Afghanistan, Still Losing the War, Part 12

Oh, how clever, well, you win! Congratulations. Perhaps we could get back to Afghanistan.

Unionist wrote:

thorin_bane wrote:

I know that is why I left for 2 months. I got tired of being called an anti-semite(theres one under every bed doncha know) because I don't believe the "official" report on 9/11.

Because if you don't belive the official report=hate jews.  Great math.

 

Well thorin, I'm sorry you left, and I have no idea who called you an anti-Semite. I personally called one of Fidel's linked 9/11 conspiracy sites anti-Semitic, because of:

[url=http://www.prisonplanet.com/tips-to-fbi-about-suspicious-activity-on-the...

and

[url=http://www.prisonplanet.com/jewish-terrorist-document-found.html#comment...

and

[url=http://www.prisonplanet.com/flashback-uk-killed-over-10-million-indians-...

and

[url=http://www.prisonplanet.com/flashback-uk-killed-over-10-million-indians-...

and hundreds of other neo-Nazi anti-Semitic racist "comments" of this nature.

So don't get too upset when you see the word "anti-Semitic". No one in this thread called anyone anti-Semitic. Fidel, who tends to swallow 9/11 stuff whole, didn't stop to check out a couple of his links (prisonplant, propagandamatrix), which appear to feature comments about how the Jews trick the Christians and run the world. I'm quite sure neither you nor Fidel would tolerate such comments for two seconds.

Mycroft and a few others made a thread about "15 questions for truthers" AKA the baiting thread. I replied with my response as to why I don't like the Bush fairytale about that day and was called an anti-semite because

"Let me understand this - much of "Loose Change"'s arguments come from an outfit called the American Free Press which is published by neo-nazi and Holocaust denier Willis Carto. You give those guys credence?"-AKA Mycroft

Then we went round and round as to how any and all theories about 9/11 were somehow all directed at being anti-semetic. Whether it states it implicitely or not. Rediculous. Yes some of the people want to blame it on "jew bankers" most just don't like the horse shit that the official story is. I also am amoung those that think it's bullshit. But I don't think it had anything to do with jews, it is imperialism needing an excuse. Just like many other times, Reichstag fire being another good example of a pretext for killing and murder. I can asume that no one would ever say "jewish bankers" were behind the fire, other than Nazi's that is. I am just worn out arguing on Babble with people on the suubject. No one will change anyone elses mind, esp without any further investigation, which is all the "conspiracy nuts" really want anyway. Meh

I didn't link to the sites Fidel put up, so I had no context for if you happen to be baiting "truthers" or not. I don't like being called anti-semetic because I am questioning authority on this.

If anything all it does is further stir the cauldron of the middle east, I don't think we would be having half the mid east discussions if Americans(and us) were not running around shootingeverything that moves in the desert. We probably would have had to sit down and do real work on solving real problems gloabally and it's a huge distraction, the war that is not the conspiracy. Chomsky doesn't believe it, but that is because it would entirely taint anything he says. All his credibility would be lost, that is why he is telling people to move on, it's a distraction to people starving in africa, to gaza, to what we are dong in afghanistan. No way will the real story ever come out because of the implecations of governemnt being even partly responsible on something like this would be in the order of the french revolution again. And no government either opposition or leading government wants to be one of the aristocracy when it goes down.

Fidel wrote:

 By your implicit agreement with the Bush regime as to who was responsible for planning and perpetrating 9/11,...

As I have endlessly said:

- I don't know who planned and perpetrated 9/11.

- I don't particularly care who planned and perpetrated 9/11. What I care about is the barbaric aggression abroad and suppression of democracy at home that is used as a consequence of this event.

- I believe that if it were proven - tomorrow - that Dick Cheney did it all on his own, it would make no difference whatsoever to the U.S.'s aggressive imperialist adventures abroad. It only works that way in the movies. Bush did [b]NOT[/b] need 9/11 to invade Iraq, now did he? Clinton didn't need it to bomb Afghanistan and Sudan and to blockade Iraq and cause countless civilian deaths - now [b]DID HE?[/b]

- I believe that the exaggerated concentration on this event is based on the premise that the U.S. is all-knowing and all-powerful - that only they could have visited such a catastrophe on themselves.

