Public funding for all religious schools is not "equality"; it's compounding an egregious error.I tend to not think that equality is "worse" than discrimination.
I don't think it's ideal and there were many problems in Tory's plan. But my approach has always been "fund them all or fund none of them." Giving it to some kids and not others absed on tehir religion I simply have difficulty justifying, no matter what the historical context.
What about Muslims, Protestants, Jews, etc.?
And dont forget the "Plains of Abraham"
You dont have to be Catholic to be an old conservative with obsolete views
Based on where you live, tehre's already a pretty good chance that your school won't be all that diverse. By attending a private school, I think my school experience was probably more diverse than had I gone to the public school in my neighbourhood (Forest Hill).Racially and culturally, you're probably correct. However, by economics and class, you were certainly well-insulated from the harsh reality of this unfair world.
Racially and culturally, you're probably correct. However, by economics and class, you were certainly well-insulated from the harsh reality of this unfair world.
What's your point? We should get rid of private schools in general?
Racially and culturally, you're probably correct. However, by economics and class, you were certainly well-insulated from the harsh reality of this unfair world.
What's your point? We should get rid of private schools in general?
Racially and culturally, you're probably correct. However, by economics and class, you were certainly well-insulated from the harsh reality of this unfair world.
What's your point? We should get rid of private schools in general?
Racially and culturally, you're probably correct. However, by economics and class, you were certainly well-insulated from the harsh reality of this unfair world.
What's your point? We should get rid of private schools in general?
sorry, that psoted multiple times and i'm not sure how to delete teh duplicates.
Public funding for all religious schools is not "equality"; it's compounding an egregious error.I tend to not think that equality is "worse" than discrimination.
If this was the only egregious error in Canadian society today, the democracy gap wouldn't be the chasm that it is
An improved public education system wouldn't help close the democracy gap?
I beg to differ.
It would also reduce demand for private schooling.
PJC is deliberately confusing the bilingual and multicultural approach of modern and progressive Canadians with outdated and reactionary conservative thought. He almost gets away with it, because the Conservatives have moved on from their assimilationist approach to their current 'divide and conquer' strategy, leaving 'one (Anglican) church, one (English) language' orphaned.
But our reality is that the status quo is inequitable and unacceptable.
There are two solutions, Peter: Either fund all religious education, or none. I choose the latter. Not so much out of fear of the muslim madrasah, but more out of fear of the far-right evangelicalism infecting us from the south, and the constant attacks on science and good sense which are retarding their society. I can defend my choice.
Are you really trying to defend the current inequality of religion in Ontario?
An improved public education system wouldn't help close the democracy gap?
I beg to differ.
It would also reduce demand for private schooling.
So long as we're not talking about what they've managed to do to post-secondary ed and health care, then perhaps yes. We won't get to where you think we should be with this horror show running things in Toronto and Ottawa currently
Star-Spangled Canadian, to LTJ's point, I don't know if you followed the discussion on this issue during last year's election, but there's certainly no issue of closing schools. This is about kids learning and playing together during the week, while after hours and on weekends, their parents can induct them into whatever faith they like - or even fulltime in a private school.
If you believe ending public funding to the Catholic school system should be the Number 1 priority of government today, I'm dying to find out what you think priorities 2, 3 and 4 are.
If you believe ending public funding to the Catholic school system should be the Number 1 priority of government today, I'm dying to find out what you think priorities 2, 3 and 4 are.
Who said this should be the "number 1 priority of government today"?
http://www.thestar.com/News/Ontario/article/463492
Toronto Catholic school trustee Rob Davis accused Prue of having a
"secret plan" and called it "an assault" on Catholics. "Needless to
say, Catholics across the province will be watching the NDP leadership
race very closely," he said.
This is the same Rob Davis who ran two smear campaigns (his own and as John Adams' campaign manager) against Councillor Joe Mihevc in St. Pauls by distributing literature in Jewish neighborhoods that said he was anti-Semitic. I guess some in the NDP fear Davis mobilizing Catholics against this "assault."
If you believe ending public funding to the Catholic school system should be the Number 1 priority of government today, I'm dying to find out what you think priorities 2, 3 and 4 are.
Whereas I'm dying to find out how you learned to type without learning to read first.
I may be over sensitive but I suspect many people wanting to cut funding to Catholic schools are the same Orange order tyoes who take me and other Catholics as slitghly backward, preist -ridden lesser folk who should learn to "speal white", be modern be civilzied , be English, be protestant.
Great argument. Let's try it out:
Did you support John Tory's fund-the-faiths plan? No? Are you perhaps anti-Semitic? Or Islamophobic? To prove you aren't, you'd better promote stuffing money up the backsides of those religious-based "educators" as well.
