I didn't ask how you would blame them for the war itself,
Did the federal Liberals drag Canada into crazy George's phony war in Afghanistan or not? It's a simple question, slippery.
Should the left split from the NDP? (Part 2)
Fri, 2009-02-27 19:35
#102
Fri, 2009-02-27 19:46
#103
I didn't ask how you would blame them for the war itself,
Did the federal Liberals drag Canada into crazy George's phony war in Afghanistan or not? It's a simple question, slippery.
Yes, but "the Liberals also do it" isn't really an answer, especiallywhen a big part of this thread is about looking for alternatives. If the NDP did everything the Liberals did, there wouldn't be a point to having an NDP, would there be? If all the other parties jumped off a bridge...
Did the Manitoba NDP plant the yellow ribbon garden outside the Manitoba legislature, support Red Friday rallies, and partner with Sears, Rona and Wal-Mart to poison young minds with yellow ribbon bullshit or not? It's a simple question, slippery.
Fri, 2009-02-27 19:59
#104
I didn't ask how you would blame them for the war itself,
Did the federal Liberals drag Canada into crazy George's phony war in Afghanistan or not? It's a simple question, slippery.
Yes, but "the Liberals also do it" isn't really an answer, especiallywhen a big part of this thread is about looking for alternatives. If the NDP did everything the Liberals did, there wouldn't be a point to having an NDP, would there be? If all the other parties jumped off a bridge...
Provincial NDP governments have no power to volunteer Canadian troops to Crazy Jorge de la Yayo-led phony wars in Central Asia.
It was federal Liberals under crazy Jean Chretien who sent Canadian troops to Afghanistan, and Paulie Pockets Martin basically lied to parliament as to what the new role would be for Canadians relieving US imperial troops in the colonial outpost province of Kandahar in the stan.
The federal NDP voted against mission extension in Afghanistan, whereas the Liberals voted with the Tories on their vicious toadying to the US in Afghanistan. Conclusion?
Tories = Liberals and vice versa
Fri, 2009-02-27 20:25
#105
I think we're having communication issues here.
bush is gone asked how the NDP could do three things, one of which was support for the war in Afghanistan.
You said that those three things were the result of 30 years of Liberal and Conservative government.
I just want to know how you blame the provincial NDP's support for war in Afghanistan, as evidenced by the yellow ribbon garden, support for Red Fridays (why is it easier to get an NDP MLA to speak at pro-war events than anti-war events?), and partnering with Sears, Rona and Wal-Mart to put yellow ribbons in schools, on the federal Liberals.
Provincial NDP governments have no power to volunteer Canadian troops to Crazy Jorge de la Yayo-led phony wars in Central Asia.
Good thing too, because they would.
Fri, 2009-02-27 20:33
#106
The federal NDP voted against extending Canadian troop occupation in Afghanistan to 2011. And that's because it's a federal matter, like when the federal Liberals peeled several billion dollars from PSE beginning in 1993. Hey, that even rhymes.
How did your Liberals vote? On prolonging Canadian troop presence in Afghanistan, that is?
Fri, 2009-02-27 21:15
#107
???????????
A yellow ribbon campaign is evidence of Gary Doer's militarism?
Fri, 2009-02-27 21:29
#108
I think we're having communication issues here.
You don't say.
This is not even close to the first time that you and Fidel have hijacked a thread only so that you can make the point that the Manitoba NDP isn't socialist enough, and Fidel can deflect that criticism by saying something about the "Whigs and Tories".
Fri, 2009-02-27 21:35
#109
genstrike still refuses to explain how Gary Doer robbed several billion federal dollars from post-secondary funding between the years 1993 and 2006. He's overly protective of our neoliberal ideologgers, me tinks
Fri, 2009-02-27 22:09
#110
How did your Liberals vote?
My Liberals? I'm sorry, I don't have any Liberals, because I have no association with any Liberal party at any level.
And, for good measure, fuck Paul Martin and Jean Chretien. Fuck Jon Gerrard, and Kevin Lamoureaux is a crazy idiot. Happy?
???????????A yellow ribbon campaign is evidence of Gary Doer's militarism?
I would say yes, particularly when combined with his general support for the war, NDP MLAs appearing at Red Friday rallies, and making a special position titled "Special Envoy for Military Affairs" for one of his MLAs. What is the yellow ribbon campaign if not militarist? What are these actions if not militarist?
This is not even close to the first time that you and Fidel have hijacked a thread only so that you can make the point that the Manitoba NDP isn't socialist enough, and Fidel can deflect that criticism by saying something about the "Whigs and Tories".
I'm only trying to make that point as an example to illustrate what I think is wrong with the NDP, especially when it is electorally successful. I think one of the best ways to really look at the NDP and what they would do is to look at their policies while elected, and right now Manitoba is the only province which has an NDP government. Is there a single province where the NDP has both been electorally successful and avoided a slide to the right? Why would it be any different federally?