- I don't want to psychoanalyze you. I want you to stop telling me to "screw off" and telling me I'm some kind of U.S. agent. I want you to talk about Afghanistan (in this thread) and make arguments about issues in other threads. I have never, once, called you a name, and I'm not going to start now. But I reserve the right to mercilessly ridicule your [b]posts[/b] if warranted.

Unionist wrote:

Fidel wrote:

 By your implicit agreement with the Bush regime as to who was responsible for planning and perpetrating 9/11,...

As I have endlessly said:

- I don't know who planned and perpetrated 9/11.

- I don't particularly care who planned and perpetrated 9/11. What I care about is the barbaric aggression abroad and suppression of democracy at home that is used as a consequence of this event.

Well for someone who claims not to care, youve certainly gone out of your way to attack me for expressing my point of view as to who was responsible. And I dont appreciate your personal attacks and derogatory comments in steering this and other threads off into the rhubarb patch.

Quote:

- I believe that if it were proven - tomorrow - that Dick Cheney did it all on his own, it would make no difference whatsoever to the U.S.'s aggressive imperialist adventures abroad. It only works that way in the movies.

Well that's your personal opinion. If anything, it's been said that Republican Conservatives are viewed by Americans as being tough on foreign policy in the best interests of Americans. But we all know, as American academics like Michael Parenti has said, that what Americans believe their governments have been up to abroad and how they are misled by corporate-owned news media on the same subject is a lesson in fascism.

Bush's credibility was said to be most damaged by his government's failure to protect and aid Americans during the Katrina disaster. 9/11 was also a disaster for which the Bush regime deliberately failed to protect ordinary US citizens from harm. So I think youre wrong, and that the American people would turn against both warmongering plutocratic parties if the truth was known about 9/11. Theyre hiding behind "national security" as the reason why very little evidence was produced there in US courts of law and in Europe. Higher ups in German intel have said they think it was an inside job. There are 9/11 Commissioners themselves saying it was a coverup.

Quote:

Bush did [b]NOT[/b] need 9/11 to invade Iraq, now did he?

He was quoted as saying they needed a plan to bomb Iraq. It was a vendetta against Saddam that dates back to that former CIA frontman's betrayal of Bush's father. Bush Sr and Maggie also lied to their respective houses of parliament concerning who aided and abetted Saddam's Iraq in that country's war with Iran and orchestrated by the west.

Quote:

Clinton didn't need it to bomb Afghanistan and Sudan and to blockade Iraq and cause countless civilian deaths - now [b]DID HE?[/b]

The former Clinton regime are war criminals, too. [url=http://rpc.senate.gov/releases/1997/iran.htm][color=red][b][u]The republican senate committee web site[/u][/b][/color][/url] documents "Liberal" Democrat deep state involvement in aiding and abetting al Qa'eda wing of the CIA in Central Asia and Balkans well past 1992. Democrats also make similar accusations against Republican governments since Reagan escalated funding and arming of mujahideen militants during the war in 1980's Afghanistan.

Clinton-Approved Iranian Arms Transfers Help Turn Bosnia into Militant Islamic Base

Quote:

The Clinton administration’s ‘hands-on’ involvement with the Islamic network’s arms pipeline included inspections of missiles from Iran by U.S. government officials … the Third World Relief Agency (TWRA), a Sudan-based, phoney humanitarian organization … has been a major link in the arms pipeline to Bosnia. … TWRA is believed to be connected with such fixtures of the Islamic terror network as Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman (the convicted mastermind behind the 1993 World Trade Centre bombing) and Osama bin Laden, a wealthy Saudi émigré believed to bankroll numerous militant groups. (Congressional Press Release, Republican, Party Committee (RPC), U.S. Congress, Clinton-Approved Iranian Arms Transfers Help Turn Bosnia into Militant Islamic Base, Washington DC, 16 January 1997. The original document is on the website of the U.S. Senate Republican Party Committee (Senator Larry Craig)

Quote:

- I believe that the exaggerated concentration on this event is based on the premise that the U.S. is all-knowing and all-powerful - that only they could have visited such a catastrophe on themselves.