Doesn't work, my friend. Elementary logical fallacy. When someone says, "We need more protection for free speech in Canada", do you say: "Yeah, I'll bet some of the people saying that just want more freedom for white supremacist Nazi propaganda on the internet"?
Religious public education is an anachronistic, divisive travesty. It must be abolished. The fact that the only religious public schools in Ontario are Catholic ones doesn't mean that supporters of true public education are anti-Catholic. It means that some supporters of Catholic public schools will use any argument to protect their privilege for a little while longer.
.We all know
this is an issue with strong feelings and it is easy to give way to bad
shit. But then sometimes its necessary to air out strong feelings.
Like Excuse me sisters and brothers, but that's my rights you are taking about . That's right, you are discussing my rights, and the rights of a whole lot of people, that you recognize are somewhere in the constitution of our Country, the fundiamental basic rights we live and tht you think you can ignore or get away with breaking. And you are talking of taking away my rights..
With
a little humour, I enclose the words of a song, like many I grew up
with. As people suspect from my ID, I have a strong Irish Catholic
background. I also have Welsh Methodist, Quebecoise Catholique and some
Aboriginal. I grew up in Ontario in the 1950's the middle of 43
years of Conservative Government, government by the descendents of the
Family Compact and the Orange Order.
My father told me tales of
losing jobs because he was a Catholic and of the signs at Cherry Beach: No
dogs or Catholics allowed- as there signs that said- No dogs or Jew
allowed. We, my family, my "people". saw Ontario as right wing and
racist and English and Protestant, but then I repeat myself. g;. When I
was a kid we had religious wars in the town I grew up in, Protestant
kids ( those in the public or what we called Protestant school) mostly
UK ,"white". "nordic" "aryan" background in my totally biased recall)
Catholic kids ( those who went to the Catholic school- mainly children
of immigrants or Irish or Italian, the odd Francophone, a litle more
tan as I would see it= a little "lesser greed")) on the other and then we went at it. When i went to Catholic
High School my parents had to pay tuition.
For
years, my party, the NDP, the party of labour, and the Liberals. the
presumed party of French and Catholic and Immigrants) had supported
full funding for Catholic schools in Ontario and the Conservatives, the old right
wing reactionary rascist party of the Orange Order and Family compact had been denying what we saw as our right. .. I recall 1985, the year we got the right to full
funding of Catholics schools in Ontario as a victory, for justice and
equlaity supported by most progressives.
And
I recall 1985 as the year the Conservative right wing regime lost power
as the old Protestant right wing reacionary Orange Order ( as I recall
them and a lot of political commentators saw) stayed home . So we had
a muted "Quiet Revolution" before the Conservative Counter Revolution
the iLiberal/ NDP accord that led to modernizatio of much of government and the implenentation of an all party agreemen
to fully fund Catholci schools in Ontario..
,
Again, please pardon me if I seem over
sensitive but I bear my scars ( as we all do) and I get very suspicious
when people start talking how easy it would be to do away with what I
and my "people" perceived as our moral and constituional right we fought
for and won. And my party stood for that right then and now.
A different perspective?
solidarity
Peter J. Cassidy
Peterjcassidy, thanks for the info about your background. Like many of us, your people suffered persecution for your ethnicity, your nationalist longings (in the old country), and your religion.
But I would still like to know whether you support full funding of schools of all religions.
So, Peter - is ethnic memory of ancient injustices sufficient reason for your 'moral' right to something no other people have?
Has anyone ever asked a teacher about the experience of teaching a roomful of seven-year-olds from a dozen ethnic backgrounds - and many of them newly arrived - and what the teacher thinks it might mean for the students' collective future to be taught all together? Can anyone imagine an improved society through their separation? Hope not.
As for the parent of your public school child...they are desperately hoping that with private schools skimming off the upper middle class kids, and with other demands on their taxes for health and welfare, there might be something left over to support a decent education for their kids.
Strange how the great carrot, equality of opportunity becomes such a threatening idea in a "meritocracy", where failure often means a terrible future indeed.
That, folks, is the real world of parent and student, not an ideal construct. That is what is on the mind of the parent and teacher. And it leaves out all sorts of even more terrible possibilities facing the kids today, resulting from our squandering Earth's resources.
Just so we don't become too far removed from the classroom in our thinking of "what is best".
