Ontario NDP Leadership News 2

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Sat, 2009-02-07 23:59

foxymoron

Ontario NDP Leadership News 2

whew! in case you missed scout's smackdown, it was a doozy, but now the page has been closed for length.

that's a tough one to follow, but i'll do my best.

a google search of the terms "peter tabuns" and "deputy mayor" brings up 228 results.

why'd i search those? because for some reason, prue's people have an issue with it...

from their facebook page

SNIP

TORONTO—The Prue campaign today called on fellow Ontario NDP Leadership candidate Peter Tabuns to do the right thing and stop referring to his experience as ‘deputy mayor’ of Toronto.

In the view of Michael Prue’s campaign, it is at best extremely confusing to inadvertently conflate the current Deputy Mayor role currently filled by Toronto Coun. Joe Pantalone, with its many powers and responsibilities, with the largely ceremonial roles performed on a rotating basis by the nearly half of the members of the old 17-member (one mayor and 16 councillors) who periodically served as ‘Acting Mayor.’

...Read the entire release at www.prueforleader.ca

UNSNIP

pretty funny stuff. they've got a former councillor basically saying the deputy thing wasn't really called that, it was 'acting' and basically they went around cutting ribbons when the real mayor was out of town.

not very bright. not bright at all, opening yourself up to an accusation you fudged your resume. and don't think the liberals didn't already know about it. they've already had operatives showing up at events.

it may very well be 'inadvertent', as Prue's people say, but any liberal war room type worth their consulting fee wouldn't bat an eyelash before blowing it all out of proportion.

Sun, 2009-02-08 01:42

JMasse

Sunday Hat wrote:

Here I was thinking Peter would have trouble connecting with youth (or the middle-aged) what with him being in his 60s come the next campaign, and a bit of a wonk, and kinda dull, and (as that Liberal ass noted) looking a bit like Admiral Stockdale.

But then I saw this and realized he's down with the kids.

One of the reasons why I was interested as a member of ONDY about supporting Peter was because he actually talks with me. Many politicians not necessarily including leadership candidates constantly talk at me, which I find incredibly patronizing.

But I think what the deal-maker when it comes to Peter is that he offers a vision that is not using just the buzz words "fix the economy" with no real plan in sight. He is offering the next generation the hope of "Green Collar Jobs". I believe that its a solution that inspires hope that we can care about jobs and our planet too. There are many choices that youth are starting to make major political decisions for this is why we see a rise in young activist in NGO's, the Green Party and the New Democrats. The economy AND THE environment are two very intertwined portions of these political decisions. Many youth have been rallying behind leaders that offer this type of vision. Because we are inheriting the planet and all the problems along with it, wouldn't it be nice if someone was going to help fix that? I think so, and I am sure many Young Ontarians also think so too.

Petty politics won't win over the next generation.

Sun, 2009-02-08 12:35

mehdi_mollahasani

I just don't get all this negative campaigning, we should learn from the federal Liberal leadership race and stop attacking other candidates, we are only helping the Liberals.

We should actually focus on our own plans on how we are going to change the future of this province and let the members make their own decisions.

Mehdi Mollahasani

Sun, 2009-02-08 13:37

scout1

Part of the vetting process is holding leadership canditates accountable for their past judgement, decisions, and cvs. It may inside ballpark to some that a leadership contendor diverts their budget to fund his year long leadership campaign rather than paying for staff who had been raising attention to the issues and policies affecting the province and local communities; or a leadership hopeful inflates credientials and accomplishments. All vulnerabilites Liberals can exploit, and undermine one's credibility with the press. Further, while some NDP members may dismiss the Toronto Sun, it is read by sizeable number of NDP supporters from across the province.

Sun, 2009-02-08 15:47

Sunday Hat

@mehdi

My earlier comments on Peter Tabuns were over-the-top and I can edit them if anyone's offended. I think all of the candidates are good people and hard workers. I just find some of the posters here are so partisan in their posting that I have to respond.

