Has the GG not set the stage for a Banana Republic. By shutting down parliment, any government who doesn't wish to face the opposition can now choose to ProRogue, and continue with business as usual without the opposition. Is this the first step towards a Banana Republic?
fleabitten:
Anyone else find is hilarious that the opposition didn't grow a backbone until the Imperial Leader threatened to take away their public money.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The "public money" began to be meted out (as in other democracies) when Chretien engineered an end to "private money" from corporations and unions. No doubt many of his followers now rue that day.
But if we are to defeat the enemy of democracy , we are going to need more intelligent observations than that, oh one short hair.(An old Chinese observation on deficiencies ...including intellectual).
Message
I
don't know what the plans will be for round 2--
However, I think it would be dramatic if the coalition
got together outside the house - perhaps outside on the lawn of the H of C and
1)
discussed what they would do- perhaps even had a public session towards putting
a plan together- even with debate
2)
heard from ordinary Canadians- invited some to speak- even including some who
oppose the coalition - and then answer them
3)
showed they are still together in a manner that can be
photographed
I
think the coalition will need to
1)
emphasize what has just happened and what that means -- meeting outside
parliament does that
2)
show that they are still ready to govern
3)
show that their plans for governing are advancing
4)
show exactly what the government has done and not done that has lead us to this-
more than just the economic stimulus as the Cons will likely address that at
least in name if not function by January.
All
this would be one step more than Libby's proposal that the NDP show its
collective non-confidence
I can't believe she did that. She doesn't even like him, and she broke
precedent for him. Which in turn will give an easy out for any future
weakling governments. Now she's got coalitionists against her.
What would have compelled her to make that decision??
Mr divisive strikes again.....I'm kinda shocked also that she would give in to a coward that is bent on dividing the country. He has said when he gets finished with Canada we won't recognize it. Just like a taliban running from cave to cave the conservative like their right wing buddies aren't no differant. She promotes that?and worse makes it easier for future cowards to run and hide.
Ther have been hints of what these conservatives are all about...like wiretapping and eavesdropping. I wouldn't put it past the neocon coward to bug the GG's mansion and collect dirt to use at their discretion it's what they are all about. Harper probably told her...you see my power and how I control the CTV media and the people and how when I pull a short hair they JUMP..just imagine when I release these tapes.
The GG probably caved in...I wouldn't be surprised and again there has got to be a point where Canadians start thinking and saying to themselves"Are we really as dumb as sticks?"
Spying is one of the dirtiest tricks in the book..so dirty the penalty used to be death by firing squad..that conservatives have proved or are in the process of being indicted for that kind of behaviour makes it likely that they would stoop to anything to hold power-ANYTHING- being a slithering coward is in the right wing dna..talibans,republicans,conservatives all the same.
If they can spy on caucus offices and members they can spy on the gg office. I urge the coalition to invest in anti surveillance equipment...anyways that's what I figure went down.
The coalition needs a spokesperson capacity. The parties also need a ground game, given as this issue will be fought out during the media lull of the winter holidays. The Liberals need to figure out if they are serious about this. There are enough wafflers in that caucus to give Harper just the opportunity he needs to deliver the party's coup de grace. I could see the Liberals making use of the break to sue for peace.
The coalition needs a spokesperson capacity.
Too many tone deaf people in this forum defended the undefendable. Dion as Leader of the Coalition. Had he any leadership capacity, Harper would have been skewered. Apparently a very well prepared and ready Jack Layton was not allowed Prime Time Air, because all the time was allocated to Dion who failed to appear, and later, failed to appear clearly and most unprofessionally.
People didn't shout out that Dion would be a problem. That he couldn't communicate. That if he was incapable of running a fully funded campaign, it would be reasonable to assume he would be worse now. Apparently much worse based on the quality of the video, the script and the waste of national air time.
The Liberals choose Dion in a caucus meeting. What on earth where they thinking. The basics would be to make it 5 months. Did they forget there is a watching public who already heavily dislike Dion. People on these forums are pretty silent, about DIons failure last night.
Harper scored an E and Dion got an F/incomplete on their National assignments.
