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Why is propaganda allowed and how can we stop it?

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Thu, 2008-12-11 02:31

#1

Brian White

Why is propaganda allowed and how can we stop it?

In the can west media owned victoria times colanist today the editorial plugged harper by ssaing that we do not need an unelected coalition or an election. Why are they allowed to get away with this? Nobody "won" the election. Yet there is this perception that harper won and they keep feeding it with this type of stuff.

I come from a country where the most successful governments were coalitions. And some countrys only know coalition government. I do not think germany has ever had single party government!

I cannot understand why they are allowed to get away with it. Freedom of speech seems to be taken as freedom to lie. The pm in canada is the person who gets a majority in a house vote. If that is the leader of a coalition, there is nothing unelected about the coalition. Every member is elected. And despite them having political scientists pointing this out to them every day, they continue with their editoral line.

Enough should be enough. Make Goebbels stop now.

Thu, 2008-12-11 07:28

#2

Michelle

Because it's an opinion piece, and newspapers are still allowed to post opinion pieces. It's not fun when they don't agree with us, and I agree that media concentration means that there are a lot more editorials in favour of corporate political parties.

There are a lot of people who believe in the system we have. They're not "lying" when they say that Harper won the election. They're stating an opinion based on what they consider to be a legitimate electoral system.

Thu, 2008-12-11 07:32

#3

Michelle

Brian White wrote:

I do not think germany has ever had single party government!

Uh...I think they did! My grandmother remembers it well! You even made an allusion to that single party German government in the last sentence of your post...

Thu, 2008-12-11 07:33

#4

Caissa

To answer the title: why would we want to stop propaganda? We use it all the time.

Thu, 2008-12-11 08:21

#5

George Victor

What we need is to have an unassailable position on an unarguable point!

For me is has to do with the kind of economic and political position we'll need to beat climate change...but it does not resonate universally.

Thu, 2008-12-11 09:37

#6

martin dufresne

Unassailable points are bunkers and unarguable points are weapons. I think we need to assail their points more effectively, with better arguments.

And numbers.

Thu, 2008-12-11 09:53

#7

clersal

What we really need is more outrageous propaganda than is currently used and utterly confuse everyone.

Thu, 2008-12-11 09:56

#8

Maysie

Maysie's picture

Isn't that what babble does?

Thu, 2008-12-11 10:12

#9

martin dufresne

Confused people tend to vote for "security".

Thu, 2008-12-11 10:59

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

I think what Brian is talking about is not 'propaganda' (which only implies bias, rather than outright dishonesty), but the outright 'BIG LIE' that has become a standard to our south, and is beginning to enter the mainstream here. Why are obviously mendacious talking points parroted endlessly in our media now? I honestly don't remember this happening 20 years ago.

[i]edited to say[/i]

Make that 25 years ago. My first recollection of sweeping use of the Big Lie was during the original Free Trade campaign. Mulroney infected us, and the syphillitic rot has since carried to the brain under Harper.

Thu, 2008-12-11 11:40

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

M. Spector's picture

The mainstream media have been pushing the 'BIG LIE' since before William Randolph Hearst was in diapers.

What you are reading now is an annoying and obtrusive tag line. Why not Email Michelle to demand that signature/tag lines be abolished forthwith? I'm sure she would appreciate your support for this initiative.

Thu, 2008-12-11 16:14

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

I know what you're saying, but I do think that it's gotten far worse during the Harper regime; and I do not think that my recollections of [i]relative[/i] purity during the Pearson and Trudeau eras (and even through the first Mulroney session) are false.

The 'converged' media outlets work very tightly with the Conservative servants of their corporate masters today. The media punditry is indistinguishable from the political talking heads.

Thu, 2008-12-11 17:54

clersal

In my mind, propaganda is an event or events that have been so twisted they end up being absolute bullshit.

Thu, 2008-12-11 23:10

Fleabitn2

Freedom of the press means that those who own the press are free to disseminate all the lies they see fit to print.

Fri, 2008-12-12 00:58

Madwow

buy your own press, cause I don't think that the press owners are going to disseminate that which they do not agree with

Fri, 2008-12-12 11:15

Buddy Kat

Many years ago it was discovered that if you lie or say something bad about a person no matter how awful the lie is and even if you retract the lie the damage is done just like if it was the truth. That was about 20 years ago. Since then it is common practice in the world of propaganda to spin, twist ,bend or even outright lie. Because it works. Propaganda works , that's why governments do it , the military does it, the media does it , but the goody goody play fair an honest people don't .

The thing is the reason propaganda exists is because the truth is being suppressed..you use it to trick and sway not to let people know what the truth of a matter is. A good example would be whats currently going on. It's in ctv's and the conservative interest to make harper the super Canadian and everybody else seperatists or un Canadian, with lies about veto power for seperatists(traitors) etc etc.

