ONDP Leadership thread - discuss, debate, post news here!

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Michelle
ONDP Leadership thread - discuss, debate, post news here!

Okay, here's a catch-all thread for ONDP leadership contest news, discussion, etc. Let's try to keep the thread proliferation down, since almost every thread, no matter what the angle, turns into pretty much the same old thing anyhow - people from all camps promoting their candidate, and discussing how the race is going. :)

Michelle

I'm even going to make this thread sticky, so that there's no excuse for people not seeing it! ;)  (I know, most people navigate by Today's Active Topics, but I can't see this thread being too far down on that list either...)

Should we have a separate polling thread, though?  I think that might be a good idea - I'll make it now. 

Caissa

Why do those of us in the ROC have to have a sticky for a leadership race in a minor province, by a minor party? Cool

(Tongue firmly planted in cheek)

Stockholm

Oh brother. This would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Michelle

You don't.  It's sticky in the Central Canada forum, nowhere else.

Lost in Bruce County

What Hogwarts houses would each of the leadership candidates belong to?

Here's my take:

Prue: Gryffindor because his bio talks about his courage to lead the party not hide from important issues that need solving within the party and throughout the province. Indeed, his favorite quote is "courage my friends, 'tis not too late to make a better world'".

Horwath: Hufflepuff for her loyalty to the communities that she represents. Articles about her municipal career describe her as mama bear fending the inner city ward of Hamilton.

Bisson : Ravenclaw for his wit - no one can disagree that Gilles speeches are the funniest and very engaging. And he's so quick on his toes - as the sorting hat says "if you've a ready mind."

Tabuns: Slytherin because "those cunning folk use any means to achieve their ends." I would say that adequately describes his past actions and his current campaign.

Caissa

I knew you'd have a typically Canadian compromise, Michelle.

 

Michelle

Once again, PLEASE everyone, use THIS thread instead of starting new ones! 

Maysie Maysie's picture

Mm, something weird is going on. When I click on the thread that Lost in Bruce County started about the Hogwarts comparisons (v. funny), I end up here. I can't get into that thread to close it.

Michelle

Yeah, that's because I did the prune and graft thing.  :)  Unfortunately, that means that it redirects you to this thread and the other one doesn't exist.  But that thread will drop out of sight soon enough.

Caissa

When is the vote?

Scott Piatkowski Scott Piatkowski's picture

Now until March 7.

Ballots started arriving in the mail yesterday. Members can vote by mail, phone or internet until March 7, when the leader will be elected. On March 7, people can vote in real time in person, via internet or by phone.

Caissa

You mean the ROC has to put up with 3 more weeks of this... Where's a groundhog when you need him/her.

Scott Piatkowski Scott Piatkowski's picture

Do you really think we're going to stop talking about it after March 7? Some of us Central Canadians (though certainly not me) are Leafs fans and are still reliving the 1967 playoffs Laughing

Caissa

I remember the 67 playoffs since I was living in TO at the times. The party has been in decline since Rae sold it out.

Scott Piatkowski Scott Piatkowski's picture

Marchese has just endorsed Horwath, putting her in the lead for MPP endorsements. I'll post the release here as soon as I get a copy.

Scott Piatkowski Scott Piatkowski's picture

For Immediate Release
February 17, 2009

Marchese endorses Horwath for NDP leadership

Toronto- Today New Democrat MPP Rosario Marchese declared his support for Andrea Horwath in her bid to lead Ontario's New Democrats.

"All four candidates in this leadership race are outstanding MPPs but I believe Andrea Horwath is the future of our party," said Marchese. 

"She understands city issues and small town concerns.  She will connect with women and men across the province and will grow our base."

"Andrea is young, passionate and talented," said Marchese. 

"She will put a new face on Ontario's NDP."

Marchese was first elected to the Ontario Legislature in the downtown Toronto riding of Fort York in 1990. He has served as Minister of Culture and is currently the MPP for Trinity-Spadina and New Democrat Critic for Education, Training, Colleges and Universities and Public Infrastructure Renewal.

The NDP leadership convention will take place in Hamilton during the weekend of March 6, 2009.

                                                -30-

 

For more information contact: Robin Nieto, 647-216-5029

northwestern_lad

Are You Ready To Shake Things Up?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O8fmeAOvMs

scarboroughnative

At last Marchese reveals his masterplan.