Peter Tabuns is a nice guy, hardworking and smart. But he's also not all that charismatic, hardly young and pretty narrow in his appeal.

Gilles Bisson is also a nice guy. He's also passionate and a real fighter for the North. But when people argue that his success in Timmins means he can lead us to a province-wide breakthrough... I have to disagree.

I think that's fair.

I also think it's fair to discuss a candidate's public comments on the record. The unsubstantiated crap that shows up here should be ignored but if, for example, Tabuns is refusing to hire office staff that's relevant information to someone being asked to make him the Leader of their party. Same for Bisson.

I don't think it's the only, or even the most important, issue - but it should be discussed.

Sun, 2009-02-08 20:43

Stockholm

"It may inside ballpark to some that a leadership contendor diverts their budget to fund his year long leadership campaign rather than paying for staff who had been raising attention to the issues and policies affecting the province and local communities"

That is pure innuendo and lies and gossip. If you think that he's diverting his budget to pay for his leadership campaign, why don't you call the police and have him charged since i think that would be a criminal offence.

Sun, 2009-02-08 20:51

scout1

Ask OPSEU who pursue grievances when there is a case - OPSEU, like other good unions, do their homework. Unlike Tabuns, who at the labour board insisting greenpeace staff had no case only to be told he had no ground to say they had no case against him. Tabuns supporters indigination is just tiresome.

Sun, 2009-02-08 21:12

Stockholm

This is an internecine petty issue about which union his employee belongs to. If OPSEU is publicly claiming that Tabuns is secretely shifting resources to his leadership campaign - please send us the link to the press release. Otherwise stop sullying what should be a polite campaign between allies with your slanderous crap.

Sun, 2009-02-08 21:53

alphasix actual

Having gone to today's debate I can understand Tabuns supporters indignation. I don't think they have been given all the facts by the higher ups in Peter's campaign. His whole campaign seems to promise the world with no concrete plan. When he dropped the term GREEN chemistry on on us I thought he had conjured up some deranged image of Kermit the frog in a lab coat.

We need to turn the economy around using a sound plan based in reality. Part of that must be fair treatment of workers an upholding the union movement.

Sun, 2009-02-08 22:07

#10

Stockholm

Sounds to me like some overenthusiastic supporters of other candidates are really grasping at straws if they think they can change the course of the ONDP leadership by spreading a lot of fictitious innuendo and gossip-mongering.

If you think your candidate is so great - then tell us about instead of resorting to lies.

I'm actually starting to think that the two or three people on babble who seem to have appeared out of no where for no other reason but to spread their lies about the candidates are probably actually Liberal Party members who are trying to stir up divisions in the NDP where none previously existed.

Sun, 2009-02-08 22:18

#11

Sunday Hat

From what I can see, the Prue campaign is plenty capable of playing nasty games in this campaign. Don't blame the Liberals.

I don't think Tabuns labour relations are the most interesting thing in this campaign (and I think attempts to compare him to a moustache twirling arch-capitalist villain are silly) but I think his kinda lame excuse adds fuel to the fire.

I'm more concerned about how he responded to the tempest in this teapot. He couldn't keep the story out of the press and when pressed on the issue gave a lame, "Bisson does it too" and then went on about his Rob-Ford-esque commitment to not having office staff.

Sun, 2009-02-08 22:27

#12

Stockholm

If I never read babble, I would never have even known about this silliness.

What makes you think that Prue's people are responsible for fighting a dirty campaign? Couldn't it also be Bisson or Horwath?

New Democrats tend to have a strong sense of fair play. If it becomes common knowledge that any one of the candidates is purposely spreading innuendo - it will only cause a backlash against that campaign.

Sun, 2009-02-08 22:33

#13

foxymoron

*quote*

*unquote*

The NDP has always been the most harmonious of places. In the sea of harmony that is the Canadian left of the post-WWII era, the Ontario NDP has always distinguished itself as the most harmonious of a harmonious bunch.

