I need to be convinced about this coalition!!

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Star Spangled C...
I need to be convinced about this coalition!!

Okay, so the consensus on these boards seems pretty much unanimous in favour of bringing down the Tory government and replacing it with this coalition. I ahve to admit that I ahve some doubts and concerns and would love to hear  some arguments that might convince me otherwise.

My doubts are as follows:

-I don't believe, for a second, that this is really about the lack of a stimulus package in the economic update. I think that was jsut a pretext, jsut the excuse they could use to topple the government and take power.

-I don't know what kind of stimulus package teh coaliton would be proposing but I certainly don't want it to involve racking up massive deficits in order to provide multi-billion dollar bailouts for auto companies who ahve operated incompetently and for years made shitty cars that nobody wants to buy.

-I think the motivation is more anger over teh plan to end government subsidies of political parties. It is spiteful and vindictive towards Harper who was spiteful and vindictive towards his opponents.  But I don't think that's a good enough reason to topple the government.

-I'm not a constitutional lawyer and whatever teh actual law may be, this simply seems incredibly undemocratic to me. Love him or hate him, Harper won the last election fair and square. He was about 10 seats shy of a majority and got twice as many seats as the Liberal party. Having a prime minister whose aprty only won 77 seats simply seems undemocratic to me.

-I know that there ahve been some precedents in this area but this seems different somehow. For example when there was a coalition in Ontario between teh Libs and NDPers after the 85 election, the Liberals that formed the government were still the party with the most seats, very close to a majority.

-In 1979 when Trudea defeated teh Clark government that had been elected less than a year earlier, he did not become PM immediately. The GG called an election, Trudea won it and he became prime minister. I am not comfortable with the idea of Dion taking office without having an election first. I also know the Liberals do not want to go into an election because they know they will lose and lose badly. If they are so scared of an election, it's clear they know that they do not have the public support.

-Dion did not jsut lose the last election, he was overwhelmingly rejected with extreme prejudice. He became the least successful liberal leader since confederation, became a national punchline and looked future to a career as an answer to an obscure trivia question. How he could go from overwhelming ass-kicking to PM in 6 weeks with no election strikes me as absurd.

-In the midst of a global economic crisis, I have absolutely no confidence in the leadership abilities of Dion.

-This coalition is handing a veto to a separatist party. I worry that this will mean massively disproportionate funding of Quebec and could lead to the implementation of French-only policies for federal departments and services in teh province.

-Given that teh GG was appointed to this plum position by a previous Liberal government and given that her husband is alleged to have strong separatist feelings, I question how neutral she can be in this situation.

If anyone wants to take a crack at addressing these, I'd love to hear it.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Why couldn't this post go in any of the other dozen-or-so coalition-related threads?

remind remind's picture

how about not!

And frankly how many freaking coalition threads do we need? I know people feel their view point is the be all and end all, but seriously people need to get a grip on theiir desire to put forth their viewpoint and creating a proliferation of coalition threads, it is nonsense.

 ___________________________________________________________

"watching the tide roll away"

George Victor

 

How about a posting by Elizabeth May (in absentia) on the critical nature of the upcoming conference on climate change in Poland this month:

 

"The latest spin from the PMO is that the determination of the coalition government-in-waiting to bring down his failed government will hurt the economy through economic uncertainty. But, clearly, Harper's approach is damaging the economy by the day.

Meanwhile, climate negotiations are underway right now in Poland under the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change. The talks will reach their peak by December 10-13. It is my dearest prayer that the negotiating instructions to the Canadian delegation will come from a coalition government of parties that support climate action. We have time, but we do not have much time.

Join the rallies on Thursday. Blog on the mainline media sites. Write to your MP (of whatever party). Sign the petition. Go to defendourdemocracy.ca. And write the Governor General at info[at]gg[dot]ca.

Nearly one million Canadians voted Green. Greens join the call for the emerging coalition. For the sake of Canadian jobs, economy and planetary survival, support the coalition."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never supported Ms May, but her cause is all-important. The Greens are on board too.

