Democratic Coalition ideas

madmax wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Sean, Why should the 62% majority back down to herr Steveler and his American style spending on all things war and economic madness in general?

What 62% majority? I fully expect the LPC not to back down but to join the Prime Minister in tax cuts, American Spending, and economic madness along with war.  Infact, we have seen a dramatic move on the LPC part to buy up the CPC realestate.  I expect the LPC to try to regain ground on the right with the intent to challenge the CPC directly on their turf.

And just look where shifting to the right has the Liberal Party sitting with popular support. They havent enjoyed as low a level of voter support in several decades. 

Canada's Republican Party wannabes led by Harper emptied their largest of all election campaign war chest and mustered 22% of registered voter support - not enough for even a legitimate phony majority. That rightwing coalition of Reform Party retreads, rightwing Liberals, and Mike Harris refugees are stranded - stuck in the mud - and still saddled with Brian Mulroney's rightwing legacy. Canadians dont trust the well-funded political right enough to hand them a phony majority.

I think Iggy is smart enough to know that continuing to prop up the Harpers as Dion did for two years will translate to record low support for the LPC. And I think Iggy may well realize that the shortest route to the PMO is through the 62% coalition.

Either way one or both of the big business parties will be shifting to the economic left. By how much and whether it will be enough to fool Canadians is anyone's guess.

Agreed Fidel but would add that the tax cut component needs to be in the list along with free money giveaways as totally useless. Tax cuts to consumers right now will not restore confidence. In fact if you make it clear that the feds have a jobs strategy that will renew more consumer confidence than extra money in their pockets they will feel the need to save.

Certainly, we need to total the amount of real stimulus and get that number out there and evaluate it as soon after the budget comes down as possible. The Cons also have a habit they learned from Liberals of re-announcing spending that was there previously and not spending money set aside only to claw it back later.

I still believe we needed to back away from the coalition idea when Dion faltered as a return to it now would be more credible for us.

I admit I have two agendas here: one I would like to see the Cons out of power but also I am concerned about the politics and the relevance of the NDP since I do not consider the Liberals progressive partners in even a medium never mind long term. The NDP has to always be at the edge of these discussions as  this is the only party reliably representing working and vulnerable people.

