I have never seen such angry feelings among usually apolitical friends and family members, and we're still eight months away from the actual event. Harper is seen as forcing Jean Charest's hand by forging ahead with a lavish historical re-enactment of the British victory over French Canadian troops in 1759 on Quebec City's Plains of Abraham. The toddschneiders of this country will surely scoff and rant, but I'd wager that Quebeckers' reaction is going to turn out a lot stronger than they think. Reason enough for a strong showing at a new referendum? You betcha. Globe&Mail story
Plains of Abraham: Harper forcing re-enactement of 1759 defeat down Quebeckers' throat
Tue, 2009-01-20 01:11
#1
Plains of Abraham: Harper forcing re-enactement of 1759 defeat down Quebeckers' throat
Tue, 2009-01-20 07:15
#2
Don't forget to comment about Lysiane Gagnon's smear job against Amir Khadir, the people of Mercier (where there are bobos but also still a lot of people under the poverty line, just paying rents they can't afford because they don't want to be pushed out), the people attending the PEACEFUL demonstration for Gaza, and Françoise David's dress sense, of all the irrelevant things...
Yeah, we seem to get an endless trickle of angryphones who somehow see their culture as not "ethnic", "regional" or "parochial". Rather sad, actually.
That sounds like a reconquest of Québec after the 400th anniversary celebrations. Those had a lot of Disneyfication and general bullshit, but there was also a range of interesting events on different aspects of social history and cultural creation.
Tue, 2009-01-20 08:37
#3
Boom Boom
Is this Harper's new election motto: "My Canada Does Not Include Quebec" ??
Tue, 2009-01-20 08:44
#4
Cueball
Yes, they both die in the end. I like that part. Two solitudes... and whatever.
Tue, 2009-01-20 08:48
#5
Catchfire
I want to play the plucky barefoot warrior with the fancy handbag and cool topknot in this picture:
Tue, 2009-01-20 11:34
#6
"Hark... the Grim Reaper and his creaking Wheelbarrow..."
"Uh oh... That would be the PM and his Charest"
Tue, 2009-01-20 15:40
#7
'That sounds like a reconquest of Québec '
Don't you mean the re- reconquest of Quebec? There was a flourishing culture in Quebec before the French conquest, as you know, but that sentiment was lost on Quebec's celebrations last year.
Although the ever present whitewash of the expropriation of lands through 'alliance' did make its usual rounds in the propaganda ring.
Tue, 2009-01-20 20:40
#8
Doesn’t this re-enactment event happen every few years?
Tue, 2009-01-20 21:47
#9
Harper: "What?.... too soon?"
Wed, 2009-01-21 04:34
#10
And the reason that Harper thinks this will help his party GAIN seats in Quebec is...?
And will he bring back "The Maple Leaf Forever" while he's at it?
I can only assume that massive civil disobedience is already being planned to stop this.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________ Our Demands Most Moderate are/ We Only Want The World! -James Connolly
Wed, 2009-01-21 06:13
#11
Civil disobedience for an historical re-enactment? You must be joking Ken. How about massive civil disobedience for our support of the American war effort and its foreign policies, or maybe to protest the killing of Palestinians, or for closer at home, the racialized treatment of FNs at the hands of police across the country? Quebecers might also seek to protest their local industry which provides the US military with ammunition to spend on Iraqi bodies.
I for one, will attend the re-enactment because they're just loads of fun to watch. Not to mention that I hold no sympathy for the military and political losses of any imperialist colonial powers, be they of British, French, Spanish or any other Western source.
Besides, French aims for an American empire were really dashed on the battlefields of Europe and not in Quebec. Nationalists can always rejoice in, and even attend several re-enactments a year of American Revolution battles that with the aid of France, helped defeat those other imperialists, the English. This way the sensitivities and super-egos of the descendants of both colonial powers can be steeped in the self-worth one might attain from the actions and 'achievements' of his ancestors, while the First Nations are still trying to 're-enact' shattered cultures and languages and save their scraps of land from being turned into golf courses for the conquistadors to play on.
Wed, 2009-01-21 14:33
#12
Does anyone actually know what the First Nations' position is on these re-enactments?
At the time of these events, native tribes were actually allies of the French and the British. Diplomatically and militarily, one imagines this is a proud part of FN history in Quebec. If they are in fact participating, I am sure they must be very excited to dramatize their contribution for a large international audience.
