There are things we admire about each candidate and each candidate's platform based on our own principles and values and our beliefs about how the party should move forward. Tell me what you like about each candidate and their platform and how you think this is in the party's interests. Perhaps it will help our party grow our support, will help us win more seats, or best reflects the party's principles. Additionally, constructively debate other people's thoughts - tell us why you disagree. I'm curious to see if there is a list of positions that we largely agreed too.
They just might be right: What we like about ONDP leadership candidates
Wed, 2009-02-11 13:40
#1
They just might be right: What we like about ONDP leadership candidates
Wed, 2009-02-11 13:34
#2
Positions that I believe will move the party forward:
Prue: His promise to have a democratic debate and vote by the membership on ONDP's policy regarding our public education system. I believe this debate & vote will return the party to its democratic roots. NDP policy should always be driven by its members so that we never again risk selling out our support base. I believe such a debate will also set the standard on how to deal with continuous issues in the future. I believe the best way to retain people and keep the party unified is by having healthy debates and votes which hold us all accountable for the party's direction.
Horwath: I like her focus on women's issues. Male voters tend to be more consistent and loyal, while the female vote tends to be more of a swing vote. The female vote is less about party loyalty and more about which platforms best address their concerns and priorities. Strategically, it is in the ONDP's interests to play a more proactive role in appealing to (diverse groups of) women. Although Andrea does not say this, I believe that we need to invest in growing strong female candidates and we need to invest in their campaigns so that they have a real shot at getting elected. If you want equality you have to invest in it - you get what you pay for.
Gilles: I think his ideas about appealing to French speaking Ontarioians are brilliant. As he points out there are a million French speaking persons in Ontario alone. We need to better reflect the interests of this population in our policy and communications. A million new members would be a welcome addition!
Tabuns: I really like his ideas about having frequent province-wide town halls to solicit opinion from the general public. I also like his internal communication ideas of having a more interactive web site and on line forums. Our party needs to do a better job at engaging our membership and the general public. I would like to see this notion used to develop more ideas about how to engage our membership - especially members that do not have computers, time, ability, affordability or interest to participate in on-line and town-hall discussions. But we have to start somewhere and I admire Tabuns for starting the discussion on public outreach.
Wed, 2009-02-11 15:05
#3
You mean there is a provinical NDP leadership race? Who know? Best kept secret in Ontario!
Wed, 2009-02-11 15:13
#4
I'm confused about just how many franco-Ontarians there are. I sometimes hear 1 million bandied around - but according to Statscan out of 12 million Ontarians - only about 250,000 say that they speak French in their household.
Wed, 2009-02-11 16:42
#5
I would guess there are 1 million Ontarians with at least some French ancestry, but not all of them speak French at home.
Wed, 2009-02-11 16:54
#6
So then my question is whether if you are someone of French ancestry, but you don`t actually speak French - why would you suddenly join the NDP just because its led by a franco-Ontarian?
Wed, 2009-02-11 17:05
#7
Stockholm, keeping in mind that not all franco-Ontarians speak french, depending on the definition (i.e. ethnic or linguistic or some half-way definition, as stated by Lord Palmerston) and that not every Ontario residing French-Canadian or francophone identifies with the sort of weird regionaly nationalism that might be associated with the word Franco-Ontarien. Here are some language statistics from StatsCan.
I personally go with half a million, usually, when I talk about the Francophone community in Ontario.
French mother tongue (Ontario, 2006 Census):
488,815 (French single answer)
32,690 (French AND English are mother tongue)
7,790 (French AND Other)
3,565 (French AND English AND Other)
Total: 532,860 francophones (by Canadian/sociological definition).
