Should the left split from the NDP?

Whatever.

The fundis are beginning to speak up! It is as I thought.

 

[i][b]Brian Topp[/b]: Our friends on the blue team seem to mostly focus on sticks, and not so much on carrots. ;)[/i]

Haha... MISC...

Almost as bad as C.R.A.P.P. !

 

[i][b]Brian Topp[/b]: Our friends on the blue team seem to mostly focus on sticks, and not so much on carrots. ;)[/i]

Not the left, but perhaps the saints who recoil at rendering unto Caesar.

A coalition may end up being a failed experiment, but if New Democrats enter into it with clear eyes and good intentions I think it's well worth making.

Yeah but the only reason Die Linke exists is because of MMP and East Germany's historical ties to the U.S.S.R. That's the only way they broke the 5% barrier to join the Bundestag.

There's some scary people in that party by the way. Some of their candidates have had ties to the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi]Stasi[/url].

 

 

[i][b]Brian Topp[/b]: Our friends on the blue team seem to mostly focus on sticks, and not so much on carrots. ;)[/i]

wikipedia wrote:

 

Erroneous Stasi claim deleted

Deleted

At least seven members of the Bundestag of "Die Linke" are former employees of the Stasi which consistently violated human rights in East Germany by doing murders, tortures and other cruel crimes[2].

as the claim was later corrected by the original source (Marianne
Birthler, the official for the Stasi-document archive) - not seven, but
an unknown, lesser number; and not Bundestag members, but Left Party
candidates.[3] Rd232 talk 14:02, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

and of course not "employees", but "unofficial collaborators". Rd232 talk 09:03, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

 

 

[URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Left_(Germany)]Link[/URL] *Not sure why the link does not work 

I still think it is of some significance that they were "unofficial collaborators."

 

[i][b]Brian Topp[/b]: Our friends on the blue team seem to mostly focus on sticks, and not so much on carrots. ;)[/i]

Interested Observer wrote:

Yeah but the only reason Die Linke exists is because of MMP and East Germany's historical ties to the U.S.S.R. That's the only way they broke the 5% barrier to join the Bundestag.

There's some scary people in that party by the way. Some of their candidates have had ties to the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi]Stasi[/url].

 

 

[i][b]Brian Topp[/b]: Our friends on the blue team seem to mostly focus on sticks, and not so much on carrots. ;)[/i]

Anyone even vaguely associated with east German politics before unification had connections to the Stasi. I can show that the Rabbi killed in Mumbai Chaba House likely had connections to international money launderers who most probably had connections to Mossad.

Eek! It means nothing.

Jacob Richter wrote:

 

Before I continue with the topic at hand, I would like to express my lack of surprise at Harper's Nixonian machinations (political funding, bans on strikes, and especially eavesdropping) coming back at him, in the form of political machinations from the other side.

That being said, now that the NDP has formally "sold its soul" to the coalitionist devil (as opposed to less formal class collaboration in the post-war period), and given the surge in the interest in class politics resulting from this financial crap (Die Linke and the class-based third parties in the U.S. come to mind), should the left split from the NDP and finally form a politico-ideologically independent class party?

Not really. The left should organize irregardless of the NDP. Effective organization, and dissolusionment will attract the left to any left wing orgnaization. The NDP is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, and there is no reason to pay much attention to it. Its good to be critical, but this "sell-out" if it can really be called a sell out is entirely in keeping with the NDP's middle of the road policies. They are a good match for the Liberals, despite all the posturing during election seasone, as we shall see.

I dont expect it to be around more than the next five years anyway.

No. it only serves to isolate the left from the established labour movement. though the labour movement at the moment is callaborationist in character there is no reason it wont learn from experience (example, winnipeg general strike, paris commune, russian revolution, german revolution and then counter-revolution). The left must work within the labour movement thay have not the revolutionary one we want. we must indeed organize independently and seek as much exposure within the instituitions of the working class which is including the CLC and the NDP. we organize seperately but march together, the left needs to patiently explain its position to the rank and file and when history inevitably proves class callaborationism is futile we must be there to harness the dissallusionment and in this attmosphear where we are known, time tested members and leaders in the labour movement can the lessons of history be explained by those who saw them and grasped by those who can apply them in the future (one hopes more people then not see the error of their ways but doesnt count on this, the left must got tot them). to reiterate all splitting serves to do is isolate the left from the movement.

I have yet to see a political program put forward by the "left", of any practical relevance, that is in substance different from that of the NDP. That said, should a political formation appear with that tack in mind, I would be very interested to see how they would fare both electorally and in terms of grassroots organizing. As a moderate New Democrat, it would be good to see a formal iteration of exactly what constitutes the left positions the NDP has abandoned, and what program would actually be considered left-wing. Then we could actually have a fact-based discussion of the issue.

