Cuban Politics

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Can you provide us with an example where travelers have been restricted from seeing the sights in Cuba.....

No but I can provide plenty of examples on how [b]Cubans[/b] are denied access to '[i]the sights[/i]'.

 They have their own so-called '[i]approved locations[/i]' where they are allowed to frolic and act in a communist party approved stylee (remember this is still the Caribbean-mon).

 Of course if you'd ever been there yourself you'd know that.

correction

forgive earlier typo:  I meant "personal data"

Ghislaine wrote:

I just cringe when anyone asks Fidel a question, because you just know he is not going to answer what was asked, but go on a rant about the US.

 So, Fidel, how many Cuban can

a) afford to travel abroad or

b) are allowed to travel abroad?

ps I am not asking about government-approved medical missions, etc. I am talking about voluntary, sight-seeing travel.

People in Cuba are poor and travel is expensive. But there are no laws in Cuba preventing people from emigrating or traveling anywhere in the world. The government tries very hard to allocate skilled labour,  and especially people with medical training where needed. It's actually easier for unskilled labourers to obtain a travel visa from the Cuban authorities than it is for doctors and engineers.

On the other hand, how many Canadians do you know of have actually  flown AC to St John's or Vancouver for a week's vacation or whatever in the last five years? I know of some who could have done just that, but I know many Canadians who have never actually been able to afford a travelling vacation, as in outside the country, in their entire lives. Not even the cheapy travel by old clunker method to, say, Orlando Fla or any of those nice beach resorts along the Eastern seaboard.

In addition, there was a Sunday CBC special featuring an interview with a famous Cuban dissident heading up the CIA and sponsored "Varela Project" Oswaldo Paya is a pawn of the CIA. He knew full well that carrying out US national agendas ie. helping the USSA to enforce Helms-Burton in Cuba is illegal and a seditious act. And so did US ambassador to Cuba James Cason realize he was betraying the so-called Cuban dissidents several years ago. The purpose of Varela was never to incite democratic change in Cuba. The CIA and dissidents understand that there is no momentum for counterrevolution in Cuba.

In the CBC doc you will hear about Paya's collecting signatures in support of a referendum to hold US-managed elections in Cuba, and that this is entirely the dissidents' doing. That is a lie, and I am ashamed of the CBC for broadcasting such a biased and shoddy piece of news journalism. Every Canadian should be ashamed of our national news corporation. It's obvious that the Ceeb is now a tool of American plutocracy.

We should also keep in mind that the US is currently censoring petitions to re-open the 9-11 investigation. Change.org is a farce, and US hypocrisy is safe from scrutiny and what are increasingly global demands for justice. There has to be a proper 9-11 investigation. The war on terror which involves the militaries of several countries hinges on an investigation that never took place.

A Cuban citizen who wants to travel abroad needs an official invitation from a person or institution outside Cuba. This letter of invitation is an official document delivered by a Cuban notary. The document mentions the identity of the person who invites the Cuban and the identity of the Cuban citizen who is invited. The “ inviter” declares that he /she will take full responsibility for the Cuban and agrees to pay the total costs of the invitation including travel costs, hotel or housing costs, medical insurance etc.

The letter of invitation is valid for one year starting from the issue date on the document. The cost of this document in Havana is 140 CUC, with special request form available at the Cuban embassies: costs about 200 US dollar – 200 euro.

Additional documents

Depending of the regulations of the country of the inviting person additional documents may be needed such as:

A medical examination certificate
A document stating that the inviting person earns sufficient income to support the invited Cuban.

In order to receive permission to leave the country, the Cuban citizen has to go to the Cuban Migration Services to apply for a travel permit (vigencia de viaje) and a Passport. Before departure the Cuban has to apply for a visa, which will be stuck in the Passport and has a validity period of 30 days. An extension of up to 90 days is possible.

http://www.havana-guide.com/havanajineteras.html

More of the real story:

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Taking up Raul Castro's invitation to speak their minds without fear of reprisal, more Cubans have begun publicly complaining and challenging government policies on everything from limits on Internet access to [b]travel restrictions. [/b]