Not sure how a professed man of medicine could ignore this aspect of the case for coalition government. But, then, I can't recall your bringing forth the medical/ethical case on any subject.  Just slumming, SSC?

madmax

George Victor wrote:

I have never supported Ms May, but her cause is all-important. The Greens are on board too.

Not sure how a professed man of medicine could ignore this aspect of the case for coalition government.

As shown in another thread. Elizabeth May has already spoken to Dion about Her Senate Appointment. 

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

I'm not a constitutional lawyer and whatever teh actual law may be, this simply seems incredibly undemocratic to me. Love him or hate him, Harper won the last election fair and square. 

Well, first off, you should take the time to listen to the constitutional precedents and arguments. There is nothing undemocratic about it. On the other hand, Harper has gotten away with behaving incredibly undemocratically for several years now, primarily by misusing the vehicle of non-confidence votes. The opposition has simply (and finally) said enough is enough.

 Secondly, one would have to be awfully young and naive to believe that Harper won the election 'fair and square'. He won the election after an unprecedented pre-election campaign of FUD and slander mounted against his primary opponent. Millions of dollars were spent on painting Dion as incompetent before the public had a chance to form a first impression. That's fair and square?

 No matter. It obviously worked with you: [i]"I have absolutely no confidence in the leadership abilities of Dion."[/i]

George Victor

As shown in another thread. Elizabeth May has already spoken to Dion about Her Senate Appointment. 

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You're sure.  So we can now safely dismiss all appeals for action on climate change?

What an embracing world view! (And what has your neighbour hung out on their line today?)

madmax

George Victor wrote:

As shown in another thread. Elizabeth May has already spoken to Dion about Her Senate Appointment. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

You're sure.  So we can now safely dismiss all appeals for action on climate change?

What an embracing world view! (And what has your neighbour hung out on their line today?)

I apologize in advance. I don't know what you are trying to say. I don't follow you, clarify for me if possible....

In the meantime to the first part of your question 

Am I certain that Dion has spoke with May regarding the Senate appointment?

 

Only as far as she  made that statement to the Globe and Mail today.

 

laughingatu

It isn't very often that I agree with anyone on this site.. however.. SSC shares my sentiments exactly.  The election handed him a stronger minority than the last parliament.

The fact that some may not have liked the way Dion was portrayed doesn't negate the fact that the election was won fair and square.

The electorate handed the libs their worst defeat ever.. and they still don't get it.  God forbid this coup actually work and Dion even think about bringing back his carbon tax grab......  I can see major revolts then!

A dark cloud will hang over this era should the coalition succeed.

 

Wilf Day

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

Love him or hate him, Harper won the last election fair and square.

I blame the media here. In a parliamentary system when a minority house is elected, there is no winner. You don't know what the government will look like until a coalition is announced or the House meets. But of course the media hate this, they want to be 5 minutes ahead of the other network in declaring "THE WINNER." 

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

- when there was a coalition in Ontario between teh Libs and NDPers after the 85 election, the Liberals that formed the government were still the party with the most seats, very close to a majority.

Wrong. The Conservatives had four seats more than the Liberals.

Not that it matters. What matters is having the confidence of the House, which requires a majority of MPs. If you can't assemble a majority accord, governing with a minority requires the support of one party or another from time to time. The Germans cleverly call this "governing with a shifting majority." I wish the Canadian media would use that expression.

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

-This coalition is handing a veto to a separatist party.

All parties in Quebec, whether federal or provincial, agree that separation is a matter to be decided in Quebec, not in Ottawa. The Bloc is not in Ottawa to achieve Quebec independence. They were there in past parliaments to advance Quebec's interests within Canada, and got votes from left, right and centre, as long as they were nationalists. What happened in the last election, though, was quite new. They ran against the "very right-wing" Conservatives, as Duceppe said 15 times a day, and in support of the labour agenda. In the last parliament they voted for two of Harper's budgets. This time he didn't even bother approaching them.