Quote:

"When the same mistakes are repeated over and over again, it's time to consider the possibility that they are not mistakes at all." -- Naomi Klein

Hawks are crazy like foxes, unionist. Naomi Klein also observes about the criminal bombing and invasion of Iraq, a repetition of Israel's increasingly elaborate, violent and apparently goalless occupation of Palestine. There are goals, and today's chickenhawks needed a replacement enemy for the Soviet Union. Gore Vidal said that the Soviets stabbed the military-industrial complex in the back by ceding the cold war. "al Qa'eda" is a phony enemy, and just another gladio wing of the CIA.

And no need for worry, bc youre too little to psychoanalyse me.

Slumberjack wrote:

Fidel wrote:

And no need for worry, bc youre too little to psychoanalyse me.

And a little too late.

Your backup has arrived, unionist. And, no, he's not a US or Canadian academic or former US government official on the matter or even an independent investigative news journalist for the counter-truth movement, but youll have to make do. 

Slumberjack wrote:

We need a conspiracy forum, to act as an irresistible vortex for the believers, a flush bowl if you will.  Preferably one that will draw them away from the grown up sections and on to things that will keep them pre-occupied.

Arent there pro-USA web sites out there where the lunatic rightwing fringe congregate and basically nod up and down in rapid agreement with one another?  

HUAC wrote:

Great Idea! I'm certain these people would appreciate the opportunity to polish their tinfoil headwear.

http://www.mp911truth.org/

Quote:

"As medical professionals, we are trained in science and logical reasoning. We are appalled by the lack of scientific rigor and the substantial omissions and blatant distortions in the official account of 9/11 as embodied in the 9/11 Commission Report and related government documents. We join with other organizations of professionals, such as Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, Pilots for 9/11 Truth, Firefighters for 9/11 Truth, and Lawyers for 9/11 Truth, and millions of individual citizens in demanding a thorough, impartial, open and transparent reinvestigation of the terrorist acts of 9/11."

Paul Dewar never stops peddling the right-wing line, on every issue. Now he's pledging non-military partnership with the U.S. in Afghanistan. That's not the NDP's position, but that has never stopped him before.

And he's on his knees:

Quote:

While it's a good sign Obama picked Canada as his first foreign destination, he said the tough job will be keeping his attention.

"What we all want is to make sure we're not forgotten after the wheels are up from the airport here in Ottawa," he said.

The U.S. won't forget you, Paul.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5236a2.htm

"Landmines and unexploded ordnance (UXO) pose a substantial public health risk (1,2). Approximately 60--70 million landmines are scattered in approximately 70 countries (3), and an estimated 24,000 persons, mostly civilians, are killed or injured annually by landmines and UXO (4). In Afghanistan, approximately 5--7 million landmines are scattered throughout the country (4). During 2000--2001, Afghanistan had the highest number of reported landmine and UXO casualties in the world (5). This report presents analyses of surveillance data on landmine- and UXO-related injuries in Afghanistan during January 1997--September 2002, which indicate that the proportion of victims injured by UXO increased during this time, compared with the proportion injured by landmines. The majority (61%) of adult victims were injured by landmines, and the majority (66%) of children and adolescents were injured by UXO. Mine-risk education programs should focus on UXO hazards for children and on landmine hazards for adults and should address age-specific risk behaviors."

______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.

Quote:

The War and Combat Mission in Afghanistan Jack Layton and the New Democrats will:

Withdraw all Canadian forces from the Afghanistan combat mission, with reasonable advance notice and in consultation with our allies.

Ensure that Canada delivers on the aid and development assistance commitment made through the Afghanistan Compact.

