Gaza, Israel (III)

If it was, it wasn't necessary.

Lowenstein's If Hamas Did Not Exist is some piece of writing alright. And if Hamas did not fire the rockets it would make perfect sense that another entity would. The PTB have become indeed become addicted to the tactic of committing terrorist acts and then blaming it on their opponent or whoever they wish to ethnically cleanse from the land or otherwise steal resources from. These guys actually don't have any new ideas.

It would make a lot more sense to John Q if it more were generally known that[u] [url=http://umkahlil.blogspot.com/2006/06/sderot-built-on-ashes-of-ethnically... (was) Built on Ashes of Ethnically Cleanses and Defaced Najd. Sderot was settled by Jews in 1951. According to Walid Khalidi in All That Remains . . . Najd's Palestinian villagers, approximately 620 in 1945, were expelled on 13 May 1948, before Israel was declared a state . . . Palestinian Arabs own 12,699 dunums in Najd although Israel refuses to honor their rights to their personal property . . . in 1945 Jews owned 495 dunums of land in Najd and public lands consisted of 412 dunums."[/u][/url]

But don't expect to learn that from controlled media while their  descendents are being massacred by Israelis in Gazan refugee camps right now especially while the Mayor of New York City is visiting the beleaguered residents of Sderot for the purpose of expressing his solidarity. Afterward he visited with some of the immigrants from New York who now live there. 

And I'm having trouble getting links to format properly even though I've done it without difficulty before. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SCC wrote:

Pretty powerful stuff by the rabbi. I don't believe in any deity, but maybe religious voices are those that need to speak up about the Middle East since a lot of the intransigent and maximalist rhetoric about beating each other into a pulp has taken on religious tones.

Yes, except the Rabbi is continuing to propogate the myth that somehow the rockets are launched "just because," as if Israel, is and always has just been some kind of normal country existing in the region minding its business, until tha Arabs suddenly attacked it for no reason.

Of course, "we" will say "the Arabs" should just say "lets bygones be bygones", ignoring the fact that it is not "bygone" at all. Israel continues to occupy and inflict martial law on a civilian population, as it has done so since 1967.

Martial law and occupation are violence, in and of themselves. The Palestinian violence is in reaction to the persistence of imposition of the military forces of Israel upon them, and Israel will bare the responsibility of being the cause of that violence until it quits occupying Palestinian territory.

Once that is done, then the Rabbi can talk about "No country in the world is going to ignore the provocation of rockets being launched from neighbouring territory day after day."

The reality is that: "No people in the world is going to ignore the provocation of occupation and subjugation to martial law from neighbouring territory day after day."

Cueball, you didn't read the rabbi's article, did you?

You quote only from his intro, not from his attempt to develop proposals to start turning around the Israeli policies of the past decades.

Why not?

Maybe that would contradict the position that everyone in the West just hates the Palestinians and the mainstream media only prints brainwashing?

 

Quote:

"
Yet Israel, as the militarily superior power, ought to take the first steps:
implementing a massive Marshall Plan in Gaza and in the West Bank to end
poverty and unemployment, rebuild infrastructure and encourage investment;
dismantle the settlements or make settlers become citizens of a Palestinian
state; accept 30,000 Palestinian refugees annually back into Israel for the
next 30 years, apologise for its role in the 1948 expulsions and offer to
co-ordinate a worldwide compensation effort for all that Palestinians lost
during the Occupation; and recognise a Palestinian state within borders
already defined by the Geneva Accord of 2003."

When did you ever read a Western leader or mainstream commentator  say that?

 

Many times. I have been reading Michael Lerner for years. I wouldn't qualify him as a Western leader nor is he considered mainstream in the US, where his ideas rarely appear outside of Tikkun. Such views are regular fair in the European press.

Not sure what you are getting at with that comment. Anyway. I prefer Ran Hacohen, frankly.

And this is just dumb:

Quote:

Maybe that would contradict the position that everyone in the West just hates the Palestinians and the mainstream media only prints brainwashing?