the only opinion poll that counts is on election day, we just had an election, the results of that election must recieve their full due process otherwise all future elections are meaningless and democracy in canada is dead, we have yet to have a government based on that last election. sean, you need a basic politics course if you want to discuss the issues, canadians vote for their local m.p. -it is each m.p. or thier party that decides with their conscience what to do till the next election, its called representive democracy, as opposed to the ariopagitica of ancient athens where each citizen ,no slaves or servants, went to the legislature to vote: direct democracy, (they also invented the black ball system, a history lesson harper will soon never forget)- we do't need to vote for a coalition or against, in fact it was harper that called the election address this point! i double dare ya!, said he couldn't work with any of the oposition asking for a majority- he lost the election based on his own framing of the context and didn't even deserve to present another thrown speech, but he was making nice so they let that thrown speech pass- his financial statement showed his true colours, so he's out- full stop. if you want to respond deal with these facts, and this chain of logic and reasoning, otherwise you're just wasting your breath- its just subversive distraction propaganda tactics and i'm not easily distracted, certainly not by b.s.- it is not the details of a budget that is being prejudged, sean, but the trust and confidence required to carry that budget forward  faithfully and competantly, harper has lost that trust- regardles of whats in the budget, if its good, the best ideas will be taken up by iggy, that's why we idealy have elections every four years or so, to trust the system to work things out -we don't vote for a p.m. directly, so get over that aspect of our democracy-i'm writing with all potential and actual readers in mind, not just the other writiers here and whether you or anyone else is a plant or not is your personal choose and right, freedom of expression and association-the third option is 'closet' plant/hack, one who doesn't even know the full implications of their actions, repressesed, subconscious, flawed reasoning faculty or just afraid to admit the truth and come out into the open, and that too is anyone's right, i'm not trying to 'out' anyone just deal with the facts and their implications for my concerns, which are democratic government and due process-inseperable really, so whatever words you want- if you really are a progressive democrat, look closely at the conservatives and what they have done, thats your choice: are you with them or against them- don't let them destroy the country by default because the liberals, ndp or a legal working cooperation of minority parties in the house aren't perfect, they are guareenteed to fuck things up drastically less than this neofascist religious- fundamentalist closet-racist/ bigotted oil-barron puppet, were you around during harris and mulroney and the fall out from their regeimes, the conservative party was reduced to 2 members of parliament for good reason -it was torn assunder and the wounds have yet been fully healed, many conservatives joined the liberal party, joe clack, david orchard, brisson and many others, the consevatives cooked up this scam with the green party( though many may be sincere tree huggers, just a bit niaeve-like catholics-many sincerely thought the crusades and the inquisition- torture were good ideas, and will still defend that history) because the division in the conservative ranks can not be healed, mulroney was/is too toxic , and so they are trying with some success to divide the centre/left and far left, or at least bleed some of it off- and so harper is just as toxic, it just takes awhile for things to sink in, not everyone is equiped with such long range foresight- brevity denudes tact and diplomancy so if you're offended by my comments, don't take it personally, if you can't see how much damage these neo cons have done to the country- to the world, how much more they threaten to do- many of them must be sociopaths because they only seem to care about their personal greed- and if you're a liberal or new democrat and /or a compasionate human being, and can't see the very real threat and danger of this then hurting some people feelings is called for- wake up before things get worse-stop getting lost in the minutiae- regarding stimulists and cautionists about spending, does anyone think the second world war spending was balanced, that was the only thing that ended a decade long depression, it was much longer and worse in euope, do you have wheel-barrel for the cash to buy a loaf of bread, if the neocons are allowed to continue to govern- we would still be in that depression if it were not for wild spending and more wild spending to rebuild europe and japan, bush admitted today that the tarp and all the other bailout spending, as repugnant as they are were trying to prevent a furthering of the melt-down that would be "much worse than the last depression" in bush's own words today, and there's no guarentee thats been achieved yet, it all may still collapse completely resulting in a depression much greater than the 1930's depression, much scarier and spending is the only way out, only we'll build greener technologies and infrastructure as well as tradition green neutral  stuff, instead of guns and tanks, which paved the way for 50 years of prosperity and war- and if you listen to any of these neo-cons at all, in disguise, in the open or in the closet, then we're in really big trouble this time, and the survivalists and the michigan militia(oklahoma)will be the only one's ready for it - i wish i were exagerating or wrong- wake up people, and the harper tories are determined to take us down the same road bush went down, destroying the country for personal profit- no exageration or margin for error- iggy will get rid of harper immediately- again , for those of you who missed this the first time, and aren't in that riding, from a distinguished m.p. (and a personal child hood hero of mine though i'm from ontario- thats a clue as to his/her identity), who would't say such things publicly without the support of his/her colleagues, harper is finished:

"A Prime Minister sets the tone of the House of Commons. Respect gets respect. Disrespect breeds disrespect. The Prime Minister is now fighting to stay on to win a battle that need never have been fought in the first place. To preside over a Parliament whose dynamics, whose very relationships, he has poisoned and destroyed. It’s too late. This Parliament cannot work with this Prime Minister. All of us have heard the angry voices every day in the House of Commons, and now across the country. Shout and scream versus shout and scream.

Mr. Harper has scorched the earth of civility and trust for all of us. For him, it is over. He cannot be trusted. He cannot repair what is irreparable.

We need a new Prime Minister.

That is what I believe.

In the next days and weeks, we will be preparing ourselves for the return of Parliament on January 26th with Michael as our leader. It is our job to provide to Canadians the best that is in us whether in opposition or in government. That is what we will endeavour to do."

don't mistake formal politeness and cordial caution as indecisiveness, no one in the opposition trusts harper reardless of how good the budget will be, none of the opposition will support it, they will leave the door open for him, and the rest of the conservative to contribute to the coalition( but they have more important things to decide, how quickly to get rid of harper clemnt and flarehty, stackwell would make a better leader than harper, so his days as prime minister are over, and hopefully for the good of the conservative party and the country, leader of the conservtive party as well, and if they're smart they get rid of flaherty and clement as well, they probably lured harper further astray than he was already-its over, get used to it- new topic for this discussion thread, what should the coalition do first, or who's going to one of iggy's town hall meetings. will obama meet with harper before he's out just to rub salt in his wounds for the nafta sabotage leak, or will he wait to talk to the next p.m. iggy, he's already meeting with the mexican president, whats he waiting for to meet the canadian p.m. even obama knows harper is out- and that probably wasn't leaked to the press by a harper aid- but who knows

a letter from a coalition m.p. to his/her constituents  resent /forwarded to me recently-January 8, 2009 4:43:35 PM EST (CA),reaffirming its contents , maybe you'll read this! spector of doom

“I had originally drafted this letter after the events of last week.  The events of this week have also been of great impact to Canadians so I will try to speak to them as well.