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They asked Alarcon why many basic goods -- including toiletries and clothes -- are sold in convertible currency meant for tourists and foreigners, making some necessities virtually inaccessible to state employees paid in Cuban pesos worth much less. They complained about laws prohibiting citizens from entering state-run hotels without official permission. [b]They complained about limits on Internet access, and on rules that make getting a travel visa nearly impossible for most Cubans.[/b]

http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid52100.asp

oops

Ah, what does Canada’s immigration policy have to do with Cuba’s emigration policy?

old_bolshie wrote:

Take it from someone who's actually been to Cuba (not Fidel who hasn't)-

Most people I know who've been to Cuba snap a few photos while there. Here are just a few of my own(babbler123) from the first trip in 95. It's really easy to share your vacation photos of Cuba, ol' Bullshie. Where are your vacation photos, ol' Bullshie?

Kindrid wrote:

You are trying to compare a nation that out of pragmatic reality has to limit the amount of immigration to a nation that refuses to let its people freedom to travel abroad.

Are you talking about Cuba or the USA's denying its own citizens the right to travel to Cuba and judge things for themselves? Is it the multibillion dollar health insurance bureaucracy that's afraid Americans will see things they dont want them to see in Cuba? Is freely accessible education a terrifying idea to upper classes in the US?

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BTW, the United States offered to end embargo in exchange for improved human rights in Cuba. That offer has been on the table for years.

And what will the US offer do in exchange? Will the US release the five Cuban anti-terrorists held in US gulags?

Will the USSA offer to stop incarcerating black Americans at a rate that is six times that of apartheid South Africa?

Will the USSA pledge to end the mass murder in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Iraq Death Toll Rivals Rwanda Genocide, Cambodian Killing Fields

Will the USA finally put an end to what are conveyer belts of death in Texas, Alabama, Florida and so on? Will the US stop executing mentally handicapped Americans?

Will the USSA ever shut down its 730 plus military bases and occupations around the world? There are fewer countries without US military bases or occupations than with.

The USSA's war on democracy continues despite the end of cold war.

The Afghan, El Salvador, and Iraq ElectionsU.S. managed elections, with the threat of violence,
are called "democratic"by Edward S. Herman

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Castro’s Cuba has a long history of supporting terrorism including terrorism that resulted in the deaths of US citizens. The threat of Cuban exile groups has ceased for decades now.  

Philip Agee was a CIA specialist on Latin America  and a consciencious objector to his government's guilt in perpetrating terrorism all around Latin America including Cuba.

TERRORISM AND CIVIL SOCIETY: The Instruments of US Policy in Cuba by Philip Agee

More Cubans have died at the hands of US-Gusano Gladio terrorists than the reverse by a lot. As many Cubans have died at the hands of USSA-Gusano gladio terror as died on 9-11-01 in NYC. You're a terrible liar, kindrid.

“If You Harbor Terrorists, You Are a Terrorist" - Crazy Jorge de la Yayo to an American Legion audience

Kindrid wrote:

Many of the exile community that fought to overthrow Castro fought against Batista. They turned against Castro when Fidel refused to live up to his promise of free elections and ... bla-bla

US-managed elections were off after the attempted US military invasion of Cuba with the aid of the worms.

The USSA was not concerned about free elections all the while a US-backed mafia regime was in control in Havana. In fact, the Gusanos gave the CIA bad information that Cubans would participate in counterrevolution. They were badly mistaken and suffered a resounding, humiliating defeat. The CIA and US military has not tried to overthrow the revolution similarly in all this time - because they know the Cuban people are proud of the revolution and will fight the Gusanos and genetic baggage of the Cuban mafia plotting and scheming in Miami.

What kind of democratic country tries to assassinate another country's leader over 600 times?

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 Numbers of Cuban deaths attributed to the Castro regime range as high as 100 thousand.

Oh that's baloney. And former US state dept official William Blum had this to say about his own government:

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"From 1945 to the end of the century, the United States attempted to overthrow more than 40 foreign governments, and to crush more than 30 populist-nationalist movements struggling against intolerable regimes. . . . In the process, the US caused the end of life for several million people, and condemned many millions more to a life of agony and despair.”

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I doubt anti-Castro groups come close to that body count.