The only solution, is a unified binational state, imo. I disagree with Lerner on several points. To be clear, Lerner is basically reiterating the principles of the Taba round of negotiations between Ehud Barak and Yasser Arafat during the failed Oslo process.

Frustrated Mess wrote:

Sunday 28 December

I
wake up at 7am after an Israeli F-16 attack. (...) They targeted a pharmacy. I still can't believe it.(...)

Hmmm... you mean a "Hamas infrastructure"? This is how our yellow-bellied media hacks have proudly reported this attack. "Droit devant" blared La PRESSE this morning on page 1, using an "action" photograph that could only have come from Israeli Forces..

It was just plain incoherant.

___________________________________________________________

"watching the tide roll away"

Appologies, double post.

Quote:

After all the posts, after all the resources presented, Realigned
still has no fucking clue. Not surprising, really. This is someone who
thinks Afghanistan is a noble mission. If you believe that, you have to
believe Israel is in the right.

"Dudes" in Israel are engaged in a genocidal attack on a defenseless
people. End of story. "Dudes" firing rockets have nothing to do with it.

If you believe that no side is a "good guy", its clear why you're so easily duped into going to Afghanistan.

Jingles dude, you're killing me!

Somehow I don't think I'll be able to make a happy birthday post on
rabble without someone trying to use my personal opinions or even just
my career  against me huh?

Happy birthJingles!

*Ya sure happy birthday but how many birthdays are UNHAPY because of your illegal and unjust occupation of AFGHANISTAN*

Gotta make sure to throw the Afghanistan in there huh? The A-bomb as
my wife calls it (She doesn't complain when it gets me out of speeding
tickets though) That's okay, I'm happy I can help you vent Jingles.
Anytime I make a post please feel free to start off by expresing your
views on Afghanistan and my involvement in it regardless if I'm talking
about the price of eggs in new york or what music I'm listening to.

About the Israel situation, I always sit back and wonder at the
"facts" I'm seeing presented. People get their news from bias Media.
(Or better yet, youtube)

It's either Pro Israel and we see stories showing brave citizen
soldiers cleaning up debris from evil Palistine rocket attacks in the
middle of the night and how they live in fear every day or...

It's brave palastine peoples sifting through the rubble of crushed
buildings caused from Israelie missle strikes crying "we just want
peace" but evil UA (Uh I mean Israel) won't leave them alone.

Kinda reminds me of a quote from a video game I play. 'Blessed is the mind too small for doubt'

I have no fucking clue but clearly you have all the answers, hey
I'll buy that.  You should make a blog and invite world leaders to sign
up for it =)

Me in my dumb ignorance of all things worldly, still believe both
sides have instigators who don't give a shit about peace. THOSE people
need tbe dealt with.  We need to identify the elements that are ruining
our chances for peace.

If I had a 'side' to pick I'd be with Palistine. The crap every day
citizens have to deal with seems to be just brutal. Israel isn't
winning their hearts and minds in any respect and they wonder where the
hostility is coming from. During one interview someone had a great
point. 

Quote:

"I am a 45 year old family man who has traveled this way for 20
years and here I am being stopped and held up for 3 hours by an 18 year
old israelie army private who is having a bad day and pissed off their
pulling check point duty"

I'd be pissed off too.  Still the media isn't helping. I remember
seeing video footage of a young ashen coloured palastine boy dead being
held in the arms of a crying father.  Very sad. Then I saw an article
online about that sad sad scene. That poor kids body was used
constantly throughout the day at various spots all over the city by no
less than 4 family members. Some how the same child kept dying all over
the city, over the span of 8 or 9 hours.

Horrible things are happening but the media on both sides are guilty
of both making  things up and making true things more horrendus.

I wonder how someone can get all their information from the media and be so sure of who's right and who's wrong.

 

On another note,

I just spent a day in some great company. A woman who had just
completed her masters in New York City who was heading back home to
Israel, an Egyptian man who was vacationing with his family and a young
man from Palistine who was heading to england to work and a rich
diplomat from Nigeria (who I owe a great deal to for helping me out and
showing kindness out of the blue).  It was surprising to hear their
views on what was going on in the world (especially Israel/Gaza). What
was most refreshing was that all parties weren't afraid to admit the
shortcomings of their own countries and admit their not perfect. Too
bad we couldn't see that on a larger scale.

