Catholic School funding main issue of Ontario leadership debate

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Left J.A.B.

Lard Tunderin' Jeezus wrote:

Left J.A.B. wrote:
 I think the approach being advocated by some on here, which you and others poo-poo, is in fact the only way this issue could be dealt with without a very, very ugly election.  Anti-Catholic prejudice is still alive and well in a lot of places, particularly amongst older people – you know that age group where we all went to school together before Davis instituted public financing allowing schools to open for my children, and everything was peace and tolerance.  We saw a bit of it in the last provincial election and many Green supporters were expressing that, but an explicit campaign will bring out an undercurrent of intolerance that is still very prevalent in a lot of communities.  And it will get very ugly fast.
I think better than you of the people of Ontario. I think that anti-Catholic prejudice is a thing of the past, except amongst the kind of religious bigots who would love to have the privileges that the Catholics now enjoy extended to themselves.

 As we saw last election, they did not constitute a winning plurality for John Tory's Tories. 

I am speaking about personal experience.  It is still very much with us I am afraid.  Visit your neighbourhood coffee shop and drop the seperate school issue into the conversation.  It is, as I said, mostly in the older generations, but it is alive and well.

And it was not the bigots that went Tory in the last election, many of them went Green.

Unionist

Janfromthebruce, I admire your persistence, but you're wasting your breath. The kinds of sentiments in evidence here bode badly for the ONDP. People are talking about their "constitutional right" to demand public money to teach their kids religion (only one religion). They also have a "constitutional right" to build a factory, hire minimum wage non-union labour, treat them like shit, and get wealthy on their backs. Or to stand up and declare that we should bomb Iran and become the 51st state.

 

Trouble is, one expects a little better of progressive people than to proclaim their "constitutional right" to espouse medievalism. One expects a formula for change, for progress. One also does not expect cowardice - the kind of cowardice that always assumes that the "voters" are more backward than one is oneself. That's never the case.

Left J.A.B.

Cowardice is the kind of thing you see people doing sniping from the sidelines when they will not have their communities and families affected.  That's cowardice.  Thanks for showing us what it looks like.

And thanks for showing why the 'progressives' who want to take away my rights, fought for by generations before this one, will lose the debate because they have nothing to offer by thinly vieled prejudice of anyone with a religious background and name calling those who disagree with them.

Unionist

Left J.A.B. wrote:

Cowardice is the kind of thing you see people doing sniping from the sidelines when they will not have their communities and families affected.

We abolished public Catholic and Protestant schools 10 years ago. That's action. Oh, and by the way, we didn't close any. Oh, and by the way, nobody misses them. "Good riddance!", is the universal cry. We prepared at least one step going forward into the 21st century.

Quote:
And thanks for showing why the 'progressives' who want to take away my rights, fought for by generations before this one, will lose the debate ...

Generations "fought" for public funding of Catholic instruction? They fought in vain. You will lose it. And guess what - no one will miss it - especially your offspring.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Left J.A.B. wrote:
And thanks for showing why the 'progressives' who want to take away my rights, fought for by generations before this one, will lose the debate because they have nothing to offer by thinly vieled prejudice of anyone with a religious background and name calling those who disagree with them.
Those are antique and unearned privileges, not your 'rights' in any useful sense of the word. 

Wilf Day

Lard Tunderin' Jeezus wrote:

I think that anti-Catholic prejudice is a thing of the past. 

Do you talk to a lot of PC voters who were upset with John Tory, and either stayed home or voted Green in protest?

 

I did. They were not young secularists. They were older folk, many of whom were members of various Protestant-oriented fraternal groups, who never accepted full funding for the Catholic school system, and surely did not accept the idea that all religions should have their own school systems.

Left J.A.B. wrote:

Visit your neighbourhood coffee shop and drop the seperate school issue into the conversation.  It is, as I said, mostly in the older generations, but it is alive and well.

And it was not the bigots that went Tory in the last election, many of them went Green.

Exactly.

 

Bookish Agrarian

I think the last couple of posters attacking a progressive person with a long track record of being involved in progressive politics proves the point he, myself and others have been trying to make.  And the implicit anti- religion attacks are sure to turn off a lot of non-Catholics that might otherwise agree on the larger issues. This is just a taste of how divisive this issue could easily get.  While I support a debate on this issue because that is how democracy works this thread is making me increasingly apprehensive of the consequences of support.

 

 

Jan I highlighted some of the areas I think need to be addressed above already.  But given the last couple of posts I am bowing out of the thread.  I am sure though we will be continuing this in private in the lead up to March.  Don't forget the resolution deadline is likely to be very early January, so if you want something coming in locally we need to get cracking.

Unionist

The party that targets power rather than change will win neither.

Unless history is all wrong, of course...