Knowledge of French (Ontario, 2006 Census)
49,210 (French only)
1,377,325 (Both French AND English)
Total: 1,426,535 francophones (by dictionary definition)
Those numbers should also be taken in account of the following:
Use of French at WORK (2001 Census)
Only French: 31,930
Mostly French: 56,785
Equally French: 49,755
Regularly French: 242,835
Total: 381,305 francophones at work
Use of French at HOME (2001 Census)
Only French: 164,550
French and English: 119,655
French and Non-Official language: 3,970
French and English and NO language: 1,350
total: 289,530 francophones at home
The, one-million number may also come from the fact that there are 939,995 french as mother tongue (single answer) speakers outside of Quebec in Canada.
Wed, 2009-02-11 17:17
#8
Many of the people in the stats above would be anglophones working in the civil service who have to learn French for their jobs - but i would not call them francophones. I learned French in school and can speak it - that doesn`t make me a franco-ontarian who is suddenly going to drop everything just to vote for someone with a French sounding family name.
Don`t get me wrong. Nothing wrong with having a bilingual leader and with trying tio attract support from franco-Ontarians - but let`s not over promote it either.
Wed, 2009-02-11 17:21
#9
I think we can speak of a Franco-Ontarian community of about 500,000 (about 4% of the Ontario population) or so - and that's the figure most commonly cited (it is on babble the first time I heard "1 million").
Wed, 2009-02-11 17:38
#10
I, also, have never heard the "1 million" specified for Ontario, only for a FHQ number.
The 1,5 million bilinguals can be used to support official bilingualism in Ontario or its current system of asemetrical bilingualism, or the health of its present system. But it should not be used to promote the French-Canadian/Franco-Ontarian/Francophone community, its rights to self-determinism or to in counter-assimilation policy. It inflates the health of the francophone community and deflates the real threats of assimilation despite demographic growth (in real numbers, not proportion).
400,000 to 500,000 is generally what we should be using.
EDIT: The use of francophone I used when talking about any category but mother-tongue refers to the ability to speak in french which is what the term really means, not to any francophone identity.
Wed, 2009-02-11 23:34
#11
So are you supporting Tabuns or Horwath? (I think it's fair to say your hostility to Prue and Bisson rules them out).
Wed, 2009-02-11 23:57
#12
well put stockholm. he is right for federal politics.
Thu, 2009-02-12 00:40
#13
He's right for federal or provincial or municipal politics. If Tabuns were a constitutional lawyer or a diplomat - I might agree that he was better off in federal politics since foreign policy and the constitution are area sthat are totally under federal jurisdiction - but green economy, workplace safety, urban issues etc... are at least as key to provincial politics as they are to federal politics.
I will probably back Tabuns as my first choice with Horwath second. I'm not wildly enthusiastic about anyone - but I don't think that either of them would be as divisive as the other two would likely be.
Thu, 2009-02-12 00:41
#14
You really not being fair to Tabuns at all and trying to damn him with faint praise is very transparent. I'm not taking anything away from the other candidates, but Tabuns is a former Executive Director of Greenpeace and is very well-connected in the environmental community and is a very bright man who has a deep understanding of a range of issues and also has a strong background as a municipal politician. He has particular expertise on workplace safety, energy efficiency and green economic issues and seems to have a lot of innovative ideas about internal reforms to the party. The ONDP could do a lot worse than to be led to someone who can shake things up the way that Layton shook up the federal NDP.
Thu, 2009-02-12 01:14
#15
Scott Piatkowski
Horwath: Gusty and determined. A purported grassroots organizer who could go into the field and work on behalf of the next NDP leader and try to energize youth and females to join the party. Then after two terms the person who wins this race would step down and she would have gained the requisite experience for the job. Then people could vote for her not simply because she is younger and a woman and could be a new face for the NDP but because she has earned it and has the experince to lead and not be led by her backers.
Please, try to be more condescending and sexist. I don't think you quite reached the top of the metre, which appears to have been your goal.
Thu, 2009-02-12 07:09
#16
I will probably back Tabuns as my first choice with Horwath second. I'm not wildly enthusiastic about anyone - but I don't think that either of them would be as divisive as the other two would likely be.