 

Terrorist attack on Gaza raw film footage - Warning: horrific scenes of violence For mature viewers only

Dark and cold Gaza waits for help as Israel steps up war

Realigned wrote:

If you really wonder how Aghan's feel why don't you go to Afghanistan and ask them? I can putu in touch with a few NGO groups, just PM me.

There is a former citizen of Afghanistan right here in my hometown in Northern Ontario. He came here in the 1980s. He told me that no country has a right to occupy his homeland, including the U.S. military and its colonial lackey sidekicks helping out with the phony-baloney "war on terror" What do you you think of that?

Realigned][quote wrote:

If I had a 'side' to pick I'd be with Palistine. The crap every day citizens have to deal with seems to be just brutal. Israel isn't winning their hearts and minds in any respect and they wonder where the hostility is coming from. During one interview someone had a great point. 

Quote:

"I am a 45 year old family man who has traveled this way for 20 years and here I am being stopped and held up for 3 hours by an 18 year old israelie army private who is having a bad day and pissed off their pulling check point duty"

I'd be pissed off too.  Still the media isn't helping. I remember seeing video footage of a young ashen coloured palastine boy dead being held in the arms of a crying father.  Very sad. Then I saw an article online about that sad sad scene. That poor kids body was used constantly throughout the day at various spots all over the city by no less than 4 family members. Some how the same child kept dying all over the city, over the span of 8 or 9 hours.

 

Well, that is what happens when you read the "Little Green Goofball" blog. You spend hours going over some piece of footage that "might" indicate that someone is manipulating the media. Rather than do that, you could simply look at Fidel's footage from information clearing house, posted above twice, send that along the the "Little Green Goofballs" site, with a note asking them to show how it was faked.

ROFL. What is "democratic" about imposing martial law on a population of 4 million people for 40 years?

Let me know.

Objective Observer wrote:

 Democracies only go to war reluctantly, unlike hamas, which was firing rockets into Israel and killing babies. Israel had to do something. No country would allow Hamas to continue its actions.

Still, Israel has a duty to ensure that only the minimum amount of force that is required to accomplish its mission is used. So far I think that's what they've been doing.

For this in particular I think you deserve to be kicked out of the forum.

How about responding to some people who have made detailed criticisms about your conveniently benign belief that all Israel wants is to protect itself from rocket attacks.

Reminder/summary of what is required for Israel not to attack Palestininas and their chosen goivernments be they Fatah or Hamas:

 1.] Accept Israels terms of how much land and resources they want, and where Palestinians can go, etc.

2.] Accept Israel's military imposition of their solutions.

When Palestinians do not accept this and fight back people like you propagandize purely about what the Palestinians do. No context about what else they could do.

The nerve of your "Objective Observor" moniker is so over the top it's funny... at least if one can still appreciate gallows humour.

 

"Still, Israel has a duty to ensure that only the minimum amount of force that is required to accomplish its mission is used. So far I think that's what they've been doing."

That is especially barbarous.

But its also true. Problem is that you are conveniently deluded about what Israel's mission is. See the list above.

I suppose you could say it is the minimum amount of force to accomplish the mission: that mission being a final solution in increments.

Yes, well, Israel assassinated the the moderate leadership of Hamas, which advocated accepting the two state solution "provisionally" based on a long term "ceasefire". Democratic process and all that. Then they had the democratic process, Hamas won, and this is the result.

SCC wrote:

I dunno Cueball, Taba didn't sound half bad to me. It looked like a good start.

As for a unified state, I have no idea what that means or how to get there. They can't even get themselves to a simple ceasefire. Maybe concentrating on that first is more important.

Utopias are nice, but there is a reason they are called utopias: they don't exist in the real world of diplomacy.

I prefer focussing on the achievable. I leave utopias to poets.

Even Taba or the Saudi peace plan or the UN road map right now sound pretty far off or utopian. How about figuring out how to bring a ceasefire about? Have to start somewhere.