I grew up in SW Ontario near the site of the Battle of Moraviantown (where Tecumseh was killed during the War of 1812). This battle was reeancted for a number of years, with local native bands portraying the FN forces alllied with the British. My observation was they were very keen to keep this aspect of their history alive.
Wed, 2009-01-21 14:43
#13
If some of the Native Canadians - presumably, the majority - were allies of the French regime, I for one don't imagine anything about their descendants' current feelings. I think you'll agree that, in general, Mr. Harper's politics on First Nations' issues are nothing to rejoice about - even if FN people are offered the occasional job as stereotypes. I also am aware that expressions of FN discontent generally get much lesser press in White media than the reverse... and that ball is squarely in our court.
Wed, 2009-01-21 17:04
#14
The word alliance used in this historical context is merely a euphemism. In fact, these so-called allainces were on behalf of the British, as well as the French, deception and usery. Ask yourself why these allies have now wound up on small bits of land that both English and French governments consistently try to encroach upon. In French and British colonial propaganda lore, FN peoples have been forever painted as the 'noble savage' in a lack lustre attempt to pay lip service to political correctness, but have been ruthlessly marginalized and have undergone an extensive process of ethnocide.
To make matters worse, the two dominant groups of this country now use their power and their media, one to usurp the role of the indigenous populations and act the victim, and the other to counter this particular line of bs with their own brand of bs. Essentially, the colonial wars seem to have never ended in this country and the real victims are the ones still without a voice.
Wed, 2009-01-21 18:23
#15
I grew up in SW Ontario near the site of the Battle of Moraviantown (where Tecumseh was killed during the War of 1812). This battle was reeancted for a number of years, with local native bands portraying the FN forces alllied with the British. My observation was they were very keen to keep this aspect of their history alive.
I can confirm there are a large number of native americans taking part in these events.
Wed, 2009-01-21 18:26
#16
This guy sounds like viijan, but he spells better.
You won't find much disagreement about the ethnic cleansing of Aboriginal peoples here. But using it in your agenda in support of the national oppression of Québec is sick and sad.
Wed, 2009-01-21 19:00
#17
"And will he bring back "The Maple Leaf Forever" while he's at it? "
Actually, I would be all for that-- it's a better tune than "O Canada". And, someone has crafted alternative lyrics that don't make reference to Wolfe.
I'm against this historical re-enactment for the reasons menitoned above.
And also because it will divert attention from the nation wide historical re-enactment of the Great Deppression we are having his year.
Wed, 2009-01-21 19:03
#18
Tommy I am surprised.
Wed, 2009-01-21 19:24
#19
Really, you know I am all for historical stuff, but there's such a thing as tact.
How would you feel, Webgear, if Germans re-enacted Dieppe, and had a jolly good time while doing it?
Wed, 2009-01-21 19:45
#20
lagatta, did you have to mention spelling? I have an error glaring at me now and it's taking all my energy to overcome my ocd and edit a correction.
The tell tale signs of an oppressed people include the dispossession of their lands, the loss of their cultural traits, including their languages, religions and choices in their way of life. French Quebec has never shown any of those signs. The culture has flourished, despite cries to the contrary. What Quebec nationalism calls oppression is simply the loss of its military and political dominance in the North American continent at the hands of the British. In contrast, these symptoms are easily found among the First Nations across North America. What is sick is that Quebec nationalists repeatedly exploit the conditions that afflict these people to score propaganda points among their own people and with those who are flacid enough to believe the claims. The only ones taunted and forced to 'speak white' were the First Nations, among other indignities, but how many times has the phrase been the rallying cry of the local variety of dishonest orators, provocateurs and propagandists?
It might be fashionable to hate British imperialism today as the model that proved most successful, but let's not forget that the same sentiment is available throughout the world for a less successful model pioneered by the French: Africa, the Middle East, Indochina, and indeed, the French Foreign Legion is still active today furthering the interests of France in foreign territories.
The re-enactment of this battle is just a period play, a glimpse into the precursor to our neo-colonialism. If we are to offer sympathies and condolences to those wronged, let's at least have the decency to show repect to those that are due a modicum of our real support rather than our lip service and moral cowardice to face and accept the truth of the Anglo/French adventures in Canada.