Thank you George Victor. Let's keep it centred on children/students in the classroom and their education needs. Education is and should be three important principals: creating well-rounded thoughtful citizens who can wholly participate in society - citizenship; two, creating critical thinkers for tomorrow's society where - one thing educators can tell us all - nobody knows what the "jobs" "work" will be; and three, based on equitable and fair distribution of educational resources for all students so that they can take advantage of all opportunties in the classroom and in school activities (programs and extracurricular activities).
It is about merging a system of delivery of education so all kids win. One must not lose sight of what the focus should be - kids in desks who have hopes and dreams of a better now and tomorrow.
Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!
One must always be open especially to listen to one's critics more closely such as expressed by left jab and Peter. I respect both of them and value their opinions. I hear their concerns that Catholics suffered discrimination due to their religion orientation and hear their "fears" that consolidation the delivery of education in the province will override their hard-earned "rights" guaranteed in the constitution and a fully funded separate school system.
I also think that they also can empathize with others who also feel that our present education system (by showing favour of Catholism) may also discriminate against other citizens who may also want an education system that pays for their chosen religious education, such as other Christians, jews, muslims, later day saints, and so on. Fractioning our education system more would duplicate the costs already born by taxpaying Ontarians. But as an educator, more so, it fractures our citizens across religious divides rather than unites us in purpose of education of Ontarians.
One must not forget how our education was created nor past injustices and thus use that historical understanding to forge a new inclusive framework based on our collective interests - educating children to be productive citizens who positively contribute to society.
Under a unified system, religious instruction within or outside the school day (and where there is a sufficient interest) would provide all students and their parents an opportunity to participate fully in meeting their educational needs. At the same time providing a world religion course where all kids to come together in one diverse classroom to talk openly about their beliefs/non-beliefs would allow all kids to acquire respect of difference, discover similarity of foundational religious philosophy and practice and decrease discrimination practices and beliefs.
Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!
But I would still like to know whether you support full funding of schools of all religions.
What about socialized medicine? Or should everyone pay their own way with that, too? And you have the U.S. as a model for the most privatized system in the world to point to. Why should we be paying for someone else's genetic defects predisposing them to having religious views and other diseases? Besides, corporate welfare rolls are burgeoning with needy fat cats. With all due respect for ruthless efficiency in government, money doesnt grow on trees, y'know
I'm still hearing to hear from those who say opposing separate school funding is "anti-Catholic" whether not funding Jewish or Islamic schools is "anti-Semitic" or "Islamophobic."
I would still like to know whether you support full funding of schools of all religions.
No. It may not have made the news in Quebec, but John Tory tried that last year. Didn't fly.
In fact, it resulted in the Greens getting 8.02% of the vote in Ontario last fall, as opposed to 7.95% of the vote in Ontario last month. So 0.07% of the Ontario electorate cared enough to switch to the Greens on this provincial issue.
Now, how are you making out with your campaign to take "il sait porter la croix" out of O Canada?
I have been reading all of this with interest, and I must say I still believe government funding of religious schools is wrong, on so many levels.
___________________________________________________________
"watching the tide roll away"
I would still like to know whether you support full funding of schools of all religions.No.
So you support public funding of Catholic schools but not other religions?
At least you answered.
As for the cross in O Canada, you may recall that God was stuck into the English version only in 1966 or so. I'll give both of them a pass if you agree that children of all faiths should have only one public school to attend, to learn together and sing the national anthem together.
I think that proposal enhances social harmony, more so than your offkey bias in favour of Catholic education.
We should be more like Americans. Give us your tired, poor, and huddled masses, but don't expect to be anything more than worker-drones for capitalism in this country while the CIA and Brits and Saudis fund the Islamic radicalization of Central Asia and around the world. But we don't really want that religious nonsense in our country. Go Taliban!!
We should be more like Americans. Give us your tired, poor, and huddled masses, but don't expect to be anything more than worker-drones for capitalism in this country while the CIA and Brits and Saudis fund the Islamic radicalization of Central Asia and around the world. But we don't really want that religious nonsense in our country. Go Taliban!!
That's the best argument I've heard on babble yet for Catholic public schools in Ontario.
I thought it was fuckingunbelievable, at best, go figure.
___________________________________________________________
"watching the tide roll away"
I understand. You like Catholic schools, and you don't like the Taliban. Thanks for sharing.
That's the best argument I've heard on babble yet for Catholic public schools in Ontario.
But I thought you had a certain appreciation for the Taliban, "brothers in creed of the Northern Alliance" according to RAWA? And I'm pretty sure you dont want to know what they think of SSM.
Personally, I don't like this separate school stuff. We could save a whopping $3 point something million dollars and give that to General Motors without any strings attached and subsidize some of the cost of shipping Canadian jobs to other countries. Or our fiscal frankensteins in power could cut property tax mil rates by at least one gazillionth.