 

 

Quote:

Q: Under what conditions would Hamas halt its armed struggle?

Abu Shanab: If the Israelis are willing to fully withdraw from the 1967 occupied territories and they present a timetable for doing so. That's been our condition since Oslo. But in the intervening nine years, the Israelis have shown no such willingness. Instead, they've continued to expand their settlements.

Q: So we're really just talking about implementing U.N. Security Council Resolution 242?

Abu Shanab: Yes.

[SNIP] 

Q: In terms though of dealing with their fears, what Israeli Jews are afraid of is that at some point the Arabs will grow to a majority in Israel and then vote to change the nature of the state in a way that puts Jews at risk.

Abu Shanab: If there is a willingness to live in peace, then the Israelis and Palestinians will jointly find a better way of living together. And if we live together, demographics doesn't have to be a problem. Demographically, Israelis are already outnumbered by Arabs in this part of the world, but there is nothing to prevent them from living their lives as Jews, just as Arabs can live as Muslims. If we treat people as human beings rather than as merely members of particular religions, we can solve the problem.

[SNIP]

Q: Which ideally would be neither a Jewish nor an Islamic state.

Abu Shanab: No, let's speak about a democratic state, because an Islamic state is compatible with democracy. In this way, we see the Israelis as part of this community, if they want to live as equals. But if they want to maintain apartheid, they will never join this community. This is the critical issue for the Israelis and the Zionist movement, as well as for those in the West who support this state. Now the Israelis see themselves as Westerners in an Eastern area, and they live here as strangers.

Assassinated 21 August 2003

Where to start, you ask?

How about stopping Israel for assassinating moderate Palestinian leadership figures by cutting off aid to the IDF? That is the only way anything is going to happen. Its not just about "them" it's about our support for Israel that feeds the Israeli war economy, which is entirely crisis dependent. 

 

Oh drat, I missed the Finnerty/Khadir interview. Hope I can hear it or find a transcript. I'll ask Khadir.

You forgot the Green Party:

http://www.greenparty.ca/en/media-release/2008-12-31/green-party-calls-u...

 

 

Israeli collaborator recruiter punked

 Israel has dropped millions of flyers on the occupied, besieged Gaza Strip.

One such flyer, an image of which was sent to The Electronic Intifada,
seeks to recruit Palestinian collaborators. Signed by the "Israel
Defense Forces command," and addressed to the "the residents of the
Gaza Strip," the flyer states: "You hold the responsibility for your
own fate!" It invites Palestinians to call or email the Israeli army
"to inform us about the location of rocket launching sites and the
terrorist gangs that made you hostages of their actions." Because
collaboration with an occupier is universally viewed as one of the
worst forms of betrayal, the flyer warns "For your own safety, please
maintain secrecy when you call us."

EI decided to call the number provided. What follows is a translation
of the Arabic conversation between an EI editor and an Israeli officer
who identifed himself using the Arabic name "Abu Ibrahim."

Quote:

EI: Hello

Israeli officer: Hello

EI: How are you?

Israeli officer: Praise be to God, who am I talking to?

EI: You are speaking to Ahmad.

Israeli officer: Welcome Ahmad.

EI: How are you, what is your name?

Israeli officer: I'm Abu Ibrahim, sir. Where are you from Ahmad?

EI: I'm from Gaza

Israeli officer: Where in Gaza, my brother?

EI: We'll talk about that in a minute, but I saw one of the flyers you dropped on Gaza.

Israeli officer: Oh yes that's right ...

EI: I have some information for you on members of terrorist groups that are in Gaza.

Israeli officer: Oh I hope so...

EI: We're on the same side against terrorism ... I have names for you too, if that will help you at all.

Israeli officer: Of course that will be helpful.

EI: You don't know what the terrorists are doing here in Gaza and we want to be saved from them ...

Israeli officer: Yes, I think everyone should do exactly what you're doing because we're all fed up with them. All they do to us is bad things.

EI: Exactly, the people in Gaza feels the same but the world can't hear our voice.

