NDP Embrace War in Afghanistan

Hey...Unless you been there and have seen the good that is being done keep your mouth shut!

Wonder how you would feel if your Mothers, Daughters & Sisters were dragged from thier homes raped and beaten just for being female or going to school.

Get a Grip!

Sniper

One Shot One Kill!

sniper wrote:

Hey...Unless you been there and have seen the good that is being done keep your mouth shut!

Wonder how you would feel if your Mothers, Daughters & Sisters were dragged from thier homes raped and beaten just for being female or going to school.

Get a Grip!

Sniper

One Shot One Kill!

Umm... and standing around propping up a corrupt Afghan narco - government, who's countries poppie production has increased x fold since the occupation, and forced to NOT intervene while the so called Afghan "army" and "police" go around  raping little boys is more acceptable?

Go back to playing on yer Xbox bud. I'm sure you're pretty good at Halo by now.

"one shot one kill".

Sheesh.

Jingles wrote:

Don't forget helping little girls with their homework.

What's the NATO stock number for elmer's glue and glitter? 

cblpw-00019a

most of the school children supplies are donted from schools in Canada (and US etc.) and by church groups, kinsmen centers, families and so on.

I just want to interject with some points on Unionists prior rants without mudding it up with a bunch of quotes.

1. the NDP is for better or worst the independent political expression of English canadian labour (quebec trade unions have traditionally either remained apolitical (meaning they pick between platforms not parties) or choose to affilliate to more prominent provincial bourgois parties (PQ I heard has some affiliiated unions but I am not a scholar so I wont act tooo authoritative on this one). 

2. nor does anyone else state anywhere at anytime (except Fidel who is in favour of everything the NDP ever did including and not withstanding the action of anti-labour legislation) state the NDP has pro-Labour policies.

3. It qualifies as a Labour party the same way as the UK Labour Party does, a concrete established connection/merger with the mass organizations of the working class (or labour beuracracy if you like.. i dont, i think the leadership on both party and union level is by and large beuracratic). This doesnt mean every worker votes for it. It doesnt mean it always enacts a Socialist society when elected. it is the labour movement that exists and those on the left must adapt and work with it.

4. the left in english Canada must make their task the oustre the reformist and careerist oppurtunistic leadership of both the unions and the NDP in english canada. In quebec I would say a party of labour must be established or built out of existing ones (NDP or Quebec Solidaire come to mind but get creative no need to use my polemic).

 6. also on the point of mass support. doesnt exist. the majority of people one will talk to outside the unions will say they are against the coalition and polls suggest this whole fiasco has actually strengthened the NEOCON movement in this country with roughly 51% of polled people saying they would vote tory today. this has failed. speculate why if you want but those of us on the left just wanted to spare the labour movement this embarassment and spare them a Tory Majority where more attacks as visious as we have already seen and worst.

Now to Fidel

1. shakes head sadly

2. Nobody is advocating the NDP abandon class callavorationism with the liberals and exchange it with class callaboration with the conservatives. both ar vicious beasts and cannot be trusted. I think Spector would agree that the NDP must reject harper in the nearest confidence vote but not form a coalition with the little c conservatives in the LPC as some sort of lesser evil.

2.if both parties in the quote unquote "old line" are equally party to evil George II then why should the NDP support them and spare them their most certain defeat and possible collapse when they next face the electorate. Instead you davocate that Jack and the NDP wear Dion like a necktie of mediocrity and further submitt the NDP to thrid party tactics all so Jack can get the culture ministers post

3. You totally fail to address the most fundemental problems of today and instead tote the line of tired social democracy which has failed and never ended the suffering of the working people of this or any other country I cite the fact that it hasnt prevented 1 recession hasnt eliminated poverty in any place where enacted and has always subordinated to the dictates of capital at the most crucial moments in history.

 all and all the war will prove to be the disgrace of this Party. The Leadership never cared for the dead and those families that will meet their loved ones in flag drapped caskets. it was the rank and file who push these positions, the rank and file are to be credited for the progressive policies the NDP has championed. It is rare that the NDP reformist leadership take it upon themeselves to promote social justice. Libby davies comes to mind, but alas Kennedy unseated her. The NDP leadership Mr.Layton included used this and other issues it seems to further is own aspirations. I say this with great regrett and in hopes that history proves me wrong and the Layton-Mulcair leadership grow backbones on this issue.