We now have a new Liberal Party leader, Michael Ignatieff.  I support Michael and I support the process by which he was chosen as our leader.  It is time for us to present to Canadians a permanent leader.  Our economic situation as a country is such that world governments will be taking important decisions in the next months.  The Harper Government, to say the least, has not responded to the global crisis in any real way.  It is our job as the principal opposition party to push the Government to do more, and to do what is necessary.  It is also our job, in this minority situation, to present to the public a party that is ready and able to govern.  That requires a permanent leader who will plan and act like a permanent leader, and who is seen by Canadians as the permanent leader.

 

Michael has the overwhelming support of Liberal Caucus and of members across the country.  I look forward to the important weeks and months ahead.

I would also like to say a few words about Stéphane Dion.  This has not been an easy last two years for him or for the Party.  No one in Canadian political history has had to deal with the kind of abuse that Mr. Harper rained on Stéphane.  But he hung in there and kept to those things he believed.  In hockey, they say the “tough guys” are those who deliver thunderous bodychecks to their opponents.  But to me, it’s easy to deliver the checks.  The real “tough guys” are those who are willing to take a check to “make a play” – to make a pass to set up a goal.  Those who are willing to accept whatever the punishment in order to achieve the bigger goal.

 

And that is Stéphane.  He is as tough as they come.  He went into politics not to get his name in the papers but because he thought those things he believed in most could be best pursued through politics.  Now he is leaving as party leader, the public having delivered the message that he didn’t represent what they wanted as a Prime Minister but also, after all the blows, with his reputation for honesty, decency and intelligence absolutely intact, if not enhanced.  A very significant achievement.

 

Now to last week.  Let me try to tell you what I think –    

 

This is a time when we face the most serious economic crisis since the 1930s.  It is a time when as Canadians, as a world, as Parliamentarians, we know we need each other.  We know we need to come together.

After the Speech from the Throne on November 19th, things began promisingly.  All parties, knowing the expectations of Canadians, talked of working more cooperatively.  There had been enough bad experiences in the past that MPs couldn’t be anything but tentative about this, still the words were there.

 

Mr. Flaherty’s Economic Update, however, turned out to be fundamentally, economically, distressingly inadequate.  It did not reflect the dimensions of our problem.  Other countries were acting seriously and determinedly.  We were not.

All that would have been bad enough, but there was something more.  Again, this was a time to work together.  There was just one thing to focus on – the economy; people’s jobs; the well-being of families.  Nothing else mattered.  We knew that.  Everyone knew that.  But Mr. Harper just couldn’t resist.  He chose to do what he had done before, but never so outrageously as this time.  It was the very wrong moment to do the very wrong thing.

 

He decided as part of the Economic Update that there should be the elimination of public support for political parties.  He argued that everyone needed to tighten their belts, and politicians should take the lead and set an example.  What could be wrong about that?  Except, of course, the impact of cuts like this relative to the economic crisis was practically zero; and further, the impact of this on what was his real intention would be anything but “practically zero.”

 

Mr. Harper knew that this would mean all the Opposition Parties and any fledgling party such as the Greens would be affected far more than the Conservatives, and that in the next few elections at least (and with minority governments these elections happen more often), these parties would have a far harder time competing and potentially winning, which real and fair competition is the basis of our democratic system.  Further, that this action, so wrong on its own, was doubly, triply wrong in the context of an economic crisis where everyone needs to work together.  Where everyone needs each other.  Where everyone needs to trust each other and focus on just one thing: the economy.

 

This was Mr. Harper at his absolute worst (one would hope) doing something so completely so utterly political, so completely so utterly partisan and non-democratic, so fundamentally, so disturbingly, so outrageously wrong.