Israeli officer: Oh they will hear sir. You know
they've [people of Gaza] started to phone us and ask for help, and ask
us what they should do, and we've helped a lot of them. They thanked us
for that and we want to help more people.

EI: But you know the terrorist groups are all over the
Strip. I mean there's no place in the Strip where there aren't
terrorists. They're all over the place.

Israeli officer: You just wait. We'll get to them, you'll see.

EI: But as you know, it's not easy for one to talk from Gaza, to give you information, it's not an easy thing.

Israeli officer: Look, firstly it's not easy, second
thing, we've got other ways to reach you, very good ways not on this
line and in the end your assistance to us will end up helping you too.
Every person who doesn't have to be hurt in Gaza helps us and helps
you. We benefit and you benefit. We want to destroy this Hamas
leadership who are hiding, afraid for their lives. They are hiding and
others are being killed because of them. What are we fighting eachother
for? Over nothing!

EI: Ok, let's talk ... let me give you some of the information and then we'll talk some more. Do you have a pen?

Israeli officer: Yes. I have a pen and I'm writing.

EI I want to give you names of the biggest terrorist organizations, not just in Gaza, but in all Palestine.

Israeli officer: Ok, let's see

EI: Ok, the first one ...

Israeli officer: You mean to tell me they're all from Hamas?

EI: All of them are people ... you'll see. The first one, his name is Ehud Barak [Israeli minister of defense].

Israeli officer: Ehud Barak? By God there's no one like you ...

EI: Second, Gabi Ashkenazi [Israeli army chief of staff]

Israeli officer: Do you know him?

EI: Of course. The third one is...

Israeli officer: Wait a minute, one at a time ...

EI: No write it down, I don't have time. The third one is called Ehud Olmert [Israeli prime minister].

Israeli officer: Look, just a minute ...

EI: You think that terrorists are only men? There are
also women. Terrorist organizations have women too. The fourth is Tzipi
Livni [Israeli foreign minister].

Israeli officer: First, I see that you're very clever and very experienced and you should ...

EI: And then the fifth's name is Yuval Diskin [head of
Israel's "Shin Bet" death squads]. Write it down and record it my
beloved. These are the names of the biggest terrorist leaders in the
whole of Palestine and in the whole of the Middle East.

Israeli officer: You know what I think? I think you're not from the Strip.

EI: Aaaah. You think I'm not from the strip? But you take information on terrorists from any place right?

Israeli officer: Now you're not benefiting at all.
You're not helping yourself and you're not helping anyone else. If you
were really from the Strip ...

EI: Didn't I just tell you that there were a number of
terrorists in the strip? Record it. There's a group of terrorists.
They're the biggest terrorists in the world. They call themselves the
"Israeli Defense Force" but they're not defending anyone. They're a
terrorist gang.

Israeli officer: You know ...

EI: A terrorist, sectarian, racist gang.

Israeli officer: I just want to say a few words to you ...

EI: OK, talk, but I can't hear you very clearly because of the noise of the terrorists bombs and rockets ...

Israeli officer: Ah, terrorist bombs and rockets? I understand what you're getting at ...

EI: Let me ask you something, dear Abu Ibrahim ...

Israeli officer: Is there anything else, or is it just you who wants to talk?

EI: OK go ahead ...

Israeli officer: Oh it's my turn? Oh thanks there's no
one like you. Look sir, even if you weren't from the Strip, the thing
is you're still an Arab.

EI: Are you an Arab Abu Ibrahim?

Israeli officer: Me? No I'm not an Arab. I'm a Jew but I was born here.

EI: So what's your name?

Israeli officer: I'm Abu Ibrahim.

EI: So you don't want to give me your name?

Israeli officer: And you, you too don't want to ...

EI: As far as the Israelis are concerned all Arabs are called Ahmad or Muhammad so what's the difference?

Israeli officer: So you want to know my full name, if
I asked you your full name ... let me say a few words to you. Look, I'm
a Jew and I'm from the Israeli Defense Forces. But unlike you, my
great, great, great grandfathers were all born here, going back
thousands of years. We never left the country. You Palestinians have
never been a nation. The Palestinians settled here recently, only a
short time ago. What's that got to do with me?

