ACORN getting trashed by Republicans, mainstream media
Wed, 2008-10-29 16:24
#1
ACORN getting trashed by Republicans, mainstream media
Wed, 2008-10-29 16:24
#2
I'm just watching CNN right now (yeah, I know, I know), and they're reporting that ACORN has not only done their best to squash union drives among their own employees, but also tried to pay their employees less than minimum wage.
Please say it ain't so! Let's debunk this if it's not true (and I sure hope it isn't).
[ 29 October 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]
Wed, 2008-10-29 16:28
#3
[url=http://www.propublica.org/article/rotten-acorn-ad-funded-by-anti-minimum..., here's an article with ACORN's side of the story in it.[/url]
quote:
The New York Times ran a full page advertisement today in the front section of the paper featuring an attack on ACORN, or the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, whose voter registration practices have come under fire this election season. Directing readers to the Web site [url=http://www.rottenacorn.com,]www.rottenacorn.com,[/url] the ad accuses ACORN of a list of abuses that suggest hypocrisy on some of the group’s signature issues: intimidating and firing its own employees if they try to unionize, misappropriating millions of dollars from taxpayer-funded government grants and advocating minimum wage hikes while paying its own employees less than minimum wage.
quote:
Kest said accusations of hypocrisy in the ad were untrue.“At one point there were workers at one of our offices who wanted to form a union, and we invited all of our workers in and pledged complete neutrality,” he said in response to the union busting charge. “They decided not to the pursue [the union], so nothing came of it.”
Kest said ACORN has never paid its workers less than a minimum wage or sued to be exempt from minimum wage laws. “In the mid 80s, we were involved in some litigation with the state of California around how to count overtime, but none of that was about the minimum wage. We even eventually withdrew that lawsuit.”
Wed, 2008-10-29 16:41
#4
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]I'm just watching CNN right now (yeah, I know, I know), and they're reporting that ACORN has not only done their best to squash union drives among their own employees, but also tried to pay their employees less than minimum wage.Please say it ain't so! Let's debunk this if it's not true (and I sure hope it isn't).
[ 29 October 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ][/b]
Actually it IS true, at least in Toronto. Sorry to disappoint. It's even worse than that [img]frown.gif" border="0[/img]
Ask anyone they've tried to recruit or hire.
[ 29 October 2008: Message edited by: TVParkdale ]
Wed, 2008-10-29 17:30
#5
#1) It saddens me that Michelle has to apologize for watching CNN. I suppose she is not allowed to read the Star, G+M, or National Post either.
#2) ACORN briefly hires low-income people to sign up and organize their neighbours into membership organizations in low-income communities. (This structure is also helpful for voter registration work.) If their staff were permanent and unionized, their organizing model would fail.
#3) Are you really endorsing the McCain campaign criticisms of an organization with the pedigree of ACORN, which goes back to the Saul Alinsky days of 1960's community organizing? Especially when their community-organizing approach (now linked to the very similar contemporary work of the founder of FACEBOOK who runs Obama's on-line efforts) is critical to the electoral success of the Obama campaign?
PS--NDP candidates would never have won the recent YSW provincial by-election, or the Ward Eight Toronto municipal election, without the explicit help of ACORN, which now works in Canada.
Wed, 2008-10-29 18:25
#6
quote:
Originally posted by social democrat:
[b]#1) It saddens me that Michelle has to apologize for watching CNN. I suppose she is not allowed to read the Star, G+M, or National Post either.
#2) ACORN briefly hires low-income people to sign up and organize their neighbours into membership organizations in low-income communities. (This structure is also helpful for voter registration work.) If their staff were permanent and unionized, their organizing model would fail.
#3) Are you really endorsing the McCain campaign criticisms of an organization with the pedigree of ACORN, which goes back to the Saul Alinsky days of 1960's community organizing? Especially when their community-organizing approach (now linked to the very similar contemporary work of the founder of FACEBOOK who runs Obama's on-line efforts) is critical to the electoral success of the Obama campaign?
PS--NDP candidates would never have won the recent YSW provincial by-election, or the Ward Eight Toronto municipal election, without the explicit help of ACORN, which now works in Canada.[/b]
If you really believe they treat their employees in Toronto fairly and that they actually do any productive organizing, not just publicity hounding, bandwagon jumping and fundraising--all I can say is...
Go work for their Toronto office.
Come back and tell us about it.
Just add it to their lead paint scam.
Sat, 2008-11-01 19:33
#7
I assume Parkdale is a master community organizer and not a disgruntled former ACORN organizer.
[img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
I think he/she might be a little jealous of the attention ACORN gets in Toronto, not to mention in the USA.
A lot of people hate ACORN on the right and the left. Most people see this as proof of their superior work.
Sat, 2008-11-01 19:53
#8
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Strummer:
[b]I assume Parkdale is a master community organizer and not a disgruntled former ACORN organizer.
[img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]I think he/she might be a little jealous of the attention ACORN gets in Toronto, not to mention in the USA.
A lot of people hate ACORN on the right and the left. Most people see this as proof of their superior work.[/b]
Your assumptions are erroneous.
Why is it, when a "left" organization is criticized, you are jumping right in there to protect something, you know NOTHING about?
This is how corruption, malfeasance and lack of accountability continue in these organizations. Then out come the complaints from the left that the "righties" are "being mean to them."