The coalition better get their shit together or call it a day.
A lot of people on here, including myself, said Dion was a mistake and that he should be replaced, on an interim basis, by someone like Goodale. But the Liberals in Parliament, most of whom back Iggy, didn't want to jeopardize Iggy's ascenscion in May. So they kept Dion on.
Too bad nobody listened to you. Could be looking at an entirely different mindset within the LPC, even with Harper getting the GGs ear.
Actually I was kind of impressed by Dion's speeches over the last few days. The Harpers need yelling at a lot more often until they are made even more powerless than they pretend to be now.
The Economist wrote a short, and very balanced, article on this:
http://www.economist.com/world/unitedstates/displayStory.cfm?story_id=12...
I think I mentioned this before but on radio Dion actually didn't come off too bad. I am not saying anything positive about that fiasco, just saying that if you were just listening it was actually okay. Obviously though the medium is the message.
I can't believe she did that. She doesn't even like him, and she broke precedent for him. Which in turn will give an easy out for any future weakling governments. Now she's got coalitionists against her. What would have compelled her to make that decision??
I think it probably comes down to the presumption that the Prime Minister has the confidence of the House until it's actually proven otherwise in a vote.
"I think it probably comes down to the presumption that the Prime
Minister has the confidence of the House until it's actually proven
otherwise in a vote
Yep, Dion saying he would accept the Throne Speech gave Harper the room.
___________________________________________________________
"watching the tide roll away"
...I think it probably comes down to the presumption that the Prime Minister has the confidence of the House until it's actually proven otherwise in a vote.
[i]proven otherwise[/i] ?? What more does she need if she had to cut short her trip because the opposition was planning a non-confidence vote? Don't tell me she hadn't received the Coalition Agreement sent to her because it's still in the mail.
The breaking news is the coaltion is breaking up.
CP: Liberal resolve to defeat Harper starting to crumble
Within an hour of Prime Minister Stephen Harper winning a two-month reprieve, some Grit MPs were pulling back from the idea of trying to replace the Tory regime with a Liberal-NDP coalition propped up by the Bloc Quebecois.
Toronto MP Jim Karygiannis says the coalition idea is finished and is calling on Stephane Dion to resign the Liberal leadership sooner rather than later.
Dion is scheduled to step aside as Liberal leader once a successor is chosen May 2 but many
Liberals remain uneasy about the prospect of ensconcing him in the prime minister's office even temporarily.Newfoundland MP Scott Simms says all MPs need to give their heads' a collective shake and get
back in touch with what their constituents want them to do: fix the faltering economy.Victoria MP Keith Martin says the two-month suspension of Parliament gives opposition parties a chance to open lines of communication with the government and work out a way to avert another crisis in the new year.
Prime Minister Stephen Harper's Conservatives received 44 per cent of respondents' support, up from the 37.6 per cent support the Tories received in the federal election that returned them to Ottawa with another minority government just seven weeks ago.
The results suggest support for Stéphane Dion's Liberals was down two percentage points from the election, with 24 per cent of respondents' support, while the New Democrats were down almost four percentage points at 14.5 per cent support.
Meanwhile, the Bloc Québécois was at nine per cent and the Greens at eight per cent.
Thats WAY overstated that the coalition is breaking up.
In the first place we're only talking about the Liberals- whether the Liberals crumble.
As I've said before, out in the open cracks from the Liberals were always inevitable. They are too used to airing their dirty laundry.
But the Liberals aren't crumbling until we see Dion, Rae or Iggy waffling. Saying you will listen to Harper is pro forma, not waffling.
And it has no effect beyond political junkies someone like Karagyanis spouting off.
While the coalition isn't breaking up, just staying together is not remotely sufficient. They need to be going on the offensive. And it remains to be seen that this new beast can pull that off.
Ok, the other coalition threads are closed so I am picking this one to continue here. In the other, some voiced real concerns because of the recent polling and said it's time to get out why the gettings good. Well I'm stickin with the coalition notion. So since some think that we should be directed by polling, how about this at Toronto Sun:
Canadians who vote Liberal strongly support the idea of a coalition between the Grits and the New Democratic Party, even when the separatist Bloc Quebecois is thrown into the mix.