Ensure that women and human rights groups in Afghanistan can access Canadian development dollars, and that corruption at all levels of government is addressed effectively.

Ensure that the United Nations, not NATO or the US, becomes the lead organization in the provision of security and development assistance in Afghanistan.

Explore and promote opportunities for negotiating peace at the national, regional and international levels, in line with proposals made by the President of Afghanistan and leading security experts.

The section regarding the withdrawal of Canadian forces from the "combat mission" is dishonest.  It makes no specific mention of re-employing those withdrawn combat troops as combat postured security guards for the delivery of aid and reconstruction.  Why don't they just come clean and say they want to employ the CF in another role in Afghanistan, as blackwateresque security guards for reconstruction in 'safer areas' of the country, where the prime beneficiaries will be the corrupt warlords and their politicians?

Fidel can you link one of those articles for me of the Northern Alliance Commanders selling arms to the Taliban.

______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.

Slumberjack wrote:

The section regarding the withdrawal of Canadian forces from the "combat mission" is dishonest.  It makes no specific mention of re-employing those withdrawn combat troops as combat postured security guards for the delivery of aid and reconstruction.  Why don't they just come clean and say they want to employ the CF in another role in Afghanistan, as blackwateresque security guards for reconstruction in 'safer areas' of the country, where the prime beneficiaries will be the corrupt warlords and their politicians?

This does not really matter for the most part, the army is broken and will likely be for a decade.  

______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.

http://www.icbl.org/lm/2008/countries/afghanistan.php

2007, Landmine Monitor identified at least 811 new casualties due to mines, ERW and victim-activated IEDs in Afghanistan, including 208 killed, 601 injured, and two whose status was unknown. Of these, MACA recorded 750 casualties in 435 incidents (172 killed, 576 injured and two unknown). MACA data did not include information on foreign nationals and limited information on people injured by victim-activated IEDs, as it considered this a security issue outside the scope of its operations.[94] Landmine Monitor media analysis identified at least 61 additional casualties from 22 incidents (36 killed and 25 injured), including 38 civilians and 23 foreign soldiers from Canada, Denmark, the Netherlands, Spain, the United Kingdom, and the United States.[95] Handicap International (HI) recorded 74 mine/ERW casualties in Kandahar province in 2007 and all were included in the MACA database.[96]

Analysis of MACA casualty data for 2007 shows that most mine/ERW/IED casualties were civilian (593), 45 were deminers,[97] 37 were from the Afghan National Security Forces (two under age 18), and the status of 75 was unknown (including 33 children). Children constituted 48% of civilian casualties.

The most common activity at the time of the incident was traveling (159), followed by playing/recreation (106), unknown (87), and tending animals (86). Fewer incidents were caused by tampering (39). No casualties were reported in five provinces (Daykondi, Ghor, Nimruz, Nuristan, and Panjsheer). Most incidents occurred in the conflict-ridden provinces of Kandahar (163) and Helmand (90), followed by Kabul (67), Parwan (56), and Herat (40). Only 3% of casualties reported receiving mine/ERW RE and 55% stated they had not received RE; for the remaining casualties (312, 42%) this information was not known. Almost three-quarters of casualties happened in areas that were not marked, including 123 of the antipersonnel and 118 of the antivehicle mine casualties.[98]

NATO's International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) reported that they maintained records on discovered and detonated IEDs, including IED casualties, reported to them. In 2007, it received reports of 20 ISAF soldiers and 120 civilians killed by IEDs, and 150 ISAF soldiers and 350 civilians injured. The type of IED used (command-detonated or victim-activated) was not known for the majority of casualties. At least 10 ISAF soldiers and 10 Afghan civilians were killed, and 40 ISAF soldiers and 15 civilians injured, by victim-activated IEDs. The majority of incidents occurred in eastern and southern Afghanistan.[99] The US Department of Defense reported that 25 US military personnel were killed in incidents involving IEDs. One soldier died from a landmine explosion.[100] These casualties have not been included in the total as insufficient detail was available for cross-checking.

