Gaza and Israel VIII

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Sun, 2009-01-18 02:42

saga

Fidel wrote:
saga wrote:

Interesting ... Layton made a stronger statement last March than he has made during the massacre.

What does that tell you?

It tells me that the situation last March is not what it is today?

And Layton was still saying that Harper was as much the thundering nit-wit then as he is now wrt Israeli aggression against Palestinians. "...the blockade is pushing the civilian health system of Gaza to the brink of collapse, and is running the risk of contravening the prohibition against “collective punishment”. - Jack Layton, 3/08

Harper is still in need of a brain and central nervous system in general

Harper is as useless as tits on a bull! We know that. But it is the opposition letting us down too that is the shocker, imo.

Gee ... It would sure be nice to have heard those things from Layton while the bombing of Gaza was in progress.

Has he perhaps flip-flopped on that?

It's the lack of response, lack of interest, lack of explanation to the electorate from any of them that has me flabbergasted! It's like we don't exist, and unfortunately, it seems to me that's how all of our politicians operate these days.

Sun, 2009-01-18 02:43

#53

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Fidel wrote:
M. Spector wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Sorry, the NDP have not said in so many equal words that "Israel has a right to defend itself"

Layton wrote:
[b]Notwithstanding every nation's right to self-defence[/b] the Israeli government's response is disproportionate, and the use of rockets against Israeli civilians must be rejected.

And that was said last March without any reference to what's happened over the last several days.....Back in March and in the context provided by Jack at the time, [b]he could have been referring to Cuba's right to defend itself[/b] or any other country. [b]In fact, that's exactly what Jack was referring to last March.[/b] [emphasis added by MS]

Um, Layton was talking about [b]Cuba's[/b] right to defend itself last March? Nope.

[b]Layton was talking about Israel's right to defend itself against Gaza[/b]; his only criticism of Israel's mounting violence against Israeli citizens was that it was "disproportionate".

The only thing that has changed in the last ten months is that Israel's violence has become even more "disproportionate".

Your categorical statement that the NDP doesn't talk about Israel's right to defend itself by force against the Gazan population turns out to be quite false.

Sun, 2009-01-18 04:13

#54

Fidel

Notwithstanding, meaning "in spite of", or nevertheless every country's right to self-defence, the Israeli government's response is, or was at that time last March, disproportionate.

And yes, Cuba would be included somewhere in that super set of countries implied by the phrase "every country" I suppose if Layton had meant just Israel, then he would have said "only Israel has a right to self defence"

The words all go together and shouldnt be parsed into separate and distinct phrases separate from the whole in order that they might say something different in support of an entirely new and diabolical meaning you're attempting to give them.

What Layton said several months ago, ie. before December 19th, was that he was trying to warn Steve "I'm crazy Jorge de la yayo's pocket lint" Harper in the PMO of a collapse of Palestinian medical services as a direct result of Israelis' "response." Apparently our head stooge was having none of it even then.

And how much Israeli "response" was there?

Layton said it was disproportionate. And his choice of words implies that the response was disproportionate in relation to that of the Palestinians even at that time, which is not in the here and now but last spring.

Sun, 2009-01-18 15:04

#55

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

From British Hansard, January 15, 2009:

Quote:
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): I was brought up as an orthodox Jew and a Zionist. On a shelf in our kitchen, there was a tin box for the Jewish National Fund, into which we put coins to help the pioneers building a Jewish presence in Palestine.

I first went to Israel in 1961 and I have been there since more times than I can count. I had family in Israel and have friends in Israel. One of them fought in the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1973 and was wounded in two of them. The tie clip that I am wearing is made from a campaign decoration awarded to him, which he presented to me.

I have known most of the Prime Ministers of Israel, starting with the founding Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion. Golda Meir was my friend, as was Yigal Allon, Deputy Prime Minister, who, as a general, won the Negev for Israel in the 1948 war of independence.

My parents came to Britain as refugees from Poland. Most of their families were subsequently murdered by the Nazis in the holocaust. My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town of Staszow. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed.

My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The current Israeli Government ruthlessly and cynically exploit the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians. The implication is that Jewish lives are precious, but the lives of Palestinians do not count.

On Sky News a few days ago, the spokeswoman for the Israeli army, Major Leibovich, was asked about the Israeli killing of, at that time, 800 Palestinians—the total is now 1,000. She replied instantly that

“500 of them were militants.”

That was the reply of a Nazi. I suppose that the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants.

The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni asserts that her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists. Tzipi Livni’s father was Eitan Livni, chief operations officer of the terrorist Irgun Zvai Leumi, who organised the blowing-up of the King David hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 victims were killed, including four Jews.

Israel was born out of Jewish terrorism. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Irgun, together with the terrorist Stern gang, massacred 254 Palestinians in 1948 in the village of Deir Yassin. Today, the current Israeli Government indicate that they would be willing, in circumstances acceptable to them, to negotiate with the Palestinian President Abbas of Fatah. It is too late for that. They could have negotiated with Fatah’s previous leader, Yasser Arafat, who was a friend of mine. Instead, they besieged him in a bunker in Ramallah, where I visited him. Because of the failings of Fatah since Arafat’s death, Hamas won the Palestinian election in 2006. Hamas is a deeply nasty organisation, but it was democratically elected, and it is the only game in town. The boycotting of Hamas, including by our Government, has been a culpable error, from which dreadful consequences have followed.