Just ask the Waffle.

And you needn't worry about Liberal operatives infiltrating Babble. They have enough money to send actual people to actual events. A young, rather unassuming looking brunette who inputs everything into her blackberry. See, they play hardball, and they're going to play hardball in the runup to the general and beyond. What he's going through right now is a walk in the park compared to what's going to happen a few years from now.

For the time being, the knocks on Tabuns appear to be:

a) appalling labour relations seem to follow him around, and;

b) a fanciful touch on the old resume, no doubt just a little oversight on someone's part, but something any pro could (and would, or will) blow up to devastating proportions at the most inopportune moment.

i wonder what else is out there...

*edited to remove stray text*

Sun, 2009-02-08 23:16

#14

JMasse

Foxymoron please grow up....

Labour is going to support the ONDP whoever he or she is, Labour has endorsed all the candidate including Peter all in certain degrees, he or any candidate for that matter is not hands off. All your lies are just that.

What are any of the others offering the realm of reality that is different?

We already have portable pensions, we already want to have targeted stimulus packages with strings attached... whats the bigger picture? What are the plans that each leader is going to do differently right now? rather than saying it wont work and offering nothing, when are they going to give their ideas?

We have broader questions to ask of ourselves as well, like what distinguishes us from the other parties? what says we are worth even being elected? because if you haven't noticed the same ol' same ol' isn't working.

Professionalizing the party will only get us so far. We need vision to make us electable, we need goals, what are the other candidates offering?

Lets talk about the meat and potatoes of these arguments.

Who is going to step up and say something that we haven't already heard from the others before?

Because all I hear at the debates is "the economy" and I think to myself...... ok, yes its suffering what are you offering thats better that we dont already talk about?

Why can't we be bold?

Why can't have more vision?

Why not have more of a plan?

Why not think like New Democrats and know that everything is connected?

Health Care is just as much connected to Environment as the economy... as jobs... as education... as poverty... as childcare... as farming... etc... it goes all ways.

Where are these solutions?

Who is talking about this broader vision?

Lets start having a discussion about real issues.... like how are we going to do it? rather than arguing about who has the best labour record or who fights with who.

What are we offering right now that's different?

Sun, 2009-02-08 23:38

#15

synthome

scout1: You keep evolving during your brief life here from indignant naive troll to mudslinger and finally to grasping desperately at straws. Something tells me after this leadership convention we'll never heard from you again in this fine forum. At least have the courtesy to tell us who you're shilling for. Otherwise you look increasingly like a Liberal troll puffed up with faux indignation repeating gossip with the hope of stirring up a tempest in a tea cup.

Tabuns was more accurately "acting" mayor not a "deputy" mayor. Tabuns doesn't have an EA. Who gives a flying fu**? If we're going to get petty, let's talk Prue's moustache. Now that's a disaster.

BTW: If you are one of Prue's Crew, I would simply ask you to reconsider whether you want to continue down this path of disingenuousness and bitter acrimony. "Dippers in the know" know something of your candidate's peculiar "labour relations". Although I don't see why it should spread beyond that, it could. You're telling me the Liberals wouldn't have a field day with Prue (not that he'll ever get close to the leadership of the ONDP)??? Think "Bob Hunter" & "MPP pay raise". Think scurrilousness. Think hypocrisy. Not to mention whatever else might come up.

Not that I believe Prue poses a real threat to Tabuns, but I'm getting pretty tired of seeing a good man attacked liked this. Even the idiotic comments of alphasix, although disingenuous, at least deal with something substantive and material to the leadership race: policy.

Sun, 2009-02-08 23:42

#16

foxymoron

isn't 'disingenuous' like, one of the most overused words in the english language?

Sun, 2009-02-08 23:46

#17

scout1

You are misrepresenting of what the grievance is about. Review the Sun piece, and go to the labour board hearing when it actually happens, as Tabuns has gone to extradionary lengths to postpone. The evidence that Tabuns has been funding campaign workers will all be there, including an inventory of what his increased constituency staff complement has been doing, where funds have gone.