Besides, they got no veto. The agreement gives them nothing specific to Quebec. They only thing they got was a re-opener after 18 months, which Duceppe will use to keep his troops in line when they question what they got for their support.

 

Stockholm

So now that idiot Elizabeth may is musing publicly about being appointed to the Senate and also about her fear that Harper will put tanks in front of Parliament Hill to stop MPs from voting.

can someone tell her to SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!

Star Spangled C...

Lard Tunderin' Jeezus][quote=Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

 Secondly, one would have to be awfully young and naive to believe that Harper won the election 'fair and square'. He won the election after an unprecedented pre-election campaign of FUD and slander mounted against his primary opponent. Millions of dollars were spent on painting Dion as incompetent before the public had a chance to form a first impression. That's fair and square?

 No matter. It obviously worked with you: [i]"I have absolutely no confidence in the leadership abilities of Dion."[/i]

Yes, slander and negative advertising may be unethical but they are certainly part of politics. The fact that harper raised lots of money and spent it attacking his opponent doesn't make his election somehow illegitimate.

I have no love for Harper and would love to see him replaced (preferably not by Dion). But I think the "coalition" should have the balls to face voters on this. They know damn well that the public would never support them.

Star Spangled C...

Wilf Day][quote=Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

Love him or hate him, Harper won the last election fair and square.

I blame the media here. In a parliamentary system when a minority house is elected, there is no winner. You don't know what the government will look like until a coalition is announced or the House meets. But of course the media hate this, they want to be 5 minutes ahead of the other network in declaring "THE WINNER." 

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

- when there was a coalition in Ontario between teh Libs and NDPers after the 85 election, the Liberals that formed the government were still the party with the most seats, very close to a majority.

Wrong. The Conservatives had four seats more than the Liberals.

Not that it matters. What matters is having the confidence of the House, which requires a majority of MPs. If you can't assemble a majority accord, governing with a minority requires the support of one party or another from time to time. The Germans cleverly call this "governing with a shifting majority." I wish the Canadian media would use that expression.

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

-

that was a very intelligent response,. i'm a little less concerned. still not entirely convinced.

josh

Intentionally or not, the opening post smacks of concern trolling.

kropotkin1951

The opening post "inadvertently" regurgetated the Conservtives talking points.  Harper went to the polls ahead of his fixed election date legislation that he passed in the last parliamnet. His stated reason was to get a majoprity of the seats in the House so he could rule without needing the confidence of anyone but his own MP's. The people of Canada said no way you need a chaperone because we don't trust you fully.  The economic update was exactly the type of nasty partisan politics that caused the Conservatves to NOT win a majority. The people of Canada spoke they said work together they also said clearly BULLY BOYS DON'T GET TO RULE.

__________________________________________________________________________________________ A Sight to See: Harpo Hoisted on His Own Petard

madmax

It may be trolliing. But there needs to be discussion on the coalition. Alot of people are making assumptions about the coalition. One of the points in the coalition presentation was that there were to be no surprises....

I have a hard time, ...a difficult time, accepting Dion as a person of competence.  Dion is going to appoint Elizabeth May to the Senate during his brief term as Prime Minister.

Don't you think there is something fundamentally wrong with this picture?

All the Press announcements showing Paul Martin, Romanov, Manley, and McKenna are to deal with the economic fallout, and to create a sense of stability from former statesmen with a strong economic background.

Where does Dion fit into this? Dion is......the weakest link.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus wrote:

 Secondly, one would have to be awfully young and naive to believe that Harper won the election 'fair and square'. He won the election after an unprecedented pre-election campaign of FUD and slander mounted against his primary opponent. Millions of dollars were spent on painting Dion as incompetent before the public had a chance to form a first impression. That's fair and square?

 No matter. It obviously worked with you: [i]"I have absolutely no confidence in the leadership abilities of Dion."[/i]

Yes, slander and negative advertising may be unethical but they are certainly part of politics. The fact that harper raised lots of money and spent it attacking his opponent doesn't make his election somehow illegitimate.

