Massacre in Gaza: Israeli strikes kill more than 200

Grab on tight to that moral high road, Unionist, Palestinian blood is making it slippery.

Unionist wrote:

Cueball defends Hamas because it is (his words) "indigenous". That's a code-word for Muslim.

He contemptuously dismisses all non-Islamic organizations as follows:

Quote:

... there is [b]no other effective organization[/b] defending Palestinian interests, as [b]all others[/b], even the late Yasser Arafat's Fatah, [b]are hopelessly corrupt[/b], if not in fact direct tools of the occupation.

It is difficult to debate such a Manichean world outlook.

I guess. Of course, its merely the outlook of a large number of Palestinians, including Palestinian intellectuals such as the late Edward Said. When Palestinian say that Fatah is "corrupt", they do not mean that its ministers are taking bribes on the side (though there is that too), they mean it serves the ends of the occupation, and operates as the "indigenous" enforcers of the occupation.

The fact that such opposition would formulate itself around traditional organizational forms, founded in the local cultural traditions and organization, in this case Islamic ones that are clearly independent of the ideological trappings that tie it to the corrupted resistance is also predictable. But you can be forgiven your whimsical nostalgia for Nasserite, Pan-Arabism, because its clear you haven't actually read a lot of Palestinian commentary. Meaning, you would prefer not to listen so that you can impose the world view that you are comfortable with.  

Now, of course, nothing is black and white, and numerous principled secularist people, such as Marawan Barghouti, continue to carry on the struggle in Fatah, and elsewhere outside of the dynamics of the Fatah/Hamas split, but dismissing the legitimacy of Hamas as a representative of the Palestinian people, because it is founded in Islamic traditions, is a cop out.

Perhaps it will be that the left will one day be able to resurrect itself as a force in Palestinian politics, but denying the reality, in favour of comfortable fantasies, such as the idea that Hamas can be dismissed merely a creature of Israeli malfeasance, is not going to bring that goal any closer. Moreover, haughtily proclaiming your heartfelt desire that the Palestinians will one day find leadership, because it is "non-existent", is to exhibit extremely paternalistic attitudes.

You simply can not see anything outside of the European paradigms that you are comfortable with.

So, I said, indiginous, as opposed to Muslim, for a reason. As I have outlined most of the politics of the world over the last century were defined in the context of the ideas imposed on the rest of the world through the agency of European imperialism, and likewise the opposition to it found expression in the left/right split, and as often as not that left opposition took on imperialist forms.

One only has to look at the Soviet incorporation of the Muslim SSR's, over the heads of the "indigenous" opposition (often organized as Islamic parties) during the Russian civil war, its invasion of Iran in 1940, and the invasion of Afghanistan, to see this clearly.Is it any wonder that Arab resistance movements seek to formulate an alternate hegemony based in an ideological tradition entirely free of the taint of European ideas that not only failed to liberate, but also often exacerbated the problems faced by their people? 

You just can't stand the idea that Palestinians might be able to construct political ideas and organizations free of western tutelage. What was it you said? Oh yes: "You'd see the need to have friends. Which also means allowing people their ideas, while paying attention to their actual stands in life."

"Which also mean allowing people their ideas", according to you. Fair enough, so whatever happened to that idea in the Palestinian context. The idea that Hamas is an effective tool for resistance to the occupation, shared by many Palestinians, doesn't seem to warrant much respect in your book. What kind of "ally" does that make you?

Unionist wrote:

Cueball wrote:

... dismissing the legitimacy of Hamas as a representative of the Palestinian people, because it is founded in Islamic traditions, is a cop out.

It would be, if I had done it. You see anti-Islamism everywhere. You should really slow down once in a while.

You did, and you did it again, just now while denying you were doing it. The concept of "Islamism" is a western ideological construct that is part of imposed western hegemony, which came into existence as a propaganda trope of the war on terror.

Your "besieged and slaughtered and oppressed on all sides" trope, more of the same. And a political cop out. What is the result of this cop out? A decent into blaming the victims of the occupation for the occupation.

Your charachterization of Hamas is arrogant vein and stupid. It was the actions of Hamas in the occupied territories during the first Intifada that brought Israel to the bargaining table, and gave Yasser Arafat a new lease on his political life, when he was in exile lollygagging about Tunisia.

http://www.road90.com/watch.php?id=GDeHtXwwxh

http://www.road90.com/watch.php?id=vVlDVNaOHs

http://www.road90.com/watch.php?id=RqcRDjWhNF

 
1: Israel's true motive in bombing Gaza,
is genocide against the Palestinian people and extermination of their
right to statehood.