Scott Piatkowski Scott Piatkowski's picture

scarboroughnative wrote:
At last Marchese reveals his masterplan.

Yes. Supporting the best candidate.

alphasix actual

Does anyone know when the actual schedule for the convention will be released? Just trying to figure out train schedules.

janfromthebruce

"She understands city issues and small town concerns.  She will connect with women and men across the province and will grow our base."

I guess I missed how Horwath understands "rural" concerns, being a rural person and all. 

______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!

Bookish Agrarian

It is this little thing called leadership.

She has done it by bothering to actively seek out and listen to people who do.  Something only one other campaign has done to any extent that I know of.  Both those campaigns have recieved significant feedback.  The other two have not bothered to reach out to natural allies in the rural community.  Or to try to become educated about many of the issues.  If they had I am sure I would have heard some rumblings about it through the grapevine.

Scott Piatkowski Scott Piatkowski's picture

[Subject to change]FRIDAY MARCH 6

Provincial Council Meeting (morning)
Convention calls to order at 1:00 pm
Resolutions and Constitutional amendments
Leadership Candidates Debate (evening)
Regonal caucuses (regional rep executive elections)
SATURDAY MARCH 7Resolutions
Table officer elections
Tribute to Howard Hampton
Committee and ONDY meetings (executive elections where necessary)
Candidate Speeches
Election of the Leader
ONDY Karaoke Social

SUNDAY MARCH 8IWD recognition (Agnes MacPhail Award presentation)
Wayne Samuelson
Jack Layton
Resolutions
Elections for General Members at Large
Resolutions
New Leader
Adjourn at noon

Scott Piatkowski Scott Piatkowski's picture

janfromthebruce wrote:
I guess I missed how Horwath understands "rural" concerns, being a rural person and all. 

Gosh, it's amazing how snarky people can get when their candidate doesn't get an endorsment Wink

In response, I'd add to BA's analysis that Andrea was a City of Hamilton Councillor post-amalgamation. A significant part of the new City of Hamilton consists of farmland and other non-urban uses. Regardless of what ward she represented, she dealt with rural issues every day.

scarboroughnative

scarboroughnative wrote:At last Marchese reveals his masterplan.

Scott P had this to say:

Yes. Supporting the best candidate.

 

Ahem Scott, You mean supporting the nearest urban candidate who is most likely to prevent Tabuns from having a shot at leader and subsequently pulling the party into a whaling boat collision of a shift to the extreme left.  Good on Marchese for covering his urban constituency and trying to keep the NDP towards the center.   Politics is 85% about hanging on to that seat.

Scott Piatkowski Scott Piatkowski's picture

Sure, if that analysis makes you happy, you hang on to it.

northwestern_lad

Mr. Bisson has been reaching out to our natural allies in the rural community for his entire career, and that has continued with this race. That's a major reason why he's seen such great support in rural Ontario, as well as strong support in many urban centres.

Bookish Agrarian

Sorry, but I am in a position to know in the three -D world what kind of reaching out to our natural allies has occured.  Gilles has not done it.  That is a simple fact.  If he had the organization I belong to would have been one of the first calls if it had happened.

Supporting a candidate does not mean pretending to know what has happened on every front.  At least though you have stopped using emoticons.  It is funny how I pointed out two campaigns had done some reaching out, but you felt you had to defend Gilles.  That says something too.

northwestern_lad

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

Sorry, but I am in a position to know in the three -D world what kind of reaching out to our natural allies has occured.  Gilles has not done it.  That is a simple fact.  If he had the organization I belong to would have been one of the first calls if it had happened.

Supporting a candidate does not mean pretending to know what has happened on every front.  At least though you have stopped using emoticons.  It is funny how I pointed out two campaigns had done some reaching out, but you felt you had to defend Gilles.  That says something too.

Oh Bookish... My world is quite 3-D thank you very much, and I am only speaking to what I have seen with my own two eyes, read about and from looking at whom is supporting Mr. Bisson. That's not defending, that's just stating facts. You're very welcomed not to accept those facts, like them, or even hurl insults my way (as you seem to deem to be so necessary for some reason) but that doesn't change those facts. The fact is that you don't get elected five consecutive times as a New Democrat without having those natural allies on side and having a strong relationship with them. That's especially true for a New Democrat running in a rural riding Laughing

Stockholm

"I guess I missed how Horwath understands "rural" concerns, being a rural person and all. "

Oh come on that's a very cheap shot. Marchese is an MPP from downtown Toronto. There is no reason for him to speak to Horwath's understanding of rural concerns. I'm sure she has plenty of rural supporters who can speak to that. Similarly, I don't expect someone from Sudbury endorsing a candidate to start telling me how weel that person understands Windsor. 