For example:
ACORN is still suckering the unsuspecting in Toronto to donate money for the removal of lead house paint. It's the first big beg on their website.The sale of such house paint has NOT been legal for almost 40 years in this country. So, just exactly WHAT are they collecting the money FOR?
When I confronted them on this their 'organizer' claimed that it was 'leftover' from their American campaigns. Well, it's still on the Toronto website years later and they are still attempting to raise funds for this.
They use a "quota" system of payment to their employees circumventing the labour laws. Research how long the average employee stays and whether they received full payment for their labour. See how much time those employees spend actually organizing ANYTHING.
That's only the beginning of the problems with ACORN here.
If the "left" will not clean up its own house, we can expect that the "right" will continue to scream about this lack of accountability. And, they will be correct to do so.
Making sarcastic comments to me because you've failed to research this, does not change the facts.
[ 01 November 2008: Message edited by: TVParkdale ]
Sat, 2008-11-01 19:57
#9
I've have mixed feelings about ACORN since long before the US election campaign. They do some excellent community organizing on the one hand and have succeeded in pushing forward issues such as the $10 minimum wage and the need to regulate or abolish same day loan outlets.
On the other hand, they are not particularly democratic internally, they have smashed attempts by their own workers to unionize and I think they have exploited their workers.
[url=http://www.iww.org/en/unions/iu650/acorn]IWW vs ACORN[/url]
They're also very close to SEIU which isn't the most ethical union in the world.
There's also the fact that ACORN founder and leader Wade Rathke had to step down from some (but not all) of his positions a few months ago when the fact became public that he had tried to cover up embezzlement by his brother of ACORN funds to a tune of $1 million.
[url=http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/09/us/09embezzle.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=... Misappropriated at 2 Nonprofit Groups[/url]
quote:
Acorn chose to treat the embezzlement of nearly $1 million eight years ago as an internal matter and did not even notify its board... A whistle-blower forced Acorn to disclose the embezzlement, which involved the brother of the organization’s founder, Wade Rathke.The brother, Dale Rathke, embezzled nearly $1 million from Acorn and affiliated charitable organizations in 1999 and 2000, Acorn officials said, but a small group of executives decided to keep the information from almost all of the group’s board members and not to alert law enforcement.
Dale Rathke remained on Acorn’s payroll until a month ago, when disclosure of his theft by foundations and other donors forced the organization to dismiss him.
“We thought it best at the time to protect the organization, as well as to get the funds back into the organization, to deal with it in-house,” said Maude Hurd, president of Acorn. “It was a judgment call at the time, and looking back, people can agree or disagree with it, but we did what we thought was right.”
The amount Dale Rathke embezzled, $948,607.50, was carried as a loan on the books of Citizens Consulting Inc., which provides bookkeeping, accounting and other financial management services to Acorn and many of its affiliated entities.
Wade Rathke said the organization had signed a restitution agreement with his brother in which his family agreed to repay the amount embezzled in exchange for confidentiality.
Wade Rathke stepped down as Acorn’s chief organizer on June 2, the same day his brother left, but he remains chief organizer for Acorn International L.L.C.
quote:
, the Rathke family has paid Acorn $30,000 a year in restitution since 2001, or a total of $210,000.
(note at this rate it will take 33 years for the Rathkes to repay the stolen million dollars without interest - meantime, ACORN pays its workers less than the minimum wage)
[ 01 November 2008: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]
Sat, 2008-11-01 20:16
#10
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
[b]I've have mixed feelings about ACORN since long before the US election campaign. They do some excellent community organizing on the one hand and have succeeded in pushing forward issues such as the $10 minimum wage and the need to regulate or abolish same day loan outlets.On the other hand, they are not particularly democratic internally, they have smashed attempts by their own workers to unionize and I think they have exploited their workers.
[url=http://www.iww.org/en/unions/iu650/acorn]IWW vs ACORN[/url]
They're also very close to SEIU which isn't the most ethical union in the world.
There's also the fact that ACORN founder and leader Wade Rathke had to step down from some (but not all) of his positions a few months ago when the fact became public that he had tried to cover up embezzlement by his brother of ACORN funds to a tune of $1 million[/b]
That's all I'm saying. I don't know about *every* ACORN office. Some of them might be perfectly okay. I just know the Toronto office doesn't deserve a dime unless it cleans itself up and starts paying people a reasonable amount to do the job ACORN could be doing.
I don't pick on social services and activist organizations to be mean to them. I pick on them when they don't do what they're designed to DO. Or, they do not track the money they are given, in a responsible manner. Some are downright corrupt.
Then the client base suffers.
This was MY response to a journalist's criticism of a Salvation Army grant from the city that she did not agree with:
"I don't care if the government pays an agency to bumblewuffet so long as that agency completes all the bumblewuffeting that's in the funding proposal and is transparent about its bumblewuffeting activities!"
It's much harder than people realize to shut down, or force to be accountable, disreputable non-profits in Canada.
Sun, 2008-11-02 01:30
#11
Cueball
It has been a good week. Out with QatzelOk, and in with TVparkdale.
Sun, 2008-11-02 08:08
#12
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]It has been a good week. Out with QatzelOk, and in with TVparkdale.[/b]
Uhm, is that good or bad?
Sun, 2008-11-02 17:22
#13
Cueball
It's great. Great contributions. Great straight talk.