I have no love for Harper and would love to see him replaced (preferably not by Dion). But I think the "coalition" should have the balls to face voters on this. They know damn well that the public would never support them.

Strange that you chose to completely ignore my first point, only to evade my second. I did not say that Harper's attack ads and outrageous spending were illegal, only that they were unprecedented. Such tactics have not played such a role in Canadian politics previously - therefore the playing field was tilted. So NOT fair and square, but not outlawed (though perhaps it should be).

As to your claim that "the public would never support" the coalition parties - well, the public did support them, in greater numbers than their seats in Parliament. If this country had a modern electoral system with proportional representation such coalitions would be the norm, then as today, elected by Canadians. 

Star Spangled C...

kropotkin1951 wrote:

 The economic update was exactly the type of nasty partisan politics that caused the Conservatves to NOT win a majority. The people of Canada spoke they said work together they also said clearly BULLY BOYS DON'T GET TO RULE.

When did "the people of Canada" say this? This was a deal among the parties, it had nothing to do with the people of Canada.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

madmax wrote:

It may be trolliing. But there needs to be discussion on the coalition. Alot of people are making assumptions about the coalition. One of the points in the coalition presentation was that there were to be no surprises....

I have a hard time, ...a difficult time, accepting Dion as a person of competence.  Dion is going to appoint Elizabeth May to the Senate during his brief term as Prime Minister.

Don't you think there is something fundamentally wrong with this picture?

All the Press announcements showing Paul Martin, Romanov, Manley, and McKenna are to deal with the economic fallout, and to create a sense of stability from former statesmen with a strong economic background.

Where does Dion fit into this? Dion is......the weakest link.

You don't like Dion. We got it - months ago. 

Next? 

BTW, it is trolling. Without a doubt. But thanks for being honest about it.

Caissa

Come on SSC. The people of Canada elected 308 people who get to choose the Government. That's what they are doing.

martin dufresne

"Dion is......the weakest link"

And the one that will be replaced within weeks, months at the most. Quit giving us the (Conservative) party jive.

George Victor

The electorate handed the libs their worst defeat ever.. and they still don't get it.  God forbid this coup actually work and Dion even think about bringing back his carbon tax grab......  I can see major revolts then!

A dark cloud will hang over this era should the coalition succeed.

end quote)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

It is thinking at this subterranean level that must be avoided, max. The sloganeer climate change basher.  The reason why E.May (and many more of us) wonder if we'll be in time with that convention in Poland this month. 

Wish I could find that Globe piece on May.  I'd always hoped she would complete her theological studies and find a nice church in the burbs.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

And the man of medicine continues to avoid the challenge - like the plagueSmile

 

tostig

How about the events of the past two years that this ideological government had enacted what alot of Ontarians had experienced under the Common Sense Revolution?

How about the bullying tactics that has gone on long enough?

How about the fact that Harper had gained seats and action to stop them has become vital before they get majority?

How about our expectations on Harper's performance in Peru?  Alot of analysts (including Harper's own professor) was expecting temporary deficit spending. 

Perhaps all of the past events with a few more ideological cuts were the last straws that drove all the opposition parties together to say "enough is enough".

Star Spangled C...

Caissa wrote:
Come on SSC. The people of Canada elected 308 people who get to choose the Government. That's what they are doing.

I get that. But it's either naive or disingenuous to suggest that Stephane Dion as prime minister somehow reflects the 'will of Canadians". This guy lead his party to the worst defeat in the history of confederation. They lost a pile of seats. Polls had him behind Duceppe and 'none of the above" as their choice for PM. He didn't come close and jsut miss out. He was decimated and humiliated. Dion as PM is definitely NOT what people voted for or ever imagined happening.

George Victor

But some of them have the humanity to imagine the effects on humanity if the Harpers of this world prevail. How's your humanity quotient, SSC?

Star Spangled C...

George Victor wrote:
But some of them have the humanity to imagine the effects on humanity if the Harpers of this world prevail. How's your humanity quotient, SSC?