Fidel

So the NDP goes after this group of voters concerned about democracy tainted by religious influence. Some percentage of the 22 percent of registered voters who "voted strategically" for McGuinty will still be faced with fear of electing another Mike Harris conservative govt to phony majority dictatorship regardless of whether taxpayers fund Catholic schools or Taliban madrassas.

The ONDP still needs to appeal to the 47% of Ontario voters who stayed home last year. Bisson says we need serious dough to campaign with, like the two big money Bay Street parties are armed with when lying and deceiving voters and volleying a stale issue like Catholic school funding back and forth leading up to an election. Next election our two old line parties will discover another ruse issue to sidetrack voters and Bay Street friendly press with.

 

 

Unionist

Which "issue" would you like the ONDP to focus on, Fidel?

Which "issue" is safe enough for those backward voters to understand - with no risk that they'll get angry and pull out their pitchforks?

I grew up in progressive movements and in the trade union, where we understood that we were nothing and we needed to learn from our masters.

With that spirit, nothing scared us. Ever. And we lost a lot of battles and we won a few.

Hello, anybody there?

Fidel

unionist wrote:

Which "issue" would you like the ONDP to focus on, Fidel?

How about Ontario's economy? We've bled hundreds of thousands of good paying jobs since 2003, many of them unionized. Our "persistent" child poverty has produced more children living anywhere below poverty than any other province. Only Liberal B.C. has a higher rate of child poverty.

We have a multi-billion dollar infrastructure deficit, and according to the fifth estate tonight, someone is pulling Smitherman's leg on cost of nuclear power expansion. Liberals say one new Darlington nuclear power station would cost $6 billion - meanwhile Standard&Poor says at least $16 billion. Sounds like another old line party megafiasco in the making.

Ya, anybody there for sure. Frown

Unionist

Fidel wrote:
unionist wrote:

Which "issue" would you like the ONDP to focus on, Fidel?

How about Ontario's economy?

How stirring. How original. We'll focus on the economy. We'll fix child poverty. I can hear the cheers now.

Hint: Don't treat people like children. Assume the truth - that they're smarter than you. Promise them something dramatic, something risky, something bold. Something so exciting that you can actually deliver it [b][i]without[/i][/b] being elected. Something that [b][i]they[/i][/b] need to deliver together with you. Then, deliver what you promised.

I know, I know, it's so very unorthodox, how very naive. Just do it. They'll be yours forever.

ElizaQ ElizaQ's picture

unionist wrote:

How stirring. How original. We'll focus on the economy. We'll fix child poverty. I can hear the cheers now.

 Yes the economy is so unorginal. So much in fact that as it contines to slowly or not so slowly tank around us that it's doubtful that it just might be one of the top issues on people's minds in the next election. 

 I have no idea whether this school issue is or isn't an issue to base the election on and don't particularly care but  I do think that dismissing the economy like this, paricularly in this day and age is pretty naive in it's own right.  Talk about a missed opportunity to actually talk about progressive economic viewpoints in a time where the very foundations of the economic philosophy that this tanking economy  is base on are in question. 

 Yowsa.  

 

 

 

Unionist

ElizaQ wrote:
Yes the economy is so unorginal. So much in fact that as it contines to slowly or not so slowly tank around us that it's doubtful that it just might be one of the top issues on people's minds in the next election.

Think harder. I'm ridiculing the empty nonsense about "focussing on the economy", which every self-serving politician of every stripe is screaming about right now as if they have discovered a new planet.

What in heaven's name are you, Fidel, and everyone else here suggesting that the ONDP [b]SAY[/b] and [b]DO[/b] about the economy?

Do you recall how the ONDP responded to the last economic crisis when it was in government? It betrayed its entire constituency, accomplished nothing, and made itself a pariah for the next 13 years (and counting).

Is there some room for original thought here? Some actual discussion amongst progressives? If the so-called "ECONOMY" is so all-fired important that it displaces basic democratic fundamentals (like education and its future), what exactly (if anything) do you have to say about it?

In short, there is still room for the ONDP to make 4th or 5th place. See how well it's done in 13 years? What exactly is going to change that?

By the way, thanks again for reminding me that people are concerned about the economy. 

 

 

 

[/quote]

Fidel

unionist wrote:

Do you recall how the ONDP responded to the last economic crisis when it was in government? It betrayed its entire constituency, accomplished nothing, and made itself a pariah for the next 13 years (and counting). 

And Ontario Liberals will likely handoff [b]another[/b] billion dollar annual budget deficit - bills for another nuclear megafiasco - and tanking economy to the NDP like happened last time. Deja vu, I say, it looks like deja pew all over again.

janfromthebruce

When I started talking about a unified system of education replacing our present day 4 system of education is was based on the progressive idea of all kids going to school together, and thus the money saved going back into the classroom for all kids to benefit and get a equitable quality education.

But some posters - strategically - wanting to frame this as a religious school concern. It makes for a heated argument. I noted it over and over again, in trying to reframe it. 