Sun, 2008-11-02 17:58
#14
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]It's great. Great contributions. Great straight talk.[/b]
*blush*
Well thank you
[img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Wed, 2008-11-12 11:58
#15
The attacks against ACORN from the Right are to be expected, they are the largest community organizing group in Canada (and not mention the states). Its intereting to see critics on the left parroting the attacks though... especially on Rabble.
When we look at ACORN USA, its the largest membership organization of poor-peoples ever assembles, with over 400,000 member families. Thats huge. Have there been problem, sure, they're well documented but they shouldn't overshaddow the success;
redistributing $15 Billion dollars to poor and working poor families over 10 year: http://www.acorn.org/fileadmin/Reports/ACORN_Wins_Report.pdf
What other group outside organized labour can act on that kind of scale? or win that level of strucural change? Or deliver those kind of resources to thier constieuency?
And in Toronto (and Canada) they've been leading thefight on a number of issue- payday lending, landlord licensing, affordable housing etc. while critics will always find problems, the fact remains that the ACORN model work, even if you don't always like it.
As per the criticisms regardin low pay and aggressive fundraising... where exactly would you have them develop the resources to pay thier staff more if they didn't fundraise canvass or have membership dues? Anyone who knows anything about the non profit sector in Canada knows how hard it is to raise money for strucural social change, the fact ACORN Canada has managed to develop the kind of scale it has is something progressives should be proud of, not ashamed of.
Wed, 2008-11-12 12:43
#16
TV Parkdale claims ACORN is dishonest and a scam - and offers no proof or any evidence at all.
Here is some of the nefarious work ACORN has been doing on the issue of lead paint: published a report (!), lobbied government to make paint companies responsible for clean-up and to establish a remediation fund.
I can't find any evidence that they are "charging" people to clean up buildings. It is not the lead item on their website. They admit in their campaign that lead paint has been banned for 40 years - their issue is that it's STILL ON THE WALLS in people's homes.
As for their record of organizing, all I know is that landlord licensing, payday lending weren't on the agenda before ACORN appeared on the scene. They're also getting streetlights installed in parks, four-way stop signs erected at busy intersestions. They, like any good community organizer, go into a community, find out what the problems are, and organize people to fix them. They are funded by their members who are mostly low and middle income. As a result the pay is pretty low and the work is pretty thankless. I'm not surprised people burn out and I'm not surprised people choose not to make a career of it.
Here's an interesting article on their activities and their connection to ACORN-USA.
TV Parkdale, you've leveled some serious allegations and I can't find much evidence to support your allegations. Care to provide some?
Wed, 2008-11-12 13:47
#17
On balance I think ACORN does more good than ill. I also think the charges of voter registration fraud are nonsense.
However, having been involved with ACORN and knowing ACORN members (members not organizers) I am aware that there are problems within ACORN surrounding lack of democracy, not always giving back to the neighbourhood they are taking money from and lack of accountability. ACORN and its supporters should be willing to engage in some degree of self-criticism and make attempts to correct the problems that do exist. Attempts to demonize all critics and insist there is nothing wrong are not helpful or encouraging.
I also notice, Sunday Hat, that you had nothing to say in regards to the Rathke fraud and coverup.
Wed, 2008-11-12 14:33
#18
Also it should be noted that ACORN in the United States and ACORN Canada are seperate organizations. www.acorn.org doesn't even list ACORN Canada on their website...
The Rathke embezzlement issue is concerning obviously, from everything ive heard and read he's been removed from his job, new staff and accounting controls have been brought in, and it appears there making real change to the way the organization is being run.
Wed, 2008-11-12 15:28
#19
The attacks against ACORN from the Right are to be expected, they are the largest community organizing group in Canada (and not mention the states). Its intereting to see critics on the left parroting the attacks though... especially on Rabble.
When we look at ACORN USA, its the largest membership organization of poor-peoples ever assembles, with over 400,000 member families. Thats huge. Have there been problem, sure, they're well documented but they shouldn't overshaddow the success;
redistributing $15 Billion dollars to poor and working poor families over 10 year: http://www.acorn.org/fileadmin/Reports/ACORN_Wins_Report.pdf
What other group outside organized labour can act on that kind of scale? or win that level of strucural change? Or deliver those kind of resources to thier constieuency?
And in Toronto (and Canada) they've been leading thefight on a number of issue- payday lending, landlord licensing, affordable housing etc. while critics will always find problems, the fact remains that the ACORN model work, even if you don't always like it.
As per the criticisms regardin low pay and aggressive fundraising... where exactly would you have them develop the resources to pay thier staff more if they didn't fundraise canvass or have membership dues? Anyone who knows anything about the non profit sector in Canada knows how hard it is to raise money for strucural social change, the fact ACORN Canada has managed to develop the kind of scale it has is something progressives should be proud of, not ashamed of.
For starters, ACORN did NOT start the idea in Toronto of licensing landlords. That idea was put forward over 10 years ago after the Rupert Hotel fire and was then picked up by a number of other tenant rights activist including PTA and PCLS. Typical ACORN, jump on the bandwagon. Same with the lending trade--Regent Park activists were on that LONG before ACORN said anything.
ACORN says NOTHING on their website about the fact that lead paint in housing is illegal. NOTHING. If that's honesty, I fail to see it. And they won't tell you that, either. I've never heard of one single Toronto apartment building having the paint stripped due to ACORN. If you can find one, please inform me.
