[/b] worth, to eliminate tuition fees for every university student in Canada four times over.

How else does one explain Martin’s callous cuts of over $[b]7 billion[/b] from post-secondary education between 1993 and 2000?

genstrike wrote:

[

So, is this a lame-ass attempt to accuse me of being a Liberal, which is absolutely incorrect, then smear me for my nonexistant affiliation with the Liberal party.

I think students across Canada need reminding which two old line parties are the source cause of huge funding cuts to post-secondary education since the very ideologically-driven [b]federal[/b] Conservative and Liberal governments of the 1980's and 90's:

Quote:

 

Difficulties began to appear on the horizon when the Mulroney government, in 1986, limited post-secondary-related cash transfers to the provinces to growth in the economy minus two percent. Matters became more worrisome in 1989, when further cash transfer cuts were announced, and in 1991 when the Established Programs Financing was frozen altogether.

These difficulties became [b]a crisis in 1996 when Finance Minister Paul Martin consolidated all federal cash transfers for post-secondary education, health and social services[/b] into one unconditional block transfer – the Canada Health and Social Transfer - and reduced the transfer by [b]$7 billion.[/b]

We all know the result. With the exception of British Columbia (until its present government was first elected) and of Quebec (which has retained a commitment to ensuring access), [b]tuition fees have sky-rocketed[/b] across Canada – increasing [b]135%[/b] between 1991/92 and 2005/6. . .

But then you would then attempt to transfer blame for this mess onto the shoulders of provincial NDP (and other) governments short-changed by successive [i]federal[/i] Liberal governments since the 1990s. You just don't make any sense, genstrike. As the Mackenzie King Liberals once told the CCF about increased funding for seniors, "Money doesnt grow on trees" And that is even more true since Canada's money supply was privatized in 1991. The very ideologically driven Liberals could have raised the money through taxation, but instead chose multi-billion dollar tax cuts for big business and banks, and for friends of the party who didn't need them.

If Paul Martin had been CEO of a corporation and killed revenues the way he reduced them in Ottawa, and thereby slashing investment in subsidiary provincial operations ie. the "branch plants" - they'd have fired him.

Needless to say, Paul Martin was a Liberal not an NDPer.

Paul Martin as Finance Minister

Quote:

We also have to debunk the myth that Paul Martin was a great finance minister. He does not deserve the plaudits he received for eliminating the deficit. [b]He pushed the line that we Canadians had been living too high off the hog, and now we had to tighten our belts and reduce our expectations. He disrupted the lives of thousands of civil servants whom he fired, slashed programs and downloaded others to the provinces without the funds to support them,[/b] in effect transferring his debt problems to the provinces and territories. He did all this even though he knew he had an alternative

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/multimedia/ontario-students-rally-lower-tuition-fee...

Students rally in 14 Liberal Ontario cities to protest high tuition fees

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v697/rabblerabble/GATS.jpg[/IMG] 
International Handbook of Globalisation

Top ten reasons Manitobans gave Gary Doer a historic third- majority government :

1. Created 6,500 jobs every year
2. Dramatically cut health care wait times – giving Manitobans the shortest waits for cardiac bypass surgery in Canada
3. Provided international award-winning environmental leadership – cleaned up Manitoba’s land, air and water and dramatically increased use of clean energy
4. Cut child poverty by one-third
5. Increased the minimum wage by 33%
6. Kept promise to cut and freeze tuition fees
7. Doubled child care funding and created 7,000 new spaces
8. Created 1,900 new apprenticeships, bursaries and scholarships
9. Made life more affordable – giving Manitobans among the lowest hydro rates, car insurance, child care costs and gas taxes in Canada
10. Balanced the province’s books every year

Fidel wrote:

And I think you should get it thru your thick head that provincial government policies are affected by federal funding, especially since Liberal deals for NAFTA and GATS. Look it up some time about [b]"unfair trade subsidies and taxation."[/b] And by the way, I think I've seen better heads on thumb tacks.