Wed, 2009-01-21 19:51
#21
Le T
Re-enactments are not historical at all. They are hegemonic and portray a sanitized version of war that makes it seem noble and cool. Leaving out all the parts like occupation, rape, misery and death.
I think that panhead has a point, even if he makes it somewhat carelessly, this French-English wars in this land were instrumental in the divide and conquer methods practiced against Indigenous Peoples. I think that the French and English warlords were even able to de-stable the Haudenasaunee Confederacy- some nations fighting for the Brits and others for the French. The repercussions of this are still felt today.
ETA: I just cross-posted with panhead and after reading his most recent post I can say that he no longer has much of a point as much as anti-Quebecois bigotry
Wed, 2009-01-21 19:53
#22
Le T
panhead - I think that you minimize the experience of many Francophones in Quebec and Canada.
Wed, 2009-01-21 19:56
#23
Ironically, it could be said from an anglo perspective that it was certainly no victory. At least, no victory for the non- aristrocrats, even to this day.
British domination of this part of the continent condemned us to the faux democracy and faux liberty we enjoy today, and stamped the national psyche with docility in the face of the outrageous acts of our leadership.
Wed, 2009-01-21 19:59
#24
"Ironically, it could be said from an anglo perspective that it was certainly no victory. "
Can you get the Queen to sign her name to that - and annul a lot of needless paperwork since?
Wed, 2009-01-21 20:01
#25
Tommy
I am a historically re-enactor, focusing mainly on War of 1812; however I am currently looking at Viking/Norman era or 14th century groups due to my location. I have taken part on both winning and losing sides of battles.
I believe this particular event is being blown out of portion, due to politicians (and their supporters) and political groups trying to score points against each other. This event has happen in the past without little coverage.
Re-enactors organize these events out of love of history and education, not to cause pain against part of society. There is representation from all part Canadian society in these events (University teachers, steel workers, students, young and old, rich and poor).
A large number re-enactors use their skills for education films, such as the CBC' Peoples History. I would estimate there are at least 10,000 people in participate in all eras of re-enactments.
There is an event this weekend (Battle of the River Raisin) where a large number of American soldiers were killed by natives after surrendering to the British. This event has as a very large number of American participants.
Personal I believe Dieppe should be an event if it is not already.
(I may reword this later, I want this post to be more passionate however I am running out of time.)
Wed, 2009-01-21 20:18
#26
Well, Webgear, historical events are always used for political purposes. That's the whole point of keeping track of them.
Let's re-enact an historical antibellum southern U.S. plantation, and see how well it goes over, in say, Harlem, N.Y.
I know what your intentions are, what's in your heart. But it matters on how it's received.
Wed, 2009-01-21 20:18
#27
I think you are missing the point, Webgear, of the winning side organizing this re-enactment in the losing side's capital, for fun. (But please, don't change an iota to your plans!)
Wed, 2009-01-21 20:27
#28
Le T, it's not my intention to minimize the experience of French Quebecers, only to put it in a more accurate historical perspective. The two solitudes mentioned above, were and are the two sides of the same coin. The French suffered defeat and the loss of the political independence they originaly enjoyed, but they maintained their colonial status over the indigenous populations of Quebec, as well as their cultural and their religious and social hierarchy and hegemony.
If the re-enactment is seen as an affront, imo, it is only to those who lament the loss of empire and dominance.
If you persist in labelling me as a bigot then please amend it to include anti imperialist bigot as I feel an equal amount of scorn and contempt for all who chose to embark on 'civilizing', land grabbing, expeditions.
Wed, 2009-01-21 20:40
#29
Le T
If the re-enactment is seen as an affront, imo, it is only to those who lament the loss of empire and dominance.
Perhaps, but it seems to be a symbol to many of the oppression of Francophones in Canada by Anglophone majorities. Your idea that because France colonized Turtle Island no one who has suffered from the anti-French bigotry that is alive and well in Canada has juste cause to complain is simply stupid. It would be like arguing that undocumented workers who are exploited and criminalized have no right to complain because they are just a continuation of colonial settlement. Colonialism is more complex and pervasive than you imply with your ideas.
ETA: I do support your project of bringing the Indigenous context into this discussion though. I just think that it needs to be done in a way that takes into consideration the intersectionality of the struggle.