I never said they caused the war Fidel I said they now are silently callaborating in government where a full cabinet is responsible for all the policies and functions it overseas. Spector already debunked your delusional conception that the NDP is only responsible for the small sphear of its politcal activity in cabinet in tis six ministries. cabinet votes and is held to the decisions of the majority and must defend these decisions regardless of personal and party line. this is a sell out and Jack didnt say know. like the German Social Democracy and the rest of the Second International in 1914-5 they capitulated to the ruling class and are now agreeing to support the war. If this were to happen with jack and the NDP in cabinet blood is on their hands. Jack is fine with this it seems, and if he's not I challenge him to challenge Ignatieff on this position and demand that the "off the table" clause be removed. Ignatieff wont care and as he has no illusions whats so ever in a coalition and will form the more traditional Liberal-Conservative Accord.

In the Great War, whenever either side found a sniper, they never taken prisoner. They were shot on the spot. Snipers were reviled for their cowardice. 

In more recent times, snipers hone their skills shooting civilians who are forced to present themselves as targets simply to carry out their daily existence. Sarajevo became famous for the toll taken on non-combatants by these loathsome pieces of shit.

In Fallujah, snipers shoot ambulances, animals, the elderly, and pretty much anything that moves or breaths.

In Afghanistan, Canadian snipers target farmers from two kilometers away, and consider themselves, and are feted by our corporate press, as "heroes". 

In Palestine, Israelis use school kids as target practice. 

I consider snipers to fall somewhere between Paul Bernardo and Charles Ing on the scale of scumbag.

One Shot

One Kill

Too chickenshit to face the fight. 

Webgear, I hope that thing wasn't one of yours. You excepted, it's getting to be a common theme that self-identified representatives of the Canadian Forces turn out to be racist thugs whom have little respect for or understanding of those people they desire to kill, and accept wholly the narrative of "Us good: They bad" fed to them by our American-trained officer corps and right wing media.

 Please excuse my rant. 

If i had my way we go back to the good old day of killing people in melee combat. Not even bows.  To see your enemy before they die would go a long ways toward deterring the "I got a drone with cluster bombs that I can fly from my living room" mentality of the halo generation. It's harder to kill someone when you know you could have not killed them. I wa talking to my mom about Dresden during WW2(germany not ontario) she didn't know we targeted civilians just a couple months before the war ended, then claimed it wasn't a war crime during the nurmeburg tials. Funny that eh, using phosporous isn't so bad as long as we do it.

______________________________________________________________________________________
"Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really easy way: stop participating in it."
Noam Chomsky

Realigned wrote:

Do yo uhave any news articles referencing Canadian snipers killing farmers from 2KMs away?

If the "farmers" have been fingered as Taliban or al-Qaeda by the USA, then, yes, Canadian forces have carried out assassinations by sniping.

Canadian Press, September 17, 2005 wrote:

Canadian special forces soldiers in southern Afghanistan have killed Taliban and al-Qaeda rebels in multiple operations over recent months as they work secretly in small units, military sources say....

JTF2 commandos have joined counterparts from the United States and some Commonwealth countries, such as Australia, in fighting that has claimed more than 1,200 lives in six months, the Canadian defence sources say....

Some engagements are long-range; others are close-in. Some involve a degree of infiltration into enemy compounds and "behind enemy lines" -- although no lines really exist in the mountainous and desert terrain where they operate.

The commandos, some of whom speak a smattering of area dialects, often work in collaboration with local citizens who know the lay of the land. Using specialized weapons, Canadian snipers have played their deadly cat-and-mouse games at night and in the 50-degree heat of Afghan summer days.

Many of their victims -- whom the chief of defence staff recently called "murderers and scumbags" -- never knew what hit them, one source told The Canadian Press.

Beyond acknowledging that JTF2 is in Afghanistan, defence officials and the federal government have maintained their usual strict silence about the unit's exploits.

Perhaps you were hoping I had stopped using an annoying tag line. You were wrong; you're reading it now. Why not email a moderator to demand that signature/tag lines be abolished forthwith?

Slumberjack wrote:

They are representative of Canadian society, who just happen to enrol into the military, as they are.   In far too many instances though, they do find a receptive and fostering atmoshpere for their views.

I think they are young people who find higher education to be too expensive in Canada. They want job training and access to subsidized education. So they choose socialism in a bastardized form over low wage philanthropy in the private sector.

I think they are well educated Canadians in their late 30's to 40's who never found decent jobs in the "information economy" that never was and is now going away.

I think they are Canadians who find the new McService sector economy paying too low a wages and few benefits, or are tired of part-time lowly paid and lowly skilled work in this country exporting massive amounts of energy and raw materials to the USSA on the cheap, so that economy can prosper and grow at Canada's expense.