Bookish Agrarian

northwestern_lad [quote\ wrote:
Oh Bookish... My world is quite 3-D thank you very much, and I am only speaking to what I have seen with my own two eyes, read about and from looking at whom is supporting Mr. Bisson. That's not defending, that's just stating facts. You're very welcomed not to accept those facts, like them, or even hurl insults my way (as you seem to deem to be so necessary for some reason) but that doesn't change those facts. The fact is that you don't get elected five consecutive times as a New Democrat without having those natural allies on side and having a strong relationship with them. That's especially true for a New Democrat running in a rural riding Laughing

You seem to have a very limited understanding of what it means to be a leadership contender.  We are talking about provincial allies, not Joe Schmo who lives down the road.

I take nothing away from Gilles, his record, or his energy.  The plain and simple fact is that Gilles, in his leadership campaign, has not reached out to natural provincial level allies on rural issues.  That is a plain and simple fact.  Pretending otherwise is dishonest.

Andrea Horwath has.  So too has Peter Tabuns for that matter.

One has to conclude that Gilles either does not understand the issues, or does not care to listen to what people working on them think.  I don't relish saying that, as I like Gilles very much, but your pretense it is otherwise forces one to do it.  That is the double edge sword of unelightened and constant boosterism.

P.S.  You don't seem to have much of a handle on hurling insults either as there were none in my post.  Only blunt talk from someone in a position to know what they are talking about.

northwestern_lad

Bookish Agrarian wrote:
[quote=northwestern_lad

Oh Bookish... My world is quite 3-D thank you very much, and I am only speaking to what I have seen with my own two eyes, read about and from looking at whom is supporting Mr. Bisson. That's not defending, that's just stating facts. You're very welcomed not to accept those facts, like them, or even hurl insults my way (as you seem to deem to be so necessary for some reason) but that doesn't change those facts. The fact is that you don't get elected five consecutive times as a New Democrat without having those natural allies on side and having a strong relationship with them. That's especially true for a New Democrat running in a rural riding Laughing

[/quote]

 You seem to have a very limited understanding of what it means to be a leadership contender.  We are talking about provincial allies, not Joe Schmo who lives down the road.

I take nothing away from Gilles, his record, or his energy.  The plain and simple fact is that Gilles, in his leadership campaign, has not reached out to natural provincial level allies on rural issues.  That is a plain and simple fact.  Pretending otherwise is dishonest.

Andrea Horwath has.  So too has Peter Tabuns for that matter.

One has to conclude that Gilles either does not understand the issues, or does not care to listen to what people working on them think.  I don't relish saying that, as I like Gilles very much, but your pretense it is otherwise forces one to do it.  That is the double edge sword of unelightened and constant boosterism.

[/quote]

You obviously don't like what I have to say on the matter, but I have an extremely good understanding of "what it means" to be a leadership contender. I am also talking about provincial allies too, which you seem to be willing to ignore, which is fine by me. I look forward to the convention to see in person the shock on the faces of folks like yourself when this all goes down. Nothing I like more than to prove the naysayers wrong Wink

As for your personal attacks on me Bookish, I won't stoop to that low level that you are quite obviously all to will to stoop too. Those attacks say so much more about the person hurling them than who they are being hurled at.

Anyway, i'd rather be talking positively about the candidate that I'm supporting and accused of "boosterism" than to spend my time taking pot shots at the other candidates to be accused of being something else Laughing

Bookish Agrarian

There are no insults in my posts, only blunt talk.

I am in a well-placed positon to know if Gilles has done the kind of reaching out you claim.  He hasn't.  I wish he had, but sadly that has not occured.  As I pointed out I belong to an organization that would be amongst the first to call on some of these issues.  No one has called from Gilles campaign.  Not one.  Andrea and Peter have personally called.  Those are undisputable facts.

I hope you stop with this nonsense, as I like Gilles alot.  He is high on my ranking if you get my meaning, however, you are undermining his campaign by making a claim that can't be backed up.

scarboroughnative

Hey synthome I love what you are saying. I felt that way too when I was in university and didnt have a house and good job and a family.  Now that I do I have accepted that capitialism is a useful system when regulated by the strong arm of government.  Capitalism is the engine that drives progress but it must be watched closely by an active government. That is the ideological direction the party should take.  Strong investment in the economy and infastructure projects combined with  government regulation of wages, executive salary, and industry in general. Support for women, minorites, youth, the elderly, wage parity and equity for all.