Israel's genuine interest in this campaign is strikingly similar to
Hamas' interest in firing scores of rockets into Israeli population
centers: Forcing a cease-fire on better terms than the one just ended.
For Hamas, this largely means easing Israeli economic sanctions
against Gazans. For Israel, this centers on ending shelling by Qassam
and Grad missiles and mortar shells. For both sides, this means a
prisoner exchange, centering on Gilad Shalit and hundreds of jailed
Hamas members.

 
2: The Palestinians have no recourse but to defend
themselves, and the makeshift rockets they fire are nothing compared to
the world's most advanced warplanes and munitions, which the IDF is
using against them.

The Human Rights Watch organization has been unequivocal in condemning the use of Qassam rockets
as a direct violation of international humanitarian law and the laws of
war. The firing of Qassams and mortars against civilian populations
also
constitutes collective punishment

against hundreds of thousands of innocent Israeli men, women and children.

Moreover, the firing of Qassams began not as a response to the
siege against Gaza, but as a marathon celebration by armed Islamic
fundamentalist groups following Israel's withdrawal of its troops and
settlers from the Strip. To purposely add insult to injury, Islamic
Jihad and other organizations used the ruins of settlements as launch
platforms.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050421.html

nonest factum wrote:

  1: Israel's true motive in bombing Gaza, is genocide against the Palestinian people and extermination of their right to statehood.
Israel's genuine interest in this campaign is strikingly similar to Hamas' interest in firing scores of rockets into Israeli population centers: Forcing a cease-fire on better terms than the one just ended.
For Hamas, this largely means easing Israeli economic sanctions against Gazans. For Israel, this centers on ending shelling by Qassam and Grad missiles and mortar shells. For both sides, this means a prisoner exchange, centering on Gilad Shalit and hundreds of jailed Hamas members.

  2: The Palestinians have no recourse but to defend themselves, and the makeshift rockets they fire are nothing compared to the world's most advanced warplanes and munitions, which the IDF is using against them.

The Human Rights Watch organization has been unequivocal in condemning the use of Qassam rockets as a direct violation of international humanitarian law and the laws of war. The firing of Qassams and mortars against civilian populations also
constitutes collective punishment
against hundreds of thousands of innocent Israeli men, women and children.

Moreover, the firing of Qassams began not as a response to the siege against Gaza, but as a marathon celebration by armed Islamic fundamentalist groups following Israel's withdrawal of its troops and settlers from the Strip. To purposely add insult to injury, Islamic Jihad and other organizations used the ruins of settlements as launch platforms. 

 

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050421.html

Aren't you the "educated" observer who thought Michelle Palmer was going to 6 year of hard time for having sex on the beech in Dubai? Whatever happened to that, anyway?

I see you posted some tripe propaganda footage about the Palestinian Blitz of toy rockets. I guess it never occurred to you that a responsible government, like the one of Winston Churchill during WW II, made every effort to remove civilians from areas targetted for attack. Of course, the powers that be in Israel prefer to have the posed propaganda footage of children hiding under tables so they can justify spending millions and million of dollars killing Palestinians by conducting military operations in Gaza, so they can look tough, as opposed to being sensible and relocating people from Sderot. 

That is how much the Israeli government "cares" about its people.

 3: All that Hamas is asking, is
recognition as the democratically elected government of Gaza, and an
end to the Israeli economic embargo. Were they to attain these goals,
there would be calm on both sides of the border.

It is both unrealistic and dangerous to believe that Hamas has
abandoned its clearly stated and often reiterated goal of establishing
an Islamic Palestinian state in all of the Holy Land, including all
land claimed, annexed by, or in any way occupied by Israel.

Beyond that, Hamas has strong alliances with the Egyptian
opposition Muslim brotherhood, as well as working partnerships with the
Iran-dominated Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad.

Israeli restraint, when practiced, has been met with contempt and
additional Hamas and Hamas-tolerated strikes against civilian
populations.

 4: The Israeli blockade against Hamas is state terrorism and any means to fight it are legitimate.

There is every reason to believe that Israel's economic siege
against Gaza is misguided, but not for an essential cruelty, rather
because Hamas taxes collected on the influx of goods imported through
tunnels from Egyptian territory have subsidized and cemented Hamas
rule.