Fidel, did you know that among those who criticize the NDP are former elected politicians who know exactly how the system works? If these people, who understand the behind-the-scenes bureaucratic realities and the demands of realpolitik are criticizing the party, what does that tell you?

genstrike wrote:

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Fidel, did you know that among those who criticize the NDP are former elected politicians who know exactly how the system works? If these people, who understand the behind-the-scenes bureaucratic realities and the demands of realpolitik are criticizing the party, what does that tell you?

For example, I should add that the article that I quoted from was written by a former NDP MLA in the Schreyer government, who also criticized the NDP from the left while he was in government.

Additionally, former NDP MLA Marianne Cerilli has also criticised the direction of the NDP under the Doer government as well.

genstrike wrote:

Yes, I am really against the neoliberal globalization agenda.  I helped organize anti-SPP protests.

And get it through your thick fucking skull, I am not a Liberal or a Liberal supporter. 

 Nobody here called you a Liberal Party shill, so don't wet your pants. You could be a conservative party supporter for all I know. But Doer did not carry through with Paul Martin's rightwing Liberal government agenda. Doer did NOT gut social transfers for social programs, including post-secondary ed, to the tune of TENS OF BILLIONS of DOLLARS.

genstrike wrote:

I already explained that Gary Doer has continued that agenda and has cut taxes (which have primarily benefited the rich), eliminating enough money from the public purse to pay tuition at least four times over

 That is a bald-faced lie, and your attempt to mislead and misinform babblers is duly noted. Gary Doer's provincial government can't replace what was stolen from PSE by the Paul Martin Liberals anymore than he can replace the tens of billions of dollars stolen from health care and UI-EI-Oh by previous federal Liberals.  

Quote:

[url=http://www.campaign2000.ca/si/mb/mbe.html]Campaign 2000[/url]: (2005) 

While improving access to post secondary education for all Manitobans is a key priority of the Department of Advanced Education and Training and the Province of Manitoba, according to the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives – Manitoba, it is unlikely that the provincial government will be willing to invest necessary resources that post secondary institutions in the province are requesting. They cite the reason that [b]Manitoba already has higher per capita spending on PSE than any other province (The State of Public Services Manitoba, 2004).[/b] CCPA – MB argues that it seems inevitable that the tuition freeze will eventually end in the province unless sufficient resources are provided by the federal government in support of post secondary education

 The federal Liberals signing on to NAFTA and GATS agreements placed repressive restrictions on public sector expansion and powers of taxation across provincial and territorial governments in Canada. If provinces don't have the money to spend on social programs and education, I'm not sure how your bs about Gary Doer is relevant. Massive cutbacks at the federal level have placed constraints on provincial governments' abilities to fund post-secondary. Large provinces have larger tax bases and more fiscal elbow room than smaller provinces, but even Ontario and Quebec are struggling with PSE, childcare, affordable housing, and infrastructure funding shortages. In fact, the previous Liberal government in Ottawa produced a [b]$130 billion dollar infrastructure deficit[/b] across Canada as its legacy. Of course, I do understand this will fall on deaf ears.

I  agree, genstrike. Canadian students should absolutely NOT, under any circumstances, vote Liberal ever again. I think students have learned this lesson well. 

Solidarnosc!

On February 2, 2004, in his first Speech from the Throne as Prime Minister Paul Martin promised to increase student debt by increasing student loan limits

[url=http://www.unitetheright.ca/][img]http://www.unitetheright.ca/img/samete...

genstrike wrote:

 

In this thread you have constantly insinuated it in almost every post.  In other threads, you have come out and said it.

Well I didn't call you any bad names in this thread. You've never had the personal conviction or integrity to say which party you support, so how can anyone know where you stand politically including yourself? But I have noticed plenty of rabid and unsupported anti-NDP rhetoric from you.  

Quote:

[And Doer did eliminate hundreds of billions of dollars from the treasury through tax cuts, which do nothing to benefit low income people.