If we are condemned to this rightward slide, then why should the anti-capitalist left continue to support a party which will only move further and further away from our values? What is to be gained in working to strengthen a party which does not reflect our values and never will?
Fri, 2009-02-27 22:25
#111
So what is to be done, genstrike?
Fri, 2009-02-27 22:27
#112
Why would it be any different federally?
You continue with this lie that there is no difference between federal and provincial government. And I dont know if its your general all around ignorance of Canadian politics or it's deliberate.
I think youre afraid that if elected federally, the NDP would restore the several billion dollars to PSE stolen by the Liberals, and pull the troops out of Afghanistan. The NDP in power in Ottawa would restore strong central government as it is in EU and Nordic countries, and have the power to raise overall taxation to just the OECD average level and restore tens of billions of dollars in social transfers robbed from the provinces by the federal Liberals and Tories in Ottawa over the last 30 years.
Fri, 2009-02-27 22:50
#113
If we are condemned to this rightward slide, then why should the anti-capitalist left continue to support a party which will only move further and further away from our values? What is to be gained in working to strengthen a party which does not reflect our values and never will?
As more of the anti capitalist left leave the NDP, the further the party moves to the right.
ETA: yeah i'm also interested to hear what is to be done.
Fri, 2009-02-27 22:52
#114
So what is to be done, genstrike?
Well, I don't want to pretend to be an expert on planning revolutions, but I would say that the anti-capitalist left needs to come together in some way, but it can't be a Leninist-style party for a variety of reasons (I am not a fan of "democratic centralism"). And there would have to be a long talk about whether to contest elections and what sort of electoral strategy to have, considering the capitalist pressures involved with contesting elections, which it seems like no other electoral party in the world has resisted (it would be pointless to create a party which in 75 years time will have evolved into the Manitoba NDP).
I would propose at the very least some sort of left federation or coalition, but a single organization if possible. However, I think it would be necessary to allow things like factions and caucuses in order to ensure that differing viewpoints are accepted and recognized and that the party doesn't splinter like cheap Ikea furniture, and the party would have to be structured in such a way that it involves everyone and you don't get a "party brass" and all the rightward pressures that would entail. This organization would have to be clearly and explicitly anti-capitalist, and could work on a variety of issues and tactics (elections(?), propaganda, mass rallies, labour organizing, building worker co-ops, survival programs, publications, etc.)
Of course, this would probably be pretty difficult, as getting leftists together can sometimes be like herding cats, and there are some pretty big gaps in ideology, especially between Marxists and Anarchists. But things have been looking up a little, at least in Winnipeg, as there have been a few initiatives in recent years which got a lot of people from a lot of different organizations together.
And, this would of course entail what actual anti-capitalists there are left in the NDP leaving.
Fri, 2009-02-27 23:00
#115
As more of the anti capitalist left leave the NDP, the further the party moves to the right.
Does the anti-capitalist left have any decent numbers or influence in the NDP at all? If the Socialist Caucus or Fightback denounced Gary Doer, would it make one bit of difference? If they had ten times as many members as they do now, would it still matter? Would they ever be able to overcome the rightward pressures of electoral politics, the "party brass", the right-wing social democrats, the political machines, the office-holders interested in keeping the status quo, the careerists, etc.?
Has there been a single electorally successful party which has bucked these rightward forces of electoralism?
Fri, 2009-02-27 23:13
#116
Why not just vote for the local Marxist candidate instead of trying to bust up the NDP and helping the rightwing Liberal Party gain votes in the process? Doh! Unless, that is, if you think post-secondary tuition isnt high enough already, and that Canadian troops havent been playing at colonialism in the stan for long enough, then by all means try to break up the NDP and HELP the Libranos, the LIEbrals, that other wing of the big business and big banking party to stooge it up some more in Ottawa.
Sat, 2009-02-28 00:43
#117
Well, I don't want to pretend to be an expert on planning revolutions, but I would say that the anti-capitalist left needs to come together in some way, but it can't be a Leninist-style party for a variety of reasons (I am not a fan of "democratic centralism").
I understand that you're referring to the concentrated, Comintern-style party when saying "Leninist style," but the class movement itself has to be both centralized, disciplined, and capable of posing the question of class power. This was the Marxist definition of "party" in the late 19th century. The definition of "socialist party" was thus: "Social Democracy is the merger of socialism and the worker movement."
And there would have to be a long talk about whether to contest elections and what sort of electoral strategy to have, considering the capitalist pressures involved with contesting elections, which it seems like no other electoral party in the world has resisted (it would be pointless to create a party which in 75 years time will have evolved into the Manitoba NDP).
Like I said, the broader group should set up a smaller group that registers itself as the standard "political party," even if said group isn't the class party-movement itself.