Mr. Bisson divisive??? Sorry, but not buying that one. He hasn't been attacking his opponents like mad with cheap shots and he hasn't been promising to open debates that would tear the party apart, so where is this supposed "divisive" streak come from??? Personally, one of the reasons why I am supporting Mr. Bisson is because he has been above board this whole time and hasn't been slagging his opponents in the press. He's just been giving people his message and selling himself. And there's nothing divisive about that. 
Thu, 2009-02-12 07:56
#17
in fairness, scott, a lot of andrea's pitch has focused on the fact that a.) she's a woman, b) she looks different from the other 3 candidates and c) she was a 'community organizer' like someone else who recently won an election. they've certainly not been the only planks she's pitched on, but she hits those ones perhaps a little too hard for my liking.
personally, i'd be more offended that scarb called her 'gusty'. especially on a day like today
Thu, 2009-02-12 11:10
#18
Correction: meant to say gutsy. As in she has a lot of guts to compete at this level. As for sexism.....I find that arguement extremely laughable given that as indicated below,
"a lot of andrea's pitch has focused on the fact that a.) she's a woman, b) she looks different from the other 3 candidates and c) she was a 'community organizer' like someone else who recently won an election. " FM
I'm stating the obvious. And for the record Scott I'm looking for the right "person" for the job and not making gender biased decisions. You should try it out sometime and stop playing the gender card in error.
Its embarrassing to your team and your candidate.
Try harder.
Thu, 2009-02-12 11:18
#19
The purpose of this thread was to discuss the qualities that each person likes about the four candidates, yet everyone has been lowered to taking shots at each other...AGAIN. Everyone needs to grow up a little. I'm sure a lot of you are going to have to work with each other in the long run, during elections, etc. Rabble already has 2 other discussions that take shots at each candidate, I'd direct your attention to those.
In the end, someone is going to win, it might not be your favorite, but this is a party that needs to work together in order for it to GROW.
I'm sure the Liberal and Conservative lurkers on this board are just loving every minute of the crap that's being said on here.
Thu, 2009-02-12 11:20
#20
Horwath: Gutsy and determined. A purported grassroots organizer who could go into the field and work on behalf of the next NDP leader and try to energize youth and females to join the party. Then after two terms the person who wins this race would step down and she would have gained the requisite experience for the job. Then people could vote for her not simply because she is younger and a woman and could be a new face for the NDP but because she has earned it and has the experince to lead and not be led by her backers.
Prue: Not afraid to stand his ground and stick up for what he believes in. Even if it is a horrible move to try to sell the public on reopening the seperate school funding issue he has the balls to go down with that ship and satisfy fundamentalist dippers who are determined to be the third party of opposition because it satisfys theirnunrealistic world view and gives them a club to belong to without the responsiblities of actually having to form and lead government. That would be way too much work man.......Prue would make a great number 2 to the leader.
Bisson: Energetic. Youthful (51), Magnetic personality. Has aura of a leader. Great image. Years of experince. Relates to blue collar, white collar and all around likeable. Just ask anyone at Queens Park. Would be a good figurehead as leader and could have policy passed to him by party insider masterminds which he could skillfully sell to the public. He would destroy MCGuinty and Tory in a debate. Able to look beyond traditional NDP rhetoric and focus on the need to balance and include business and union as a force to better society rather than sticking to one side always and at the cost of progress. This appeals to the public and would pull in sensible voters and build the NDP. May be way too positive a move for this traditionally self destructive party to handle.
Tabuns: Great connections to some notable faces who did some great work in the past for the NDP. Maybe he would be a good federal candidate?
Fri, 2009-02-13 11:02
#21
Scott Piatkowski
in fairness, scott, a lot of andrea's pitch has focused on the fact that a.) she's a woman, b) she looks different from the other 3 candidates and c) she was a 'community organizer' like someone else who recently won an election. they've certainly not been the only planks she's pitched on, but she hits those ones perhaps a little too hard for my
Well, "in fairness", that's actually not a fair characterization. For starters, I was responding to a suggestion that Andrea and her supporters were advocating that people vote for her solely because she is a woman. That's not only accurate, it`s quite different than what you are saying (that gender is a part of her appeal to party members).
