Ontario NDP Leadership News 2

Steel isn't solid (pardon the pun). The Toronto Steel Council, for instance, backs Tabuns and Bisson received a $5,000 donation from Steel Local I-2995 which represents timber workers (and others) in northern Ontario. My understanding is that Steel delegates are selected by the union local so expect to see delegates in at least three of the camps, perhaps all four. Fraser's endorsement may influence the second choice of delegates supporting other candidates, however.

spincycle, despite my best efforts to prevent offense I've somehow offended you. I wasn't implying that people don't work hard and don't contribute. I was merely noting that there is a gagle of former provincial secretaries and party staffers endorsing Tabuns. 

The "Lewis family" is maybe lazy shorthand for that group. Though, to be fair, Janet Solberg was the one who brought the "Lewis name" into the leadership race.

If you have a better descriptor please share it.

Given Moishe and David Lewis' political origins perhaps "The Bund" would be an apt descriptor :)

(Read David Lewis' excellent biography or read up on family patriarch Moishe Lewis who was a Bund leader in his hometown in Belorussia and was also an important figure in the Canadian labour movement as a leader of the Jewish Labour Committee in Canada for many years. The Labour Committee was started by Canadian Bundists and played an incredibly important role in the Canadian civl rights movement in particular.)

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

The day amalgamating actually saves money will be the first time it does.  Ask Mike Harris how that works.

The differences between amalgamating across diverse geographical areas is quite different than consolidating across the same geograhpical area in this regard, but I assume you would know that. Presently, and as I have said before, and as a duly elected public school board trustee, we essentially have 4 funded school systems (English and French public school boards AND English and French Catholic School boards) serving the same geographical areas of population and competing for the same DECLINING student population. Thus 4 systems duplicate the same resources, administration, and infrastructure. Thus in the area I serve in for example, the taxpayers fund 2 administrative buildings, and also duplicate administrative personal.  One may ask this question: why are individual school board's consolidating schools in their areas if not to "save money" and not "duplicate resources" and not "spread thin program needs" of students? Thus consolidating across geograhically shared areas would make sense from a educational "programming need" and "resource need."

Also, I can remember when our board financial super also didn't think that colidation would not save money, but when that individual, using provincially publically available data for our two boards, consolidated virually, just due to all the surplus space in both boards, was unbelievably surprised with the money saved and able to put back into a system that actually put students first. 

______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

Really in no need of lectures on education with three kids in elementary school.

What I am pointing out is that the claim that there are some huge mythical savings in scrapping the Catholic school boards across the province is dumb ass stupid.  The next time amalgamating actually saves money will be the first.  People like you are making the EXACT same promise that Harris made on municipalities as a justification for foolish policies. 

What next getting rid of Catholic boards will allow us to turn lead into gold?

Source for your assertion that there are mythical costs savings? I actually have a powerpoint that shows this for 2 boards who share the same geographical area. 

______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!

Good for Horwath - she is absolutely right and Prue is wrong when it comes to corprate tax cuts.

Jan there are lots of arguments that support eliminating Catholic school boards that are compelling.  However, the pretense that there will be some huge saving, as the poster I was responding to suggested, is not one of them.

Those same sorts of arguments were being made about municpalities.  The agruments are exactly the same.  True there were no power points then, but as a municipal union president I clearly remember getting a nice little binder with all kinds of pretty graphs and charts showing how we would all save oodles of money.  Thing is not one of them turned out to be true.  Those things never consider all the hidden costs of eliminating positions, closing down buildings, and on and on and on.

Stay on the issues that resonate if you want to convince people on this issue.  For some of us, when it comes to the massive savings eliminating something is supposed to cause- we have been there, done that and now our t-shirts are paint rags.

And besides have a look around Ontario lost 71,000 jobs just last month. Do you really think the average person gives a fiddlers damn about having a protracted, divisive issue like this dominating discussions.

Hooray for Horwath for showing the real kind of leadership we need.

Tabuns does have the support of the party's elite - it's a closed, small group of people who have too much influence over the party's direction. And for quite some time now the ONDP, with the elite's influence, have been heading in the direction of a slow death march.

I hope anyone but Tabuns gets in because we desperately need a fresh, new direction. We need party reform inside and out. We need someone that is not tied to the party elite - who can and will allow fresh new ideas to immerge and allow old ideas that are constantly kept on the backburner (like race, gender and student issues) to come to fruition. We need a leader who is willing and able to put an end to sexism that operates within our caucus. We need a leader that is willing and able to put an end to anti-labour practices against our own staff. And we need a leader that is willing and able to take an active role in ensuring our party's most vulnerable have an equal voice, are equally heard and most importantly that these issues have equal weight in the party's agenda. We need a leader who has a clean track record who has the credibility to make our party uphold our own values. This party needs to re-grow itself and it must start by winning back the support it lost by selling out labour, by not taking a stand on tough issues, and by putting less popular issues on the backburner. We cannot afford to take our support base for granted anymore. We must win them back. We need a leader who will not govern by fear but by our party's principles and that is what you'll get with Michael Prue.