I understand. You like Catholic schools, and you don't like the Taliban. Thanks for sharing.
Taliban wasnt really their Islam in Afghanistan and Pakistan until the 1980s-90s. There was nothing democratic about the Talibanization of Pakistan and Afghanistan.
And I understand you admire the American way as have previous federal governments when signing trade deals with the US and placing our own culture at risk of Americanization for years and years. I admire some of the American way, too, but I think the comparison ends there
[u][url=http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=83a8f2df-e0eb-4c3... Baak, president, Education Equality in Ontario:[/url][/u]
We can respectfully disagree with those Ontario Catholics who publicly
espouse support for the extension of full public funding for the
religious schools of all faiths. But we cannot respect the views of
those who suggest that they should keep an unwarranted privilege that
no one else can have. That is intolerance and bigotry, and is an
offence against the God they presume to serve.
[u][url=http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=83a8f2df-e0eb-4c3... Baak, president, Education Equality in Ontario:[/url][/u]
I'm not fearful or intolerant of public schools providing Islamic or Jewish religious education. But should we also include funding of Taliban madrassas in your neighborhood? Canada's good friends in the U.S., that country you and I both admire, don't like to admit that this is exactly what they've done with US taxpayers footing some of the bills along with Saudi royals in the recent past, and for all we know, continuing to do so today.
I'm not fearful or intolerant of public schools providing Islamic or Jewish religious education.
I am. I fear and do not tolerate such use of my tax money or yours.
But should we also include funding of Taliban madrassas in your neighborhood?
Certainly not, nor of schools serving any other misogynist homophobic institutions, including ones headed up by alumni of the Hitlerjugend.
I'm not fearful or intolerant of public schools providing Islamic or Jewish religious education.I am. I fear and do not tolerate such use of my tax money or yours.
I'm a lot more worried about my tax dollars going to fund U.S.-led military excursions on the other side of the world, and about corporate welfare, and subsidizing nuclear power for majority foreign owned and controlled industries in Ontario who dont want to pay their taxes, and corporate welfare in general, and unchecked white collar crime costing ~$20 billion to the economy every year according to a York U law professor. But I worry very little about the growing Asian population in Canada having their own schools and costing a few bob extra.
But should we also include funding of Taliban madrassas in your neighborhood?Certainly not, nor of schools serving any other misogynist homophobic institutions, including ones headed up by alumni of the Hitlerjugend.
Ah! So it was okay for our friends in America, that country whose separation of church and state we admire, to fund the Talibanization of 1980s Central Asia, as long as it was to war with and extirpate secular socialist thought, as you said once before?
We can respectfully disagree with those Ontario Catholics who publicly
espouse support for the extension of full public funding for the
religious schools of all faiths. But we cannot respect the views of
those who suggest that they should keep an unwarranted privilege that
no one else can have. That is intolerance and bigotry, and is an
offence against the God they presume to serve.
Lord, give me strength. 
What this blankedty -blank idiot needs to to know is that we are talking about rights, rights specifically.
Denominationa School Rights in the Canadian Constitution
This is a bit of a complicated issue involving some knowledge of the history of Canada ,the constitution of Canada and some knowledge of human rights and poltical rights and the differences betwen different types of rights. This guy either by his ignorance or bigotry or both does not deserve to be in the discussion or quoted in the discussion.
Give me strength give me strength 
How is it that your religious sect deserves a privilege in perpetuity that no others may ever enjoy?
And how dare you claim it to be your 'right'?
I think people would accept these kinds of high level executive decisions if they knew that everyone is in agreement. Right now we have a phony 22 percent government in Toronto, and I don't agree with much of anything they've rammed down everyone's throats so far or otherwise neglected. Before one more piece of legislation is passed in Toronto, I'd like to see the democracy gap closed so that one person equals one vote, and then take an electoral pulse. Until then I don't recognize these Bay St. phonies in TO or anything they have to say on much of anything. They're illegit as far as I'm concerned α Ω
Denominationa School Rights in the Canadian Constitution
This is a bit of a complicated issue involving some knowledge of the history of Canada ,the constitution of Canada and some knowledge of human rights and poltical rights and the differences betwen different types of rights. This guy either by his ignorance or bigotry or both does not deserve to be in the discussion or quoted in the discussion.
That was all a long time ago. Catholics were traditionally given extraodinary rights as a way of defending the cultural integrity of their faith, both as a religion, but also because Catholics were from minorities that had real reasons to fear a superior society that was predominantly Protestant. That was all very well and fine, then, but this is now, and Canada has changed, and the laws must change with it.