The truth being buried is harper is the traitor..the briber..the liar..the eavesdropper or spy..the ctv is the facilitator of all the above.

You can basically apply that to the war in Aghanistan (propagandistan) where no one knows what it's about , but if any reason shuts you up that's the reason. The economy..." Canadians aren't worried about jobloss and losing there home"..hahahaha. It's all about covering up the truth.

How to stop it? You can't either your on the bus or off the bus. Being on the bus gets you there being off the bus gets you no where. This is why I say the ndp or left need there own propaganda machine via a single nationwide tv station. This talk about running outside screaming the truth will just get the attention of a few birds flying by. You basically have to rub things in the face of Canadians to get anywhere unfortunately. If you think it's bad here just look at the US or Russia. I still have a hard time thinking that conservatives think obama is the antichrist therefore he has a tail. Yep people are very gullible and ignorant and easly swayed by the media.

Fri, 2008-12-12 13:46

Brian White

No, Michelle you only WIN an election if your party or alliance gets more than 50% of the seats. Thats a basic rule and is not trumped by opinion.

Harper got less than 50% of the seats so he didnt win.

Michelle wrote:

Because it's an opinion piece, and newspapers are still allowed to post opinion pieces. It's not fun when they don't agree with us, and I agree that media concentration means that there are a lot more editorials in favour of corporate political parties.

There are a lot of people who believe in the system we have. They're not "lying" when they say that Harper won the election. They're stating an opinion based on what they consider to be a legitimate electoral system.

Fri, 2008-12-12 13:53

jas

No, Brian, in Canada, you win an election if your party wins the most seats.

Fri, 2008-12-12 13:54

Caissa

No, you win an election if you are able to form the government.

Fri, 2008-12-12 14:03

Brian White

Ok Buddy Kat, so you want to join in and compete with harpers propaganda machine! "This talk about running outside screaming the truth will just get the attention of a few birds flying by". The NDP cannot compete with his access to money and friends who ghost write editorials. Not going to work, thats just another race to the bottom. You can have your hitler or stalin at the end of that race.

But the NDP COULD protray themselves as the good guy by writing down rules and guidelines for fair play in the media. No more race to the bottom.

Rule 1 opinion pieces stick with the facts,

Rule 2 Letters to the editor that are clearly wrong on facts do not get printed.

You could have up to 10 basic rules and fines for infractions.

I now find myself argueing with NDP people over whether Harper won the election or not. Thats insane! You only win an election if you get a majority of seats. Sorry, Harper didn't. Go ask a political scientist or someone with a calculator if you don't believe me. But even having you guys argue the point shows how powerful the harper propaganda is.

Buddy Kat wrote:

Many years ago it was discovered that if you lie or say something bad about a person no matter how awful the lie is and even if you retract the lie the damage is done just like if it was the truth. That was about 20 years ago. Since then it is common practice in the world of propaganda to spin, twist ,bend or even outright lie. Because it works. Propaganda works , that's why governments do it , the military does it, the media does it , but the goody goody play fair an honest people don't .

The thing is the reason propaganda exists is because the truth is being suppressed..you use it to trick and sway not to let people know what the truth of a matter is. A good example would be whats currently going on. It's in ctv's and the conservative interest to make harper the super Canadian and everybody else seperatists or un Canadian, with lies about veto power for seperatists(traitors) etc etc.

The truth being buried is harper is the traitor..the briber..the liar..the eavesdropper or spy..the ctv is the facilitator of all the above.

You can basically apply that to the war in Aghanistan (propagandistan) where no one knows what it's about , but if any reason shuts you up that's the reason. The economy..." Canadians aren't worried about jobloss and losing there home"..hahahaha. It's all about covering up the truth.

How to stop it? You can't either your on the bus or off the bus. Being on the bus gets you there being off the bus gets you no where. This is why I say the ndp or left need there own propaganda machine via a single nationwide tv station. This talk about running outside screaming the truth will just get the attention of a few birds flying by. You basically have to rub things in the face of Canadians to get anywhere unfortunately. If you think it's bad here just look at the US or Russia. I still have a hard time thinking that conservatives think obama is the antichrist therefore he has a tail. Yep people are very gullible and ignorant and easly swayed by the media.

Fri, 2008-12-12 14:22

Brian White

jas wrote:
No, Brian, in Canada, you win an election if your party wins the most seats.

Sorry dear, you are wrong. Your thoughts have been compromised.

Fri, 2008-12-12 14:28

Caissa

As Pilate allegedly asked "What is truth?"