See, I don't think it's about whether Harper is good or bad. There have been lots of politicians throughout history who I've opposed strongly. I recognize, however, that harper won. I recognize too that in a minority, the government can fall on a confidence motion. If that's teh case, I prefer to see an election than to have Dion become PM after being overwhelmingly rejected. If the Libs and NDP are so confident that tehy have the support of Canadians and that Canadians WANT a Lib-NDP coalition supported by the BQ, why don't they ask the GG to call an election? They will enver do that cause they know they will lose. That seems to suggest that they KNOW this would not be met with the support of Canadians.

Caissa

SSC, people don't vote for a PM; they elect MPs. The coalition has the support of more than 155 MPs. There is no "BUT"..

writer writer's picture

Quote:
Green Party Leader Elizabeth May is endorsing the proposed coalition
government and says she has spoken with Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion
about the possibility of her being appointed to the Senate.

[url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081202.wPOLcoalitio... and Mail[/url]

kropotkin1951

Harper has done everything he can to try and turn our parliamentary democracy into a republic like south of the border. It is not a republic and the majority of MP's in the House get to rule the nation not the party with a minority of seats. The people spoke clearly because Harper asked for a majority and they said no work go back to the House and work with the other parties. Since he chose to go it alone he doesn't have the confidence of the Majority of the MP's that is our system it is not some cutesy bastardization of the American system.  Nobody outside of Calgary voted for Harper that is our system. I voted for Bill Siksay and he was very clear that he opposed the Conservative agenda. The people in this riding sent him to Ottawa based on that stance. They did not elect a Conservative despite coming very close. The people of Burnabgy Douglas chose their representtive and he gets to decide how to vote on a confidence motion.  This is not America YET

___________________________________________________________________________________________ A Sight to See: Harpo Hoisted on His Own Petard

George Victor

SSC, it goes beyond your cold legal reasoning - and may I say you fit into your adopted country like a hand in glove.

It's what they intend to do about the human situation, trying to surmount the huge economic obstacles to our getting off the treadmill of production and consumption that will deny our grandkids any kind of future, that wins the ethical day for me.

Your failure to embrace that difference, or to accept  the urgency of both the economic and environmental crises,  makes you  difficult to stomach - or believe.

 

Star Spangled C...

George Victor wrote:

SSC, it goes beyond your cold legal reasoning - and may I say you fit into your adopted country like a hand in glove.

It's what they intend to do about the human situation, trying to surmount the huge economic obstacles to our getting off the treadmill of production and consumption that will deny our grandkids any kind of future, that wins the ethical day for me.

Your failure to embrace that difference, or to accept  the urgency of both the economic and environmental crises,  makes you  difficult to stomach - or believe.

 

I haven't heard a single detail of what this great economic stimulus from the coalition will be so I'll ahve to withold judgment. But, really, honestly, do you think that this attempt to defeat harper is really about the economic statement as opposed to jsut trying to take power? Give me a break.

madmax

Lard Tunderin' Jeezus wrote:

madmax wrote:

It may be trolliing. But there needs to be discussion on the coalition. Alot of people are making assumptions about the coalition. One of the points in the coalition presentation was that there were to be no surprises....

I have a hard time, ...a difficult time, accepting Dion as a person of competence.  Dion is going to appoint Elizabeth May to the Senate during his brief term as Prime Minister.

Don't you think there is something fundamentally wrong with this picture?

All the Press announcements showing Paul Martin, Romanov, Manley, and McKenna are to deal with the economic fallout, and to create a sense of stability from former statesmen with a strong economic background.

Where does Dion fit into this? Dion is......the weakest link.

You don't like Dion. We got it - months ago. 

Next? 

BTW, it is trolling. Without a doubt. But thanks for being honest about it.

I did not start the post or the thread title. I indicated that the title and post may be trolling. Ironically, I didn't read the SSBanner post because, it most likely was partisan BS not worth my time. But I was responding to G Victor, regarding he does not like Elizabeth May, but that she supports the Coalition. 