Substance wins over smoke and mirrors in the end.

Selecting Tabuns is giving Liberals ammunution.
Re: his reference to green chemisty. He dropped the ball on this topic, and now is likely scrambling to add it into his plaftform after the Liberals are moving on their Green Energy Act. He needs something new to offer now. And again, the NDP have been talking about Green energy jobs way before Tabuns entered their caucus. The Liberals' Green Energy Act is another triumph for the current leader's ability ability to shape the agenda.

Sun, 2009-02-08 23:47

#18

scout1

The above post is a response to Stockholm's earlier post.

Sun, 2009-02-08 23:49

#19

Sunday Hat

Stockholm wrote:

What makes you think that Prue's people are responsible for fighting a dirty campaign? Couldn't it also be Bisson or Horwath?

Sorry I was refering to the inanity at the top of the page about whether Tabuns was a "real" Deputy Mayor.

Mon, 2009-02-09 00:23

#20

foxymoron

you can cry inanity all you want. maybe it was a misunderstanding, and an inane one at that. but it's also the kind of bone-headed thing that gets a politician into a world of hurt, and we need that kind of maladroitness right now like we need a hole in the head.

synth, i'll try to keep my comments about your own dishonesty (i'll not say that other 'd' word) in your post to a minimum. As always, you attack by accusing other parties of your own offences. You accuse scout1 of being puffed up with faux indignation, all the while ignoring your own puffery. Like a cobra.

Sadly, if provoked, I doubt you'd strike.

There's a simple reality here, and one you'd do well to reflect on:

Mr. Tabuns has a lengthy PUBLIC record, both in public life and during his tenure at Greenpeace. It is a public record which reveals him to be questionable, at best, when it comes to getting elected. That he was unable to get elected to council on a ticket with Jack Layton, perhaps at the time the most popular councillor in Toronto, speaks volumes.

There are articles in newspapers and on the internet which raise serious questions about his labour relations practices.

The business with 'deputy' versus 'acting' mayor is probably nothing, but i refer you back to hat--it's the kind of maladroit move that will get exploited. and, when you get right down to it, 'deputy' has a bit more cachet, perhaps a certain je ne sais quois, than 'acting'.

Adams seemed to think it warranted a clarification. He seemed to think it was an issue.

*edited to remove superfluous 'and'*

Mon, 2009-02-09 00:27

#21

JMasse

Anytime someone wants to talk about the real issues of who our next leader should be I refer you to my first post (#13).

Mon, 2009-02-09 00:53

#22

foxymoron

JMasse, I'll do my best.

Labour does NOT support the NDP. Some affiliates do, with money and organizational help, but most public sector unions and the largest private sector union are not affiliated. And try as their leaders might, even affiliate union rank-and-filers do not cast their ballots as a bloc for the NDP. That's a problem, and one that I don't see your candidate much caring about.

If there isn't much different between the four candidates in terms of policy (ie: pension portability, etc.), then the candidate's public record becomes even more important. Likewise, voters pick and choose a candidate based on their positions and on the prior records. Just because you see similarities between the candidate you support and the others, it does not necessarily logically follow that the other candidates' supporters ought to just march unthinkingly into your candidate's camp.

the candidate i'm supporting has been releasing policy for weeks, putting it online for review and consultation. the other two candidates have been doing much the same, so the notion that they haven't been giving their ideas is disingen...just plain wrong.

Yes, the same ol', same ol' hasn't been working. I see a lot of same ol', same ol' in your candidate's camp.

Regarding the 'vision' thing, every candidate in every electoral jurisdiction in the world, even the most pragmatic and practical, has a vision. Your candidate does not have a monopoly.