ACORN has a habit of bandwagon jumping while other people do the real work. They are too busy hitting up poor neighbourhoods for donations and not paying their staff enough money.
It's easy to claim whatever they like but they have little respect amongst many activists because for all the money they are sucking out--little gets done.
WHAT level of "structural change" have they actually accomplished in Canada?
They 'redististributed' --just exactly what is THAT supposed to mean?
Oh apparently, according to their report--it means they had some hand in changing some policies in the USA that resulted in lower-income people getting more money. All calculated of course, all estimates--no *real* information.
That is what they're claiming.
Claiming "resdistribution" isn't a fact of what an organization has *done*.
Well gee--in that case, I'm responsible for millions of dollars outstanding that was owed to women from the FRO because I fought Harris and won so many women collected their cash.
Oh and OCAP is responsible for MILLIONS in "redistribution" because they sorted out much of the ODSP, food allowance, etc.
That's the road to lunacy. "Redistribution of wealth" is proof of precisely nothing.
If ACORN wants respect, they have to earn it. No organization should automatically be given respect until they show what they do IN CANADA specifically in this case in Toronto.
Otherwise, they are just an American import like the Guardian Angels here to collect the cash.
As for the "largest organizing group in Canada"? Prove that via outside information not obtained from ACORN but an independent source.
I've seen how such organizations manipulate their stats.
Bottom line here is accountability to the funders and I don't see that happening with ACORN in Toronto.
They're certainly not the only guilty party but I'm not going to defend an organization just because they are "left" or "big" or just because some of their offices somewhere else are okay.
Wed, 2008-11-12 15:36
#20
On balance I think ACORN does more good than ill. I also think the charges of voter registration fraud are nonsense.
However, having been involved with ACORN and knowing ACORN members (members not organizers) I am aware that there are problems within ACORN surrounding lack of democracy, not always giving back to the neighbourhood they are taking money from and lack of accountability. ACORN and its supporters should be willing to engage in some degree of self-criticism and make attempts to correct the problems that do exist. Attempts to demonize all critics and insist there is nothing wrong are not helpful or encouraging.
I also notice, Sunday Hat, that you had nothing to say in regards to the Rathke fraud and coverup.
Exactly.
If ACORN will not clean up their act, they are an embarrassment to those ACORN offices that may be doing their jobs.
It took a YEAR of coverup before they cleared up a misappropriation of funds that they knew about.
That's simply disgusting.
I will not defend that. It's likely that money will never be returned so let's put it in REAL terms.
Every "membership" from a poverty-ridden mom is one less bag of milk for her kids because she believed in a brighter future. How many bags of milk are missing after a whole year?
That's criminal.
Every time a "left" organization steals from its' members or doesn't fulfill a mandate that it recieves money to work on, it creates more suffering for the poor and more excuses for the right to blast us all.
There are excusable errors that the right makes all the time because it is as flawed as the humans who are involved--but theft from the most vulnerable members of society is an abomination.
It is literally, "stealing milk money from kids".
Wed, 2008-11-12 16:24
#21
Also it should be noted that ACORN in the United States and ACORN Canada are seperate organizations. www.acorn.org doesn't even list ACORN Canada on their website...
Different websites, same organization. Rathke was the Chief Organizer of ACORN USA and ACORN International. He remained the Cheif Organizer of ACORN International after being forced to quit his US role. I believe there were negotiations a few weeks about about his resigning his international role (ie including Canada) as well but I haven't heard if anything's happened yet.
The Rathke embezzlement issue is concerning obviously, from everything ive heard and read he's been removed from his job, new staff and accounting controls have been brought in, and it appears there making real change to the way the organization is being run.
See above, he remained chief organizer of ACORN International after losing his US position.
So yes, it is relevant.
Wed, 2008-11-12 16:31
#22
Here is the ACORN International website (which does list Canada) and when you click on the "chief organizer" link it takes you here and guess who is still in charge?
Wed, 2008-11-12 16:32
#23
According to his website Rathke remains Chief Organizer of ACORN International. I used to give money to ACORN in Toronto but can you understand why one wouldn't be comfortable doing so as long as Rathke remains at the top?
Wed, 2008-11-12 16:52
#24
Mycroft,
Nothings been mentioned because Wade has never run ACORN Canada, its a seperate org from ACORN international... ACORN Canada is a national non profit with an all Canadian Board and staff.
That said, lets not be to quick to tar Wade Rathke for all the ills of the world, embezzlement aside, he's built from the group up one of the most powerful social justice organizations in America. And not the quick-and-easy lefty lobbyist organizations, but one that spends its resources organizing poor families in the places where they live.
Might I recommed: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-atlas/acorn-under-the-microscop_b_112...
Wed, 2008-11-12 17:26
#25
Mycroft,
Nothings been mentioned because Wade has never run ACORN Canada, its a seperate org from ACORN international... ACORN Canada is a national non profit with an all Canadian Board and staff.
That said, lets not be to quick to tar Wade Rathke for all the ills of the world, embezzlement aside, he's built from the group up one of the most powerful social justice organizations in America. And not the quick-and-easy lefty lobbyist organizations, but one that spends its resources organizing poor families in the places where they live.
Might I recommed: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-atlas/acorn-under-the-microscop_b_112...