However, I think it would be necessary to allow things like factions and caucuses in order to ensure that differing viewpoints are accepted and recognized and that the party doesn't splinter like cheap Ikea furniture
Who said that factions are a no-no? You should read more on the SPD model in Germany, where there were differing positions on even the question of national self-determination for the colonies.
and the party would have to be structured in such a way that it involves everyone and you don't get a "party brass" and all the rightward pressures that would entail
That can only come through demarchy, not the radical republicanism of frequent elections.
This organization would have to be clearly and explicitly anti-capitalist, and could work on a variety of issues and tactics (elections(?), propaganda, mass rallies, labour organizing, building worker co-ops, survival programs, publications, etc.)
Yep: you're repeating the history of the SPD, Lenin's party model when he wrote WITBD and, more importantly, more underrated earlier works. 
Of course, this would probably be pretty difficult, as getting leftists together can sometimes be like herding cats, and there are some pretty big gaps in ideology, especially between Marxists and Anarchists.
It depends on which "anarchists" and even which "Marxists" you're referring to. You're a class-strugglist anarchist, for example, so I don't see any fundamental problems working with someone like you, even if the question of the state will be a long-term "we'll agree to disagree" thing. Contrast yourself with, say, lifestylists, hooliganists, and ultra-insurrectionists ("propaganda of the deed").
On the "Marxist" side, I wouldn't want to work with New Left bozos who grossly downplay class struggle in favour of their cherished Identity Politics (there's one such irritant on RevLeft, BTW 
).
Sat, 2009-02-28 02:01
#118
I understand that you're referring to the concentrated, Comintern-style party when saying "Leninist style," but the class movement itself has to be both centralized, disciplined, and capable of posing the question of class power. This was the Marxist definition of "party" in the late 19th century. The definition of "socialist party" was thus: "Social Democracy is the merger of socialism and the worker movement."
Still, I'm a little worried about being "disciplined" when we're talking about Leninist parties. I think we really need to strike the right balance between centralization and decentralized autonomy.
It depends on which "anarchists" and even which "Marxists" you're referring to. You're a class-strugglist anarchist, for example, so I don't see any fundamental problems working with someone like you, even if the question of the state will be a long-term "we'll agree to disagree" thing. Contrast yourself with, say, lifestylists, hooliganists, and ultra-insurrectionists ("propaganda of the deed").
On the "Marxist" side, I wouldn't want to work with New Left bozos who grossly downplay class struggle in favour of their cherished Identity Politics (there's one such irritant on RevLeft, BTW
Well, when I wrote that I initially had in mind unreformed Stalinists and anti-revisionists versus most anarchists, given the differences in what each thinks a post-revolutionary society should look like and the historical mistrust (ie: Kronstadt, Spain, etc). But on the other hand there has been some good work in Winnipeg between the local NSG and IWW branches, and we've been able to work with a variety of people on specific issues.
Regarding identity politics, while we obviously shouldn't let them replace class politics, I think there is definitely room for them in whatever movements or stuggles we have. We can't really talk about universal liberation if we don't recognize that specific liberation movements are a part of that (of course, we can't take the eye off class either)
Fidel, I'd reply to your idiotic accusations, but I'm trying to avoid getting into this bullshit with you again. Needless to say, they are complete bullshit and probably not worth my time responding to. I think I'll pass on taking the bait this time...
Sat, 2009-02-28 02:18
#119
Youre quick to blame a lot of what's wrong across Canada on provincial NDP governments instead of where the blame lies, with our two old line parties and the very neoliberal trade deals of the 80s and 90s. Not a peep from self-described "lefties" about those issues, which is conspicuous to say the least.
And you or perhaps others here have claimed that Gary Doer has the power to raise corporate taxes in a tiny provincial economy sandwiched between conservative Alberta and Sask to the west and McGuilty's Ontario on the other, two of the largest economies in the country. We have growing child poverty and low minimum wage rates in Ontario, and provinces have been racing to the bottom with provincial corporate tax rates for years. The largest provincial economies pretty much dictate these kinds of things, especially so without strong central government in Ottawa.
I think youre either willfully ignorant of what's been happening to this country over the last 30 years or are just wet behind the ears, one or the other.
Sat, 2009-02-28 02:33
#120
Still, I'm a little worried about being "disciplined" when we're talking about Leninist parties. I think we really need to strike the right balance between centralization and decentralized autonomy.
I see no problem with that. My polemic is with those fetishizing decentralized social movements. To quote a Kautskyist, "They bent the stick one direction [and continue to do so]. In order to straighten the stick it was necessary to bend it in the other direction, and that is what I did."
Regarding identity politics, while we obviously shouldn't let them replace class politics, I think there is definitely room for them in whatever movements or stuggles we have. We can't really talk about universal liberation if we don't recognize that specific liberation movements are a part of that (of course, we can't take the eye off class either).
It depends on how demands dealing with Identity Politics are formulated:
http://www.workers-party.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54&Itemid=62
The Social Demands are quite good in tying what could have easily been vulgarized into cheap Identity Politics with class struggle.
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