The great Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban, with whom I campaigned for peace on many platforms, said:

“You make peace by talking to your enemies.”

However many Palestinians the Israelis murder in Gaza, they cannot solve this existential problem by military means. Whenever and however the fighting ends, there will still be 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza and 2.5 million more on the west bank. They are treated like dirt by the Israelis, with hundreds of road blocks and with the ghastly denizens of the illegal Jewish settlements harassing them as well. The time will come, not so long from now, when they will outnumber the Jewish population in Israel.

It is time for our Government to make clear to the Israeli Government that their conduct and policies are unacceptable, and to impose a total arms ban on Israel. It is time for peace, but real peace, not the solution by conquest which is the Israelis’ real goal but which it is impossible for them to achieve. They are not simply war criminals; they are fools.

Sun, 2009-01-18 15:10

#56

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

A LETTER FROM GAZA TO PRESIDENT HUGO CHAVEZ

January 12, 2009

In the Name of God; The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful
President Hugo Chavez,
Your Excellency, President Hugo Chavez,

We, the people of Palestine, commend your courage to speak and act upon your conscience regardless of your detractors' criticism or cowardice.

Mr. President, we have watched death rain upon our families and children in Gaza for weeks; and yet we stand proud and ready for any outcome. We are a resilient people who wish for peace but will fight rather than bow to injustice. We live and die by the codes of our forefathers codes of honor, integrity, truth and bravery.

Throughout history, in a just conflict, there always emerges a champion, a single hero who, by his actions, embodies all the virtues the masses aspire to. You have demonstrated that you are such a man.

We have observed your commitment to the destitute and disenfranchised since you first took office. The Americas are fortunate that your presidency has not only survived but emerged as a paradigm to be emulated. You have boldly said what the world's masses feel from speaking out against the sulphur of imperialism at the United Nations in 2006 through to the recent expulsion of the devil's minion.

[b]Mr. President, we were eager to meet you in the summer of 2007 but unfortunately yet another blockade by the Israelis, who control our ports and borders, suspended our plans. As we began the truce which we initiated, they were already planning the destruction of our infrastructure.

The Israelis slowly and deliberately began reducing the presence of journalists and denying humanitarian groups access to Gaza over the past six months. They reduced the number of trucks bringing supplies from several thousand to a handful each month. And since they began their bombing campaign, food and fuel are scarce. In fact, only 9 of 47 bakeries produce bread, only 5% of industrial operations function and wastewater pumping stations have shut down, flooding raw sewage into populated areas, farmland and the sea.

We do not know who among us will remain alive once this barbaric onslaught is ended. But we remain, as a people and a government, undeterred in our belief that justice will reign.

We can ask no more of you than you have already done; for you have proven that a nation cannot be cowed simply because it drives its own destiny, nor will a leader lose his throne for challenging imperialism. We salute the citizens of Venezuela for choosing President Chavez, and we commend you for being among the few leaders of this age who put people before politics.[/b]

I may not live to honor our commitment to meet you; but our people will not rest until they have sent a delegation to meet the man who put politics aside, spoke with honor and acted with courage.

Very Truly Yours,
Dr. Ahmed Yousef
Deputy of the Minister of Foreign Affairs
Former Political Advisor to the Prime Minister Ismael Hanniya

[url=http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m50842&hd=&size=1&l=e][color=mediumblue][u]So...

Sun, 2009-01-18 15:19

#57

pogge

A couple of posts up, M. Spector quoted remarks made by Sir Gerald Kaufman in the British House of Commons. You can watch Sir Gerald deliver those remarks [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8][b]here[/b][/url].

Sun, 2009-01-18 16:08

#58

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Quote:
For people who live in Canada, it is not enough to condemn Israeli atrocities. We must also repudiate the support for Israel's assault by the Canadian federal government and the other major political parties. The Tory government echoes the Israeli government's public relations spin. Treasury Board head Vic Toews made the Tory stance plain: "Defence of Israel is not a political choice for our government, it is a moral imperative." The Liberal position is in essence the same. Many NDP politicians have placed themselves in the camp of supporters of Israeli state policy. The federal NDP call for a "balanced approach" to the crisis is obfuscation: can one imagine a more unbalanced situation than Israel's occupation and war against the Palestinians of Gaza, with a ratio of Palestinian to Israeli dead of almost 100:1?

It needs to be said clearly: the immediate cause of the crisis is the brutal Israeli siege of Gaza that makes it, as its residents say, the world's largest open-air prison. Sporadic rocket fire into Israel has been a response to this oppression.

All supporters of peace and social justice should not only call for an immediate and unconditional end to the assault, the withdrawal of Israeli troops, and an end to the Israeli blockade of Gaza but also build the growing campaign for Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) against Israel.

[url=http://www.newsocialist.org/index.php?id=1800][color=mediumblue][u]New Socialist[/u][/color][/url]

Sun, 2009-01-18 16:22

#59

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Fidel wrote:

Notwithstanding, meaning "in spite of", or nevertheless every country's right to self-defence, the Israeli government's response is, or was at that time last March, disproportionate....