Bonne chance, sincerely.

Cueball wrote:

I can show that the Rabbi killed in Mumbai Chaba House likely had connections to international money launderers who most probably had connections to Mossad.

Really?  I would be interested in seeing the proof.

1.)  I note yet again that the Waffle was only expelled in Onatrio - although there is some event about the expulsion / sanctioning of the entire New Brunswick NDP which somehow involves the Waffle.  In Saskatchewan, far from being expelled, the Waffle walked out - with Premier Allan Blakeney standing at a mic and pleading with them to stay.

 

2.) Jacob's comment suggesting that the electoral failure of the post-1974 Waffle was due to the country was moving to the right suggests that Jacob wasn't alive yet in 1974 - or at least wasn't paying attention.  The left generally was doing fairly well until much later in the decade.

I'm not sure who would go if a "split" occurred.

Is there a single MP (or elected MPP or MLA) who would go? A single trade union? A single union leader?  Is there anyone who isn't already outside the NDP or marginal within it who opposes things at this point?

 I think splits will come when splitting issues emerge. If the first coalition budget contains coroporate tax cuts but working mothers are told they have to wait for childcare.... we may see a split. But until then people are excited about the possible.

Labonza wrote:

No.
Use this opportunity to get some decent bills passed, gut Harper's corporate tax cuts, drastically move forward the end date of Afghanistan, and undo as much of the past few years as possible first.
Think of the good of the country and this chance to set the agenda.If this coalition can stick for awhile, the party can move forward on many priorities.Show the country that the NDP can be resposible and reasonable instead of the socialist nutbags the Globe/Natl Post/ CTV/right wing talk shows like to portray.

I too was genuinely excited about the prospects of a coalition until I started thinking about it more. I was thinking the same thing - the NDP has the Liberals over a barrel, so to speak (the Bloc does too) in that they cannot survive without them. It seemed to me that this would be a perfect opportunity to implement a number of progressive policies, including the ones you mentioned (but also some form of proportional representation, which I think would be massively important to the NDP's futures). 

However, we've already seen the coalition partners (Lib and NDPs) stating, quite unequivocably, that there is no 'minimum requirement' for the NDP's participation. No policy demands, apparently, will make-or-break this coalition. 

Including, I might add, killing the $50b corporate tax-cut giveaway the NDP more-or-less hinged their campaign on. Nope, the NDP gets a whiff of power and suddenly, massive corporate tax cuts are how social-democratic parties improve the economy.

 (Edited to add that I don't think a new left party in Canada would be very useful, regardless of my disenchantment with the NDP. The conditions for it to actually happen just aren't there - look at QS in Quebec, which has far more hospitible conditions for a genuinely left party than the RoC. I thinkbuilding those conditions needs to be goal #1 for the left, not overly ambitious re-runs of fringe left parties).

I'm also worried the NDP's involvement in government will mean the neutering/spaying of otherwise-effective left social movements - it's happened in Manitoba, it can happen federally, too).

They were prolly working for Liz and Phil.

You think? Or is it possible that if the waffle had not left the NDP, Bob Rae might not have happened, and then the NDP might be on radar in Ontario? Just a thought.

No.  No new parties until after we have some form of PR functioning in this country.  I didn't hear it mentioned in their plan,  however.  Perhaps it's being saved for that last year, the part that Gilles wouldn't sign on to...

 

Where would the Left go?

Krago wrote:

Cueball, let me understand this.

You posted several articles linking a Lubavitch rabbi in Seattle (Sholom Ber Levitin) to money laundering.  The rabbi killed in Mumbai was Gavriel Holtzberg from Brooklyn.  And the only connection you offer between the two is that "A Seattle rabbi knows the family of the rabbi killed by gunmen."

That's bullshit.  Pure anti-Semitic bullshit.

 

I am glad someone pointed this out.  Cueball, how do you have any idea that the Rabbi who was killed (and gruesomely tortured according to reports - fortunately his orphan toddler did not have to witness this) has or had any connection to the Seattle-based rabbi? I am not sure how what you are doing is any different from the Islamaphobic attempts to link every last mosque and Muslim person to the radical extremist violent groups.

 

Many unions support the coalition.

Greens support the coalition.

Among communists, socialists, Marxists, and others:

the Young Communist League-stuck with the Communist Party have declared hmmm. well not overt support, but calls it "very important democratic development".  Calls for the Tories to leave. 

http://ycl-ljc.blogspot.com/ 

Fightback is calling for Harper's removal but is very vocal in opposing the coalition.

http://www.marxist.ca/

the Marxist-Leninist party is calling for Harper's defeat, and the set up of "committees for democratic renewal"  I assume worker's councils/soviets.

http://www.cpcml.ca/Tmld2008/D38173.htm#1 

Well, that's today's political weather. 