Come on, there's obviously a relationship between the ACORNs and ACORN Canada is as much part of ACORN International just as SEIU Canada is part of SEIU international even if SEIU Canada has an all Canadian executive- and Rathke as Chief Organizer of ACORN International certainly plays some role, formalities aside.
I'm not saying he's evil but, frankly, covering up his brother's theft of one million dollars - stealing the money from the dues paid by poor people - does not say much for him.
Thu, 2008-11-13 11:38
#26
Mycroft,
Nothings been mentioned because Wade has never run ACORN Canada, its a seperate org from ACORN international... ACORN Canada is a national non profit with an all Canadian Board and staff.
That said, lets not be to quick to tar Wade Rathke for all the ills of the world, embezzlement aside, he's built from the group up one of the most powerful social justice organizations in America. And not the quick-and-easy lefty lobbyist organizations, but one that spends its resources organizing poor families in the places where they live.
Might I recommed: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-atlas/acorn-under-the-microscop_b_112...
Come on, there's obviously a relationship between the ACORNs and ACORN Canada is as much part of ACORN International just as SEIU Canada is part of SEIU international even if SEIU Canada has an all Canadian executive- and Rathke as Chief Organizer of ACORN International certainly plays some role, formalities aside.
I'm not saying he's evil but, frankly, covering up his brother's theft of one million dollars - stealing the money from the dues paid by poor people - does not say much for him.
When I spoke with ACORN employees they told me that all the money was distributed by the US counterpart's permission--that all administrative tasks went through the USA head office.
Now, unless that's changed in the past year or so, that remains the case.
As I said, if you truly *believe* in ACORN--go work for them.
Otherwise, put your money and labour somewhere else where you believe the most benefit will occur.
As for the landlord registration, many tenant associations I have spoken with do not approve.
Why? Because we don't back up the legislation we already have to force landlords to bring buildings up to code. The fines are too low and are not collected.
Licensing will only be one more barrier for the poor or those on subsidies to hurdle in the search for housing.
Fri, 2008-11-14 11:41
#27
From what I can see that the whole incident seems pretty bad. Both Rathke's have since left their jobs. That said, I can understand why an organization like ACORN would be tempted to engage in a cover up. They've made some powerful enemies who have a casual relationship with accuracy. I don't condone but I do sympathize. Again, this is based on what I know.I also notice, Sunday Hat, that you had nothing to say in regards to the Rathke fraud and coverup.
The main reason I posted wasn't to defend ACORN per se, but to ask that any critique be fact-based. There's a lot of rumour-mongering on these boards and while I don't think activists should be above criticism I do think people who work hard organizing the poor should get the benefit of the doubt.
Fri, 2008-11-14 12:12
#28
Well.For starters, ACORN did NOT start the idea in Toronto of licensing landlords. That idea was put forward over 10 years ago after the Rupert Hotel fire and was then picked up by a number of other tenant rights activist including PTA and PCLS. Typical ACORN, jump on the bandwagon. Same with the lending trade--Regent Park activists were on that LONG before ACORN said anything.
ACORN says NOTHING on their website about the fact that lead paint in housing is illegal. NOTHING...
WHAT level of "structural change" have they actually accomplished in Canada?
- ACORN makes it clear that lead paint has been phased out for years and was belatedly banned: "In Canada, lead paint was voluntarily phased out in 1972, but was not fully banned until 2006." So you're just wrong on that point.
- It's quite possible that people were talking about payday lending before ACORN got active on the file. However, governments didn't act on it until ACORN put out their report in 2004 and started organizing. Maybe ACORN had nothing to do with it but I've struggled to find an article on payday lending that quotes anyone other than ACORN. Maybe that's because they're media whores. I also struggle to find any reference to anyone doing anything in the issue. I'm happy to be corrected.
- It's quite possible that people were talking about landlord licensing before ACORN - but nothing was happening until ACORN helped get Anthony Perruzza elected in Ward 8 and he brought it to City Council. At least that I know of.
Fri, 2008-11-14 15:13
#29
So far, no one has addressed the issues raised in the news, that I mentioned in my opening post. Namely, trying to pay employees less than minimum wage, and union-busting. Is this not true? When I've seen ACORN officials interviewed on TV, they sidestep the question by talking about all the good ACORN does. And I believe, like Mycroft, that the organization is a force for good, definitely.
But I'd really like to see these claims made in the mainstream media about union-busting and paying workers less than minimum wage debunked if they're not true.
Fri, 2008-11-14 15:55
#30
From what I can see that the whole incident seems pretty bad. Both Rathke's have since left their jobs.I also notice, Sunday Hat, that you had nothing to say in regards to the Rathke fraud and coverup.
No. Wade Rathe is *still* Chief Organizer of ACORN International which includes ACORN Canada. He only resigned as Cheif Organizer of ACORN USA.
Fri, 2008-11-14 16:02
#31
The union busting occured in 2000-2001 when the IWW tried to organize ACORN workers. See this page.
Fri, 2008-11-14 16:27
#32
Well.For starters, ACORN did NOT start the idea in Toronto of licensing landlords. That idea was put forward over 10 years ago after the Rupert Hotel fire and was then picked up by a number of other tenant rights activist including PTA and PCLS. Typical ACORN, jump on the bandwagon. Same with the lending trade--Regent Park activists were on that LONG before ACORN said anything.
ACORN says NOTHING on their website about the fact that lead paint in housing is illegal. NOTHING...
WHAT level of "structural change" have they actually accomplished in Canada?