 5: The world overwhelmingly sympathizes with the
Palestinians against Israel, and unreservedly backs their struggle for
independence.

In an era of global revulsion against radical Islamic terror,
Hamas' protracted program of suicide bombings, drive-by murders and
shelling of civilian populations, coupled with its refusal to renounce
violence, recognize Israel, or accept past peace agreements, coupled
with its ideology of militant jihad, have drained the Palestinians of
international sympathy and have, in fact, legitimized Israeli arguments
of military self-defense.

Nothing has been more instrumental in harming the cause of
Palestinian independence than Hamas, with its brutal take-over of Gaza
in a war with brother Palestinians, and its frank efforts to build a
large-scale regular army force in the Strip.

Unionist: "you wouldn't talk that way if you had spent the last 40 years actively mobilizing support for the Palestinian cause"

I realize that this is what gives you the illusion of moral entitlement to attack Hamas alongside with Israel, a tragical delusion.

Quote:

INDEPENDENT JEWISH VOICES CONDEMNS ISRAEL'S GAZA MASSACRE

(December 28, 2008)- The Israeli military has unleashed its most vicious air assault against the people of Gaza in decades, killing over 280 Gazans and wounding over 700. Despite claims by the Israeli leadership that they are trying to avoid civilians the attacks have been concentrated on Gaza City and the towns of Khan Younis and Rafah. Israeli television reports that Israeli troops are massing on the border "in preparation for a supplementary ground offensive"

Independent Jewish Voices (Canada) condemns this murderous escalation of violence by the Israeli government. Diana Ralph, IJV Coordinator calls this assault  "completely disproportionate to the unsupportable firing of Qassam rockets by Hamas fighters which  killed one Israeli. It's important to put this into the context of the deadly siege of Gaza by the Israeli forces, which continued in violation of the terms of the recent six month truce between Israel and Gaza. In the ethics of violent conflicts, it is the responsibility of the force wielding power - the Israeli government in this case - to create the conditions for a just peace."

Dr. Judy Deutsch, IJV representative, added: "This massacre will only intensify the cycle of violence in the region and heighten the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. The aim of these attacks is not to bring about peace but to strengthen the position of the Israeli government as it heads into elections next February."

Independent Jewish Voices (Canada) calls for an immediate halt to all violence in the conflict, the cessation of the Israeli government's blockade against Gaza, a complete withdrawal of Israeli forces from the Occupied West Bank and the dismantling of settlements.

We also call on the Canadian government to recall its ambassador to Israel and strongly condemn Israel's assault.

Independent Jewish Voices (Canada) - formerly known as the Alliance of Concerned Jewish Canadians - is a network of 18 Jewish groups as well as individual Jews from across Canada who are opposed to the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories.

- 30 -

Contact: Judy Deutsch, Ph.D., 416-929-8349, [email protected] ; Diana Ralph, Coordinator, IJV, 613-321-2765, [email protected]

From independentjewishvoices.ca

Unionist wrote:

martin dufresne wrote:

I realize that this is what gives you the illusion of moral entitlement to attack Hamas alongside with Israel, a tragical delusion.

I do [b]not[/b] "attack Hamas". I was the first on this board to condemn the Harper regime for being the first government in the world to withhold funding from the Palestinian Authority after Hamas was elected. I unconditionally defend the Palestinian people, and their government, against aggression by the Israeli murderers. I unconditionally defend their right to be represented by, and to choose, the government and the leadership that they want.

You and cueball care nothing about that. You want some simpering analysis that says that Hamas is a good thing - a great move for the Palestinians - the key to their liberation. You think people are fucking idiots??

I don't want any such thing. I want you to recognized the political legitimacy of the Palestinian resistance. This is not about your haughty judgements, at all. That is the point. I don't want you to pronouce that Hamas is good or bad. Think what you like.

I am affirming that Hamas is the legitimate, and democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people. Your entire line tries to side-step this fact, and only adds credibility to the preception that the blockade and the US backed Fatah coup against the elected government are justified.

At this point in time, given that Hamas is the democratically elected government of the Palestinian people, and the Palestinian people are under assault, obstensibly to attack "terrorist infrastruture" (actually the offices and security facilities of legitimate government of Palestinians), its unfortunate, but true that standing with Palestinians means standing by the democratic process they embarked on and completed, and the government they elected.