An exclusive poll for Sun Media by Leger Marketing shows 78% of identified Liberal voters would have preferred a three-way coalition rather than an election had the Tories been defeated in the House of Commons. Only 13% favoured an election.
....
POWER HUNGRY
The numbers supporting the coalition show Liberal backers are more interested in regaining power than in worrying about who they must ally with to achieve that goal.
....
Fifty-seven percent of NDP supporters also liked the coalition, but one-quarter did not. That suggests, said Scholz, that many would rather have held another election than simply transfer power from one group to another.
Bloc Quebecois backers were happiest with the idea of a coalition: 79% favoured it over an election, whereas only 8% disagreed.
Anyway, it looks like a majority of our coalition supporters and voters like the coalition idea - who would have thought that.
The assumption about an election re: ndp, well that is an assumption and cannot be mistaken for "fact" unless asked directly. They might have other reasons, and I am sure we could come for with a list.
Also, take note that Rae has now taken on the lead for the coalition on the liberal end. We all know that he is a 150% better than Dion. And yes, there is caution here but at least I know that Rae is a fighter, is a good messanger in both languages, and as long as he is willing to share better (and remember that NDP concept) well this coalition might have a fighting chance.
I will be at the rally tomorrow in Toronto as an NDPer and part of the 62% majority
.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!
Re Rae:
"Mr. Dion appeared to be open to changing his mind about defeating Mr. Harper's government, saying that a “monumental change” on Mr. Harper's part would alter that.
That phrase angered some Liberals, who began shouting at Mr. Dion, accusing him of not going far enough, according to a caucus insider. That is when Mr. Rae approached the microphone, telling Mr. Dion that even “monumental change” was not acceptable.
Mr. Dion appeared shocked, the insider said."
The Liberal Party is splitting into two sections. The Rae-Chretien-Trudeau section is fully behind the coalition, and the Ignatieff-Martin-Turner section will be against it.
Jim Karygiannis was on TV last night saying that the reason his concerns were not being heard was because his french wasn't good enough. An asshat like that would be much better in the Conservatives anyway - let him go. And where was it Kieth Martin came from again?
Thats WAY overstated that the coalition is breaking up.
In the first place we're only talking about the Liberals- whether the Liberals crumble.
As I've said before, out in the open cracks from the Liberals were always inevitable. They are too used to airing their dirty laundry.
But the Liberals aren't crumbling until we see Dion, Rae or Iggy waffling. Saying you will listen to Harper is pro forma, not waffling.
And it has no effect beyond political junkies someone like Karagyanis spouting off.
While the coalition isn't breaking up, just staying together is not remotely sufficient. They need to be going on the offensive. And it remains to be seen that this new beast can pull that off.
All that needs to happen for the coalition to collapse is for the Liberals to crumble - if 7 or 8 Liberals vote with the government they'll win the no confidence vote - same thing if 15 Liberals don't show up for the vote.
Iggy hasn't publicly come out against the coalition but he has been relatively quiet in his public support and there are numerous reports that he is cool to the idea. Even if he can't afford to publicly nix it all he needs to do is give his supporters the ok not to vote for it. Lastly, a number of Liberal MPs are talking compromise. If the polls continue to show public hostility to the coalition there's no way the Liberals won't back down. Much of that hostility, I belive, is tied up with Dion's ineptitute so this may change if the Libs dump Dion now.
Thats WAY overstated that the coalition is breaking up.
In the first place we're only talking about the Liberals- whether the Liberals crumble.
As I've said before, out in the open cracks from the Liberals were always inevitable. They are too used to airing their dirty laundry.
But the Liberals aren't crumbling until we see Dion, Rae or Iggy waffling. Saying you will listen to Harper is pro forma, not waffling.
And it has no effect beyond political junkies someone like Karagyanis spouting off.
While the coalition isn't breaking up, just staying together is not remotely sufficient. They need to be going on the offensive. And it remains to be seen that this new beast can pull that off.