I've tried to answer in an orderly fashion, but it starts to get a little fuzzy at this point. One important thing, though--sadly, there is no 'grand unified field of everything' in politics. hell, there isn't one in quantum physics, i think. at least, not yet.

finally, arguments will happen in even the closest families. one of the problems we've had in the past 15 or so years is that every time we have an argument, the loser either storms off or the winner throws them out.

i'm still here, after all this arguing. and i think these are arguments that have been put off for a very long time that are coming into fruition. i also think it's probably for the better that we finally start having some arguments so we can finally start moving forward.

i'm actually optimistic that might happen soon. but you'll need to be patient.

Mon, 2009-02-09 01:01

#23

scout1

I look forward to you correcting "desperate" to 'concise' after the arbitration hearing.
The umbrage you throw towards my postings could be used as a barometer of hitting a pressure point within the Tabuns camp. The more smoke from you, the larger the attempt to detract attention away from an obvious failing.

Mon, 2009-02-09 01:09

#24

synthome

scout1:"Review the Sun piece, and go to the labour board hearing when it actually happens, as Tabuns has gone to extradionary lengths to postpone. The evidence that Tabuns has been funding campaign workers will all be there, including an inventory of what his increased constituency staff complement has been doing, where funds have gone."

Now we should trash Tabuns' reputation based on what you believe will be borne out in a future report? At some point in the future, a report will possibly be released that might reveal some impropriety. And thus, Tabuns' reputation will have been damaged. Calling you desperate was apparently an understatement. You do understand that assuming prescient readers, even of the many gifted babble members, is insane.

foxymoron: like totally, disingenuous is the most used descriptor around here. But is so fits. Perhaps I'll try spreading "mendacious" instead, but for now I'm more concerned with the basic sanity of Tabuns' detractors than with their intellectual dishonesty.

Mon, 2009-02-09 08:36

#25

Champion of Nothing1

So can anyone tell me how Bisson came off yesterday during the debate? Any comments on whether he appealed to people in Toronto? I think he's a good candidate, but I just wonder about the overall appeal for someone living in an urban centre (although, the same argument can be made for all the candidates and their understand of Ontario, outside their home).

Mon, 2009-02-09 08:54

#26

northwestern_lad

Champion of Nothing1 wrote:
So can anyone tell me how Bisson came off yesterday during the debate? Any comments on whether he appealed to people in Toronto? I think he's a good candidate, but I just wonder about the overall appeal for someone living in an urban centre (although, the same argument can be made for all the candidates and their understand of Ontario, outside their home).

Mr. Bisson came off quite well at yesterday's Toronto debate. He talked about how we need a strong economy to fuel strong social programs, talked about complety reforming disability and income supports and about giving ridings the tools and incentive to fundraise (as he put it, fundraising is truly a communal activity). Also, I saw more than a few people wearing Bisson stickers and I think that he turned some heads.

Mon, 2009-02-09 09:13

#27

Lord Palmerston

I thought Bisson was the weakest of the four candidates. He kept going on about how the party needed to be bold and present fresh ideas in order to get elected but certainly was way behind Tabuns and Prue in the so-called battle of ideas. He also did everything he could to divert the issue when the question of Catholic school funding came up but I suppose a lot of people would consider that an asset.

Mon, 2009-02-09 09:33

#28

northwestern_lad

Lord Palmerston wrote:
I thought Bisson was the weakest of the four candidates. He kept going on about how the party needed to be bold and present fresh ideas in order to get elected but certainly was way behind Tabuns and Prue in the so-called battle of ideas. He also did everything he could to divert the issue when the question of Catholic school funding came up but I suppose a lot of people would consider that an asset.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, as am I. But I find it odd that you talk about Mr. Bisson behind behind the "so-called battle of ideas", as you put it. When the question was asked about increasing ODSP and OW rates, Mr. Bisson was the only person on the stage to give an answer that was a new idea. As he put it, those system are broken and aren't getting the job done, so instead of increasing rates in a broken system why not create a system that actually meets the needs of the people, regardless of why it is they can't work? He was suggesting creating a whole system that encompasses all incomes supports instead of tinkering with the broken 50 year old current systems because, as he put it, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter why someone can't work... All that matters is someone can't work and they need assistance. Also, he was the only person on that stage yesterday that I heard talk about having a guaranteed income for all citizens, which I heard more than a few people talk about quite favorably. When you put that all together, I think those are pretty good stances to have in that so-called battle

Mon, 2009-02-09 11:17

#29

scarboroughnative

I attended the debate and made the following observations."