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

And besides have a look around Ontario lost 71,000 jobs just last month. Do you really think the average person gives a fiddlers damn about having a protracted, divisive issue like this dominating discussions.

Massive job loss is exactly why we need to have the single-education system discussion. Education is the second biggest pocket that the Province pays out to. If we reduce the duplication of administrative and infrastructure costs we will be able to hire more teachers. This is especially important because teaching is a female dominated profession and right now almost all of the economic stimulus money is directed at male-dominated jobs. A single-education system is about fairness and equality, but it's also about job creation and female-dominated job creation. This is a win-win situation.

Sisters for Andrea

It was Nellie McClung who said, "No nation rises higher than its women."

Equal Voice, in leading the call nationally to elect more women for the good of society, has this to add:

"Once a leader, Canada, with just 64 women in Parliament - 22.4 per cent of MPs -- now ranks 46th in the world on Inter-Parliamentary Union, "List of Women in National Parliaments." ...Canada now has fewer women in parliament than most of Europe."

Until we see women elected with the same regularity as men, the goal of gender parity in politics will remain illusive and women's voices will be missing from the decisions that affect our lives. As McClung would have been quick to note, we have an opportunity right now to "rise higher" as a province by helping to elect Andrea Horwath, the feisty, young and highly capable MPP from Hamilton as leader of the Ontario NDP.

For those of you who don't know Andrea Horwath, she's a forceful and dynamic advocate for social and economic justice - fresh, energetic, incredibly accomplished and an inspiring presence in politics for two decades as a grassroots activist, Hamilton City Councillor and Member of Provincial Parliament.

In the past five years Andrea's work in the legislature exposed neglect in long-term care and nursing homes, pioneered a bill to outlaw workplace harassment, led to compensation for firefighters who become seriously ill due to toxins, conducted a 10-city provincial tour on pension reform and ardently championed not-for-profit, affordable childcare at Queen's Park.

Pay equity, action on affordable housing, a minimum wage that's a living wage, licensed child care, appropriate resources to end violence against women - these are some of the important concerns Andrea continues to champion.

When we review the state of home care, elder care, childcare, public education and hospital funding, and we see the most vulnerable being pushed to the margins by inadequate assistance programs, we know there's a huge amount of work to be done. Now more than ever, a woman's voice in leadership is what Ontario needs.

It's time for Andrea Horwath to lead. By donating to her campaign, you are investing in your future and the future of Ontario. Make a donation online at www.andreahorwath.com or send a cheque payable to:

Andrea Horwath for Leader
1120 Barton St E. Unit 100,
Hamilton, ON L8H 7P9

Sisters - let us ‘rise up' and support a leader who is ready, willing and able to take on these challenges.

You can make it happen with these 4 easy steps:
- send a donation
- send this letter to 5 others
- email Andrea at [email protected] and let her know she has your support
- vote for Andrea!

Let us all endorse the first woman premier of Ontario.

Isn't it time?

In Solidarity,

Irene Harris, Secretary/Treasurer OFL
Sharleen Stewart, President SEIU Local 1
Barb Burkett, ETFO Vice President
Yolanda McClean, Equity VP, CUPE Local 4400
Leah Casselman, Executive Director, OHCOW-Hamilton
Maureen Giuliani, CUPE Ontario, Campaigns Coordinator
Carrol Ann Sceviour, OFL Director Women's Rights
Patty Rout, VP OPSEU
Nancy Pridham, OPSEU Executive
Candace Rennick, 2nd VP CUPE
June Veecock, OFL (retired)
Marie Kelly, USW
Sue Slean, CEP 975
Chitra Kanhere, CUPE
Janice Folk-Dawson, CUPE
Laura Lozanski, COPE 225
Carrie Robinson, USW
Brenda Smith, USW
Women of Steel, Hamilton
Hilda Watkins, ETFO Executive
Cindy Falcao, OPSEU - VP Local 201
Cathy Carroll, Secretary Treasurer SEIU Local1 Canada
Andrea Calver
Sheila Block, OFL, Research Director
Maureen Prebinski, Canadian Labour Congress
Elaine MacDonald, President Cornwall District LC
Sue McSheffrey, OPSEU, President Renfrew and District LC
Doris Middleton, OPSEU Region 3 VP/Executive Board Member
Vicky Smallman, Canadian Association of University Teacher

Too many intervening variables to let  your thesis go unchallenged, Stock.