Manitoba has not pursued neoliberal baloney for "new public management" to the same degree that Alberta and Ontario have since the 1990s. As a result, you still have one of the lowest costs of living in Canada, including post-secondary education with the NDPs 60% tax rebate on tuition fees. Students in the rest of Canada can only dream of Manitoba style savings on education.

Quote:

No, it is not a lie.  You just think it is because it contradicts your fairy tale world.  You are the one trying to misinform babblers here, not me.  You know that the truth is problematic to you, so you simply try to falsely accuse me of lying.

Okay maybe you just dont understand what you're talking about. That's always possible. 

Quote:

So, why do you make excuses like this for Gary Doer, but not, say, Dalton McGuinty?  Is it only because of the colour of their tie?

McGuinty has stopped some of Mike Harris' neoconservative/neoliberal policies but not all. Ontario has a much larger tax base than Manitoba, but at the same time Ontario still gives more in tax revenues to the feds than we receive in transfer payments. Layton says we need a more equitable revenue sharing scheme for all provinces and territories.

Quote:

  Hell, Gary Doer has reduced corporate taxes by 4%.  So, when Paul Martin does it, it is evil, but when Gary Doer does it, it is okay?

Gary Doer doesnt have the authority to raise overall Canadian tax revenues to just the OECD average as a percentage of national GDP, which would represent an additional $35 billion dollars for Ottawa to redistribute to provinces.

Gary Doer's MNDP doesn't have the authority to raise federal tax revs to even the EU-15 average - which could represent another $75 billion in federal revenue. 

We need strong federal government to commit to fair and equitable policies across Canada instead of pitting province against province for lowest costs of doing business. Manitoba's business tax is still a couple of percent higher than Ontario's manufacturing tax at 12 percent - and combined with the federal rate of 22 percent, Liberal Ontario's manufacturing and processing tax rate is still lower than most Northern US states. And the race to the bottom isnt producing any results so far. Be glad Philmon conservatives didn't feel they had public consensus to sell off Manitoba Hydro after handing MTS, the most profitable public enterprise in Manitoba, to rich friends of the party at rock bottom price. There went Manitoba's chances for lowest of low PSE costs in addition to your already mambo-low cost of living in Manitoba under NDP government.

Quote:

Regarding the tuition rebate, it has some major problems.  First being that people need to pay tuition long before they graduate, so it doesn't really help people afford it because they can't get the money in time.

The overall neoliberal-neconservative ideology isn't serving Canadians well today. We have one or  two provinces with booming economies due to what was, or at least until recently, high world energy prices boosting  the Canadian dollar and hurting exports. Those unemployed Manitobans won't be moving to Liberal Ontario and finding good jobs in large numbers anytime soon

Quote:

And I don't suppose you want to answer the questions I asked, do you?

You havent pointed us to any grass greener provinces, and you haven't addressed a single thing I've said about CUSFTA-NAFTA or WTO-GATS restrictions on public sector expansion or taxation as "unfair subsidies", so it's not a real debate for all intents and purposes. You can lay all the blame for what's wrong across Canada on the Manitoba NDP, but it doesnt make any sense.

genstrike wrote:

You have constantly insinuated that I am a Liberal and a supporter of Liberal policies in this thread in order to discredit me, even after I had made it abundantly clear that I am not.  In other threads, you have called me a Liberal shill.

Well I don't recall calling you a Liberal shill. As for discrediting you, I think you're working toward that end all by yourself.

Quote:

 Furthermore, what you call "rabid anti-NDP rhetoric" is what I call a fair criticism of the provincial government.  It doesn't matter to me what party does it.  I criticize people who want to raise my tuition, and I don't give two shits what party they belong to.

Manitoba has third lowest undergrad tuition fees in Canada.  And if you factor in the NDP's whopping 60% tax rebate, it's even lower than Quebec fees over the long haul. Boo-hoo? That's besides enjoying one of the lowest overall costs of living in Canada!  Be careful what you wish for with the alternatives. 

Quote:

Also, my case is not unsupported.  I have been providing support for my case throughout.  Are there any specific facts which you would like to question?