Tabuns: Came accross as flat.

Prue: Decent to strong at times.

Horwath: Struggles with her words. Possibly not as experienced as the others.

Bisson: Strong. Charismatic. A good sense of humour. Good presence.

A good crowd in the room and support seemed spread out amongst candidates.

Would be nice if more debates were filmed and posted by the party so all who could not attend could see them. One member one vote would seem to require this level of effort from the party.

Am more convinced than ever that Bisson is my first choice and have switched second ballot from Andrea to Michael.

Any others in attendance? Your thoughts?

Mon, 2009-02-09 11:18

#30

scarboroughnative

duplicate post

Mon, 2009-02-09 11:31

#31

alphasix actual

For the most part all the Candidates appeared at ease and some of them even engaging. Unfortunately our friend from Hamilton has developed the bad habit of jumping in at the end of a question and saying she agrees with everyone. That I would assume goes to lack of experience.

The fact her big new supporter, Peter Kormos showed up with a bag of water in plastic bottles of water to hand out to the people sitting around him did raise some eyebrows. One must be careful how their friends behave in public.

Only Prue and Bission talked about the cold hard reality co the need for cash. Peter was of in his world of delightful abstracts and Andrea got caught up on the fact that public schools and ESL needs more funding but she provided no plan as to how to raise funds.

At least If we had one school system we would save on duplication, have a better teacher to student ratio and reverse the havoc that was wrought on the education system by Harris and his team from MENSA

Mon, 2009-02-09 12:18

#32

northwestern_lad

On the topic of debates, I came across this article from the student newspaper at the U of Toronto-Mississauga about a debate their NDP campus club held for the candidates last week. It gives a pretty good wrap up and is pretty even handed, but one paragraph wrapping things up at the end really leapt out at me:

"In the end, political debates are all about the candidates’ performance – whoever it is that can look, sound, and act the most sincere, spontaneous, and smart under intense pressure. From that perspective, each candidate performed well, though many students in attendance were particularly impressed with Bisson, who one attendee described as having the “aura of a leader.”" (emphasis mine)

Students at a university in the GTA "particularly impressed" with Mr. Bisson??? If people are worrying about Mr. Bisson's ability to win people over in the GTA and Southern Ontario, events like these are showing that he can win them over.

http://mediumonline.ca/?p=1074

Mon, 2009-02-09 12:27

#33

St. Paul's Prog...

I don't think Gilles Bisson is really that appealing in Southern Ontario. He might pick up a few Northern seats but that's it.

I'm supporting Michael Prue. He seems to have a very broad appeal who can reach people outside the NDP universe. He was after all a very popular mayor of East York, has roots in Regent Park, etc. He's got a great agenda for cities. A lot of his votes are personal votes, not NDP votes.

And yes, as a Jew, I appreciate his stance on ending discrimination in school funding which is far superior to John Tory's dumb plan. Many in the Jewish community I think would appreciate it as well and they would be more open to voting NDP.

Mon, 2009-02-09 12:36

#34

Stockholm

Do you really think that people in the Jewish community who care at all about the school funding issue - actually give a hoot about whether or not Catholic schools are funded?? I thought that it was all about people who send their kids to Jewish religious schools who want funding for their schools. They don't care about whether or not other people get any money. Their interest in this issue is 100% about the schools their kids go to getting money.

Mon, 2009-02-09 13:13

#35

JMasse

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29084100/

Broad Appeal, crosses Boarders.