Layton said it was disproportionate. And his choice of words implies that the response was disproportionate in relation to that of the Palestinians even at that time, which is not in the here and now but last spring.

The "disproportionate" trope that liberal politicians like to drag out implies that there could exist a "proportionate" military response by Israel that would be perfectly acceptable under the international standards for the right of self-defence. In other words, it could mean that Israel would be entitled, without deserving criticism, to send an ISR rocket into Gaza City for every Qassam rocket sent from Gaza into Israel.

The whole [url=http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/%e2%80%9cjust%e2%80%9d-violence-in... notion[/u][/color][/url] is based on the assumption of Israel's supposed right to defend itself against the resistance of the Gazans. It's a phony neutralist stance, that tolerates Israeli aggression as long as it's "proportional" to Gazan resistance. It also ignores the overwhelming imbalance in military power between the two sides.

By prefacing his statement with a recognition that Israel, like all other nations, has a right to self-defence, Layton was making Israeli aggression into an issue of Israel exercising its "right" to defend itself against Gaza - so long as the violence is "proportionate".

Funny, these politicians never get around to mentioning Gaza's right to defend itself against vastly greater Israeli aggression.

It's shit, and you should not be defending it.

Sun, 2009-01-18 17:08

#60

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Quote:
British Jews have been attacked for expressing support for Palestinians suffering under Israeli military strikes in Gaza. Police confirmed yesterday that they have provided protection to a number of people believed to be victims of UK-based Zionist extremists angered by expressions of solidarity with Palestinians.

British Jews attacked

Sun, 2009-01-18 17:54

#61

Fidel

M. Spector wrote:
Fidel wrote:

Notwithstanding, meaning "in spite of", or nevertheless every country's right to self-defence, the Israeli government's response is, or was at that time last March, disproportionate....

Layton said it was disproportionate. And his choice of words implies that the response was disproportionate in relation to that of the Palestinians even at that time, which is not in the here and now but last spring.

The "disproportionate" trope that liberal politicians like to drag out implies that there could exist a "proportionate" military response by Israel that would be perfectly acceptable under the international standards for the right of self-defence. In other words, it could mean that Israel would be entitled, without deserving criticism, to send an ISR rocket into Gaza City for every Qassam rocket sent from Gaza into Israel.

The whole [url=http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/%e2%80%9cjust%e2%80%9d-violence-in... notion[/u][/color][/url] is based on the assumption of Israel's supposed right to defend itself against the resistance of the Gazans. It's a phony neutralist stance, that tolerates Israeli aggression as long as it's "proportional" to Gazan resistance. It also ignores the overwhelming imbalance in military power between the two sides.

By prefacing his statement with a recognition that Israel, like all other nations, has a right to self-defence, Layton was making Israeli aggression into an issue of Israel exercising its "right" to defend itself against Gaza - so long as the violence is "proportionate".

Funny, these politicians never get around to mentioning Gaza's right to defend itself against vastly greater Israeli aggression.

It's shit, and you should not be defending it.

Oh for christ's sake. I swear I've been sucked into a retro episode of Newheart. And I am not defending Layton - because he doesnt need defending. It's Harper and Iggy who want some egg wiping from their fat chins.

Now you've shifted to a lower gear and are attempting to liken what Layton said to what Iggy and Harper said, that Israel has a right to defend itself period.

And now you've backpedalled from suggesting that Layton was talking about Israel's right to defend itself as a justification for the slaughter. Who would possibly attempt to fit-up the NDP leader in this careless way when Layton's statement said nothing of the sort? Not M Spector?

Those two thundering nit-wits, Harper and Iggy, said nothing about an immediate ceasefire regardless, sentence one phrase one. No, not those two. And they said sweet fuck all about humanitarian aid to Gazans. If someone is drowning and unconscious at the bottom of a swimming pool, it's not a time for parsing what Jack Layton said last fucking March and twisting it into something you only imagined he said last week and parroting the other two guys. Iggy and Harper, harper and Iggy already have that double redundancy covered 100%. No, Harper and Iggy- Iggy and Harper were parroting one another all along, and always the twains shall meet. What a nauseating bit of drivel. Why bother, Spector?

Imagine the thousand or so not breathing anymore werent Palestinians. Imagine they were a thousand or so of your immediate family, closest friends and neighbors, and some people you'd like to know better. Now imagine it was your favourite politician or viciously pro-Liberal or just an anti-NDP labour leader calling for an immediate end to all hostilities and humanitarian aid delivered asap. Is it better now?

Sun, 2009-01-18 19:10

#62

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Fidel wrote:
And now you've backpedalled from suggesting that Layton was talking about Israel's right to defend itself as a justification for the slaughter.

No, I haven't backpedalled at all. I fully stand by that position.

Fidel wrote:
Those two thundering nit-wits, Harper and Iggy, said nothing about an immediate ceasefire regardless, sentence one phrase one. No, not those two.

Gee, harsh words for your fearless Koalition leader, there!