No that's okay, because I found out for myself that only one province has an overall corporate tax rate higher than 30 percent, and that's Liberal Ontario cutting themselves in for about 12 percent of the action and feds taking the rest. Dion's Liberals wanted even deeper corporate tax cuts than the Harpers were prepared to enact a few years ago.

Quote:

Unfortunately, the Liberals promised to slash corporate taxes “deeper than the Conservatives”.  Indeed, half of the Conservative corporate tax giveaway was originally introduced in the 2005 Liberal budget but stopped by an NDP amendment.  The Liberals allowed the 2008 Conservative budget to pass and voted against a subsequent NDP motion to not implement the corporate tax reductions.

Clearly, electing more New Democrats is the only way to redirect funds away from corporate tax cuts and toward the priorities of working Canadians. USW

I purposely didn't embolden "Liberals" because I know how upset you get with the very mention of the word.

Quote:

But in this statement, you agree that they have pursued it to a degree.  Is that still not wrong?  Or do you think some degree of neoliberalism is okay, but you just think people have gone too far with it in recent years?

I actually meant to say that Manitoba's conservatives started down the road of "some" neoliberal reforms but not all, and it was for politically motivated reasons. They knew if they did the full recipe for neoliberal that it would hurt their chances for re-election. It's why the very profitable public utility, MTS, was sold off to their friends at firesale price but not Manitoba Hydro. Your conservatives didn't do neoliberal like our two old line parties have done to Ontario and are now stalled or backing away from. They didn't do neoliberal in Alberta really until Ralph Klein, a real neoconservative himself not the sneaky underhanded kind promising leftwing policies and then governing on the right.

Quote:

No, it is you who either doesn't understand or can't admit what is really going on in Manitoba.  I live in this province, I know what is going on. 

Okay you win. I can't admit that what you think is going on in Manitoba isnt going on to a greater extent in provinces which swallowed neoliberal bobka and where tuition fees are higher, and where child and adult poverty is so pervasive, and in Ontario where we've been hemorrhaging good-paying steady jobs steady since 2002. 

genstrike wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Gary Doer doesnt have the authority to raise overall Canadian tax revenues to just the OECD average as a percentage of national GDP, which would represent an additional $35 billion dollars for Ottawa to redistribute to provinces.

Gary Doer's MNDP doesn't have the authority to raise federal tax revs to even the EU-15 average - which could represent another $75 billion in federal revenue.

But Gary Doer does have the authority to raise or lower Manitoba's corporate taxes.  He chose to lower them, which eliminated $800 million from the budget which could eliminate tuition probably 4-6 times over, or prop up our healthcare system, or build social housing. 

When someone sees the corporate tax rate after years of Filmon and thinks it needs lowering, he doesn't have a socialist bone in his body.

But Doer's corporate tax rate is combined with a larger federal rate and still has to be competitive with other provinces, or the industries privatized since Philmon will threaten to layoff workers and flee the province for greener pastures. It's not as easy as you think with this neoliberalized setup. Doer's manufacturing investment tax credit is actually something we should be doing in Liberal Ontario and are not as we continue to bleed jobs.

Quote:

How would you feel if the real Fidel just said "Well, there aren't any other places that are an ideal society.  Besides, at least Batista isn't as bad as the Duvaliers next door"

Who were two brutal rightwing dictators among dozens who were propped up by uncle Sam? What do I win? 

Quote:

I am not talking about NAFTA or any other alphabet soup of trade agreements because that is not what this thread is about.  While those issues are somewhat connected, the provincial government still has jurisdiction over, and therefore carries most of the responsibility for education.

It's just that the federal government isn't funding PSE or a slew of vital social spending like it once did thru transfer payments. But they still exact a pound of flesh in tax revenues from the provinces, especially with the 19-22 percent federal corporate tax rates and then letting the provinces duke it out over who has the most inviting provincial rates with the devil in Ottawa their advocate.

Quote:

All you are doing is trying to blame anything but Doer.  Which is interesting because you also praise Ontario students for doing the exact same thing.  We both know that the only issue here for you is the colour of their ties, and if Doer was wearing a red tie you would be agreeing with everything that I have written so far.