Regardless of the fact that I dislike Dion, I don't believe I ever discussed it on babble until 3 or 4 days ago. (I did size him up prior to the LPC leadership race and he met all my expectations). There are many politicians and leaders I am not fond of, however, only one of those leaders is heading a coalition that intends to remove the Harper Government. The coalition has the potentional to do great things. It also has the potential to destroy one,two or three parties. (The damage done to the CPC is of harpers own making.)

But the Coalition, and the coalition supporters need to recognise the fact that there are alot of people not lock step with the change that is going to happen. It iis difficult to understand. So while the coalition supporters cheer, they are cheering to the choir. The coalition has done a remarkable job of creating a degree of solidarity if I should be so bold.

The LPC leadership candidates all back Dion. The NDP and BQ all back Dion.

But the problem lies, and is the elephant in the room. It is still Dion, and many of the people who voted for the NDP or BQ as opposed to the CPC, voted because they couldn't stomach Dion.

If Dion is supposed to be the "caretaker" Prime Minister until the LPC choose a new leader, why is he making a seat warm for Elizabeth May? This reminds me of Fortier being sent to the Senate for being a loyal party bagman. The problem is, I have a yearning to see the coalition work verses another election. But to see changes to the Senate like this  helps the CPC with their Coup Campaign. The coup campaign is a campaign to undermine the coaltion.

While Many people might think that there was no other choice then Dion, and much like the Mistake made by Harper, you can't put the genie back in the bottle, the coalition is going to wear this guy. And he isn't making any better impression today, then he did yesterday, or in September or the months preceeding September. Its just a fact. But, this isn't about me and what I think. I am trying, to make those people who follow babble, and I know there are some in both the LPC and NDP, recognise how poorly Dion is received by the public. It is not just  CPC attack, he is a weapon that is  easy for the CPC to weild against the coalition,  but Dion can't manage himself in a public setting, and is unable to win the support of the public. He doesn't have it now. He has the support of party members and activists who see a greater good, but the population in general far exceeds that group. All the spin in the world can't change who Dion is and how he is viewed by the public.  He is a hard sell, and yes, people think I am picking on him, but it is the truth and coalition supporters who do not recognise this do so at their own peril, and the possible resurection of Stephen Harper. 

So, how can the coalition, which has unified behind Dion, make him semi palatable to the public which is not ready for him. How does the coaltion deal with a public who sees, someone they didn't want about to sit in the Prime Ministers Chair and  line up his Senate appointments?  

That said, I think the coalition has done a remarkable job setting the agenda and dealing with various fallout and naysayers. 

 

 

kropotkin1951

I am sure that there was no agreement to have anyone other than Liberals appointed to the cabinet. The document set out the number of cabinet ministers and how many from each of the two parties.  I wonder which front bencher of the Liberals would be willing to give up a cabinet post to let May get in the cabinet as a newly minted Liberal. 

She apparently does dream in technicolor and with little regard for anyone else but her self. The idea that there are no MP's with environmental credentials at least equal to May's is both absurd and insulting to the MP's actually elected by Canadians.   ___________________________________________________________________________________________ A Sight to See: Harpo Hoisted on His Own Petard

pogge

writer wrote:

Quote:
Green Party Leader Elizabeth May is endorsing the proposed coalition
government and says she has spoken with Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion
about the possibility of her being appointed to the Senate.

[url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081202.wPOLcoalitio... and Mail[/url]

I read the [url=http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20081202/dion_may_08... version[/u][/url] of that story earlier and it sounded like the conversation might have gone something like this:

May: You know what you could do that would be really neat? You could appoint me to the Senate and then bring me into cabinet just like Harper did with Michael Fortier.

Dion: I'll take that under advisement. How about this weather, eh?

 

Willowdale Wizard

The situation in Ontario in 1985 was not a coalition. If only it had been. It was an "accord" where the Liberals promised to enact certain legislation in exchange for NDP support. If it had been a coalition government, the NDP would have been better prepared (ministerial experience wise) for 1990.

In 1979, there had been 9 months since an election. Here, it's only been a few weeks. The odds are that the GG won't opt for another election so soon.