If I can make a comparison (which I hope you will accept as fair), Andrea Horwath mentioning that she is a woman (and the youngest of the candidates) is roughly equivalent to Michael Prue mentioning that he grew up in Regent Park.
Fri, 2009-02-13 15:09
#22
scott, i'm trying to keep champ happy here in this particular thread, so let's just say i think andrea's a good candidate, even though i think michael's better.
fair 'nuff?
Sat, 2009-02-14 00:43
#23
RevolutionPlease
The NDP needs to move into the 21st century.
I do love them though.
Sat, 2009-02-14 07:55
#24
right now, i'd settle for dragging them kicking and screaming into the 1980s, rev.
Sat, 2009-02-14 23:47
#25
I just got an Email from the Tabuns camp insinuating that the Women's committee is behind him. Really one has to wonder about truth in advertising. His camp sure does like to produce names almost to the point of a desperate need to show the rest of the world how much people like him.
Really this is American style PR at it sleaziest. The other candidates come across with a non pandering dignity that speaks more to the nature and philosophy of the NDP I joined 23 years ago. There will be an opening with the Liberals soon so he's spouting green already, might as well take the plunge.
Sun, 2009-02-15 02:20
#26
I just got an Email from the Tabuns camp insinuating that the Women's committee is behind him. Really one has to wonder about truth in advertising. His camp sure does like to produce names almost to the point of a desperate need to show the rest of the world how much people like him.
I received the same email from the following two names and a list of other recognizable women supporters. Unless if one or more of the women suggest that they do not belong to this list of supporters - there are no grounds for you to question the integrity of this communication. Obviously you have a personal bias towards Tabuns and you've signed on to his mailing list just so you can mudsling him in online forums such as these. Really - you've just demonstrated the "American style PR at its sleaziest". I'll take the list of supporters over your negative campaigning any day.
Stephanie Levesque
Former president, Ontario NDP Women’s Committee
Effie Vlachoyannacos
President, Ontario NDP Women’s Committee
Get a grip - this is a leadership race. Political candidates almost always boast their supporters - Andrea came out with a list earlier on...I'm not sure about Michel or Michael. I wouldn't be surprised if the candidate who does not spew out his/her supporters is because he/she has no supporters (or an embarrassingly low number of supporters) to spew.
Sun, 2009-02-15 02:57
#27
I am most surprised by the depth of labour support for Andrea Horwath:
Ottawa District Labour Council
Kingston District Labour Council
SEIU Local 1 (that's one huge local)
USW Local 2251, Sault Ste. Marie
USW Local 8782 (US Steel Lake Erie Works), Nanticoke
USW Local 1005 (US Steel, Hilton Works), Hamilton
Wayne Samuelson, President, Ontario Federation of Labour
Wayne Fraser, Director District 6, USWA
John Closs, President Sudbury and District Labour Council (the North is less solid for Bisson than I expected)
Patrick J. Dillon, Business Manager and Secretary-Treasurer, Provincial Building and Construction Trades Council of Ontario (it would be great to get more of the building trades back)
Against this, Tabuns has:
Steelworkers - Toronto Area Council
CEP Ontario Region Officers. Good, but it doesn't match Ed Broadbent's endorsement.
Sun, 2009-02-15 07:27
#28
Can I remind everyone that the focus of THIS thread was supposed to be on what you LIKE about the ONDP candidates. I've left this thread open even though there are other ONDP leadership threads, because I thought this one had a different (and positive) slant to it and I thought it might be neat to see what people come up with as things they like about everyone.
If you want to do the usual mudslinging (not that there's anything wrong with that), please do it in one of the already running general threads on the ONDP leadership race.