I refference the line that says "Afghanistant is off the table" that not one single person on this forum has contested has been stated, the t.v. footage shows Jack Layton not even objecting. Unless Jack actually joined the Liberals (not suggesting he would leave the NDP)  he is still the Leader of the NDP. stop arguing on an ignorant level and have some substance to your argument. Fact: the NDP rank and file by overwhelming majority decided to demand the end of the war via a strongly worded resolution. Fact: The NDP leadership and parliamentary caucus have been vage and have watered down this resolution to the point where it had no meaning (Canada in an Imperialist adventure but in a "non-Combative" role) and now The NDP is trying to join a coalition with a party that not only started this war but seek to propogate it to at least Harpers 2011 date if not beyond and Jack agrees that this issue is off the table and cabinet will there by not be re examining this issue. Fact: The oppurtunist leadership doesnt care about those who come home dead in flag draped coffins but shallowly used the issue to obtain a few progressive voters from the outraged small-l Liberal catagory. If I am wrong then Jack should come out swinging on this point and make it one of the conditions of support for the NDP's assistance in reviving the Liberal party of Capital from the electoral drudgery it is in. or better yet why not defeat the Conservatives, not join an alliance with Michael Ignatieff (more right wing than Harper) and actually stand as the alternative to the conservative agenda.

NDP to power on a Socialist Program!

Canada out of Afghanistan!  

"NDP to power on a Socialist Program!

Canada out of Afghanistan!"

Sounds like I am verry Anti-NDP...Fidel you my friend are an ass. when you can no longer hold your own you hurl an insult at the tories and libs which is all fine and good but those of us seriously committed to the advancement of this party dont want to see it callaborating with this war-promoting party in governing. we fundementally agree that the capitalists in the Liberal party must be rooted along with harper but I start at home, I want capitalist leadership of the party of labour held to account. failure to work toward this is a failure and the party is better off with out those who blindly follow the NDP. Should Marxists occupy the leadership of this party some day (could happen) then I wouldnt venture to say people like fidel would follow like a sheep. Until you break the party line when it is undoubtbly wrong I will not take you seriously and I doubt the other comrades in the NDP will either.  

This my friend we can agree on (shakes hands with Fidel).

Iggy's just a placeholder for the next Liberal plutocrat with a chance of leading their disgraced party to its former glory.

This talk of changing leaders is typical of the two old line parties and their support base whenever their parties fail to win phony majorities.

Layton will stay on and fight the plutocracy. He is worth more than all of the handpicked stooges our two old line parties can throw at him. NDP'ers don't quit on Canadians. They stand and fight the good fight.

Here, here slumberjack. I hope you hold an organge card and will put those strong words into practice as I will. Fidel is nothing but a Lapdog for the leadership he will parrot what they say no matter what. he'd make an excellent Parliamentary assisstant (pitch yourself to the reactionaries like Pat Martin they will just love you).

Fidel wrote:

You said the NDP are silent collaborators to the fascist invasion of Afghanistan, as if they are Vichies or some such. You have no money trail from Bay Street to point us to nor a list of Emil Kirdorf type kapitalists propping up the NDP in silence from the sidelines. To summarize, you have nothing. I'm sorry, but your rabid anti-NDP rhetoric has failed you again.

 Meanwhile herr Harper has dumped a truckload of perogies on parliament and is holed up at the Eagle's nest somewhere in the Alps.

The NDP just has not been caught; there is always a money trail.

M. Spector wrote:

If the "farmers" have been fingered as Taliban or al-Qaeda by the USA, then, yes, Canadian forces have carried out assassinations by sniping.

Ah yes in that case then you're right.  The post I responded to implied that Canadian snipers were blasting away random joe achmed farmers in fields.

You are right though the Taliban often either pretend to be farmers for a cover or arctually farmers.  Tend their crops by day, kill infidels at night.

We see a decrease in hostile activity here in the winter months because the Taliban burry their AKs and RPS and go tend to their crops.

WHen we 'pull out' of Afghanistan do you think it means a total withdraw of all soldiers and equipment, or that we will leave soldiers behind in a mentoring/rebuilding format. We just won't perform 'combat' missions.

The PDSS stations and such sprinkled across the area have been very effective at bringing security and saftey- albeit to a very small area around the stations. More stations would increase the security bubble.