- ACORN makes it clear that lead paint has been phased out for years and was belatedly banned: "In Canada, lead paint was voluntarily phased out in 1972, but was not fully banned until 2006." So you're just wrong on that point.
Lead paint housepaint was BANNED in Canada in 1978. Banned. Not phased out. Banned.
- It's quite possible that people were talking about payday lending before ACORN got active on the file. However, governments didn't act on it until ACORN put out their report in 2004 and started organizing. Maybe ACORN had nothing to do with it but I've struggled to find an article on payday lending that quotes anyone other than ACORN. Maybe that's because they're media whores. I also struggle to find any reference to anyone doing anything in the issue. I'm happy to be corrected.
Try Sheri DiNova and St. Christopher's who went after Money Mart along with some of the activists in Regent Park. That was after they already nailed MM for charging huge fees on cheque cashing. DiNova did have ACORN on the posters here in Parkdale and it was one of the few moves that wasn't particularly neighbourhood based at all since ACORN has nothing to do with Parkdale and working Parkdalians had serious concerns since some did not want payday loans shut down.
- It's quite possible that people were talking about landlord licensing before ACORN - but nothing was happening until ACORN helped get Anthony Perruzza elected in Ward 8 and he brought it to City Council. At least that I know of.
Then try Metro Tenants Association who have been discussing it for some time. Or Parkdale Tenants Association as well as Parkdale Legal Clinic and FTMA who have also been debating the pros and cons and were still discussing it for sure 2 years ago when I was at a housing meeting with them. Some were being pressured at that time to "jump on board" by a number of city counselors and they were expressing doubts about it being anything more than a sop thrown at them by politicians. One was offered a full -time job if he'd bite.
http://www.torontotenants.org/licensing.htm
Obviously, ACORN didn't have the same reservations.
Acorn may well be doing some good stuff somewhere. However, I don't see it happening HERE except when it benefits them. In fact, they seem to be singularly on the opposite side of many of the grassroots orgs that spring up. Too much of it looks like bandwagon jumping *against* other organizations and being used by politicos for *their* agendas when other organizations aren't buying the party line.
And Michelle as for your above post about the problems with ACORN and employees, I knew there had been complaints about them union busting and I can't recall when/where quite some time ago.
And I *do* know that they falsely advertise for "activists" in Toronto when in fact, all they are offering is only door-to-door fundraising jobs on a salary that depends on a quota system.
That wouldn't be so disgusting if it was like Greenpeace, who honestly say that in their adverts but that is *not* what ACORN has been doing. When I met with them the longest "supervisory" employee in the room had been there 3 months.
It takes more than that to impress me.
Sat, 2008-11-15 12:52
#33
@ TVParkdale
- The FMTA page you link to is from 2007 - after ACORN and Perruzza got the City to commission a study of landlord licensing. I'm not denying they've done good work but ACORN got this on the agenda.
- Cheri DiNovo worked with and acknowledged ACORN's efforts to take on payday lenders. I don't see a contradiction here.
- Please provide some source for your claim that lead paint was banned in Canada in 1978. This government of Canada website notes that homes were being painted with lead paint as late as 1992.
Sat, 2008-11-15 15:02
#34
@ TVParkdale
- The FMTA page you link to is from 2007 - after ACORN and Perruzza got the City to commission a study of landlord licensing. I'm not denying they've done good work but ACORN got this on the agenda.
That was when it was written. I actually had this discussion with them before long that. It is also a fundamentally flawed position, as I pointed out.
- Cheri DiNovo worked with and acknowledged ACORN's efforts to take on payday lenders. I don't see a contradiction here.
The contradictions I am pointing out here is that ACORN is not supporting the neighbourhood agenda or what the "poor" are requesting--they are supporting certain political agendas, most of which are based on their US counterparts, for unknown purposes.
- Please provide some source for your claim that lead paint was banned in Canada in 1978. This government of Canada website notes that homes were being painted with lead paint as late as 1992.
"Most indoor and outdoor paints produced before 1950 contained
substantial amounts of lead. If you strip or sand old paint that
contains lead, you could breathe in lead particles. Since 1976, the
amount of lead in interior paint has been limited by law. Although the
lead content of exterior paint is not regulated, Canadian paint
manufacturers have voluntarily ensured that no lead is intentionally
added. Exterior paint with lead carries a warning label. "--this is right off your own website you are pointing out.
And my bad...
It was banned in the USA in 1978.
You will continue to support ACORN.
No matter how many flaws people have pointed out to you on here, you have dodged the problems with how they treat employees, their misappropriation of funds for a full year after they were aware of the problem and the fact that it the administration and funding accessibility is still primarily in the hands of their USA counterpart.
I refuse to support poverty pimping by any organization.
The primary problem for poverty ridden neighbourhoods isn't lead paint. It isn't even close. I doubt that those sleeping under a bridge or in a shelter really give a damn about the fact that someone who bought an old house to gentrify must strip and paint the walls while they are still huffing exhaust fumes and chasing bedbugs around.
The problems for the working poor aren't payday loans, that's a symptom--it's starvation wages, ineffective daycare, lack of food, housing. and adequate medical care.
There are financial priorities here and sucking money away from them isn't helping.