Sun, 2009-02-15 07:34
#29
gilles bisson is a great orator. i think he'll probably be my second ballot choice.
i'll go somewhere else now...
Sun, 2009-02-15 13:24
#30
I thought it might be neat to see what people come up with as things they like about everyone.
Some say Andrea Horwath is too young and inexperienced. But like an earlier woman from Hamilton, she is nobody's baby:
Andrea has worked in the community for more than 20 years after getting her B.A. in Labour Studies - teaching and training workers in Hamilton, immersing herself in the Co-op Housing movement in Welland, and becoming a Community Development Coordinator for a Hamilton Legal Clinic. In 1996 Andrea was chosen by the city's community groups to lead Hamilton's highly successful Days of Action campaign against the Conservative government cutbacks, when 100,000 people took to the streets of Hamilton. Andrea was honoured as Hamilton's Woman of the Year in Public Affairs that same year. She was elected City Councillor for downtown Hamilton in 1997, where she brought vision and practicality to Hamilton's often bare-knuckle municipal politics, and left a legacy of accomplishments as a three-time Councillor.She did more: she had fought her way in a tough field to a starring role in Ontario's third-largest city. When she ran for MPP in 2004, she got 63.6% of the vote in Hamilton East. Six months earlier we had gotten only 29.4% there. And now, despite being the youngest candidate, she has the support of the OFL President -- someone who would often stay neutral -- as well as the Director of Steel District 6, who does not usually endorse losers.By the way, Andrea is 45, born in 1963. Just in case you thought she was younger.
gilles bisson is a great orator. i think he'll probably be my second ballot choice.
Mine too.
Sun, 2009-02-15 13:39
#31
I just got an Email from the Tabuns camp insinuating that the Women's committee is behind him. Really one has to wonder about truth in advertising. His camp sure does like to produce names almost to the point of a desperate need to show the rest of the world how much people like him.
Really this is American style PR at it sleaziest. The other candidates come across with a non pandering dignity that speaks more to the nature and philosophy of the NDP I joined 23 years ago. There will be an opening with the Liberals soon so he's spouting green already, might as well take the plunge.
Yes, I got the same rah, rah email and was quite confused as I am a member of the women's committee, and surprise, the women's committee never held a vote or a public debate that they are supporting Tabun's.
"Truth in advertising is right" and I am disgusted that anybody in our progressive party would stoop so low in the purposeful "misrepresentation" that the the "women's committee" supports Tabuns. After receiving that email, it made me think that first, perhaps I don't want to be a member of the Ontario NDP women's committee (having just been recently elected on the executive), or even wanting to be that involved with ONDP. Seriously, it made me just want to turn away. Let them "fight it out" on their shrinking base. I got better things to do with my time and resources to put elsewhere.
Perhaps I am having an "un-optimistic day" but it left such a bad taste in my mouth that I wanted to "wash it out." Way to go Stephenie L., you just completely turned me off. I'd rather sit on my hands, drag my knuckles, or stick pins in my eyes, than vote or work with Tabuns - the man from glad. Not a good day.
______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!
Sun, 2009-02-15 16:08
#32
Nothwestern_lad made an interesting comment that opening the separate school funding debate would "tear about the party". I question if this would be the outcome or only outcome. Indeed, the aspect I like best about Prue's platform is the promise of having this debate. The beauty of democracy is that it makes space for difference and descent to be voiced. I think it is unhealthy for the party to have a select few dictate policy. I think it is unhealthy that a select few are willing to arbitrarily use their power to listen to some portions of the membership while repressing and shutting down other people's voices. I think allowing such repression to manifest will ultimately result in much more "tearing apart" of the party.