Wed, 2009-01-21 20:45
#30
Tommy
If we stop this event, we will start limiting or stopping other events. Will this stop at events, or will it carry on to historical sites or museum?
I believe this event will speak about the truths of Canadian history. I know from 1812 events, there are large positive history lessons on events that effected outcome of First Nation (for example Brocks and Tecumseh's death).
Martin
I believe you are mistake. These are private organizations injunction with the National Battlefields Commission that are arranging this event. The re-enactment community receive very little funding for the government at any level.
Here are some units, there is a Chat group also, however I have miss placed the link.
http://www.laverendrye.ca/main.html
Wed, 2009-01-21 20:46
#31
I believe there are a large number of NDP supporters in the 1812 community.
Wed, 2009-01-21 20:52
#32
Oh, come on, Webgear! I am sure even you will agree that opposition to the event would have to be addressed to the National Battlefields Commission and that this body answers only to the federal government.
So neither Mr. Charest nor French Quebeckers are mistaken in calling this a "federal initiative" and laying the problem at Mr. Harper's big plodding feet.
Wed, 2009-01-21 20:53
#33
Native groups
http://www.greatlakeswoodlandalliance.tk/
http://www.concentric.net/~rowenna/woodland/
http://www.csmid.com/indiandepartment.html
If you look at these sites, it is about researching history and providing education to those that now little about Canadian history.
Wed, 2009-01-21 20:58
#34
I am not Tommy_Paine...
Hiarious on-line response to the whole project by a friend in Quebec City. (Relax... it's in English.)
Wed, 2009-01-21 21:17
#35
Sorry Martin, my mistake. I'll edit the post.
Wed, 2009-01-21 21:17
#36
Martin
This event has happen in the past, why all the oppsition now?
http://www.mediamash.ca/media/4086/Re-enactment/
Jason Chamberlain/Northumberland News Students at Terry Fox Public School performed a reenactment of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham from the Seven Years War on Wednesday, June 18. From left, John Inso, Clayton Meones, Liam Archibald and Keston Penfold of the French army prepare to attack the British.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/view-news-afficher-nouvelles-eng.asp?id=2689
Historical encampment recreating military life of periods between 1608 and 2008. Three hundred re-enactment experts and enthusiasts along with many military personnel will be on site to show the public antique and contemporary uniforms, vehicles and equipment.
Wed, 2009-01-21 21:19
#37
Le T, much of this remembered oppression, when taken in the same context of its period, as in what indigenous people suffered both here and elsewhere, is largely exaggerated, As I mentioned above, the French in Quebec retained their social institutions, their language, their religion and local authority. This is not an oppressive condition.
Take for instance Tommy's attempt to equate a plantation re-enactment to the present discussion. The situations are dissimilar in every way. French dominions stretched to Louisiana and Haiti, engaging in the very same slave trading and land grabbing as the other colonial powers.
I applaud the imagination, but I'll retain my sympathy and support for those who suffered for it.
Wed, 2009-01-21 21:26
#38
So ingenuous... Read Helene Buzetti's Le Devoir article to have an idea of how extensive this specific reenactment/celebration is supposed to be.
Its almost as if somebody in the PMO really wanted the Bloc to draw from the official Opposition every Quebec Francophone vote in the next federal election...
Wed, 2009-01-21 21:30
#39
"Tommy
If we stop this event, we will start limiting or stopping other events. Will this stop at events, or will it carry on to historical sites or museum?"
Well, these debates crop up at museums and at historical sites all the time. And it's probably good that they do-- if nothing else, it leads us to re-examine them.
And, like I mentioned with the plantation example, we of course self sensor what we draw from history.
Suggest re-enacting Amherst sending small pox infected blankets, and see how it goes over. It's an event that speaks a truth about Canadian History.
Or, re-enact the St. Louis being rebuffed from Canadian shores, as an event at a Liberal Party fundraiser.
Or, re-enact some of the techniques Temcumseh and his brother had for encouraging solidarity amoungst his confederacy.
Who haven't I offended yet with truths of Canadian historical events?
It's difficult, with all this picking and choosing of what to look at and what to turn a blind eye to, to all of a sudden get huffy with some in Quebec who don't find the Battle of the Plains of Abraham a fun thing to cellebrate.