Why do you have to make stuff up? You expect us to believe that the NDP was alone in calling for a ceasefire? Here's what the Tories and Liberals were saying:

[url=http://www.cicweb.ca/scene/2009/01/canadian-political-party-statements-o... Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon's statement, December 27, 2008:[/u][/color][/url]

Quote:
In addition to calling for immediate calm, [b]we urge renewed efforts to reach a ceasefire[/b] between Hamas and Israel and for Israeli and Palestinian leaders to remain committed to finding a comprehensive peace settlement.

And again on January 4, 2009 (same source as above):

Quote:
[b]We urge renewed international diplomatic efforts to achieve a sustainable and durable ceasefire[/b], starting with the halting of all rocket attacks on Israel.

Iggy's statement, December 29, 2008 (same source as above):

Quote:
[b]We call on all parties to end these hostilities, mindful that a durable ceasefire will be necessary[/b] to prevent continued civilian casualties and lasting damage to essential civilian infrastructure.

So you see, there's nothing terribly radical or virtuous about calling for a ceasefire. That's just knee-jerk pandering. We have the right to expect more from the NDP.

Sun, 2009-01-18 19:21

#63

Red T-shirt

I have to agree with M. Spector here. I expected much more from the NDP. In my NDP riding association we take peace very seriously. Our candidate spoke out strongly on Afghanistan and the need to get our troops out of there. If he were running again (he's not) I'm sure he'd have spoken out on the situation in Gaza too.

Sun, 2009-01-18 20:20

#64

Fidel

M. Spector wrote:

Fidel wrote:
And now you've backpedalled from suggesting that Layton was talking about Israel's right to defend itself as a justification for the slaughter.

No, I haven't backpedalled at all. I fully stand by that position.

Oh youve beaten a hasty retreat several posts ago. You argued blue-faced that Layton said exactly what Harper and Iggy said was the case - that Israel had a right to defend itself full stop. You even pulled a quote of Layton's from last March - dissected it and threw away the icky parts undermining what you were attempting to have Layton say in December as opposed to last March. That is despicable and a deliberate attempt to obfuscate and misinform. I think you've managed to hog-tie yourself with that one for sure.

Fidel wrote:
Those two thundering nit-wits, Harper and Iggy, said nothing about an immediate ceasefire regardless, sentence one phrase one. No, not those two.

M Spector wrote:
Gee, harsh words for your fearless Koalition leader, there!

He is the coalition leader. And it doesnt mean immunity from criticism.

M Spector wrote:
Why do you have to make stuff up? You expect us to believe that the NDP was alone in calling for a ceasefire? Here's what the Tories and Liberals were saying:

And Cannon said:

“Israel has a clear right to defend itself against the continued rocket attacks by Palestinian militant groups which have deliberately targeted civilians. First and foremost, those rocket attacks must stop."

And the net effect of Whig and Tory bluster is that they were spitting into the wind in no particular direction. The coalition of ReformaTories, rightwing Liberals, Mike the Knife refugees, and Iggy in opposition made exactly zero diplomatic effort to send Canadian peacekeepers or actually negotiate a ceasefire in the middle of Israeli military operations in Gaza. Nothing! It was the same as if our two old line party leaders were quoted as spewing empty rhetoric about apartheid South Africa in the 1980s and for the sake of scoring cheap political points at home while not actually doing anything meaningful about it as governments and official oppo of the day.

Quote:
So you see, there's nothing terribly radical or virtuous about calling for a ceasefire. That's just knee-jerk pandering. We have the right to expect more from the NDP.

Here is some of what was said by the NDP quoted by your own source:

Quote:

We call on the Government of Canada to immediately call for an end to the aerial bombing of Gaza, the blockade of aid to civilians and the indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israel. Indeed, the government must urge both sides to agree to end the current hostilities immediately, reinstate the ceasefire and return to the peace process.

The Government of Canada should also work to ensure that medical and food aid is provided to the civilians of Gaza through U.N. agencies

That part about the Government of Canada doing something more than nothing - nothing was done. Less than zero except for more empty rhetoric for the sake of news reporters having something to quote by our top stoogeocrats and old line party synergists working hard together toward exactly the same end goal, which was nothing next to nil. They dare not challenge the inquisition, our imperial masters in Warshington or their proxies in Israel. Weak and ineffective cowards that they are!

This is the ultimate in lazy-faire government. At the first sign of a mouse armed with the truth, the cats run away and hide. This is the first time that cats have been afraid to show up for work at mouseland central.

Sun, 2009-01-18 20:48

#65

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Quote:
There is more dissent against this destruction of Gaza among the Israeli people, the Knesset, the Israeli media, and Jewish-Americans than among the dittoheads on Capitol Hill.

The reasons for such near-unanimous support for Israeli actions – no matter how often they are condemned by peace advocates such as Bishop Desmond Tutu, United Nations resolutions, the World Court and leading human rights groups inside and outside of Israel, are numerous. The pro-Israeli government lobby, and the right-wing Christian evangelicals, lubricated by campaign money of many Political Action Committees (PACs) certainly are key.

There is also more than a little bigotry in Congress against Arabs and Muslims, reinforced by the mass media yahoos who set new records for biased reporting each time this conflict erupts.

The bias is clear. It is always the Palestinians' fault. Right-wingers who would never view the U.S. government as perfect see the Israeli government as never doing anything wrong. Liberals who do not hesitate to criticize the U.S. military view all Israeli military attacks, invasions and civilian devastation as heroic manifestations of Israeli defense.