All that needs to happen for the coalition to collapse is for the Liberals to crumble - if 7 or 8 Liberals vote with the government they'll win the no confidence vote - same thing if 15 Liberals don't show up for the vote.
Iggy hasn't publicly come out for the coalition but he has been relatively quiet in his public support and there are numerous reports that he is cool to the idea. Even if he can't afford to publicly nix it all he needs to do is give his supporters the ok not to vote for it. Lastly, a number of Liberal MPs are talking compromise. If the polls continue to show public hostility to the coalition there's no way the Liberals won't back down. Much of that hostility, I belive, is tied up with Dion's ineptitute so this may change if the Libs dump Dion now.
Which won't happen because both Iggy and Rae seemed determined to prop up the feckless Dion. It's almost like Weekend at Bernie's, and probably will be until Dion finally leaves.
You're probably right at this point that there are enough Iggy Liberals who will cave at the end of January.
I think I mentioned this before but on radio Dion actually didn't come off too bad. I am not saying anything positive about that fiasco, just saying that if you were just listening it was actually okay. Obviously though the medium is the message.
Nixon sounded better then Kennedy on radio. Dion asked for the Televised Network Prime Time and failed to deliver. 
The results suggest support for Stéphane Dion's Liberals was down two percentage points from the election, with 24 per cent of respondents' support, while the New Democrats were down almost four percentage points at 14.5 per cent support.
What do you expect. Dion brought the LPC to their lowest electorate defeat in the history of Canada. The LPC decided they needed to feel the pain again, and see how much farther that incompetent doofus bring them down. The NDP should have pulled out at the thought of Dion leading the coalition. The NDP are paying the price, for joining up with a loser.
Re Rae:
"Mr. Dion appeared to be open to changing his mind about defeating Mr. Harper's government, saying that a “monumental change” on Mr. Harper's part would alter that.
That phrase angered some Liberals, who began shouting at Mr. Dion, accusing him of not going far enough, according to a caucus insider. That is when Mr. Rae approached the microphone, telling Mr. Dion that even “monumental change” was not acceptable.
Mr. Dion appeared shocked, the insider said."
The guy is a f432wit.. How on earth did he ever become the leader of a party. He is Frankensteins Monster.
interesting, double post deleted with two different words... never seen that before.
Has any information come out about WHO was responsible for producing the tape of Dion's address, or who was responsible for getting it to the media? Under the circumstances, it it possible he was deliberately sabotaged? Or are the Liberals really that incompetent/disorganized that they can't produce and deliver a video of at least high-school film class calibre?
The grainy video was taped by one of Dion's closest aides, Mick
Gzowski, son of late CBC icon Peter Gzowski, The Canadian Press
reports. Insiders say it was recorded with a digital camera and an
auto-focus button on the camera was broken, stuck in the locked
position. As a result, the focus was on a bookcase behind Dion, rather
than on the Liberal leader himself, leaving his face slightly fuzzy.
I guess the problem is Gzowski's more of a radio guy:)
"The grainy video was taped by one of Dion's closest aides, Mick Gzowski, son of late CBC icon Peter Gzowski, The Canadian Press reports. Insiders say it was recorded with a digital camera and an auto-focus button on the camera was broken, stuck in the locked position. As a result, the focus was on a bookcase behind Dion, rather than on the Liberal leader himself, leaving his face slightly fuzzy."
http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/548865
I'm guessing, then, that the delay in delivering the tape to the networks may have been because the Liberals discovered the cock-up, and were trying to figure out what to do. I realize they were under time-pressure, but really that sort of mistake is embarassing and inexcusable. Dion blew his best chance to frame the debate before the GG's decision, obscuring his quite important, powerful, well-developed message with a ridiculously bad delivery.
I suppose this could be overcome if Dion was in a stronger leadership position. But he's not, and now it all comes crumbling down around him. What a shame.
... since some think that we should be directed by polling, how about this at Toronto Sun:Canadians who vote Liberal strongly support the idea of a coalition between the Grits and the New Democratic Party, even when the separatist Bloc Quebecois is thrown into the mix.