---------------------------------------------------------

why is it that polling booths look like cattle chutes?

Krago wrote:

Cueball, let me understand this.

You posted several articles linking a Lubavitch rabbi in Seattle (Sholom Ber Levitin) to money laundering.  The rabbi killed in Mumbai was Gavriel Holtzberg from Brooklyn.  And the only connection you offer between the two is that "A Seattle rabbi knows the family of the rabbi killed by gunmen."

That's bullshit.  Pure anti-Semitic bullshit.

How predictable. Point is this. And anyone who wants to establish the actual train of the conversation can see it, unless of course they are riding their ideological hobby horse like you, is charges that certain people in Eastern European politics having "connections" to the Stasi can be pretty spurious and tendentious.  After all what is a "connection" anyway? The Stasi were everywhere, and connected to everyone.

In other words, I am glad you agree. As I said: "It means nothing." Same is true here. The fact that these two Rabbis, the one caught up in the international Israeli based money laundering scandal, and the one killed in Mumbai being connected in this manner, does not necessarily impugn the second.

No more than it impugns me.

But the connection is not just personal, it is also organizational. 

As for this particular case. Lets get it straight right now. The Chabad Houses are not like the JCC. They Chabad movement is an extreme right wing, highly ideological messianic Hasidic cult. Many of its members believe that the last leader of the movement was the prophet, that all Palestinians Arabs should be expelled both from Israel, and the West Bank, and Gaza. They are very much a heart and soul element of the

settlers movement.

I for one believe Sholom Ber Levitin, when he says he had no idea of what he was getting into when he was mailing off half million dollar packages to Panama in the 1980's, I also think that his ideological predelictions brought him into contact with some unsavory types and allowed him to engage in more than a little wishful thinking and self-delussion. I would also note that the people in the Chabad movement seem to believe that their conscience supercedes the rule of law. I would not at all be suprised if the same were true of the operator of the Mumbai Chabad House.

Shin Beit are now operating in Kashmir in co-operation with Indian government.  What precisely is the ISA doing in Kashmir, anyway? Where do its members go when they hang out in Mumbai?

Does this mean that Gavriel Noach Holtzberg was guilty of anything in particular? Not at all. But, I want to dispose of this fiction that Holtzberg was assassinated only because he was a Jew. There are lots of Jews in Mumbai, so why Chabad house and why Holtzberg and the people with him in particular?

In the list of those killed in the attack on Mumbai are a number of notable law enforcement officials specializing in anti-terror operations, including the chief of the anti-terror squad Hemant Karkare, commissioner of police (east) Ashok Kamte, tactical co-ordinator Vijay Salaskar and Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg whose assassins believed was an associate of the ISA, which is now operating in Kashmir under the wing of the Indian government.

Bullshit.  Your explanation is bullshit.  Your non-apology is bullshit.

Someone posted about Die Linke and the Stasi, and you decided to accuse the rabbi killed in Mumbai of being connected to money laundering.  When I challenged you, your "proof" was ridiculous.

You could have written, "I was wrong to post that.  It was a mistake.", but you didn't.  I don't believe for one second that it was purely coincidental that you choose a Jewish rabbi to accuse of criminal activities.

Pure anti-Semitic bullshit.

Triple post

Krago wrote:

Bullshit.  Your explanation is bullshit.  Your non-apology is bullshit.

Someone posted about Die Linke and the Stasi, and you decided to accuse the rabbi killed in Mumbai of being connected to money laundering.  When I challenged you, your "proof" was ridiculous.

You could have written, "I was wrong to post that.  It was a mistake.", but you didn't.  I don't believe for one second that it was purely coincidental that you choose a Jewish rabbi to accuse of criminal activities.

Pure anti-Semitic bullshit.

Any intelligent person can read the thread and see what I said. You are right, I didn't appologize for anything. Nor will I. Everything I posted is a matter of public record.

I did not say that the Holtzberg was involved with money laundering. I said that he was connected to people who were. It is a fact.

Chabad is a tightly knit international extreme right wing Hasidic cult that has been used as a cover for money laundering operations of Israeli organizations. I personally suspect that the 1980's stuff was tied in with Iran-Contra, but I can't establish that.

Not sure whether your whip did the trick, Michelle, but we are struggling back onto the track of the thread. Whatever works, eh?

Cueball wrote:

Chabad is a tightly knit international extreme right wing Hasidic cult that has been used as a cover for money laundering operations of Israeli organizations.

You know, Cueball, you should watch your mouth. I know you never apologize, but this time you should. You talk about Lubavitcher Hassidim the way Islamophobes talk about Muslims. So just quit it, no matter how hard it is for you.