Mon, 2009-02-09 14:12

#36

Bookish Agrarian

71,000 Ontarians lost their jobs last month, with more job losses to come and we still have people blathering on about Catholic school funding like it is a top 50 issue to the average voter. If Prue is that out of touch then we would be seriously foolish to elect him leader.

That tells me from my own experiences that we have two potential leaders that do not get what is happening in the economy at a gut level -Prue and Tabuns. Their rhetoric is completely myopic and/or very vague. If the NDP wants to be serious contenders for government the path leads elsewhere.

Alphasix - as for ESL and public schools needing more funding. In our rural school area there is a serious need for ESL support that is not there. So if we need it, I can only imagine what other much higher immigrant drawing communities need. That is a real issue that effects real families in real ways. Good for Horwath for talking about specifics.

What a change of pace from all this yapping and attacks I have been seeing that passes for discussion.

Mon, 2009-02-09 15:17

#37

Sunday Hat

New industries will help Ont., not tax cuts: Horwath

TORONTO — NDP leadership hopeful Andrea Horwath says new manufacturing industries -- not tax cuts -- are they way to get the province out of its economic rut.

Horwath laid out a platform today that targets investment in specific sectors like forestry and light rail, raising the minimum wage and helping workers unionize.

While those values may not stray too far from the party's traditional ones, Horwath says they'll get attention if they're delivered with a new voice.

She says those issues didn't resonate with voters in 2007 because the election was hijacked by Progressive Conservative Leader John Tory's plan for faith-based school funding.

Wayne Fraser of the United Steelworkers is now endorsing Horwath, along with Ontario Federation of Labour president Wayne Samuelson and NDP veteran Peter Kormos.

Mon, 2009-02-09 17:11

#38

JMasse

New manufacturing industries like what?

maybe solar panels?

maybe wind turbines?

what about geothermal techology?

Green Cars?

I like the investments in public transit and forestry thats a good one. I guess my question still remains.... what new industries?

Mon, 2009-02-09 20:12

#39

Lord Palmerston

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

What a change of pace from all this yapping and attacks I have been seeing that passes for discussion.

Yeah, because you're so above the fray...

Mon, 2009-02-09 21:23

#40

Bookish Agrarian

Have you not followed these threads? Almost no policy discussion from any camps. I find it refreshing that policy is starting to be discussed not some of the foolishness that has been filling up these threads.

So while I might not be above the fray - I have definetly stayed out of the pointless fray.

Mon, 2009-02-09 21:26

#41

alphasix actual

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

71,000 Ontarians lost their jobs last month, with more job losses to come and we still have people blathering on about Catholic school funding like it is a top 50 issue to the average voter. If Prue is that out of touch then we would be seriously foolish to elect him leader.

That tells me from my own experiences that we have two potential leaders that do not get what is happening in the economy at a gut level -Prue and Tabuns. Their rhetoric is completely myopic and/or very vague. If the NDP wants to be serious contenders for government the path leads elsewhere.

Alphasix - as for ESL and public schools needing more funding. In our rural school area there is a serious need for ESL support that is not there. So if we need it, I can only imagine what other much higher immigrant drawing communities need. That is a real issue that effects real families in real ways. Good for Horwath for talking about specifics.

What a change of pace from all this yapping and attacks I have been seeing that passes for discussion.

Thus do you not agree that by having only one system with less duplication and waste we could afford more ESL and educational services for new Canadians.

Mon, 2009-02-09 22:11

#42

Bookish Agrarian

The day amalgamating actually saves money will be the first time it does. Ask Mike Harris how that works.

Mon, 2009-02-09 22:17

#43

Max Bialystock

Stockholm wrote:
Do you really think that people in the Jewish community who care at all about the school funding issue - actually give a hoot about whether or not Catholic schools are funded?? I thought that it was all about people who send their kids to Jewish religious schools who want funding for their schools. They don't care about whether or not other people get any money. Their interest in this issue is 100% about the schools their kids go to getting money.