For anyone on the left it is patently clear that Catholics should have no right to preferential treatment in a multicultural society. Its been a long time since these privileges were set aside to take into account the fact that Canada (non-Native Canada that is) was basically a bi-national state, not a multicultural one.
How is it that your religious sect deserves a privilege in perpetuity that no others may ever enjoy?
And how dare you claim it to be your 'right'?
The subject is rights. Wie ilive in a country called Canada which is diferent in many ways from other countries such as the United States of America or the United Kingdom or Cuba. In Canada we have rights, some similar to the rights found in countries like the USA or UK or Cuba, some different , For example, we do not have the second amendment right to bear arms as found in the USA. and we have language rights and rights to Denomiantional schools that pepole in the United States do not have .
But make no mistake about it, the topic under discussion is rights-specifically speaking my right and the rights of others,Catholics and Protestants and others , in Ontario and other provinces, to denomaintional schools - The more sophisticated, or perhaps it is better educated, of those opposed to funding for Catholic schools acknowledge that , acknowlege we are dealing with rights, rights as found in the constitutions of Canada and adjudicated in many courts of law and parliaments..
When people call thiis a sect claiming privilege they are just revealing their ignorance, as you just diid.
And we shouldnt be funding Indigenous schools or native culture either. That bunch have been molly coddled for far too long and should be Americanized along with the rest of us, according to general philosophy preached by some of us. We're the best and screw the rest. One dull and grey worker-drone state for all equally. Who needs to recognize the needs of cultures several thousands of years old? Because we, too, can become a 51st state and have our 19 and 20 year-olds travel to far away lands, meet people from interesting cultures, and kill them. In fact, we're doing it now and electing warmongering plutocrats to power in Ottawa whether we like it or not.
Balkanization of the schools system is a horrible idea.
The US school system is a horrible idea. Do we have to do everything that country instructs our stooges to do? Why not razz them a little once in a while and do things our way? Maybe we could elect the first woman to lead the stoogeocracy for a change, or radicalize our electoral system before following one more diktat from anybody who doesnt earn a true majority or coalition authority?
Viva La Revolución
quote
Balkanization of the schools system is a horrible idea.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Right on.
And let's leave off discussing the balkanizing effect of immigration and decide how we can begin to build a world for our descendants that is not threatened by our pitiful lifestyles.
How is it possible that conversation can go in the nuanced, pettyfogging direction of this thread even while another thread displays the latest evidence of our self-destructing ways.
Is it possible that discussing the schooling of children can be a palliative act, protecting the psyche from the outrageous effrontery of species extinction?
Personally, I don't like this separate school stuff. We could save a whopping $3 point something million dollars....
I am curious Fidel where you are getting this "$3 point something million dollars" idea from? If it is in reference to what I suggested - based on one mid-size shared school board areas, than you missed the main economic message for program reinvestment.
If my Public school board amalgamated with our neighbouring Catholic school board, we could reduce capacity of 5,500 student surplus spaces that we share between us. Not only would we be able to get rid of partially filled schools, but also we would be able to eliminate the redundant administration and duplicated services that these two boards prop up. Doing this, we would free up over 3.6 million dollars annually and another million dollars if we calculated according to our smaller Catholic board’s per pupil funding allocation.
If these are the millions saved in amalgamating these two small boards, imagine the millions saved across the province by ending this overlap? Enough is enough. Instead of dividing, we should be measuring and aligning our legacy. We should be calculating the potential savings across the province.
Imagine what we could do together in education, for all kids, from all faith and non-faith communities alike, with a single public school system for each official language only. We could direct our savings into effective and sustainable student programs, services, and school classrooms.
Therefore, re-investments in student programming becomes the priority over investment in organizational structures.
A student-centered funding strategy will enable us to provide quality educational programs and better-specialized supports with more overall choice for all students, as well as better overall supervision to increase safety and to optimize education outcomes. Smaller class sizes for all could become the norm. A properly funded transportation system would treat all student riders equally and provide better bussing service. We could clear the air by upgrading and retrofitting our remaining school buildings, do much needed capital repairs and complete long overdue maintenance orders to make our schools healthy and environmentally friendly. By properly funding music, art, drama, sports programs, and popular extracurricular activities, we could finally dispense with student fees and fundraising for these essentials.
Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!
The US school system is a horrible idea. Do we have to do everything that country instructs our stooges to do?
No. But if the U.S.:
1. was founded on separation of church and state;
2. rants against Islamic fundamentalism as a cover for invasion, occupation, pillage, and murder;
and I had to choose one of the above to "copy", I know which one it would be.