Sat, 2008-11-15 21:38
#35
@ TVParkdale
To be honest, I don't "support" ACORN except in the sense that I've admired their work. I've seen some anonymous crap posted on web-boards before and when I see it posted I ask that people provide proof - which isn't unreasonable. In your postings you've gotten a lot of facts totally wrong. It concerns me and makes me question your agenda.
@ Mycroft
I think the embezzlement incident reflects badly on Rathke but I also think if the guy wanted to get rich there's probably better ways to do it. He posted his version of events on his blog.
As for the IWW incidents I think everyone has the right to form a union but, that said, I don't know how I feel about people who complain about wages and hours when they're organizing and getting paid by the working poor. Issues of fairness treatment on the job and harrassment I take more seriously. All that said, the IWW hasn't been a functioning union since 1915 - so I don't know who these people are beyond this website that's half a decade old. I suspect there's another side to the story... but I haven't found one on the ACORN site.
Sat, 2008-11-15 22:07
#36
I think the embezzlement incident reflects badly on Rathke but I also think if the guy wanted to get rich there's probably better ways to do it. He posted his version of events on his blog.
As for the IWW incidents I think everyone has the right to form a union but, that said, I don't know how I feel about people who complain about wages and hours when they're organizing and getting paid by the working poor. Issues of fairness treatment on the job and harrassment I take more seriously. All that said, the IWW hasn't been a functioning union since 1915 - so I don't know who these people are beyond this website that's half a decade old. I suspect there's another side to the story... but I haven't found one on the ACORN site.
The IWW remains a functioning union although they are much smaller than in their heyday. As for your comment about people complaining about wages and hours when they're organizing for the poor - that would be easier to accept if leaders like Rathke weren't being *very* well paid and his brother, who was on ACORN's payroll, hadn't embezzled one million dollars at the precise same time that ACORN workers were organizing a union drive to improve their minimum wage conditions.
Frankly, it's a bit hypocritical for ACORN to be involved in a campaign to raise the minimum wage to $10 when they weren't even paying that to their own people.
Sat, 2008-11-15 23:11
#37
@ TVParkdale
To be honest, I don't "support" ACORN except in the sense that I've admired their work. I've seen some anonymous crap posted on web-boards before and when I see it posted I ask that people provide proof - which isn't unreasonable. In your postings you've gotten a lot of facts totally wrong. It concerns me and makes me question your agenda.
One wrong date is "a lot of facts wrong"? Do tell!
You can question "my agenda" as you put it, all you like. I have not said anywhere that ACORN may not have done some good in some places.
What I question is their real agenda, their relevance and their trustworthiness in Toronto as well as their shady labour and financial administrative practices.
I believe I've pointed out enough reasons why those are serious concerns.
"My agenda" hasn't been to support misappropriation of funds nor the misleading of the public nor supporting questionable labour practises by an agency claiming to represent the best interests of the poor.
Sun, 2008-11-16 00:56
#38
TVParkdale. You've claimed that ACORN is billing people to remove lead from their homes, you offer no evidence. You claim they lie to people about the laws around lead paint, you have your facts wrong. You claim they stole the idea for landlord licensing and offer as proof a document that proves the opposite. Etc.
Mycroft, I assume you're being sarcastic but the point is fair, if an organization is going to demand sacrifrice they better demand sacrifice from all. Double standards, etc, give your opponents something to shoot at. It seems that the investigation is ongoing.
As an aside, I wonder if the IWW, in it's current incarnation, pays anything at all. I know the IWW of old didn't treat it's organizers the way they were demanding workers be treated.
Sun, 2008-11-16 02:17
#39
I don't think the modern IWW has any paid organizers (or paid staff for that matter).
I'm not saying ACORN organizers should make $60,000 a year but a decent wage would be good. I don't think the ones who tried to organize were asking for anything outlandish.
Sun, 2008-11-16 11:25
#40
On the one hand, they're extremely reasonable demands for any worker to make - and I'd be screaming blue murder if Starbucks, for example, was refusing to grant these things.
On the other hand, insisting on a "buddy system" because you don't like going out alone in poor neighborhoods would effectively double ACORN's staffing costs. More practically, the people who live in these neighborhoods don't have a "buddy system", if you find the neighborhhod that unwelcoming maybe community organizing just isn't for you. I never heard tales of Joe Hill complaining that the IWW paid too little and forced him to go to work camps alone (then again Big Bill Haywood's brother never stole a million dollars from the IWW).
Sun, 2008-11-16 11:33
#41
TVParkdale. You've claimed that ACORN is billing people to remove lead from their homes, you offer no evidence. You claim they lie to people about the laws around lead paint, you have your facts wrong. You claim they stole the idea for landlord licensing and offer as proof a document that proves the opposite. Etc.
For starters I never said any such thing as they were "billing people to remove lead paint" so please, don't out-and-out fabricate.
What I said was they are collecting donations claiming that it's for the struggle against lead paint. A struggle that doesn't, in any real sense, exist since lead paint is banned and they've produced 0 results while fundraising for years over it.
And I certainly don't see ACORN jumping up and down about the lead paint Lidden site either, so excuse me if I find their hypocrisy more than a bit self-serving since they recieved funding to write a report about one company but have done nothing about a more pressing matter that they can't collect on.
As for that tenant document, do you think they pulled something that complex out of their butt in a week and a half and posted it? What I SAID was that a number of tenant agencies were having this discussion long before ACORN so conveniently entered the fray and I KNEW that because I was in housing discussions with them at the time.