The vast majority of the working, propertied, educated (be it trades/university/college) people in this province will never move to the collective wind turbine farm with you.  

I also support rebranding the party.  The NDP is no longer "new", in fact much of its bagagge is somewhat "old."

I'd throw in for a shift to something like "the democratic party" change the colours, the letter head etc. and put some major distance between days of old and hit the ground running.  

 

I do agree that the party must recconnect with unionized workers. We're so dysfunctional right now we can't even win in Oshawa. Party organizers should be standing outrside of union halls, plant and factory gates with NDP memberships promoting the brand.  I'd volunteer.

 

St. Paul's Prog...

Marchese's endorsement I think certainly helps Andrea Horwath and hurt Tabuns especially, who was seen as the "downtown Toronto" candidate. 

synthome

scarboroughnative: I'm sorry I haven't sold out, I mean matured, Wink as you have since university. Yet, what distinguishes you from a Liberal, other than you seem content to lose in election after election? Dalton McGuinty himself couldn't have more clearly delineated the Liberal approach than you just have.

Why do you assume that the only alternative to the current social order to be a New Age, hippiesque, back to nature, collective? After all, why should a "progressive" politics not assume that eventually capitalism will give way to another mode of production, and one that could be as revolutionary with respect to capitalism as capitalism was with respect to feudalism. I'm not advocating bonfires, running through the woods naked, moving to "the collective wind turbine farm" (at least not on weekdays)...

As a democratic socialist, what I'm advocating is that we work democratically towards a truly democratic society, and that while in the short term that may imply working with capitalism, we shouldn't abandon our ideological commitment to a socialism to come, stemming as it does from the awareness that capitalism is a rapacious, antagonistic, and untenable system that only sustains the illusion of democracy and that ultimately socialism will lead to a more democratic democracy.

synthome

re: the middle road, or the road privately owned by the Liberals, or the road the NDP has long ambled along which will indeed lead to "results we've never had before": an undignified demise, where the NDP goes down looking like Liberals (inner squabbling, brokerage politics, poll driven ideology).

 "Third Way" social democracy is whack yo! It can only possibly make sense as a Liberal conspiracy destined to destroy democratic socialism. You see, once you concede that capitalism is the legitimate economic underwriter of democracy, you've effectively driven a wedge into the heart of democratic socialism.

Folks around here, of course, are entitled to their third way, liberals in ahurry, enlightened, corporate loving, decaffeinated, fence sitting social democracy, but I will not cede thereby your unquestioned right to call yourself a "leftist". I'm afraid you'll have to throw out the baby with the bath water if you walk away. If a term in political discourse ever was worth defending and fighting for, it is "the left". In fact, one of the discursive battles being waged in this leadership campaign is precisely around our rebranding as a party, a rebranding that in many ways hinges on the party's relationship to the left.

 You see when arguing with Liberals or Tories, even other NDP'ers, I always insist that they may call me whatever they'd like (lefty, moonbat, hippie, communist, etc.) so long as they don't call me a liberal or a social democrat. I am a "democratic socialist". I take pride in being called a "lefty" and will fight to the end to have that position minimally stand for a critical relationship, as opposed to an "enlightened" lovey dovey relationship, to capitalism. 

The NDP needs to rebrand itself in such a way that it reconnects with its democratic socialist roots and at the same time reinvigorates democracy and engages young voters again. Our growing edge should not be swing voting Dipperals. It should be the non-participant electorate; it should be workers and new Canadians who reflexively vote Liberal; it should be true "progressives" (we need to assert ourselves as a party of the environment, of fiscal competence, of electoral reform, of the marginalized).  And it should be done in such a way that the "Left" feels enthusiastic about the NDP and thus begins to take a more active role in mainstream politics (I was disheartened though not altogether surprised, that a number of CUPE 3903 supporters with whom I spoke at a recent rally, had no idea there was a ONDP leadership race under way); in such a way that Labour and the NDP become once again undivided partners in the fight for social & economic justice in this province. 