I'm not sure what you mean about the GG and "how neutral she can be." It would create even more of a constitutional muddle if the GG was replaced in the midst of all this. So, for good or ill, it's her decision. Maybe she'll get on the blower and chat with Liz 2 about it. Of course, Liz hasn't had to deal with a minority government situation herself for 30 years.

A minority coalition government, supported by a supply-and-confidence arrangement from a separatist party. It's a political scientist's wet dream. Between this and the Obama/McCain election, what a year!

madmax

Star Spangled Canadian][quote=George Victor wrote:

I haven't heard a single detail of what this great economic stimulus from the coalition will be so I'll ahve to withold judgment. But, really, honestly, do you think that this attempt to defeat harper is really about the economic statement as opposed to jsut trying to take power? Give me a break.

  Hmmm, Stornaway. Looks good. Harper should enjoy it.

Because anyone making the above comment and has the desire to post in these forums, is probably full of it. Stopping Harper has become the imperative. He choose a game of brinksmanship while ignoring the economy. So is this about power? Absolutely... getting someone in power who will work with enough of the house to set aside partisan games and deal with the economy. 

 

 

Star Spangled C...

Yeah, fine, harper sucks, we all get that. But how will this coalition "deal with the economy"? They've offered nothing of substance. Not one detail. Did harper paly partisan games? Absolutely. Is this coalition an even bigger partisan game? Hell yeah.

kropotkin1951

I think that it is a reaction to bullying. The Conservatives chose to spit in the face of all three parties and tried to rub their nose in urine. This behaviour is disgusting when done by a majority government in a parliamentary system but when done by a minority government is cause for the other parties to say we have no confidence in your ability to rule. Confidence of the House is the bedrock of our system. Harper thought he was an American politician in his actions and he miscalculated his own vulnerability. No MP with any self respect could vote for a government that had deliberately poked them in the eye. It is to late now to undo Harper's hubristic  economic update. He took the opportunity to be nasty and partisan and he miscalculated that his victims would not stand up to his bullying.

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:
But, really, honestly, do you think that this attempt to defeat harper is really about the economic statement as opposed to jsut trying to take power? Give me a break.
___________________________________________________________________________________________ A Sight to See: Harpo Hoisted on His Own Petard

Bookish Agrarian

laughingatu wrote:

It isn't very often that I agree with anyone on this site.. however.. SSC shares my sentiments exactly.  The election handed him a stronger minority than the last parliament.

The fact that some may not have liked the way Dion was portrayed doesn't negate the fact that the election was won fair and square.

The electorate handed the libs their worst defeat ever.. and they still don't get it.  God forbid this coup actually work and Dion even think about bringing back his carbon tax grab......  I can see major revolts then!

A dark cloud will hang over this era should the coalition succeed.

 

 

I have a new rule.  Anyone who describes the constitutional actions of parliamentarians as a coup immediately wins my disdain and goes on my ignore forever list.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

The seat for eMay thing is media conjecture, which she, being her silly self, was happy to play along with. However, even she downplayed it later in the day (on Newsworld), mentioning others perfectly capable of doing justice to the environment portfolio.

BTW, want to be convinced that this coalition is necessary? Turn on Question Period on Newsworld, and watch the overt bigotry spewing from the Conservative side of the House. If I were a Quebeçois, I would be incredibly offended by the display. WTF is wrong with the Harperites? Have they completely lost it? 

Star Spangled C...

I think you hit the nail on the head kropotkin. Every single party in the hosue right now is behaving out of self interest and out to screw their opponents. That's all. it ahs nothing to do with the economy, nothing to do with what's good for the country.  A plague on all their houses.

Tasso

The Colaition Government would be democratic because:

1) The opposition parties got 62% of the vote.