Sorry I didn't tape the conversations for your convenience.
I also said some tenant associations were conflicted about it and refused to support it because the ramifications could just as well be negative as positive which is why some of the orgs backed out.
So please, if anyone can't keep the facts of the discussion straight, it may not be me.
Sun, 2008-11-16 11:50
#42
On the other hand, insisting on a "buddy system" because you don't like going out alone in poor neighborhoods would effectively double ACORN's staffing costs. More practically, the people who live in these neighborhoods don't have a "buddy system", if you find the neighborhhod that unwelcoming maybe community organizing just isn't for you. .
There's a vast difference between people who LIVE in a poverty neighbourhood and those who are, in essence, visiting and don't know the area or the residents.
As for the "buddy system" that IS a perfectly legitimate employee demand and in fact ACORN, if a fund raiser were to be hurt ACORN WOULD be liable for huge damages if they send people alone and someone is hurt on the job.
Outreach/organizing personnel at legitimate agencies work in teams with partners in vulnerable neighbourhoods because it is against the labor laws in Canada to put your employees at that kind of easily prevented risk. As an employer, nowadays it is also standard practise to pay for an emergency cell phone to send with each team as well.
If ACORN can't afford to keep their employees safe on the job, perhaps they need to find a different methods of fundraising such as going to community events and fundraising there.
Sun, 2008-12-14 20:16
#43
WOW!!! Who knew a couple of people who couldn't organize their way out of a wet paper bag with scissors in their hands knew so much about ACORN Canada.
Sorry Babblers but I don't have time to lay out all of the facts here. But i do have time to poke some fun!
Quote from that organizing mastermind AKA Mycroft:
"The IWW remains a functioning union although they are much smaller than in their heyday."
This is childish. I think someone is a little jealous. . . .
Sun, 2008-12-14 22:41
#44
Well I guess that is not what this forum is about - cracking Jokes. So here are a few facts.
Lead Campaign - Not fair to call it a scam. The whole reason that Canada ACORN has not been able to run a real campaign around lead remediation in old buildings is the fact that ACORN Canada had problems raising real money. The money is needed to prove to Environment Canada that there is in fact a problem with lead in people’s homes built prior to the 1960’s. Testing is insanely expensive – over $200 for a sample at any private testing facility - and surprise, surprise Enviro Can. doesn’t test lead dust samples. What they did is test urine and blood levels in 5000 Canadians aged 6 to 79. http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2008/11/19/lead-blood.html This is a total crock. Go to a low income neighbourhood like Vanier in Ottawa, then test everyone, and you would find higher levels that you would in say, an Apartment Building on Danforth RD. So really, if ACORN Canada was scamming people for money then why did they not get enough money to pay for some tests in Vanier. Much more could be said about this.. . .
Democratic – So you talked to some members and they said ACORN Canada is undemocratic. Let’s assume that these members pay dues, go to meetings, and live in a chapter (gordonridge). Tell the person to go to a chapter meeting and ask when the next election is for chair of the chapter. They would get an answer of next year, or next meeting, or let’s have an election now!! The person who gets elected as Chair then sits on the board. The Board is where policy decisions are made for city wide campaigns, the same for provincial and national boards. . . . . I doubt you were talking to Kay Bisnanth, or Marva Burnett who sit on the boards and live in the Boro.. . .
Qoata in the US Voter Reg, Drive – NOT TRUE. ACORN Jobs are performance based. Have you ever had a job where your performance wasn’t measured? You may have one in the IWW – but oh yeah you don’t get paid. Sorry for the crack, but come on is ACORN supposed to keep people on who go to the phone book and make phony registrations!!!!!!!!
Rathke – Dale Rathke Maxed Out 950 000 dollars from credit cards - so its not dues money its VISA's Money. You think ACORN Canada LIKES that. I doubt it. It happened 5 years before they existed. . . . . Wade Rathke, while a brilliant orgainzier, has never been on ACORN Canada pay roll. The National Head Organizer of ACORN Canada is the CEO or ED or Chief Organizer of ACORN Canada and reports to the democraticly elected board.
Landlord Licensing – ACORN had the burden of doing the heavy lifting on the campaign. Easy to think of an idea, harder to do the work. Also the campaign is over, as far as I can tell. ACORN lost!!
Look, I could go on and on. . . maybe in a couple months
Why don’t you take something from here to there!
Mon, 2009-03-30 05:08
#45
TVParkdale is scared of poor people.
Dude, are they more violent than rich people?
Who does the work to change labour laws?
"TV Park has got no power" LOL
Mon, 2009-03-30 06:01
#46
Lard Tunderin Jeezus
Why would you revive an old thread simply to taunt a fellow babbler?
Mon, 2009-03-30 07:20
#47
Yeah, that's really weird.
Fri, 2009-04-24 17:54
#48
Have at it. It's why I don't waste time here any more with such idiocy and sarcasm instead of facts.
Having said that--I ran into a NEW organizer from ACORN from St. Jamestown [ex Parkdalian]. He actually HAD been busting his bollocks and that is why Jamestown got moving. He is also not getting a dime while others are being paid, yet he's the one who co-ordinated much of the efforts.
So, I will take him at his word that that part of the situation has in effect, improved in the past year.
Tue, 2009-05-05 15:39
#49
Why would you revive an old thread simply to taunt a fellow babbler?Don't drink and post.