The inversion of history and the scope of amnesia know no limits. What about the fact that the Israeli government drove Palestinians from their lands in 1947-48 with tens of thousands pushed into the Gaza strip. No problem to Congress.

Then the fact that the Israeli government cruelly occupied, in violation of UN resolutions, the West Bank and Gaza in 1967 and only removed its soldiers and colonists from Gaza (1.5 million people in a tiny area twice the size of the District of Columbia) in 2005. To Congress, the Palestinians deserved it.

Then when Hamas was freely elected to run Gaza, the Israeli authorities cut off the tax revenues on imports that belonged to the Gaza government. This threw the Gazans into a fiscal crisis-they were unable to pay their civil servants and police.

In 2006, the Israelis added to their unrelieved control of air, water and land around the open-air prison by establishing a blockade. The natives became restless. Under international law, a blockade is an act of war. Primitive rockets, called by reporters "wildly inaccurate" were fired into Israel. During this same period, Israeli soldiers and artillery and missiles would go into Gaza at will and take far more lives and cause far more injuries than those incurred by those rockets. Civilians – especially children, the infirm and elderly – died or suffered week after week for lack of medicines, medical equipment, food, electricity, fuel and water which were embargoed by the Israelis.

[url=http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/17-1][color=mediumblue][u]Ralph Nader[/u][/color][/url]

How could any reasonable person who had a choice vote for Obomba rather than Nader last November?

Sun, 2009-01-18 22:27

#66

Unionist

Not sure if this has been posted before - video includes statements by refuseniks:

[url=http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/socialtv130109b.html][color=red][b] Israeli Soldiers Refuse to Serve in Gaza - Tel Aviv demonstration, January 8, 2009[/b][/color][/url]

Sun, 2009-01-18 22:52

#67

Cueball

Excelent. That should go in CMOT's thread, of later retrieval.

Mon, 2009-01-19 03:12

#68

saga

Unionist wrote:

Not sure if this has been posted before - video includes statements by refuseniks:

[url=http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/socialtv130109b.html][color=red][b] Israeli Soldiers Refuse to Serve in Gaza - Tel Aviv demonstration, January 8, 2009[/b][/color][/url]

Thanks for that. What a breath of fresh air!

The messages are courageous ... and also the fact that they are protesting openly without being harassed.

Glimpses of hope amidst travesty and tragedy.

And this doctor, soon to be at UT

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/01/18/gaza-doctor.html?Authorized=1&A...

Mon, 2009-01-19 09:10

#69

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Livni dismisses civilian massacres as "a product of circumstance" that she is "at peace with".

http://uk.reuters.com/article/usTopNews/idUKTRE50I2LU20090119

Mon, 2009-01-19 09:31

#70

KenS

Parsing Gains of Gaza War

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/19/world/middleeast/19assess.html?th&emc=th

A NYTimes article that includes discussions with Israeli military and strategic thinkers.

Some excerpts:

"The Palestinians in Gaza got the message on the first day when Israeli warplanes struck numerous targets simultaneously in the middle of a Saturday morning. Some 200 were killed instantly, shocking Hamas and indeed all of Gaza, especially because Israel’s antirocket attacks in previous years had been more measured."

So much for we only go carefully after military targets.

"For Israel, Hamas’s rule here is anathema. But the fact that the group controls all facets of Gazan society gave Israel a rationale for attacking a wide range of institutions."

That being wholesale atatcks on civilians and civilian infrastructures. The discussions also completely give the lie to the Israeli propaganda that Hamas uses the population as human shields, and that Hamas doesn't care about civilian casualties and even welcomes them for stirring people up.

The strategists show Israel knows exactly what it is doing: that it is fighting a rational and first of all political entity. That the whole idea is to punish civilians and Palestinian civil society so that they 'think twice' about supporting Hamas.

Let alone the sheer evil bloddy mindedness- pursuing that same strategy was an utter failure for Israel in Lebanon.

"As an example, Mr. Eiland, the former national security adviser, noted that Israel “can destroy the infrastructure of the regime, and that is much more painful than only hitting military targets.”

Mon, 2009-01-19 12:38

#71

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Israel and Eurpopeans - a people complicit in a number of genocided, plan to continue collective punishment through suffocation of Gaza:

Quote:
Israel intends to exert control over the reconstruction of the Gaza Strip following its 22-day offensive, and is seeking guarantees that no U.N. projects will benefit Hamas, officials said on Monday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSLJ23288

Quote:
A senior European Union official said Monday that she expected humanitarian aid to the war-ravaged Gaza Strip to flow quickly but signaled that reconstruction of buildings and infrastructure would only begin when the EU has an acceptable Palestinian partner.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2009/01/19/news/ML-Israel-EU-Gaza.php

Mon, 2009-01-19 15:12

#72

Hoodeet

Nice. War criminals taking charge of reconstructing the essential infrastructure of their victims - probably taking their cut on the international aid, too, by having us taxpayers pay for Israeli (or US) services and goods and excise taxes. Perhaps Canada stands to gain a few lucrative contracts now, having backed Israel to the hilt.

(So typically Canadian, too, it would be.)

But then again, the work will probably be channelled through the "cooperative" P.A. with the same circle of corrupt Palestinians running it that the Gaza folk voted out of office.