And the NDP leadership seems to envy the Ignatieffs of this world at that Fidel. The NDP's oppurtunist beurocratic leadership seem to be using the NDP becaus frankly The old line parties have enough leaders. Social Democracy is the opium of the misinformed. I only hope we shed ourselves of this dead weight before its to late for the labour movement in this country.

Fidel, I am sure that NDP has it share of big business financing its daily operations.

I also believe the Sweden has military forces is in Afghanistan.

Those evil Swedes, you can't trust those former Viking types.

Quote:

You are right though the Taliban often either pretend to be farmers for a cover or arctually farmers.  Tend their crops by day, kill infidels at night.

Did you ever once stop to think that maybe, just maybe, they [i]are[/i] farmers? Did you ever wonder what you would do if your home was invaded, your family murdered, and a foreign thug destroys your livelyhood for their domestic propaganda about "drug interdiction"?

If the farmers are doing what you say, and I hope they are, then doesn't that make you question the whole "they want us here" bullshit you've been fed and happily regurgitate?

So much for the evil terrorists. Turns out that all along they were just regular farmers trying to survive and defend their homes. 

If my town was facing the same situation, I hope I'd have half the courage those folks display.

While you're sipping your Double Double inside a nice armoured vehicle cozy in your body armour safe in the knowledge that if anything did happen you'd have immediate first class medical care while overhead American AC-130's blast away wedding parties and your gunner watches over the area with his night vision scopes, there is a farmer in his sandals and wool coat carrying an ancient rifle probably taken from a dead Russian, just waiting for his chance to fuck you up. 

Have a good night, "hero".  

Fidel

I was hoping you would tell me who is financing the NDP because I can not find that information.

I believe the Swedes are conducting combat operations, I know they are training ANSF.

Actually you stated the NDP was not financed by Bay Street, I asked to you the proof of who donates to the party as far as I am aware these donators are not public knowledge.

Can you explain the difference between peacekeeping and combat operations? Can you explain the differences between defensive and offensive operations?

Your Nordic countries also have strong militaries

Jingles wrote:

Quote:

You are right though the Taliban often either pretend to be farmers for a cover or arctually farmers.  Tend their crops by day, kill infidels at night.

Did you ever once stop to think that maybe, just maybe, they [i]are[/i] farmers? Did you ever wonder what you would do if your home was invaded, your family murdered, and a foreign thug destroys your livelyhood for their domestic propaganda about "drug interdiction"?

If the farmers are doing what you say, and I hope they are, then doesn't that make you question the whole "they want us here" bullshit you've been fed and happily regurgitate?

So much for the evil terrorists. Turns out that all along they were just regular farmers trying to survive and defend their homes. 

If my town was facing the same situation, I hope I'd have half the courage those folks display.

While you're sipping your Double Double inside a nice armoured vehicle cozy in your body armour safe in the knowledge that if anything did happen you'd have immediate first class medical care while overhead American AC-130's blast away wedding parties and your gunner watches over the area with his night vision scopes, there is a farmer in his sandals and wool coat carrying an ancient rifle probably taken from a dead Russian, just waiting for his chance to fuck you up. 

Have a good night, "hero".  

 

Jingles I have a feeling my recruiting efforts won't work on you.

I have no doubt that some of the Taliban are farmers who are are pissed off at NATO. Some are foreign fighters from Pakastan. Some are forced by the Taliban to oppose NATO on threat to their family.

The locals are stuck between making ISAF happy and the Taliban happy.

Some of them are quite honest about it. I hate ISAF. I Hate the Taliban. What would it take for you to leave us alone.  Others hate the Taliban and are very happy we are here and support us. Others say when the Taliban were in power they felt secure and had electricity etc..  Depends what part of the country you're in and city or countryside.

It's not all that safe inside those armored vehicles. A friend of mine just did a few days ago when him and 2 others were killed from an IED.

THe immediate first class medical care is great. What's even better is that locals who are hurt through incidents with ISAF, The Taliban or ven completely unrelated can and do get treatd bu ISAF medics and doctors. We see a lot of locals being treated at the hospital here.

Whats even more Ironic is that when those big AC130s  (or whoever) engage insurgents and  do their thing, a hour later  "farmers" with bullet holes,gun powder residue and traces of home made explosives  or TNT on their hands show up at the front gates to the fobs looking for medical attention.  The local translators and police recognize them "They Taliban they bad"but we patch them up and send them on their way regardless.

Never claimed to be a hero. Just doing the job the elected government in Canada is telling me to do trying to help who I can along the way.

Holy moley.  197 posts??  Guess I didn't notice this one yesterday.  Sorry, folks.  Anyhow, closing it now.