I totally agree with Stockholm here. The issue of "fairness" was a smokescreen. All they cared about was funding Jewish day schools - period. That's why there was a massive swing toward the PC's.

And SPP, I don't think such a policy would appeal to the so-called Jewish community. The issue is class. Jews in the GTA are overwhelmingly middle class and higher and aren't going to vote for a "worker's party" federally or provincially - period. Thornhill and Eglington-Lawrence aren't exactly hotbeds of NDP support. We've come along way from the days where they voted CCF and Communist.

That being said, I welcome Prue's stance on funding, but am not so keen with his courting of business support.

Mon, 2009-02-09 22:34

#44

alphasix actual

For the bookish to brood on:

Apples and oranges my friend. Perhaps if you have a limited outlook like Mr Harris who's slash and burn tactics appealed to the 905 generation. Who by the way seem to be having second thoughts about now, that junior is not doing very well.

I believe that we as a movement have a much more intelligent outlook on education.

Mon, 2009-02-09 22:51

#45

Bookish Agrarian

Really in no need of lectures on education with three kids in elementary school.

What I am pointing out is that the claim that there are some huge mythical savings in scrapping the Catholic school boards across the province is dumb ass stupid. The next time amalgamating actually saves money will be the first. People like you are making the EXACT same promise that Harris made on municipalities as a justification for foolish policies.

What next getting rid of Catholic boards will allow us to turn lead into gold?

Tue, 2009-02-10 07:11

#46

alphasix actual

Well here is some " dumb ass stupid " empirical proof for you. I live close to a closed Catholic school. Perfectly good building and grounds. In fact two classrooms are rented out for day care. Yet a group of kids who could be going there wait in front of the school in mom's car to be bused to another school. Tell me that makes sense. Second question is Catholic math different from public school math?

Tue, 2009-02-10 08:03

#47

Bookish Agrarian

Oh yes that proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that the balance of costs associated with amalgamation of school boards would be net positive or even as big as proponents claim. I am still waiting for the Harrissite alchemy

Tue, 2009-02-10 08:20

#48

adma

Anyone think this is looking like a genuine 4-way race, with no clear advantage for anybody?

Alternately, anyone think the Toronto candidates, Tabuns & Prue, might both wind up at the bottom?

Tue, 2009-02-10 10:05

#49

spincycle

this just in

Feb 10, 2009 07:36 ET Ed Broadbent Endorses Peter Tabuns for Ontario NDP Leadership TORONTO, ONTARIO--(Marketwire - Feb. 10, 2009) - Ed Broadbent, former leader of Canada's New Democrats, announced that he is supporting Peter Tabuns for the Ontario NDP leadership.

"Peter Tabuns has exactly the qualities of leadership the party and Ontario need. He is very intelligent, has a comprehensive view of social democracy and has the capacity to persuade new people to come with us," said Broadbent.

Ed Broadbent was first elected as the MP for Oshawa in 1968. He served as Leader of the federal party from 1975 to 1989. He returned to the House of Commons, sitting as the MP for Ottawa Centre from 2004-2005.

"I am thrilled to have Ed's support. It really means a lot to me personally because I think Ed is one of our country's greatest leaders," said Tabuns. "Ed gives politics a good name in Canada and I am proud to have him in my corner."

Peter Tabuns has received the public endorsement of over 1000 individual New Democrats, organized labour, the Ontario NDP youth wing, MPs Irene Mathyssen and Paul Dewar and fellow MPP Cheri DiNovo.

Please see www.tabuns09.ca for a full list.

The successor to NDP leader Howard Hampton will be elected at the Ontario NDP Convention March 6-8 at the Hamilton Convention Centre.

Tue, 2009-02-10 10:34

#50

scout1

And Wayne Fraser Director of District 6 Steel has endorsed Horwath.

Tue, 2009-02-10 10:55

#51

Stockholm

Good for Horwath, but I think that getting Broadbent's endorsement is going to be more influential. His opinion will carry a lot of weight with NDP members who really don't know who to support.

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