Mon, 2009-01-19 15:24

#73

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

Quote:
War criminals taking charge of reconstructing the essential infrastructure of their victims

Isn't this essentially what is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Mon, 2009-01-19 17:24

#74

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Quote:
Tens of thousands of Palestinians have been left destitute by Israel's three-week offensive against Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip, the UN estimates.
The United Nations says that some 50,800 people are now homeless and 400,000 are without running water.

Correspondents in Gaza City say entire neighbourhoods have been flattened and bodies are still being recovered.

Israel says it will allow 143 trucks loaded with humanitarian aid into Gaza plus 60,000 litres of fuel.

The fucking monsters probably want to be thanked.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7838618.stm

Mon, 2009-01-19 23:04

#75

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

According to the official logic of Israel, every citizen of Israel and every person who supports Israel financially and morally is a legitimate target of war. I am not saying that. Israel says that:

Quote:

Israel argues that those institutions help funnel money, supplies and people to Hamas, which it considers a terrorist organization, and for that reason they are legitimate targets in Israel’s efforts to weaken the group.

“The civilian infrastructure provides the administrative, logistical, human resources and funding structure, which supports Hamas’s entire military effort,” said Capt. Benjamin Rutland, a spokesman for the Israeli military.

Many Civilian Targets, but One Core Question Among Gazans: Why?

Tue, 2009-01-20 00:14

#76

Hoodeet

Why, yes, silly me!

How could I have forgotten Iraq and Afghanistan!

Tue, 2009-01-20 00:22

#77

martin dufresne

Especially with Obama getting a collective hug from the world to better escalate the violence against Afghan citizens...

Tue, 2009-01-20 01:17

#78

saga

Wall Street weighs in ... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123241373428396239.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Israel Scored a Tactical Victory

But it missed a chance to finish off Hamas.

They think that Israel has re-established a reputation for invincibility tarnished in the 2006 war with Hezbollah; that they bloodied and humiliated Hamas while taking few casualties;

Why does this sound like football league tactics?

Bottom line: Israel has scored an impressive tactical victory. But it has missed the strategic opportunity to rid itself of the menace on its doorstep. In the Middle East, opportunities don't always knock twice.

omigod. Thanks Wall Street. We needed to know that ... I think.

What is this obsession of the right wing with the obsolete and atrocious concept of 'ridding itself of the menace'.

ffs ... !!! An "opportunity" to kill a few thousand more children ... for the cause of ... what exactly?

Suppressing democracy?

Tue, 2009-01-20 07:35

#79

Realigned

saga wrote:
Wall Street weighs in ... They think that Israel has re-established a reputation for invincibility tarnished in the 2006 war with Hezbollah; that they bloodied and humiliated Hamas while taking few casualties;

I call bullshit.

They got their might ass handed to them hard core (surprising the shit out of Israel) by a bunch of lightly armed foot soldiers with no armor, artillery or airsupport. They've been planning their big offensive starting about 1 minute after the last war stopped in 2006. They waited the whole time- waited and planned. Now we're suposed to be impressed by the might of their invinsible war engine? Ya right.

This whole war in my opinion was a pathetic attempt for them to save face. It reminds me of a mouthy jerk at a bar getting his ass kicked when he tried to pick on the little guy, having recieved a surprise beating the jerk goes outside calls his buddies and waits to ambush the guy who kicked his ass and make him look dumb.

They reestablished a reputation for being assholes and all together not giving a shit for civilian casualties.

Tue, 2009-01-20 07:41

#80

Cueball

Yes, they never intended to actually go into Gaza proper, but hung out aroung the outskirts, only advancing after they had clearly subdued and immediate resitance with ovrwhellming firepower. From a military stanpoint, they really never engaged their enemy, merely lobbing pot shots at whoever seemed possibly suspicious.

Awefully bad behaviour from the stand point of military law, or accepted practice.

I like to remind people that there is a former JNA general kicking up his heals in the Hague for doing pretty much the same thing in Sarejevo between 92 and 94. He got 33 years for it, and rightly so.

What a pointless and bloodthirsty farce.

Tue, 2009-01-20 10:28

#81

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Quote:
Ehud Barak, Tzipi Livni, Gabi Ashkenazi and Ehud Olmert--don't you dare show your faces at any memorial ceremony for the heroes of the Warsaw Ghetto, Lublin, Vilna or Kishinev. And you too, leaders of Peace Now, for whom peace means a pacification of the Palestinian resistance by any means, including the destruction of a people. Whenever I will be there, I shall personally do my best to expel each of you from these events, for your very presence would be an immense sacrilege.

You have no right to speak in the name of the martyrs of our people. You are not Anne Frank of the Bergen Belsen concentration camp but Hans Frank, the German general who acted to starve and destroy the Jews of Poland.

You are not representing any continuity with the Warsaw Ghetto, because today the Warsaw Ghetto is right in front of you, targeted by your own tanks and artillery, and its name is Gaza. Gaza that you have decided to eliminate from the map, as General Frank intended to eliminate the Ghetto. But, unlike the Ghettos of Poland and Belorussia, in which the Jews were left almost alone, Gaza will not be eliminated because millions of men and women from the four corners of our world are building a powerful human shield carrying two words: Never Again!