That's funny, because I'm trying to place blame so liberally where I think its been earned, and you try to focus off of Ottawa and back on to Gary Doer's provincial NDP, as if every other province is doing something better than Manitoba's third-lowest tuition fees(and lower still if considering Doer's whopping 60 percent tax rebate on tuition fees up to $25, 000 dollars or so)

Quote:

And nice strawman there, I am not blaming everything that is wrong with Canada on the Manitoba NDP.  But they do deserve blame for things they have responsibility over.  You are simply trying to absolve the Manitoba NDP of any responsibility.

Likewise, I lay liberal amounts of blame at the feet of federal Liberals, and you blame Doer's provincial NDP. Go figure. But you still have no idea, so I'll have to cut you some slack for your blissful outlook in Manitoba, home to cheap car insurance - some of the lowest daycare fees - mambo low utility rates and not too shabby a deal on tuition rebates.

Bush is gone, happy happy happy wrote:

don't mess with a propagandist.

How's this for propaganda from UofO, somebody named "Bill Graham".

Western Premiers Want Funding Restored - UofOttawa

Quote:

Canada's Western premiers and territorial leaders were unanimous in their economic call-to-arms for the restoration of the missing $3.7 billion in federal transfer payments at their annual conference last month. Following close on the heels of Martin's recent largesse which restored $2.5 billion to the health care system the leaders made it evident obtaining federal funds for post-secondary education was now a priority.

Although there is no clear mandate of how to allocate the funds for post-secondary education, health and social assistance, it was clear the premiers want the full restoration of the $6.2 billion cut since Mulroney's infamous budget of 1995.

This person was apparently so concerned about the billions of dollars stolen from federal social transfers to the provinces for post-secondary back then that he took it upon himself to make the federal Liberal budget of 1995 a Mulroney Conservative one! It's Orwellian to say the least. We know the two old line parties are indistinguishable in many ways, but this is ridiculous!

genstrike wrote:

Regarding the tuition rebate, it has some major problems. First being that people need to pay tuition long before they graduate, so it doesn't really help people afford it because they can't get the money in time. I've talked to people who have had to work two jobs, sell their livestock, cancel Christmas, or go to food banks in order to make their January tuition payment. The promise of money in a few years doesn't help them with their immediate problems. In addition, it does nothing to help those students who for whatever reason can't find a job in their field in Manitoba and have to move.

That's right, and Manitoba students can even go to school out of province and still use Manitoba NDP's 60% tax credit in their home province. Not paying enough tax in a particular year to take advantage of the $2000 dollar annual limit? No problem, what's leftover can be forwarded to the next tax year. In this way, Manitoba students will pay the lowest undergraduate tuitions in Canada over four years on average.

And if former students can't pay up after graduation, then the federal NDP has proposed a two year time limit for declaring personal bankruptcy. It was ten years, and now our Liberal Senators in Ottawa saw fit to reduce it to seven years. The NDP says it's still an oppressive rule and points to the two year time limit for first time business bankruptcies. If the student isn't in a paying job after two years, then why wait seven years. http://www.senatehalloffame.ca Those overpaid old codgers shining up to their friends in bankland need cleaning out of Ottawa but good. Just an expensive Shady Pines for old line party hacks and have no place in a modern democracy. Canadian students pay highest interest rates on student loan debts in a comparison of richest countries, and our two old line parties are directly responsible for the oppressive situation faced by Canadian students today.  

How ongoing Globalisation and GATS threaten post-secondary education in Canada (2001, pdf) 

Quote:

The ‘liberalisation’ of Services

3. Unlike NAFTA, the GATS agreement specifically targets subsidies and taxation measures as trade barriers.

4. GATS is not final. Its goal is “a progressively higher level of liberalization”

Raise tuition fees: Quebec liberal youth

Doctors and Dishwashers - EPI economist Dean Baker (U.S.)

Is Canada becoming a conservative nanny state? Sure it is!