It was at this point, after knowing finally and forever there was no way of working with Mr. Harper,  that the Opposition Parties began talking seriously about whether we could work with each other.

 

Coalition governments are not what Canadians are used to, and that makes Canadians anxious and uncertain.  That is understandable.  But coalitions are not at all uncommon in other very successful, very stable Western democracies – e.g. Germany, Netherlands, Belgium. And given the fact that we have four parties represented in the federal House of Commons and both the Liberals and Conservatives are strong enough to elect many Members (unlike a few years ago when the Conservatives were not), minority governments are now more likely, even probable.  For a party to govern, it requires the support of one or more other parties, not necessarily under a formal agreement as would be the case with a Liberal-NDP Coalition, but with other-party, often Bloc, support nonetheless.  That was what happened with Mr. Martin’s Government.  That has been the case with Mr. Harper’s.

 

As we go into the next few difficult weeks, let’s keep these things in mind:

 

First, this would be a Liberal-NDP Coalition, led by the Liberals with a Liberal Prime Minister, where the Finance Minister would come from the Liberal Party, where 18 of the 24 Cabinet Ministers would be Liberals and 6 would come from the NDP.  This is NOT a Liberal-NDP-Bloc Quebecois Coalition.  The Bloc is NOT part of the Government.  Their part of the agreement is ONLY to vote for the Coalition when there are confidence votes during the next 18 months.  They have no cabinet positions.  They have no say in the direction of the Government or Government policy any more than, as an opposition party, they do now.

 

Second, a coalition government, though unusual in Canadian experience, is absolutely contemplated under our Constitution.  In our Parliamentary System, a Government needs the support of the majority of the House of Commons.  With a majority government, that support need come only from all the members of the governing party.  With a minority government, there needs to be support from members of other parties as well.  Mr. Harper’s Conservatives have 143 seats out of 308 in the entire House of Commons.  A majority, therefore, is 155.  The Coalition represents 163 seats.  Just as it has been for the 141 years of our history, this Coalition would be a Government that represents the majority of the House of Commons. Again, different from what we are used to but entirely contemplated by our Constitution.

 

The last point –

I have said all that I’ve said above because the situation we have before us is not just about Canadians deciding between a Harper Government and a Liberal-led Liberal-NDP Coalition Government.

There is no doubt the Coalition has its work cut out for it.  Between now and when Parliament resumes on January 26th, it must demonstrate to Canadians that it can be a strong, stable, effective Government.  It needs to begin planning and setting out its priority directions like a Government. It needs to be ready to govern if it is called on to govern by the end of January.  That is its challenge.  That is its bargain with Canadians.

 

But Mr. Harper has a challenge too.  And his challenge, I believe, is even harder.    

 

A Prime Minister sets the tone of the House of Commons.  Respect gets respect.  Disrespect breeds disrespect.  The Prime Minister is now fighting to stay on to win a battle that need never have been fought in the first place.  To preside over a Parliament whose dynamics, whose very relationships, he has poisoned and destroyed.  It’s too late.  This Parliament cannot work with this Prime Minister.  All of us have heard the angry voices every day in the House of Commons, and now across the country.  Shout and scream versus shout and scream.

 

Mr. Harper has scorched the earth of civility and trust for all of us.  For him, it is over.  He cannot be trusted.  He cannot repair what is irreparable.

 

We need a new Prime Minister.

 

That is what I believe.

 

In the next days and weeks, we will be preparing ourselves for the return of Parliament on January 26th with Michael as our leader.  It is our job to provide to Canadians the best that is in us whether in opposition or in government.  That is what we will endeavour to do.

 

Thank you for letting me know what’s on your mind.  Thank you for the chance to let you know what’s on mine.

 

Sincerely,

 

Mr. Harper has scorched the earth of civility and trust for all of
us.  For him, it is over.  He cannot be trusted.  He cannot repair what
is irreparable.

 

We need a new Prime Minister.

 

That is what I believe.

it is not the details of a budget that is being prejudged, sean, but
the trust and confidence required to carry that budget forward 
faithfully and competantly, harper has lost that trust- regardles of
whats in the budget, if its good, the best ideas will be taken up by
iggy, that's why we idealy have elections every four years or so, to
trust the system to work things out -we don't vote for a p.m. directly,
so get over that aspect of our democracy-

Long thread - feel free to start a new one (on topic).