Over 3,000 Cubans. One former Cuban in the hire of the CIA even admitted proudly to murdering dozens of Cuban citizens by blowing up a passenger plane. And the US has provided sanctuary to Luis Posada Carilles for many years. Although Luis wouldnt be the first terrorist in the hire of the CIA. They basically reconstructed Himmler's SS to run the spy ops out of West Germany during the cold war. The likes of American Nazis Henry Ford, Prescott Bushler etc would have approved, we can be sure.

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BTW, the Cuban five are sitting in jail because they chased a threat that only exists in the minds of Fidel Castro. Groups that use violence to overthrow the Communist regime ceased to be active decades ago.

Oh that's baloney. They've bombed Cubana airliners and set fire to Cuban sugar crops, set off bombs in Cuban hotels, murdered Cuban fishermen in Mexican ports, you name it the US-Gusano gladios have done it all. You should read that article by former CIA official who was stationed in Latin America, Philip Agee. What his government pulled on innocent civilians, election rigging, overthrowing democratically elected leaders etc made him turn on his own government. And there were a few more CIA whistleblowers over the years, too.

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The 730 US bases is an absurd number.

That I'll let you look up for yourself. I cant do all your homework for you. Youre lazy as well as a bad liar, kindrid. ciao gringa

BTW, I checked your source for US bases in 700 nations.

The map of your link to the claim of 700 plus US bases overseas is flawed. It lists China and Russia as having US military personnel in those two countries. Yes, there is US military at the embassies. There might be a few military members doing special work like monitoring Russia’s nuclear weapons programs to ensure safety. The map lists many nations in Africa as having a US military presence. However, there is no significant US military presence in most of those nations. The one nation in Africa that has a small presence is Djibouti but the map show there is no US military presence in that nation. US bases in Peru?  There might be some radar installations performing counter drug operation but to claim the US has bases in Peru is absurd. Canada is also occupied by an overwhelming US military presence according to the map. Norway has a massive US military base on consisting of around 300 personnel providing logistical assistance to Norway. Therefore, the map paints Norway red.  Bottom line -  the map is BS and misleading.

Is this fucking Nazi troll still here?

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Most people I know who've been to Cuba snap a few photos while there. Here are just a few of my own(babbler123) from the first trip in 95. It's really easy to share your vacation photos of Cuba

Link don't work O Great Luddite.

The discussion mixes different problems that have to be addressed discretely (I don't mean discreetly).

A.  Don't confuse emigration/immigration with temporary travel, although there are a few things in common.

All the travel restrictions strike me as being mainly about money.

The application and the exit visa cost an arm and a leg. Most Cubans chafe at it as a money-grabbing proposition.

The medical certificate and the guarantee that the foreign host or sponsor will cover any and all costs plus health insurance/costs free the Cuban gov't of financial responsibility outside the country.

Canada, on the other hand, charges handsomely for visa applications. Even for a visitor's visa the sum is around C$70.  Immigration fees we know are sky-high.   Canada reserves the right to refuse visitors as well as immigrants.Application fees are non-refundable.

B.  Deaths.

1. Deaths at sea.   I've discussed this with a number of Cubans, including researchers.  The real figures will probably never be known because there is no record of who is leaving on improvised rafts etc. and one would have to gather details from thousands of people,  mainly friends and relatives in Cuba and in the US, about departures and arrivals; many of those who left and made it alive have now died, or the relatives/friends of those who vanished have died, which makes an accurate survey almost impossible. One could get into official US records of asylum seekers picked up on the shore but then one can correlate them with .... what?   

That's the opinion of some people, at least.  Estimates among Cubans range from 1,000 to 8,000 deaths a year.  No way of knowing.

Many of the Cubans who died trying to cross to the US or Mexico were people who could not get a US visa, for whatever reason, or who were impulsive and couldn't wait the 2 or more years it took.  The tragedy is indescribable.  MOST "balseros" (raft people) LEAVE FOR ECONOMIC REASONS, because they want better opportunities or because they are exhausted from trying to survive in a strangled economy.