Peter Tabuns, I believe, "is leading the way" to a bold NDP I could be really proud of. Like the other candidates, he's a good organizer, tireless worker and a very likable person. Notably, I cast my support for Peter Tabuns as someone who has never volunteered nor worked for Tabuns. Wonder if the other shills around here can make the same claim regarding their candidates of choice. 

In my view, Peter Tabuns stands out in his intelligence, bold leadership and insight (he's also got the best hair and more importantly doesn't sport a 1980's porn star moustache). His organizing talents are second to none. Tabuns' ability to connect with the past and future with the old establishment of the party (Broadbent, Lewis,...) as well as with the future of the party (ONDY) are a testament to his outreach. Tabuns is the only candidate with the environmentalist credentials to win over Green Party supporters.  Lastly, Tabuns remains my only hope that the party swerves boldly to the left. Capitalism should be a dirty word; it is a rapacious and untenable system that dehumanizes us to our core.  Sidle up to capitalism at your own peril. Are we social democrats or democratic socialists? That is the question.

 

 

 

 

Sunday Hat

You know what I've never heard anyone outside the NDP talk about? Whethere they're a "democratic socialist" or a "social democrat". I know New Dems will find this bizarre but it's true.

That said, I find it ironic that synthome's endorsing the only candidate who is bragging about his commitment to "social democracy".

Don't worry. The "Socialist Caucus" is endorsing a candidate who wants to slash coroporate taxes and bring in more corporate donations. It's not like any of this is supposed to make sense.

 

synthome

Sunday Hat:"I find it ironic that synthome's endorsing the only candidate who is bragging about his commitment to "social democracy"

That's because the alternative being espoused by the three other candidates is neoliberalism. I'll happily hitch a ride with the furthest to the left and hope for a sharp left turn down the road. 

I would love to hear all candidates speak on the difference between democratic socialism, social democracy, third way social democracy, neoliberalism and where they would position themselves. 

wage zombie

synthome wrote:

Lastly, Tabuns remains my only hope that the party swerves boldly to the left. Capitalism should be a dirty word; it is a rapacious and untenable system that dehumanizes us to our core.  Sidle up to capitalism at your own peril. Are we social democrats or democratic socialists? That is the question.

 Is Tabuns going to have the NDP run against capitalism?  Sorry, i just don't see it, don't know where you're getting this from.

scarboroughnative

my point exactly...this philosophy will not translate into any form of electoral success.

alphasix actual

Synthome's first year university rant against capitalism demonstrates how out of touch him and his fearless leader are. Has Peter Tabuns been paying his campaign bills using the Barter system? Or has he used his Greenpeace experience trying to get work done for no pay.

Michael Prue understands that a strong economic position based on real world conditions will bring the NDP to power. I agree to some extent with parts of the green economy but it does not employ all of Ontarians. So the Question is what about the people who do not work at the solar panel factory? Michael believes we need an economic plan that reaches out to all in the Province.

Lord Palmerston

Sunday Hat wrote:
Don't worry. The "Socialist Caucus" is endorsing a candidate who wants to slash coroporate taxes and bring in more corporate donations. It's not like any of this is supposed to make sense.

I think that sucks.  My guess is you are thrilled because it is generally the leftwing of the NDP that wants to end separate school funding, while the "pragmatists" say it can't be touched.  

Sunday Hat

Lord Palmerston wrote:

Sunday Hat wrote:
Don't worry. The "Socialist Caucus" is endorsing a candidate who wants to slash coroporate taxes and bring in more corporate donations. It's not like any of this is supposed to make sense.

I think that sucks.  My guess is you are thrilled because it is generally the leftwing of the NDP that wants to end separate school funding, while the "pragmatists" say it can't be touched.  

I'm not thrilled I'm kind of appalled. But also not surprised.

At some point self-appointed "socialists" in this party decided that picking a fight over religion was more important than actual socialist principles like redistribution of wealth. The extent to which they (and many others) have allowed themselves to be distracted by an idiotic sideshow is a testament to their lack of any meaningful principle. 

In my humble opinion.

scarboroughnative

FYI  Horwath said she was opposed to tax cuts period.

Bisson and Prue said they were opposed to accross the board tax cuts but would consider them for struggling industries such as small business, forestry etc

Horwaths's position is further evidence of her inexperience in provincial politics as she tends to paint in broad brush strokes instead of sagely considering that things are not always black and white.

Sunday Hat

I think wage zombies point is that Tabuns isn't running as a "socialist" - not even remotely.