It may seem silly to you. It may even seem silly to me. But there are things you hold near and dear, and things I hold near and dear, that would seem silly to them.
Wed, 2009-01-21 21:33
#40
Martin
Can you provide a link please to the article.
Wed, 2009-01-21 21:40
#41
Civil disobedience for an historical re-enactment? You must be joking Ken. How about massive civil disobedience for our support of the American war effort and its foreign policies, or maybe to protest the killing of Palestinians, or for closer at home, the racialized treatment of FNs at the hands of police across the country? Quebecers might also seek to protest their local industry which provides the US military with ammunition to spend on Iraqi bodies.
I did not mean that this event was a greater outrage than any of those that you mention.
Nor was I saying that protesting this reenactment was more important than activism and civil disobedience on Gaza, Iraq, Afghanistan, FNs and economic militarism in Quebec...
It doesn't always have to be"zero-sum" or "either-or".
It could even be possible to use this particular event to get the public to see the historic connections between the Imperial ramifications of the events on the Plains of Abraham and the imperial arrogance we all struggle against today.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________ Our Demands Most Moderate are/ We Only Want The World! -James Connolly
Wed, 2009-01-21 21:46
#42
Le T, it's not my intention to minimize the experience of French Quebecers, only to put it in a more accurate historical perspective.
The British brought education to India, stamped out barbaric practices, and delivered industry and enlightenment.
It's not my intention to minimize the experience of the people of India, only to put it in a more accurate historical perspective.
Wed, 2009-01-21 21:48
#43
Sorry, but for some reason Ze's comment reminds me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso
_________________________________________________________________________________________________ Our Demands Most Moderate are/ We Only Want The World! -James Connolly
Wed, 2009-01-21 21:50
#44
"Can you provide a link please to the article."
I thought I had but the hyperlink didn't jell, apparently. It's http://www.ledevoir.ca/2009/01/17/227902.html
Wed, 2009-01-21 21:56
#45
Tommy
It is not silly, I think this is a very serious issue.
I agree with Martin, this event is being corrupted by political groups that are trying to stir up trouble in order to score political points.
I am willing to bet that this event was plan about 5 year ago based off my experiences with 1812 events.
I am willing to support any re-enactment event; this is history that we are letting slip away. We need these events to teach people the history of Canada.
No one has proven that the NBC or F&I community have any ill intent, this event is being fucked over by scum sucking politicians.
Wed, 2009-01-21 21:58
#46
"Sorry, but for some reason Ze's comment reminds me of this:"
Brilliant. But of course, we won't mention the derisive debates over the merits of "The People's Front of Judea" vs. "The Judean People's Front" or The John Cleese character's attempts to mount a rescue committee-- or was that an ad hoc committee to discuss the formation of a rescue committee for Brian.
Too close to the bone, on a left wing message board.
Wed, 2009-01-21 21:58
#47
Martin, thank you.
I have horrible times linking websites also. Is there a English verison?
Wed, 2009-01-21 22:01
#48
If you are going to use me for cred, make that ONE political group, firmly in power in Ottawa.
It would be adding insult to injury to demonize French Quebec groups for objecting.
Wed, 2009-01-21 22:14
#49
"It is not silly, I think this is a very serious issue.
I didn't say re-enactments were silly. I meant to say that we may think this opposition to this specific re-enactment may seem silly. And, honestly, on a certain level, it is to me. Just because some English aristocratic fop beat a French aristocratic fop 250 years ago doesn't mean that anglophones are better than francophones today.
"this event is being fucked over by scum sucking politicians."
Ah, the never ending historical re-enactment.
I think the fact that this event can be fucked over by scum sucking politicians-- on either side-- shows that perhaps this is all self evident. What I said above as a joke-- "what? ... too soon?" Maybe truer than I thought.
Wed, 2009-01-21 22:34
#50
I agree that we need to be sensitive on this issue and ensure that no feelings are unnecessary hurt. I have provided examples other touchy events that seem to satisfy everyone's requirements.
This event should be a history lesson, if we do not settle our problems from this event how are we suppose to fix the current politically situation.
The French do not have a problem with re-enacting St. Bartholemew's day, or Vandee incident.
Wed, 2009-01-21 22:59
#51
Yet "every French citizen has to have already forgotten the St Bartholomew" massacre, Renan said. Is it re-enacted?