It does not mean further mystifying the situation by saying the Palestinians have "no leadership", or that the "civil war" between Hamas and Fatah, is something that both parties have mutual responsibility for, when in fact the power struggle results from the direct attempt to undermine the legitimate government of the Palestinian people by application of economic sanctions, and the illegal siezure of administrative power by Mamoud Abbas, and the attempt by Fatah to enforce that siezure of power by force, approved of by the United States, and backed up with direct infusions of military aid.

Those are the facts. Sorry if they are inconvenient. All of that must be opposed, regardless if Hamas is "good" or not. At this point in time standing with the Palestinian people, includes most definitely standing by Hamas, and by extension the democratic processes of the Palestinians, and their right to self-determination, which are yet again under attack by Israel and its backers.

[url=http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/20081228.html][u]The Muslim Canadian Congress takes a typically treacherous position.[/u][/url]

[IMG]http://i38.tinypic.com/1r9lpy.gif[/IMG]

The Toronto demo was around 800 or so which is quite large when you consider the short notice and the fact that we are in the middle of holidays. There were about a dozen JDL counterprotesters across the street.

http://watch.ctv.ca/news/clip124801#clip124801

 Unfortunately, CTV reports this as being a Palestinian demo vs an Israeli demo despite the fact that there were probably more Jews in the Gaza solidarity demo than there were in the JDL demo. 

MCC calls for end to bombing
Condemns Hamas for inciting hostilities

TORONTO - The Muslim Canadian Congress (MCC) has expressed alarm at the
on-going Israeli attacks on Gaza and has asked the international community to
intervene and bring about an immediate ceasefire. In a statement, the MCC
condemned the disproportionate response by the IDF to the rocket attacks by
Hamas, leading to hundreds of casualties.

The MCC statement also condemned Hamas for treating the Palestinian people as
human-bait in a ploy to provoke Israel into launching an all-out attack on Gaza.
In censuring Hamas, the MCC said, the Islamist group had deliberately put the
civilian population of Gaza in danger as it played the role of Iran's agent
provocateur in the region......"

http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/20081228.html

Has the NDP made any statements on these recent crimes against humanity?

Has the Liberal Party?

aka Mycroft wrote:

The Toronto demo was around 800 or so which is quite large when you consider the short notice and the fact that we are in the middle of holidays. There were about a dozen JDL counterprotesters across the street.

http://watch.ctv.ca/news/clip124801#clip124801

Unfortunately, CTV reports this as being a Palestinian demo vs an Israeli demo despite the fact that there were probably more Jews in the Gaza solidarity demo than there were in the JDL demo. 

Looking at the Wikipedia article on JDL, I read that it is in fact a "violent extremist organization", a characterization given by none other than the FBI. It is also mentioned that JDL members have been involved in terrorism and have fundraised for the terrorist organisation Kahane Chai.

In the light of the above, I must say that presenting the JDL demo as an "Israeli" demo is primarily an insult to honest Israelis. Also, that counting these thugs as the "pro-Israeli equivalent" of the demonstrators against the aggression in Gaza is an insult to any democratic citizen...

Careful Frustrated Mess, I got my pee pee slapped for referencing good guys and bad guys in one of my posts- careful my friend :)

I think when those battles were going on a few months (year?) ago Israel thought they would plow over Hamas or Palastine defenses (not sure the correct term). Israel and the rest of the world was surprised when Israel got a wake up call and their forces were slowed down or even stopped. BIG bloody nose.

No one expected that. I think it embarassed the hell out of them and now they aren't taking any chances and want some good ol'revenge to make uyp for the face they lost.

Hamas was democratically elected wasn't it? Like legitimately voted in? I think  NATO should put a stop to Israel attacking a democracy, how come the states aren't condeming their actions?

Hamas was a hell of a lot more democratically elected that George Bush was!

Here is a surprisingly good article from the Gazette (CanWest rag) about the demonstration and people's motivations for attending: http://www.montrealgazette.com/Angry+Montrealers+take+streets/1122092/st...

Sorry for the long link - alas I see NOTHING on my software about formatting links.

Just saw the headline "Germany's Merkel blames Hamas". Cripes.

Lagatta, type in a word you want to link. Then use your mouse to highlight it. When highlighted, the following image becomes visibile above the smiley face below the text entry window: Click that and then paste your link into the dialog that pops up.