2) The opposition parties got 155 seats

3) Harper only got 21% of the population (not vote)

4) Harper asked for a majority during the elections and the people clearly stated that they wanted the parties to work together  in a minority gvm situation, which Harper didn't by proposing legislation that he knew the other parties couldn't agree to

5)  When Harper proposed abolishing the 1.95$ law, he was being undemocratic.  The law was put in place, don't forget, so that all parties play on an equal playing field and that they break their links to unions and to corporate influences.  That is the reason why the parties opposed that specific piece of legislation ... and because there was no economic stimulus package.  They were defending democracy in the face of Harper's undemocratic attack. Those are the clear and real reasons despite any spin doctoring by conservatives.

 

I hope this helps you alleviate some of your concerns SSC.  

 

 

wage zombie

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:
I think you hit the nail on the head kropotkin. Every single party in the hosue right now is behaving out of self interest and out to screw their opponents. That's all. it ahs nothing to do with the economy, nothing to do with what's good for the country.  A plague on all their houses.

 The NDP campaigned opposing Harper and said that they'd be open to working in coalition to the Liberals.  So the NDP are not doing anything shocking here.

It's also pretty silly i think to say that every party is trying to screw their opponents--when what we're talking about is a coalition. 

madmax wrote:
While Many people might think that there was no other choice then Dion, and much like the Mistake made by Harper, you can't put the genie back in the bottle, the coalition is going to wear this guy.
 

If the coalition can make it to six months beyond the next Liberal leader then people will be happy to forget all about Dion.

Star Spangled C...

I apprecaite the response, Tasso. I agree Harper was being reckless and stupid and deserved to get smacked down.

But if you look at your own statements, they also work against he idea of the coalition.

Yes, Harper only got 21% of all Canadians...which is significantly more than Dion got.

yes, the Canadian people clearly rejected a Harper majority... They also clearly, beyond any doubt, rejected the idea of PM Dion.

Yes, the opposition parties combined for over 60% of the vote... But if they had campaigned on a coalition between Libs and NDPers propped up by the BQ, do you think they still would ahve? I don't.

each and every party involved in this current parliament has poisoned it beyond redemption. It's short-lived but it's already time to put it out of its misery. Call a damn election. Let the people decide again.

Star Spangled C...

wage zombie wrote:

[ The NDP campaigned opposing Harper and said that they'd be open to working in coalition to the Liberals.  So the NDP are not doing anything shocking here.

I don't recall them ever saying they'd pursue a formal coalition but let's say they did. the Liberals certainly rejected the notion of a coalition with the NDP or the Bloc.

jas

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

Call a damn election. Let the people decide again.

Oh yeah, that'll be real popular.

I suggest this thread is a waste of time. Nobody needs
to convince Star Spangled Canadian of anything. He can educate himself
and make up his own mind and petition his MP if he doesn't like the way
things are going.

Cueball Cueball's picture

This country was founded by a coalition. I think that should end any of these legalistic arguements.

wage zombie

Wasn't the big Conservative bombshell that the NDP had been working behind the scenes to make a coalition possible even before Harper's power play?  Clearly the NDP opposes Harper's agenda--so why wouldn't they do what they can to block that agenda?  This includes using what seats they have to get the best legislation passed that they can. 

Quote:
Call a damn election. Let the people decide again.

 

So let's suppose for a minute that there was another election called, over the holidays, and the result was more or less the same--the Conservatives a few seats shy of a majority.  What would you see happening then? 

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Now here's some ugly and unsupportable bullshit:

[i]"each and every party involved in this current parliament has poisoned it beyond redemption."[/i]

Three of the four parties have good working relations between them. There is no reason to abandon this Parliament.

BTW, I take it you've given up on pretending you're not a Conservative partisan, eh, SSC?

 

Star Spangled C...

Lard Tunderin' Jeezus wrote:

Now here's some ugly and unsupportable bullshit:

[i]"each and every party involved in this current parliament has poisoned it beyond redemption."[/i]

Three of the four parties have good working relations between them. There is no reason to abandon this Parliament.

BTW, I take it you've given up on pretending you're not a Conservative partisan, eh, SSC?

 I'm certainly FAR from being a conservative partisan. Never voted for them in my life. Voted Green the last election.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

So where's the poison?

And btw, why do you never respond to the primary point of my post?

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