There continued to be a decrease in recorded casualties in 2007. It was reported that there were on average 60 casualties per month in 2007, down from 138 per month in 2001.[101] In 2006, MACA recorded 893 casualties (133 killed, 759 injured, and one unknown);[102] the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) recorded 796 casualties for the same period.[103] However, when comparing the two databases for 2006, it is possible that there were up to 1,053 casualties in 658 incidents (150 killed, 902 injured and one unspecified); 640 casualties were recorded both by the ICRC and MACA. However, MACA recorded 253 additional casualties which were not in the ICRC database and 160 casualties were only recorded by the ICRC.[104] MACA stated that due to ongoing conflict and inaccessibility of the conflict areas, casualties were likely to be under-reported, especially in southern Afghanistan.[105]

In 2007, there were significant changes in the location, activity, and device type causing incidents compared to 2006. While the number of casualties due to antipersonnel mines remained relatively constant, casualties due to antivehicle mines, usually while traveling, doubled (from 10% to 20%). Most of the antivehicle mine incidents occurred in Helmand and Kandahar provinces (109 of 156) which supports evidence of new mine use. The number of casualties due to submunitions increased in 2007 (from 2% to 4%), and the percentage of casualties due to other ERW decreased (from 40% to 32%). Casualties due to tampering decreased by 88% (from 177 to 39), especially among children, probably due to an increased RE focus on this issue. The number of casualties occurring while traveling nearly doubled (from 90 to 159). In 2007, casualties continued to decrease sharply in Herat (from 127 to 40) probably due to clearance activities. In Kandahar, casualties continued to increase to nearly a quarter of all casualties (from 15% to 22%). Elsewhere casualty rates remained relatively constant. Child casualties decreased in 2007 (from 52% to 43%), but boys continued to constitute a similar percentage of casualties.[106]

Casualties continued to be reported in 2008, with at least 371 casualties recorded by Landmine Monitor as of 23 June 2008 (88 killed, 282 injured and one unspecified). Of these, MACA recorded 331 (69 killed, 261 injured and one unspecified), including 294 civilians, 11 deminers, 17 Afghan National Security Forces (including three children), and nine unknown. More than half of the casualties were children (181), including 154 boys. ERW caused 136 casualties (including three submunition casualties), antipersonnel mines 67, and antivehicle mines 47. The other casualties were caused by fuzes, booby-traps, or unknown devices. Most casualties occurred in Kandahar (61), Baghlan (42, more than the whole of 2007), and Helmand (31) provinces.[107] Landmine Monitor identified 40 additional casualties (19 killed and 21 injured) including three Afghan civilians, four Canadian deminers, 17 foreign military, nine Afghan police and seven Taliban.[108]

In 2008, ISAF noted that the number of victim-activated IED incidents increased sharply compared to 2007. From 1 January to 22 May 2008, 310 victim-activated IED cases were reported; of these 120 detonated. ISAF recorded 10 ISAF soldiers and 10 Afghan civilians killed, and 75 ISAF soldiers and 20 civilians injured by victim-activated IEDs for this period.[109] From 1 January to 1 July 2008, the US Department of Defense reported 31 US military personnel killed as a result of IED attacks.[110]

______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.

Webgear wrote:

  This does not really matter for the most part, the army is broken and will likely be for a decade.

True, but what matters is a two faced party engaged in a shell game with their policy on Afghanistan.  A pattern in other policy areas to be sure.

Here is my view on politics.

All political parties are controlled by special interest groups; every party receives guidance and direction from the hidden masters behind the stage curtain.

Political ideology and theory look good on paper however those practices are never used by the leadership of the party.

When I was a teenager, I though communism was the right path however after some in depth research I realized it was never really practiced by those that claimed they were communist.

______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.

Fidel, release yourself, be free. Politics is only about power and control, all politicians are the same, they all seek power and by any means necessary.

There is no difference in between them, they are all educated at the same schools, they all have the same contacts and friends, they all want to rule.

______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.

Closing for length.