Lord Palmerston wrote:

I don't see how corporate tax cuts and reaching out to business are exactly bedrock social democratic principles.

So I take it all corporations are bad as is all business.

 What about small business, what about starting up a small private daycare in an under served region.

It's far to easy to chant slogans from the sidelines and make generalizations. I don't believe Michael is offering a sweetheart deal to Walmart or Rogers for that matter. As many posters have pointed out we need to address job losses now, not in some Utopian future. Simply talking about being Green is truly a one trick pony.

Prue's shills offer no end of amusement.  Lost in Bruce County, you're projecting a lot on bile onto poor Peter Tabuns. He's the source of sexism in the caucus, and grave injustices perpetrated against staff of which we'll all hear in a mythical report to be released at some indefinite point in the future but which definitely will reveal that Tabuns is the devil himself. Although my favourite is the insinuation that Tabuns is responsible for lost support from "Labour". Rivalled only by your misguided notion that Prue somehow carries a "clean track record". Give me a break!

MEANWHILE ED BROADBENT, YES THAT ED BROADBENT, HAS OFFICIALLY ENDORSED PETER TABUNS!

synthome wrote:

Prue's shills offer no end of amusement.  Lost in Bruce County, you're projecting a lot on bile onto poor Peter Tabuns. He's the source of sexism in the caucus, and grave injustices perpetrated against staff of which we'll all hear in a mythical report to be released at some indefinite point in the future but which definitely will reveal that Tabuns is the devil himself. Although my favourite is the insinuation that Tabuns is responsible for lost support from "Labour". Rivalled only by your misguided notion that Prue somehow carries a "clean track record". Give me a break!

MEANWHILE ED BROADBENT, YES THAT ED BROADBENT, HAS OFFICIALLY ENDORSED PETER TABUNS!

Well as you all know it's one member one vote so, with Mr. Broadbent ( a man who has done great work for the Party ) giving Peter his support that's one whole vote for Peter. Keep on rockin in the free world.

Is it not the epitome of sexism to elect someone based on their sex? You cannot have it both ways, or have we become so progressive that we have entered the realm of doublethink.

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

Jan there are lots of arguments that support eliminating Catholic school boards that are compelling.  However, the pretense that there will be some huge saving, as the poster I was responding to suggested, is not one of them.

Those same sorts of arguments were being made about municpalities.  The agruments are exactly the same.  True there were no power points then, but as a municipal union president I clearly remember getting a nice little binder with all kinds of pretty graphs and charts showing how we would all save oodles of money.  Thing is not one of them turned out to be true.  Those things never consider all the hidden costs of eliminating positions, closing down buildings, and on and on and on.

Stay on the issues that resonate if you want to convince people on this issue.  For some of us, when it comes to the massive savings eliminating something is supposed to cause- we have been there, done that and now our t-shirts are paint rags.

 

And besides have a look around Ontario lost 71,000 jobs just last month. Do you really think the average person gives a fiddlers damn about having a protracted, divisive issue like this dominating discussions.

 Consolidation is quite different than eliminating. As stated before, the financial officer who actually looked at it was quite scepital before he actually spun the numbers. The savings would actually end up creating more front-line teaching positions in classroom rather than on infrastructure. 

Of course, I am aware of those cute little power points, as a real trustee who actually has to make those tough decisions and represent kids and parents. But let's ignore the difference inherent in consolidation within same geographical areas that serve the same student population as opposed to consolidation across different geographical areas that serve two different student populations. 

I guess your saying that the Ontario Public School Boards’ Association (which represents 72 public school boards and school authorities) and Association des conseillers(eres) des ecoles publiques de L’Ontario who are all on record as supporting one school system in both official languages; as well as OSSTF, as well as the Federal NDP who are also on record as supporting one school system, are all wet behind the ears. I guess that's ditto for the United Nations Human Rights Committee which censured Canada in 1999 and again in 2005 for allowing discrimination on the basis of religion in the funding of schools in Ontario.
I guess it's not rational to look at surplus space in schools, and for a minute ignore the archaic designation, and consolidate based on programming needs of all students. Thus by extension, one should ignore surplus space within schools, overall.
When I talk with student trustees they want an elimination of costly school fees for some courses and for extracurricular activities. Ditto for parents who are now being hit with job losses (as you rightly point out). It is about equity and fairness. Consolidating the best buildings and ensuring each community has a school would leave money for what students and parents say are their priorities, and incidentally that is true for all parents surveyed across all 4 systems.