Further, I think such an arbitrarily use their power sets the wrong standard for future contentious topics. Not that long ago gay rights were a tough issue within the provincial NDP. Former ONDP leader Michael Cassidy was quoted saying gay rights "are not a priority at this time." (sound familiar to Tabuns & Andrea on school funding?) Consequently, the ONDP dropped its election promise to include sexual orientation in the Ontario Human Rights Code. SHAME! And then there's the defeat of Bill 167 Spousal Rights to Same Sex Couples, because Rae allowed an open vote and 12 of our MPPs voted against it. SHAME!
The actions of our leaders and MPPs should always reflect the principles and attitude of our support base. Tough and continuous issues should especially be driven by the membership and not by a hand full of people. When tough issues arise, the party should be engaging in a healthy debate because debate raises awareness and allows for informed decision making. I like Prue's platform promise to have a debate because it tells me that he is willing to take direction from the membership, share his power, and listen to all voices - even those voices that he may not agree with. Most importantly, Prue's platform tells me that he is a strong leader - strong enough to return the party to its democratic roots.
Sun, 2009-02-15 17:58
#33
First, Kudos to Lost in Bruce County with whom I've had several disagreements previously; I commend you for opening this thread and for posting one of the very few comments on this thread that was sincere, on point, and unspoiled by petty allegiance to one of the candidates.
janfromthebruce: assuming you're the same janfromthebruce that I know from blogger and elsewhere, I can say that I've read your posts for several years and have overwhelmingly agreed with you. But I must take issue with your indignation and, I believe, your prejudicial, unfounded assertion that an email sent out by two women activists reflects "the purposeful "misrepresentation" that the "women's committee" supports Tabuns."
To begin with, the email addresses the reader as "A message from women activists". There's no mention of the ONDP, let alone the idea that this message represents the viewpoint or endorsement of the ONDP Women's Committee.
Next, the second paragraph begins "We've both been deeply involved in the ONDP Women's Committee...". It seems pretty clear that this message does not represent the views of the committee as a whole, but is an articulation made by two specific women who've been involved with that committee. Not to mention, the signatories are these very two women themselves, who speak as activist women in the ONDP, and endorse Peter Tabuns in that precise capacity. One of the two signatories is a former president of that committee, and for all we know may no longer even be a part of that committee. While these women may allude to their experience with the ONDP Women's Committee, it would be a real stretch to assume they speak on behalf of that committee. Indeed on behalf of anyone other than themselves.
Lastly, the fact that this email does not in any way "represent" or misrepresent an official endorsement from the ONDP Women's Committee stems from the fact that the email is appended by a list of several hundred NDP women signatories who "are some of the other women endorsing Peter Tabuns. They are women from labour, women from the north, eastern Ontario, southwestern Ontario, the Niagara Penninsula, and the GTA."
Based on your statement "I'd rather sit on my hands, drag my knuckles, or stick pins in my eyes, than vote or work with Tabuns - the man from glad.", I'm guessing that's faint praise and I'm guessing too that Peter isn't your second choice.
Sun, 2009-02-15 21:02
#34
At the last women's committee meeting/convention Stephenie was there. I do like her. It was the use of the committee to suggest that Tabun's is their man. It was my opinion that the email suggested that those affliated with the women's committee were supporting Tabuns.
Funny, the letter suggested that Tabun has
"canvassed for progressive women running for school board trustee, city council, and provincial and federal seats."
Not to just target Tabun but all of the NDP, with the exception of Paul Miller (who has actually sent me an congradulation letter), I have never received ONE ACKNOWLEDGMENT from the NDP in being successfully elected as a school board trustee. More recently I was elected as vice chair of my school board, and from the NDP, nothing. It appears one's political successes only count if one lives in Toronto. Support only comes if one lives in Toronto. There is life beyond metro and NDP provincially could be more relevant if they actually reached out, and tapped into these NDPers you have views which are as rich and varied as metro toronto centric.
As I qualified, I am having an "un-optimistic day", and I haven't thought about my second choice at this point in time. Sorry if I offended anyone on the LIST or writer of the email. Perhaps I am finding Tabun's camp too pushy.