Most would be people without relatives abroad to sponsor them or to send them remittances of money.  It is hard to contemplate the demoralization of Cubans (or other Latin Americans or Africans or Asians) whose neighbours receive the much-needed remittance from relatives and friends abroad, while they are stuck earning a pittance and surviving in an increasingly expensive economy.  No one who calls him/herself a friend of Cuba should EVER be dismissive of this problem. I don't care whether health care and education are free; the truth of the matter - and it's something the gov't has recognized very frankly - is that many people cannot make ends meet.  As a result, even if there no longer is the malnutrition of the "special period", some people aren't getting their needs looked after unless they have access to hard currency to buy imported, non-subsidized foods to supplement the meager ration-book diet.  Transportation problems have made it almost impossible for many seniors and disabled people to get to feeding centres (seniors' centres where  a rather unattractive but basically nourishing meal is provided).   The depression and dejection of old people left behind as the younger people leave the island in search of a better future is heartbreaking.   The middle aged people are looking after aging parents and relatives and often worrying about their children's future (either lack of work or emigration).  I could go on forever but I shouldn't.

This is NOT SPECIFIC to Cuba in ANY way.  Most dependent countries have worse situations in many respects.  The trouble is that Cuba has held itself to some higher standards while being unable to meet them, realistically.

The problem of deaths at sea is being repeated many times over in the Mediterranean and off the Canary Islands in the case of thousands of Africans and East Asians trying to reach Europe.  Central Americans and Mexicans are dying by the thousands trying to cross into the US.

2. The death penalty.  The early years saw a high number of executions - remember it was the early 60's, when many countries still had the death penalty and there was little awareness world-wide of the need to ban it; in addition, the leadership (mainly young males) had come out of the guerrilla war and were more inured to killing (or accustomed to carrying out executions) and they were barely out of a period in Cuban history where torture and extra-judicial killings by police were commonplace, so trials and executions seemed reasonable by comparison.  Executions seem to have become less common, more selective (as in the 1990's case of General Ochoa, a popular military figure accused of drug trafficking but widely suspected of having been a fall guy or even a potential rival for the Castro brothers - the jury is out on that one).  Finally, the readier acceptance of the death penalty is connected with the siege mentality and the fear of the overwhelming power of the US, which was actively backing rebellion, sabotage, and assassinations aimed at destabilizing the revolution and reversing its gains.  In time, there will be more open discussion of the unjust death sentences that have been handed down over the years; who knows what redress there may be, if any. 

3.  Deaths by counterrevolutionaries.  Apart from the Barbados air disaster, the explosion of the Belgian ship La Coubre,in Havana harbour the fire at the Encanto department store, the murder of literacy workers in the countryside by counterrevolutionary guerrillas,( mainly in the 1960's) ; the assassination on US soil, in the 1970's, of two Cuban-Americans working toward a dialogue withe the Cuban government; the  deadly attacks on Cuban diplomats in Canada and the US, and the death of a  foreign tourist in the hotel bombing in the 90's, I don't know of other major terrorist acts that cost many lives.   They are quantitatively less significant than the no. of people executed by the state. Plus there was the possible influence of the USSR, where the death penalty was unfortunately very commonly used.

 But the embargo along with acts of sabotage have  also cost lives indirectly, as public services were affected over the years and people became desperate enough to risk their lives crossing the sea.

In any case, pitting statistics against statistics is a very crude way of justifying one's political stance.  To say "the counterrevolutionaries killed only x Cubans, the government killed y" is a little absurd.  Deaths are deaths , period. And, on the other hand, context is important, too.

Dixi.

Postscript to my tract above: 
I didn't mean to suggest that seniors and disabled people were leaving on rafts - just that younger people who see the sorry state  of their own future might be inclined to get more desperate and risk their lives.

Re. restrictions on exit visas: many people tend to emigrate indirectly/illegally, while serving on foreign missions (medical, educational, sports, persons with access to sensitive state data), because they are considered essential personnel.  The state has invested heavily in their education and training and is very reluctant to let them go.  Sometimes I wish Canada could have some restrictions on doctors and nurses (and other professionals) who get a heavily subsidized education here then emigrate to the US for higher salaries.

Cuba and Emigration: The Myth of Refugees 2006

Apparently you didnt read any of the homework assignments I nailed up for you above, kindred tsk-tsk So what are the odds that the US wouldnt interfere politically in Cuba given your example of one single Latin American country among dozens? What's in Costa Rica that the Yanquis would want? It's not so close to Miami, so it's not a good waypoint/conduit for the CIA and organized crime running drugs to the mainland. Havana is just 90 miles away though. And the US mililtary has already demonstrated interest in Cuba with the illegal occupation at Gitmo Bay. That's right, not Costa Rica but Cuba.