[url=http://www.alternativenews.org/content/view/1545/389/][color=mediumblue]... on...[/u][/color][/url]

Tue, 2009-01-20 16:38

#82

Fidel

Quote:

Not in Our Name!

Together with tens of thousands of other Jews, from Canada to Great Britain, from Australia to Germany, we are warning you: don't dare to speak in our names, because we will run after you, even, if needed, to the hell of war-criminals, and stuff your words down your throat until you ask for forgiveness for having mixed us up with your crimes. We, and not you, are the children of Mala Zimetbaum and Marek Edelman, of Mordechai Anilevicz and Stephane Hessel, and we are conveying their message to humankind for custody in the hands of the Gaza resistance fighters: "We are fighting for our freedom and yours, for our pride and yours, for our human, social and national dignity and yours." (Appeal of the Ghetto to the world, Passover 1943)
But for you, the leaders of Israel, “freedom” is a dirty word. You have no pride and you do not understand the meaning of human dignity.

We are not “another Jewish voice,” but the sole Jewish voice able to speak in the names of the tortured saints of the Jewish people. Your voice is nothing other than the old bestial vociferations of the killers of our ancestors.

Powerful stuff, but I think it falls on deaf ears as far as the right is concerned. I liken rightwing Israelis to political hawks around the world. They dont really represent any one ethnicity but a common cause among the conservative far right everywhere. Their solidarity across ethnicities is a common bond of money and power, well-funded propaganda, and might is right. They are one, and they are legion.

Wed, 2009-01-21 00:19

#83

martin dufresne

"Exterminate all the Brutes": Gaza 2009
January 20, 2009 By Noam Chomsky, ZNet

On Saturday December 27, the latest US-Israeli attack on helpless Palestinians was launched. The attack had been meticulously planned, for over 6 months according to the Israeli press. The planning had two components: military and propaganda. It was based on the lessons of Israel's 2006 invasion of Lebanon, which was considered to be poorly planned and badly advertised. We may, therefore, be fairly confident that most of what has been done and said was pre-planned and intended.

That surely includes the timing of the assault: shortly before noon, when children were returning from school and crowds were milling in the streets of densely populated Gaza City. It took only a few minutes to kill over 225 people and wound 700, an auspicious opening to the mass slaughter of defenseless civilians trapped in a tiny cage with nowhere to flee.

In his retrospective "Parsing Gains of Gaza War," New York Times correspondent Ethan Bronner cited this achievement as one of the most significant of the gains. Israel calculated that it would be advantageous to appear to "go crazy," causing vastly disproportionate terror, a doctrine that traces back to the 1950s. "The Palestinians in Gaza got the message on the first day," Bronner wrote, "when Israeli warplanes struck numerous targets simultaneously in the middle of a Saturday morning. Some 200 were killed instantly, shocking Hamas and indeed all of Gaza." The tactic of "going crazy" appears to have been successful, Bronner concluded: there are "limited indications that the people of Gaza felt such pain from this war that they will seek to rein in Hamas," the elected government. That is another long-standing doctrine of state terror. I don't, incidentally, recall the Times retrospective "Parsing Gains of Chechnya War," though the gains were great.

The meticulous planning also presumably included the termination of the assault, carefully timed to be just before the inauguration, so as to minimize the (remote) threat that Obama might have to say some words critical of these vicious US-supported crimes. (...)

For the rest of the article please visit - http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/viewArticle/20316

Wed, 2009-01-21 00:31

#84

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

Watch as Palestinian journalist Radjaa Abou Dagga follows a team of Palestinian medics during the Israeli assault on Gaza:

http://www.canadiandimension.com/blog/2009/01/must-see-video-embedded-wi...

It's shocking and heartbreaking. So many of the casualties of this latest attack are children and youth.

Wed, 2009-01-21 01:11

#85

Cueball

Very good report. Thanks for posting it.

Wed, 2009-01-21 18:32

#86

Agent 204

Looks like Israel has admitted to a possible war crime:

Quote:
Israel has admitted – after mounting pressure – that its troops may have used white phosphorus shells in contravention of international law, during its three-week offensive in the Gaza Strip.

One of the places most seriously affected by the use of white phosphorus was the main UN compound in Gaza City, which was hit by three shells on 15 January. The same munition was used in a strike on the al-Quds hospital in Gaza City the same day.

Guardian

Wed, 2009-01-21 22:40

#87

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

http://www.wanted.org.il/ehud_barak_en.htm

Wed, 2009-01-21 22:45

#88

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Quote:
The front page of the Beirut daily As-Safir said it all yesterday. Across the top was a terrible photograph of the bloated body of a Palestinian man newly discovered in the ruins of his home while two male members of his family shrieked and roared their grief. Below, at half the size, was a photograph from Israel of Western leaders joking with Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister. Olmert was roaring with laughter. Silvio Berlusconi, arms on the back of Olmert's shoulders, was also joshing and roaring – with laughter, not grief – and on Olmert's right was Nicolas Sarkozy of France wearing his stupidest of smiles. Only Chancellor Merkel appeared to understand the moral collapse. No smiles from Germany.