EI: Ok, the person who wants to help the people of Gaza talks like that about the Palestinians? You deny their existence?

Israeli officer: Look, I'll tell you ...

EI: You really want to help the Palestinians and this is what you say?

Israeli officer: Of course ... I am also helping the
Arabs who live with us to get into Israel, you also ... Don't mind me
saying, but I'm sure now, from your accent, that you are not from the
Strip. You're not from Gaza. But that's OK. I'm prepared to talk to you.

EI: You know why I'm happy to talk to you? Because
every minute I waste your time, you ... I like to waste your time
because you're a member of the terrorist IDF.

Israeli officer: That's OK. You're not wasting my
time. I'm happy to talk to people like you. Why? Because you're in the
wrong but you don't know you're in the wrong. So if I talk to you it's
possible you'll start to understand your mistake.

EI: I don't want to waste any more of your time. Let me say something to you.

Israeli officer: By God you're a person I enjoy talking to.

EI: OK, your army that was defeated in Lebanon is also going to lose in Gaza.

Israeli officer: That's possible. If that's what you know, maybe you know what you're talking about.

EI: OK, farewell my beloved Abu Ibrahim.

Israeli officer: Maybe we'll see each other under better circumstances.

EI: Yes, I hope it will be at the International Court in The Hague.

Israeli officer: That's alright.

EI: Yes, go and find some collaborators somewhere else. You won't find any here.

Israeli officer: And in this you're also mistaken but that's OK ...

Jingles wrote:

Nice to see all our parties arriving at a consensus: It's the Palestinians fault.

Actually the Green's acknowledge both sides rather than just pointing the finger at one side.

Unionist wrote:

The Green statement is not only disgusting, in expressing no indignation whatsoever against the Israeli aggression; in presenting it as a "Israel vs. Hamas" violence; and in not actually calling on Israel to stop its attacks - it also reeks of Western superiority in telling the people of the region how they should re-organize their economies.

I put it on the same level as Harper and Ignatieff, except for the gratuitous dose of environmental lecturing.

 

And the view you most support is....?

Unionist wrote:

Phred wrote:

And the view you most support is....?

Well, I could refer you to my 20,000 or so posts on the subject, but instead, even though it wasn't "perfect", it would have been nice to see some write a letter like the one [url=http://rolandlefort.ndp.ca/page/3922][b][color=red]Alexa McDonough wrote on July 14, 2006[/color][/b][/url] denouncing the barbarous Israeli invasion of Lebanon. It didn't get much support from Jack Layton at the time, unfortunately, and has since been removed from the main NDP website. But even though the NDP's current statement is marginally better than the others (least of evils), Alexa's type would be welcome in the current situation. 

Right... BUT the current NDP view isn't so far off the Green's in that both parties condem Israel.

At least the Green tries to offer a soloution.. how you would be disgusted by that is beyond me.  So what if it involves a green tinge to it?  

Phred wrote:

At least the Green tries to offer a soloution.. how you would be disgusted by that is beyond me.  So what if it involves a green tinge to it?  

Do you have any appreciation for the notion of self-determination? Do you not think that's what the Palestinian people have been striving for? Do you really think Elizabeth May has superior intellectual capacity to those poor third world folks? Does the word "White Man's Burden" conjure up anything?

Unionist wrote:

Phred wrote:

At least the Green tries to offer a soloution.. how you would be disgusted by that is beyond me.  So what if it involves a green tinge to it?  

Do you have any appreciation for the notion of self-determination? Do you not think that's what the Palestinian people have been striving for? Do you really think Elizabeth May has superior intellectual capacity to those poor third world folks? Does the word "White Man's Burden" conjure up anything?

So the Green's offer a soloution to ultimately help the Palestinians to help themselves... and somehow this has become the white man's burden?

Don't get me wrong here. I'm neither pro-Israel or anti-Arab. Both sides have blood on their hands and I truly believe if religion wasn't in this grand equation, there would be no conflict in the first place!