______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!

Jan you and I both know that you are more than smart enough to know that those numbers are not beleivable.  The costs of consolidation are no different in a geographic area as they were for municipalities (also geographic areas).  The hidden costs will likely outweigh the savings, or at least make them miniscule.  Histroy has shown that over and over when these things are done.  As I have repeatedly said there are lots of strong arguments on this issue- cost savings is not one of them.

And frankly I am getting tired of supporters of eliminating the seperate school board treating those who are skeptical of the benefits as if we are some kind of throw back Cro-magnons.  The last refuge of the scurrilous is to browbeat those who happen to disagree.

FYI I think there is a different thread for the never ending chicken or the egg school debate. Which is why council and our party elders have time and time again closed debate proceedings on this topic.

An outside observer says anecdotally, Horwath is the best choice. 

alphasix actual wrote:

Is it not the epitome of sexism to elect someone based on their sex?

 You might have a good point there.... if I or anyone else had argued that. I was responding to the nonsensical suggestion that electing Prue would put an end to sexism in the caucus.

Scott Piatkowski wrote:

scarboroughnative wrote:

horwath= inexperienced.  With some development she'll be a good fit in a decade or slightly less.

Let's examine that equation, shall we?

 

 

Bisson: worked on a workplace literacy program....

 

Horwath: elected in a 2004 by-election in a seat that had only six months before returned a Liberal with 65% of the vote (restoring party status)

Bisson: elected in the 1990 NDP landslide (at least, in terms of FPTP).

Okay, I must respectfully take issue with a couple of things here. First of all, Mr. Bisson has done much more than just "work on a workplace literacy program" in his life before QP:

- He was a teacher (taught shop),

- an electrician,

- in the air force,

- an advocate for workers health and safety

- staffer with both the Steelworkers and the OFL

Oh yeah, and since 1990 when Mr. Bisson was elected, he's consistently won with over 50% of the vote, which is impressive regardless of what ever system of voting that you use. The fact that he was first elected in 1990 shouldn't and doesn't diminish the win, just as winning a by-election against an incumbent government when by-elections usually don't go in favour of the government shouldn't be used against those who win those. The important fact is that Mr. Bisson didn't just hold in since, he increased his vote totals and kept on winning in the worst of times for this party. That didn't just happen.

And as for the whole by-election thing, by-election results are usually a bit different and by using that logic, I could say that because Ms. Horwath only got  44.6% in the 2007 general election that she's loosing support, because comparing by-elections to general elections can be a lot like "apples and oranges" but I wouldn't do that because I'm trying to be fair here

Finally, the regaining whole party status part is really a red herring because just happening to be the person who was elected to get us to that number is, to be polite about it, about being in the right place and the right time. It could have been anyone who was in that position. That's not an attempt on my part to diminish Ms. Horwath, but in all fairness, that's not a reason to make anyone leader of any party.

We need a leader who can actually build up the grassroots and the party from the bottom up, and the person who has actually done that is Mr. Bisson. Just look at all the new members he brought to the party in this race and his efforts to make ridings stronger in the North brought us a sweep of that region, with 7 mps. When it comes down to brass tacks, I want the person with the experience in doing such things, and that in my opinion is Gilles Bisson.

scarboroughnative wrote:

horwath= inexperienced.  With some development she'll be a good fit in a decade or slightly less.

If we want "experience" we probably should be asking Hampton to stay. Unlike some other "experienced" candidates he actually made Cabinet in the early 90s.

 ** snap! ***

Seriously, we've seen this movie before: Obama vs. Clinton; Layton vs. Blaikie. Experience is good but sometimes it's time to try something different.

Can we burst one bit of bizarre mythology right now?

No candidate has produced any membership drive results.

The Bisson campaign has issued a release touting the growth of membership in Timmins-James Bay (relative to Hamilton Centre, Toronto Danforth and Beaches) and has declared that he has therefore signed up more members.

However, that assumes that the Leadership contenders have only recruited in their own ridings which is, of course, ridiculous. Horwath, Tabuns and Prue have all been travelling the province signing up new members in Kingston, Ottawa, Windsor, Oshawa, etc. In fact, it's likely that some of the new members in Timmins were signed up by one of the other leadership camps.

I can only conclude that Gilles focussed his recruitment drive exclusively in his own backyard - which is a sad state of affairs if true.

Furthermore, I'm not sure he should be bragging about the fact that his riding only 258 members as of last year. If you let your riding association languish it's easy to claim dramatic growth - but I'm not sure it's something you should be proud of.