Yes I am a bushwhacker. Ain't personal just showing

you how silly your "arguments" make threads.

time to end this one me thinks. 

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why is it that polling booths look like cattle chutes?

Fidel wrote:

And so what do you have to say about the topic of discussion, Bushwhacker? Do you agree with the Harper-Dion $50 billion dollar tax cut for those who don't need it, and over and above restoring federal funding to post-secondary education across Canada?

Nope.  But then same goes for MB NDP. Same *** different pile.  Orange is the colour of cheese. And cheese sorta smells over here.

--------------------------------------------------------- 

why is it that polling booths look like cattle chutes?

dooble post

bush is gone happy happy happy wrote:

 I've been to the Manitoba protest and BOY those students were pissed!  Even saw some union flags out there.  I mean.. that was the NDP  grassroot support out there!  Not a good sign. 

Wow! Fidel has done it agian!  He has trolled some other threads on here that I've read.  From what I've seen of Fiddle's style it looks like the mark of a politician or staffer.  Lay the blame elsewhere, or repeat like a parrot numbers like "3rd lowest tuition" ...see? it is effective because I've just repeated it myself..[and the 1st and 2nd lowest are in non-NDP provinces?! oh the horror!].. don't mess with a propagandist.  You folks above can duke it out and I'll watch.

 Or better yet ignore fan boys.

-New Democratic? yes it is a new form of democracy, I don't recognize it.

Good post. You have a snappy punch line to "why do polling booths look like cattle chutes" or is that it?

Fidel wrote:

Canadian Federation of Students grades political party platforms

Quote:

The Canadian Federation of Students (CFS) has issued a report card grading political parties on their election platforms on post-secondary education and research.

On tuition fees, the NDP came out ahead with a “B+” as the only party with a plan and accompanying funds. . .

The NDP got a “B+” for promising $1.14 billion in new funding for transfers, and for supporting the proposed Post-secondary Education Act.

Canada Post-Secondary Education Act (Bill C-398 Denise Savoie, NDP)

Hate to say it, but the only reason the CFS rated them as such is because they have to give someone a good grade and can`t (for ideological reasons) give one to the Cons or the Libs. Also, they are the NDP farm team.

The NDP platform this year on PSE was a friggin`joke. I get that it was in support of the Savoie`s PSE Act, which would be a great thing to have, but beyond that it was full of vague generalities and zero on specific promises. If I remember correctly, it was something like this (actually a direct quote from the platform book):

Federal NDP wrote:

Post-Secondary Education
Through Jack Layton and the New Democrats’ Education Opportunity Plan, we will:
Enact the Post Secondary Education Act as introduced by the NDP in the last Parliament.

Ensure that students don’t have crippling debts when they graduate:
• Provide a $1,000 grant to all undergraduate or equivalent students who qualify for student loans, paid at the beginning of the school year.
• Support students and post-secondary education in Quebec and the Northern Territories with financing equivalent to their government’s student access and post-secondary development programs.

Keep tuition fees affordable and improve opportunities in post-secondary education by negotiating with provinces and territories improved, dedicated funding to support and enrich publicly funded and administered post-secondary institutions. This will include new initiatives to increase financial support for in-demand professionals, such as doctors and nurses, linked to them serving in areas where there are shortages.

Reform the Canada Student Loans system, including interest relief, so students are not forced to start repaying their student loans while they are still completing their education through internship, co-op or placement programs.

Encourage the best young minds to stay here in Canada by increasing funding for university and college-based research, and for graduate and post-graduate studies. 

So, not bad stuff in here, but in my estimation it sounds more like tinkering at the edges of PSE policy than any kind of substantial changes. That being said, saying your party will `increase funding` without specifics means they really aren`t different from the other parties on PSE. I do, of course, trust the NDP to actually increase funding more than the other parties would, but as we`ve seen in MB, not all of their PSE-related election promises get fulfilled.

At least the CFS didn`t overfocus on the parties during the election. I get the feeling that the report card was kind of a `oh crap, we better put something out` situation.