As for the other candidates being "neo-liberal" that would likely seem funny to the bankers of Ontario. It's an especially funny label for Horwath given that she took Bisson and Prue on over corporate tax cuts. Tabuns seems to have sat that debate out. (?!)

Thankfully this leadership race hasn't descended into another painful discussion of who's "third way" "democratic socialist" or "social democrat".

I think the "Socialist" Caucus have now officially rendered at least one of these terms meaningless by endorsing the most right-wing candidate in the race in the name of "socialism". With Tabuns supporters denouncing "social democrats" while Tabuns himself embraces "social democracy" I think another empty phrase can be consigned to the dustbin of history.

Sunday Hat
Lord Palmerston

Sunday Hat][quote=Lord Palmerston wrote:
At some point self-appointed "socialists" in this party decided that picking a fight over religion was more important than actual socialist principles like redistribution of wealth. The extent to which they (and many others) have allowed themselves to be distracted by an idiotic sideshow is a testament to their lack of any meaningful principle.

It's not "idiotic" or a "sideshow." Support for a secular state is a [url=http://www.socialistproject.ca/bullet/bullet058.html]socialist principle.[/url]

Quote:
Socialists have long critiqued religion as an aspect of the power structures that support the existing social and political order. Religion has also underpinned many patriarchical practices that oppress women. And religious majorities have often suppressed religious and national minorities. Socialists have, therefore, been uncompromising on the demand for a secular state and the end to public subsidies of religious institutions. The insistence on a secular state has gone along with firm support for the protection of the rights to practice religion in private life without discrimination, as part of rights of freedom of assembly, and a vigorous defence of religious minorities.

Socialists have also favoured an educational system as a means to develop the capacities of working people. These are not only the technical capacities for work, but also capacities for democratic self-government, and deepening cultural, scientific and political understandings. This is also the special role of teachers in the public school system: they are not merely conveyers of required knowledge, but the facilitators for building critical democratic citizens in the broadest meaning of those ideas.

A universal public school system has been a crucial objective. It is the reason that the private school system that the capitalist and professional classes often resort has been a fundamental target for reform and incorporation within the public system. And it is why socialists have to continually engage in criticism, debate and engagement with public schools and their curricula. Teachers' unions have often been key allies in Ontario in raising issues of both funding and social justice in Ontario schools. Education in capitalist societies has to be continually contested as it is not ground the ruling classes will ever willingly concede.

In the case of Ontario, there clearly should be no funding of any faith-based schools, and this would include the present funding of separate Catholic schools. The public system is already starved for resources and funding religious schools will further weaken it. Full funding of religious schools flies in the face of some of the most elementary principles of modern democratic societies such as the separation of church and state. It reinforces conservatism and weakens equality and human rights. It undermines the integration of students from diverse backgrounds so necessary in today's Ontario.

 

Certainly it's true support for ending Catholic school funding goes far beyond socialists.  But if the more "radical" Tabuns or Horwath think it shouldn't be discussed, that's more a poor reflection on them for their unwillingness to stand up for such a basic democratic and socialist principle (separation of church and state, opposition to discrimination).  It doesn't mean it's not a socialist issue because it is the less socialist Prue addressing it.

Sunday Hat

I'd argue that backing a candidate who holds that the socialist party in Ontario should seek to strengthen it's ties with the business elite and lessen their tax burden should be rejected by socialists. Because, in any sane world, anyone who calls themself a socialist would view this as dangerous.

Of course, here in Ontario, we have "socialists" who view issues of class and capital as unimportant. The key issue is stripping a religious minority of their perks.

As Premier Prue slashes corporate taxes and dismantles the state, the proletariat will rejoice because, at long last, the Catholics don't have their own schools!

Lord Palmerston

I'm neither defending nor condemning their endorsement of Prue.  If you have a big problem with it, why not take it up with Barry Weisleder?  The Socialist Caucus endorsement carries no weight in the party whatsoever.

I don't like how socialists are given the "choice" between slightly more social democratic NDPers who won't touch the Catholic school funding issue and a slightly more rightwing NDPer who supports a debate in the party but also wants to reach out to business more, etc.  

Here on babble, we have "socialists" who defend the indefensible - the reactionary, discriminatory Catholic school system - not because they personally have a problem getting rid of it, but rather "the workers" will turn against the Party.  To hell with principles, we have to win at all costs just like an opportunistic capitalist party.

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