I do write a great social democratic blog - centered on federal politics 
______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!
Sun, 2009-02-15 23:52
#35
Scott Piatkowski
I just got an Email from the Tabuns camp insinuating that the Women's committee is behind him.
The only part of the e-mail that might be taken to imply that is the capitalization of "NDP Women" in the headline and opening paragraph. I'm sure that was unintentional.
People use their positions as identifiers all the time when making endorsements (I'm listed on Andrea's page as the Southwest Regional Rep on ONDP Executive, but no one thinks that this means that my entire region is behind her).
At the same time, it is good to see that Tabuns' partner is among the NDP women endorsing him for leader
Mon, 2009-02-16 00:49
#36
I just got an Email from the Tabuns camp insinuating that the Women's committee is behind him.
At the same time, it is good to see that Tabuns' partner is among the NDP women endorsing him for leader
Funny, very funny! Good you have your sense of humour, I'm getting a bit twisted with the relentless phone calls, emails, and so on.
______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!
Mon, 2009-02-16 07:16
#37
I really cannot believe that there was anything unintentional about the the opening paragraphs. As I said before it was slick American style PR. Insincere and calculated to imply, kudos to the ad weenies.
Mon, 2009-02-16 10:54
#38
alphasix: I'd say your repeated monologic categorization of the message as "slick American style PR" and purposeful misreading of the message is a paradigmatic example of, well, "slick American style PR". Is the message calculated and rhetorical? Aren't all messages? Are you one of the new fan dangled empty speechers, not to be confused with Steynian "free speechers" that believe words have no force in the world. All speech is motivated, material, and forceful.
If your point is that there is some intention behind the message (btw obviously an intention that can't be entirely contained, since you're able to coerce a certain reading into it), then I agree. But what makes it particularly American or insincere? Funny that when Horwath sent out a very similar message, there was no questioning her sincerity.
janfromthebruce: I appreciate your response. I think it's deplorable that you haven't received the appreciation from the party that you richly deserve. You admirably perform a largely thankless but a very important function.
scott: liked the humour as well...
Mon, 2009-02-16 12:48
#39
A major part of Tabuns platform is to significantly increase the ONDP's PR. He wants to get us in the media and he wants to excite and engage our membership through different internet tools and technology. I think Tabuns PR vision is an excellent start and long over due in this party. Nonetheless, Tabuns current PR style is a sample of what is to come if he becomes leader. How do people feel about this style? Is it a style that the party should adopt? Is it ok to mislead readers - even if it's just the subject heading and first paragraph - if it gets their attention about the ONDP? Are we prepared to defend such actions? What are the costs and benefits - which of our supporters will drop us and what kinds of supporters will we attract? I'm inclined to say that I support Tabuns PR vision but not his PR style. I don't think it's a good idea for the ONDP to espouse Lib-Con PR styles. You know what they say; if you look like a duck, sound like a dock, quack like a duck... you are a duck.
Mon, 2009-02-16 15:39
#40
Does the new rabble have a poll feature? I don't understand why there haven't been any straw polls here to see who people support.
Mon, 2009-02-16 17:43
#41
Lost in Bruce County: Sorry I won't cede that ground. One of the parts of the equation not discussed above was the role of the reader and the community of readers, which is just as motivated and productive of meaning as that of the author. It is not self-evident that there was any attempt to mislead readers. Only a forced reading or the assumption that readers are idiots leads to the conclusion that the email misleads readers into believing that ONDP Women's Committee is endorsing Tabuns.
My reading is that Tabuns is genuinely attempting to reach out to progressives in the party, and in particular women in the party as a leader whom they could trust to advocate on their behalf. To that end, in a manner not at all dissimilar from Andrea Horwath, he has circulated a list of NDP women activists who are supporting him. The subject line is "NDP Women activists support Peter Tabuns". I really don't think there is any sinister, "American" style deception going on here, especially in conjunction with my previous post on the subject. However, in the same way that I will struggle to negate that interpretation, you're equally welcome to fight to steer it in a different direction. It is in fact in this tension and this back and forth that meaning is created. I have no problem conceding that I am motivated to see Tabuns in a positive light, but I also strive to bring honesty and integrity to reading. I can only ask the same of others.