Europe laughs while Palestinians mourn their dead. No wonder that in the streets of Beirut, shops were doing a flourishing trade in Palestinian scarves and flags. Even some of Palestine's most serious enemies in Lebanon wore the Palestinian keffiyeh in solidarity with the people of Gaza. Over and over again, Al-Jazeera television strapped headlines on to their news reports of Palestinians carrying the decomposing corpses of their dead: "More than 1,300 dead in Gaza, 400 of them women and children – Israeli dead in the war 13, three of them civilians." That, too, said it all.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-posturing-and-laughter-as-victims-rot-1451410.html

For the images mentioned:

http://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay/viewer.aspx

Wed, 2009-01-21 23:04

#89

martin dufresne

"Looks like Israel has admitted to a possible war crime"

Probably just to spite Mr. Ignatieff too...

Thu, 2009-01-22 14:40

#90

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Quote:
There is evidence that Israel committed war crimes during its 22-day campaign in the Gaza Strip and there should be an [b]independent inquiry[/b], U.N. investigator Richard Falk said on Thursday.

The mental anguish of the civilians who suffered the assault is so great that [b]the entire population of Gaza could be seen as casualties[/b], said Falk, U.N. special rapporteur on human rights in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Falk, speaking by phone from his home in California, said compelling evidence that Israel's actions in Gaza violated international humanitarian law required an independent investigation into whether they amounted to war crimes.

"I believe that there is the prima facie case for reaching that conclusion," he told a Geneva news conference.

Falk said Israel had made no effort to allow civilians to escape the fighting.

[b]"To lock people into a war zone is something that evokes the worst kind of international memories of the Warsaw Ghetto, and sieges that occur unintentionally during a period of wartime,"[/b] Falk, who is Jewish, said, referring to the starvation and murder of Warsaw's Jews by Nazi Germany in World War Two.

"There could have been temporary provision at least made for children, disabled, sick civilians to leave, even if where they left to was southern Israel," the U.S. professor said.

[b]Falk said the entire Gaza population, which had been trapped in a war zone with no possibility to leave as refugees, may have been mentally scarred for life. If so, the definition of casualty could be extended to the entire civilian population.[/b]

Falk, who was denied entry to Israel two weeks before the assault started on Dec. 27, dismissed Israel's argument that the assault was for self-defence in the light of rocket attacks aimed at Israel from the Hamas-ruled Gaza strip.

[b]"In my view the U.N. charter, and international law, does not give Israel the legal foundation for claiming self-defence,"[/b] he said.

Israel had not restricted fighting to areas where the rockets came from and had refused to negotiate with Hamas, preventing a diplomatic solution, Falk said.

About 1,300 Palestinians, many of them civilians, were killed and 5,000 wounded in the assault. Ten Israeli soldiers and three civilians, hit by cross-border rocket fire, were killed.

[url=http://uk.reuters.com/article/middleeastCrisis/idUKLM736083][color=mediu...

Fri, 2009-01-23 00:46

#91

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Quote:
Palestinian Authority officials in Ramallah estimate the damage so far at $1.9 billion, pointing out that at least 21,000 residential apartment buildings need repairing or rebuilding, forcing 100,000 Palestinians into refugeedom once again. In addition, 80 per cent of all agricultural infrastructure and crops were destroyed. The PA has described its estimate as "conservative".

[b]None of this will be regretted by Israel. In fact the general devastation, far from being unfortunate collateral damage, has been the offensive's unstated goal. Israel has sought the political, as well as military, emasculation of Hamas through the widespread destruction of Gaza's infrastructure and economy.

This is known as the "Dahiya Doctrine",[/b] named after a suburb of Beirut that was almost levelled during Israel's attack on Lebanon in summer 2006. The doctrine was encapsulated in a phrase used by Dan Halutz, Israel's chief of staff, at the time. He said Lebanon's bombardment would "turn back the clock 20 years".

The commanding officer in Israel's south, Yoav Galant, echoed those sentiments on the Gaza offensive's first day: [b]the aim, he said, was to "send Gaza decades into the past".[/b]

Beyond these soundbites, Gadi Eisenkot, the head of Israel's northern command, clarified in October the practical aspects of the strategy: "What happened in the Dahiya quarter of Beirut in 2006 will happen in every village from which Israel is fired on. We will apply disproportionate force on it and cause great damage and destruction there. From our standpoint, these are not civilian villages, they are military bases. This is not a recommendation. This is a plan."

In the interview, Gen Eisenkot was discussing the next round of hostilities with Hizbollah. However, the doctrine was intended for use in Gaza, too.

[url=http://www.counterpunch.org/cook01202009.html][color=mediumblue][u]Jonathan Cook[/u][/color][/url]

Fri, 2009-01-23 01:26

#92

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

M. Spector, at post #1, above, wrote:

Quote:
Israel is testing a new “extremely nasty” type of weapon in Gaza, two medics charged as they returned home to Norway on Monday after spending 10 days working at a hospital in the war-torn Palestinian territory.

“There’s a very strong suspicion I think that [b]Gaza is now being used as a test laboratory for new weapons,”[/b] Mads Gilbert told reporters at Oslo’s Gardermoen airport, commenting on the kinds of injuries he and his colleague Erik Fosse had seen while working at the Al Shifa Hospital in Gaza.

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