So how about sharing buildings, and resources, and administration equally, so all children are funded equitably. How's that. I asked BA that he philosophy agrees and if the right resolution came up but so far it hasn't happen. 

I guess nobody read what the Canadian Civil Liberities Association wrote, as those unprogressive backwards folks think it would be in the best interest of our fast-changing demographics and multicultural society to created a unified system of education delivery in Ontario that works for all children. 

Further, I suggested it not be the focus of the election but for the party to have a position and one debated on the floor. This thread was about contemplation of a unified system of education delivery in the province.  Posters are free to start a topic on the economic in an other area. It shouldn't be either or, but one of many policy positions the party takes. 

I am sorry Jab you consider that I am suggesting that you are losing your inheritated religious education rights that were enshrined in the constitution. I just feel that all kids should go to school together and not be separated out by race, class, gender, or religious affliation. 

Our workplaces are not separated out and those are the places that kids when they grow up end up. I am of the mind that kids play together, live in neighbourhoods together, so why not go to school together. 

ElizaQ ElizaQ's picture

unionist wrote:

ElizaQ wrote:
Yes the economy is so unorginal. So much in fact that as it contines to slowly or not so slowly tank around us that it's doubtful that it just might be one of the top issues on people's minds in the next election.

Think harder. I'm ridiculing the empty nonsense about "focussing on the economy", which every self-serving politician of every stripe is screaming about right now as if they have discovered a new planet.

What in heaven's name are you, Fidel, and everyone else here suggesting that the ONDP [b]SAY[/b] and [b]DO[/b] about the economy?

Do you recall how the ONDP responded to the last economic crisis when it was in government? It betrayed its entire constituency, accomplished nothing, and made itself a pariah for the next 13 years (and counting).

Is there some room for original thought here? Some actual discussion amongst progressives? If the so-called "ECONOMY" is so all-fired important that it displaces basic democratic fundamentals (like education and its future), what exactly (if anything) do you have to say about it?

In short, there is still room for the ONDP to make 4th or 5th place. See how well it's done in 13 years? What exactly is going to change that?

By the way, thanks again for reminding me that people are concerned about the economy.

 Oh, forgive me for bringing up this pesky 'so-called' economy issue as something that might be at all relevant to people over the next few years.  It's nothing big, global economic collapse and all that.  Nah, all the focus on it is just ridiculous self-serving nonsense.

  Besides as you've so dilegently pointed out the ONDP past history pretty much sucked on the whole economy thing.   That's comforting.  Even more comforting to know that at least in your opinion that they have no original thought or that perhaps coming up with some sort of original thought on the whole issue isn't very important.

 I would love for the entire focus be on things like education and all of those other democratic things and principles  that I do agree are very important.  Unfortunately the operation of those things are dependent on this 'so-called' economy thing and generally if past history is indication are some of the first areas that get the shaft in terms of money and resources when the economy goes into a downturn.  

 I hope that what happens with this so called economy is only a small crisis here in Ontario. I really do.  I'm not optimistic though about that, especially with some of the news regarding the collaspse in global trading indexes that's been coming out today which adds to everything else. 

 I just can't see how any party ONDP or otherwise is going to be relevant at all if it doesn't address the ramfications of the economic situation head on and as a priority in the coming years.  

 

 

Fidel

It's funny that the McGuinty Liberals have stopped talking about school funding now they have their 22 percent majority. The economy seems to  be very much at the forefront of their secret talks with the Charest government.  McGuinty and Charest hiding details of trade deal Sounds like NAFTA-lite for provinces. I suppose Friedman and von Hayek will never die as long as we have these low lifes running things. Why work a tired issue like the economy in its death throes when the NDP could be out there hypnotizing somewhere around 22 percent of clued-in registered voters with a red cape and bull issue like funding for Sunday schools? And we can be sure that all of the progressive and fickle 22 percent who voted for the Liberals last year will immediately swing over to the NDP once they realize we have Ataturk wedded to social democrats and leading the party they never considered voting for last election. It's a match made in heaven.  And our second ONDP government could then proceed to boost social spending and save the economy from obsolete ideology when no one's looking, and all inside of one term in power, because we'll have laid out religious school defunding in great detail. Of course, we'd have to ram through any and all plans for the economy and circumventing political opposition, and certainly without public consultations as per normal for Ontario, especially since we won't have campaigned on anything in that loose regard. Sounds good to me and the 4 million or so non-voters. We'll wing it like the other two parties with extremely vague to translucent references to a socio-economic plan of some sort and blind'em with footwork. That should get them out to the polls for a change. As long as we have Bay Street's blessing and moral support, it should work!  The ONDP could realize a "massive majority" the likes of which CBC reported McGuinty winning in '07. Excalibur and lady of the lake come to mind. ONDP could become the newest party of fisher kings and annointed bottom feeders and rulers of the wasteland.

Michelle

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