An exclusive poll for Sun Media by Leger Marketing shows 78% of identified Liberal voters would have preferred a three-way coalition rather than an election had the Tories been defeated in the House of Commons. Only 13% favoured an election.
....Fifty-seven percent of NDP supporters also liked the coalition, but one-quarter did not. That suggests, said Scholz, that many would rather have held another election than simply transfer power from one group to another.
Bloc Quebecois backers were happiest with the idea of a coalition: 79% favoured it over an election, whereas only 8% disagreed.
Anyway, it looks like a majority of our coalition supporters and voters like the coalition idea - who would have thought that.
I will be at the rally tomorrow in Toronto as an NDPer and part of the 62% majority.
Exactly, my point in another thread, I do not believe the polls indicating otherwise. I think their selection process wad deliberately skewed. I know I wasn't contacted and I usually am, as one who is consistently willing to participate is hard to find.
We will know more with the turnouts tomorrow eh?!
Please hold up a sign from me jan, stating rural BC is up for a coalition too!
Going to go to the rememberance anniverary tea tomorrow and talk up the coalition amongst the women there.
___________________________________________________________
"watching the tide roll away"
Someone asked about a website. It isn't three-party, but the Orangeroom is still open and could be a useful resource for tech-savvy types to share tools in this situation.
"The Conservative Party is significantly up from the election in the party standings, but at a cost of real increased tensions between Quebec and the rest of the country," he said.
Over all, the Conservative Party remains at the top of the standings with 45-per-cent support if an election were held today. The Liberals come far behind in second place at 24 per cent, with the NDP at 14 per cent.
The Conservatives are even stronger outside of Quebec, getting the support of 53 per cent of respondents in the nine primarily English-speaking provinces.
In Quebec, however, the Conservative Party garners only 18-per-cent support, which is four points lower than its disappointing Oct. 14 election result. The Liberals are holding relatively steady at 23 per cent, while the Bloc is up three points at 41 per cent.
The poll nonetheless shows that the Harper Conservatives chose the most popular course to navigate through the crisis that followed the release of a divisive fiscal update a week ago.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081204.wPOLpoll1205/BNStory/politics/home
I can't believe that the Liberals having technical difficulties is somehow indicative of anything,. In Vancouver this morning the CBC was supposed to broadcast for am remote location for their Annual Food Bank Drive. The feed from the location didn't work so they had to move dozens of people and the whole event back to the studio.
I don't hear the CBC reporters spinning it as positive proof that they are incompetent and can't be trusted?
___________________________________________________________________________________________ A Dark Cloud Hangs Over Our Democracy
"I can't believe that the Liberals having technical difficulties is somehow indicative of anything"
It just confirms the impression of Dion as totally hapless. And it's not good PR for the leader of the coalition, even on a temporary basis, to be perceived as totally hapless.
Technical problems happen often enough. However here Dion and the Liberals had the misfortune of experiencing them at a very pivotal time, seriously undercutting their (and the Coalition's) message at the precise moment when Canadians were most tuned in and willing to hear it.
I think maybe the bigger problem is that Dion was starting out so far behind that he almost had to hit every pitch out of the park last week to overcome his "loser" image. But on the video, at least, he struck out.
[url=http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/549227]Toronto Star: Sources predict early Dion departure[/url]
[url=http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/549227]Toronto Star: Sources predict early Dion departure[/url]
In that case, there is still hope for the Coalition.
I think I mentioned this before but on radio Dion actually didn't come off too bad. I am not saying anything positive about that fiasco, just saying that if you were just listening it was actually okay. Obviously though the medium is the message.
Nixon sounded better then Kennedy on radio. Dion asked for the Televised Network Prime Time and failed to deliver.
I'm not sure I entirely buy that theory. Remember that people in rural areas in 1960 were far less likely than people in urban areas to have televisions. California (barely, despite being Nixon's home state) and Ohio were the only large states to go for Nixon. So Nixon supporters were more likely to listen to the debate on the radio, Kennedy supporters more likely to watch the debate on tv.