They just never found Cuba to be all that strategic for waging dirty wars in CEntral America however. Costa Rica was used as a staging country for the Contra mercenaries marauding in over the borders to Nicaragua in the 1980s US sponsored dirty war waged on a tiny nation of a few million peasants. 

El Salvador is a US-Managed capitalist country just a few day's drive from George Bush's Texas. And about half of them live in grinding poverty and despair. The children rummage through landfill sites strewn with medical waste and human excrement. They search for trinkets to sell to help support their families. Meanwhile, Cuban children are in school where they belong. El Salvador is your typical US-managed shithole.

And Haiti is just 55 miles from Cuba.

The US military and CIA have invadede Haiti about 25 times from last century to this one in putting down popular people's revolts against intolerable US-backed dictatorships.

Haiti is a thirdworld capitalist shithole-deluxe, for sure. Did I mention the CIA invading that island nation just 55 miles from Cuba several times? Okay, I do remember now. YES! I did. And to be sure, Haiti is not far from that other island nation which Yanquis and their rightwing Cuban friends tried to invade militarily in 1961 and attempted assassinations and various terrorist attacks on Cuba and against Cubans ever since. It's as if the Gringos have waged war on several fronts against Cuba for several decades.

And nobody spies on the lives of others quite like the NSA does. It's very scary when we consider that corporate America helps them spy on Americans for profit. State-corporate fascism is an insidious combination.

old_bolshie wrote:

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Well I'm just going to put the block on my photo album again...

Fine with me-since you can't even link any of your photos here they don't exist do they-just like legal Cuban emigrants.

The photos have been open to public viewing all the while. passwd: "babbler123"

You must me a total idiot besides being full of crap.

" the lives of others quite like the NSA does"

If you are talking to a person that the NSA has intel of possible terrorist connections you might be monitored by the NSA. The chances of an ordinary person being monitored are slim to none. In Cuba you are constantly being monitored by CDRs. Records are kept on your political “reliability”. This starts at school where records are kept on every student. Children are taught by their parents on what not to say. Children are encouraged to rat out their parents. Cuba is identical to what existed in the DDR with the Stasi.

kindrid, if shoe were clues, you'd be barefoot

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El Salvador is a shithole run by about 14 or so coffee barons whose forebear family members were granted huge tracts of land in Spanish colonial times.

Death Squads in El Salvador:A Pattern of U.S. Complicity 

Ah, the death squads no longer exists since the war ended.

Kindrid wrote:

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El Salvador is a shithole run by about 14 or so coffee barons whose forebear family members were granted huge tracts of land in Spanish colonial times.

Death Squads in El Salvador:A Pattern of U.S. Complicity 

Ah, the death squads no longer exists since the war ended.

You're full of smelly bullshit as per usual

Death Squads Still Operating in El Salvador  2007

It seems you take one foot out just in time to put the other one in.

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Four other police officers were arrested Aug. 27 in the eastern department of San Miguel in connection with the group headed by Arriaza, and were charged with belonging to a death squad.

So you are claiming that common criminals are the equivalent to government sponsored death squads?

Kindrid wrote:

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Four other police officers were arrested Aug. 27 in the eastern department of San Miguel in connection with the group headed by Arriaza, and were charged with belonging to a death squad.

So you are claiming that common criminals are the equivalent to government sponsored death squads?

Can you read?

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Another indication of the existence of death squads was the distribution of flyers over the past two weeks in the town of Chalchuapa, 80 km from San Salvador, signed simply with the initials "E.L." The leaflets declare a "curfew" and urge local residents and the members of the PNC themselves to stay inside at night."For your own good, we advise you not to be on the streets after 10:00 PM, because we are carrying out a cleansing campaign," says the flyer.The town's murder rate has soared from four or five killings a month at the beginning of the year to 17 in August alone, according to the local PNC offices.

I'm not saying youre a fucktard or anything, just that printed material warning of "cleansing campaigns" in a country known for its rightwing death squads and brutal U.S.-backed dictatorships of the recent past should be an indication that something's amiss. If the USSA and its shitholing backyard nations are such good places to be, then why dont you go see for yourself, you stupid bastard?

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