Mon, 2009-02-16 20:07
#42
Politics is social discourse which brings together the best the worst of us. Everyone has an agenda, to think otherwise is naive. Manipulation of thought and perception is often used to get elected.
If we as a party wish to take the moral high ground we must take a long hard look at the methods candidates are using in their attempt to reach office. Blind obedience and unqualified defence of a candidate no matter what the issue is detrimental to the party as a whole.
Mon, 2009-02-16 20:21
#43
Having seen the email I don't think it implies that he had the Women's Committee endorsement.
I do think it's just a long list of women who happen to be supporting Tabuns. One of the women placed front and centre (former women's committee Chair Stephanie Levesque) seems to be on his payroll - which undermines the argument that this is a popular groundswell of support.
Mon, 2009-02-16 20:25
#44
We don't know if she's "on his payroll" or is a volunteer for him What difference does it make - she wouldn't be working for him in the first place if she didn't like him.
There are plenty of valid reasons to support or oppose a candidate - but trying to make an issue out of an e-mail that lists SOME prominent women in the ONDP who support Tabuns is really grasping at straws
Mon, 2009-02-16 20:45
#45
"seems" was the operative word there, and I agree, putting out a list of women supporters isn't sinister.
It is, however, a little... um, weak if the most prominent signatory is writing the letter as part of her job.
Regardless... I found the letter a little weak (but I'm not the target so what do I know?).
Mon, 2009-02-16 21:37
#46
Got my ballot in the mail today. I am less concerned with ideological differences than with the effective administration of ONDP caucus and party day-to-day affairs so as to assure its long-term survival, since the ONDP's financial problems are well-known and very severe. I have decided to vote for Tabuns particularly because of his experience as a sophisticated fundraising administrator at Greenpeace and as a cost-cutting MPP. Tabuns policies are OK with me (certainly better then Bisson or Prue, and Horwath has none) but it is his practical experience in dealing with everyday problems that clinched things for me. In fact, the more often Tabuns gets trashed on this site for having the guts to deal with real problems in real time instead of sloganeering, the better he looks to me.
Tue, 2009-02-17 10:47
#47
Tue, 2009-02-17 10:53
#48
Prue has lots of cost-cutting experience - and the plus side is he is able to achieve socialist goals and he doesn't violate collective agreements when he cuts costs. As mayor of East York during the 90's recession he chopped the city's debt by $7.8 million and build child care centers, recreation centers and brought in loads of new commercial and industrial growth to the area. It was one of the only places to see grow during that recession. He was able to do all this WITHOUT raising taxes. Prue understands how to make growth and cuts happen at the same time. Tabuns only understands the cuts end of the equation. Sadly his cuts are more deep and painful than they reasonably need to be. It's wrong to unleash Tabuns on our staff with his anti-labour attitude. He brought bad press to Greenpeace and he'll bring bad press to the ONDP too. Vote for Prue. He understands growth and cuts. He has the right kind of experience.
Tue, 2009-02-17 11:41
#49
This is neat.
We're now debating which NDPer is the best "cost cutter".
This is a bizarre leadership race, that's for sure.
Tue, 2009-02-17 12:07
#50
I think someone should tell Michael Prue that he has some rather over-zealous supporters who are trying to run a negative campaign full of personal attacks on his behalf and that it risks backfiring on him. I know that candidates can't and shouldn't always take responsibility for every bit of mud that their supporters throw. The only impact that reading this crap is having on me if making me downgrade Prue from second to third to fourth choice.
Tue, 2009-02-17 12:13
#51
This is no longer about what we like about each candidate.
So, I'm closing this, and people can continue the debate here.