Fri, 2008-12-12 18:08

Buddy Kat

[quote=Brian White]

"Ok Buddy Kat, so you want to join in and compete with harpers propaganda machine! "This talk about running outside screaming the truth will just get the attention of a few birds flying by". The NDP cannot compete with his access to money and friends who ghost write editorials. Not going to work, thats just another race to the bottom. You can have your hitler or stalin at the end of that race.

But the NDP COULD protray themselves as the good guy by writing down rules and guidelines for fair play in the media. No more race to the bottom.

Rule 1 opinion pieces stick with the facts,

Rule 2 Letters to the editor that are clearly wrong on facts do not get printed.

You could have up to 10 basic rules and fines for infractions.

I now find myself argueing with NDP people over whether Harper won the election or not. Thats insane! You only win an election if you get a majority of seats. Sorry, Harper didn't. Go ask a political scientist or someone with a calculator if you don't believe me. But even having you guys argue the point shows how powerful the harper propaganda is."

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Letters to the editor hahaha I was warned once that they edit too much sometimes and the message gets skewed to their way of thinking and I said "Right" ...boy was I in for a surprise! many people with great views and ideas are actually muzzled because of that practice of editing.

Rules rules rules it doesn't really matter a lot is the inflection or the tongue in cheek reporting or the ridicule of a story. You can report the facts but HOW you report it is very important. For example referring to green supporters as groupies while laughing and conservative supporters as supporters seriously...get it. This is the type of crap that goes on. All within the guidelines you outlined but with differant effect.

I agree factual reporting is great and the internet is good for unedited editorials and finding facts , no question.

Maybe in the future instead of real people doing the reporting it will be an animated person that can't show emotion and just report the facts...what will the brainless people who can't think for themselves do?

Yeh I can't believe that people don't even know what the coalition is ...it's whatever ctv and global say..god help us!

Sat, 2008-12-13 04:14

Brian White

The fair rules thing is possible. I saw it today in a different field where a statistician with some government appointed group in england strongly rebuked the pm office for jumping the gun on reporting some or other finding!

The have a system in place over there so the government cannot take advantage from releasing public info early. This is a quality control system for ministerial behaviour! It is codified. Such a system is needed here for newspapers. In england people sue and win if a paper prints incorrect or damaging info. Here they get away with calling a coalition a coup.

Thats like saying that most of the civilized world is governed by coup!

Philip K Dick said "If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words." So you can see why and how they do it.

Socalist now means separatist in many peoples minds

(and vica verca) and coalition means coup.

And plurality now means majority too for some.

This stuff is very difficult to stop but it must be stopped! We can fight it. But we have to explain it as we do so.

Sat, 2008-12-13 20:19

Buddy Kat

Well I hate to say it but it looks like propaganda is here to stay. The best thing would be a left leaning news service to balance things out. Most of the current problems like the interpretation of coup and coalition are a result of the right media deliberatly misinforming Canadians.

I think we just got a good example of news release timing on Friday. Friday is the day to release news when you want the story to die..by Monday it's history. The report finding 4 mounties innocent in killing the Polish guy at the airport was released Friday..that story is SUPPOSED to die. After all they don't want people rioting in the streets and then god fobid charge the people involved with murder like they do in Greece.

The right media will follow suit because they know what Friday release means....it's supposed to die. A left media will point out how in Greece ...the country that isn't as good as ours actually charges the police when they murder innocent people. Can you imagine Canadains actually ashamed of what they allow. Reacting to it..demading justice... It won't happen till there is balance and things as we are now seeing on a daily basis are deteriating because of it.

Sat, 2008-12-13 21:44

Brian White

You can NEVER balance out the propaganda. They have more money and always will. It is deregulated just like the stock exchange and the holy free market.

The left CAN win if it gets regulated and everyone has to play fair. They cannot win if the right can change the meaning of words at will. The left regulates stuff and the right uses tooth and claw. Regulations can be like files and clippers to detooth and declaw the right.

Buddy Kat wrote:

Well I hate to say it but it looks like propaganda is here to stay. The best thing would be a left leaning news service to balance things out. Most of the current problems like the interpretation of coup and coalition are a result of the right media deliberatly misinforming Canadians.

I think we just got a good example of news release timing on Friday. Friday is the day to release news when you want the story to die..by Monday it's history. The report finding 4 mounties innocent in killing the Polish guy at the airport was released Friday..that story is SUPPOSED to die. After all they don't want people rioting in the streets and then god fobid charge the people involved with murder like they do in Greece.

The right media will follow suit because they know what Friday release means....it's supposed to die. A left media will point out how in Greece ...the country that isn't as good as ours actually charges the police when they murder innocent people. Can you imagine Canadains actually ashamed of what they allow. Reacting to it..demading justice... It won't happen till there is balance and things as we are now seeing on a daily basis are deteriating because of it.