I think I mentioned this before but on radio Dion actually didn't come off too bad. I am not saying anything positive about that fiasco, just saying that if you were just listening it was actually okay. Obviously though the medium is the message.
Nixon sounded better then Kennedy on radio. Dion asked for the Televised Network Prime Time and failed to deliver.
I'm not sure I entirely buy that theory. Remember that people in rural areas in 1960 were far less likely than people in urban areas to have televisions. California (barely, despite being Nixon's home state) and Ohio were the only large states to go for Nixon. So Nixon supporters were more likely to listen to the debate on the radio, Kennedy supporters more likely to watch the debate on tv.
---
But people may have read newpaper articles and editorials about their tv presence.
[url=http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/549227]Toronto Star: Sources predict early Dion departure[/url]In that case, there is still hope for the Coalition.
Some, but not much. The polls may tell us how much of the problem was Dion and how much fear of the unknown, and outrage/skepticism about the idea of the coalition requiring the support of the Bloc (the Conservatives requiring the support of one opposition party but not necessarily the Bloc). More importantly if Ignatieff was lukewarm to the idea in the first place, as Leader he might disavow himself of the idea entirely.
I don't see him being picked for leader at this point. Rae wouldn't go along with it. I think an interim leader, such as Goodale, is far more likely.
"Over all, the Conservative Party remains at the top of the standings with 45-per-cent support if an election were held today. The Liberals come far behind in second place at 24 per cent, with the NDP at 14 per cent."
I tend to think that whatever gains the Conservatives have enjoyed this week, might peter out over the next few weeks. Much of that support is due to fear mongering and taking advantage of many peoples general ignorance of the nuances of Parliamentary Democracy. (such as it is)
One would think this to have a limited shelf life.
I don't see him being picked for leader at this point. Rae wouldn't go along with it. I think an interim leader, such as Goodale, is far more likely.
Unless they can hold a Leadership convention in mid-January. It's probably too late for them to do that.
I've changed my mind on Goodale. He would be a good alternative given the Western alienation bent the Conservatives are taking on this and how tough he is in front of the camera. It's significant and telling that very few of the really conservative Liberals are cutting a high profile in support of this whole coalition rigamarole.
The Conservatives aren't united either you know. Ten members did not rise to give the PM a unanimous standing ovation, including Stockwell Day.
The Conservatives aren't united either you know. Ten members did not rise to give the PM a unanimous standing ovation, including Stockwell Day.
"Over all, the Conservative Party remains at the top of the standings with 45-per-cent support if an election were held today. The Liberals come far behind in second place at 24 per cent, with the NDP at 14 per cent."
I tend to think that whatever gains the Conservatives have enjoyed this week, might peter out over the next few weeks. Much of that support is due to fear mongering and taking advantage of many peoples general ignorance of the nuances of Parliamentary Democracy. (such as it is)
One would think this to have a limited shelf life.
We'll see.
I don't see him being picked for leader at this point. Rae wouldn't go along with it. I think an interim leader, such as Goodale, is far more likely.
Unless they can hold a Leadership convention in mid-January. It's probably too late for them to do that.
I don't think they need to have a fullblown convention in order to pick an interim leader.
From the Globe
Most other politicians seem to get this about him now. I don't think I've ever said a kind word for Jack Layton but, this week, he looked statesmanlike and genuinely furious over abandoning desperate people to take a "timeout." Gilles Duceppe, who knows the legal risks for calling someone a liar outside the House, did it anyway. Only Stéphane Dion, who said the PM might undergo a "monumental change," didn't get it. But he gets nothing. "In that format," said a filmmaker about his Wednesday night video, "the only thing you could really do is take off your clothes." If the Liberal Party doesn't find a way to ditch him in the next 10 minutes, it should lose its public funding.
And regarding the coalition
Yesterday morning, a nation stared in the face of political chaos for two hours and saw - a double glass door in Ottawa. No terrorists, no anthrax. But would we be saved from the dreaded coalition?
Yes! By a timeout, the Harper government's term for salvation. And what did it need a timeout from? The possibility of a change of government that is negotiated, constitutional and peaceful.
