ONDP Leadership thread III - discuss, debate, post news here!

I'm neutral.

truthfully, every camp is going to claim sewn-up delegates, but i don't think that's necessarily how it's going to play. the delegates aren't going to be casting their ballots with someone in a position of authority looking over their shoulders. i suspect a lot of the supers (for lack of a better term) have resented the arm-twisting that went on and either cast for someone they've decided on in their own minds, or wait for the convention debate and assorted conventioneering.

this is one of the most fluid electorates i've ever encountered, of any sort.

people paid no attention for a very long time, and just kind of shrugged it off. judging from the jump in the volume of posts, the trotting out of the usual suspects passing themselves off as ndp-ologists, the Blizzard article, the impending plagues of boils, locusts and gadflies--oh, the gadflies got here ages ago!

and people are paying a little attention. certainly the agenda got far more attention than focus ontario a few weeks ago. the spin is in.  i have a feeling there's gonna be a ton of it, from all four camps.

for the record, i offer up my partner, somewhat left-ish in orientation, but not much for paying attention to politics. indeed, would much prefer to drive knitting needles into their eyes than pay much attention to queen's park.

prue: definitely looks the most like a premier. seems most comfortable and has best hair.

tabuns: kinda scares me.

bisson: meh.

horwath: a little bit too, 'pick flick'.

steve paiken: did he just say, 'is it your family who tells you that?' that's harsh!

Sunday Hat -- I think you'll find many of the northern elected members generally are on the right of the party on many issues.  As much as I wish it weren't true, the north isn't voting NDP because they're socialists.  I think Gilles is playing the business friendly card because that's the type of approach that's won him four or five elections with in and around 50 percent of the vote.  He's not getting results like that in places like Timmins or Kapuskasing or Cochrane by being ideological.  Naturally, I'm not surprised that's it's not going over well with the party support that is more ideologically inclined.

Sunday Hat wrote:

We won't know for sure until it's over but I do think Gilles' inability to attract any MPP or MP support south of North Bay; or the support of major trade union leaders, etc. indicates that he's running very strong in Northern Ontario and not so strong in the rest of the province.

Sunday, Gilles has been formally endorsed by former MPP from Windsor Wayne Lessard, Ottawa Candidate Rick Dagenais, by UFCW, former OSPEU President Fred Upshaw, former OFL president Gordon Wilson and many other labour groups. His support is much more broad than many might realize

The NDP in the North is actually to the Left of the party on most economic issues - which, to me, are key. If you look through ONDP history it was northerners that wanted to nationalize INCO (while Rae tried to keep a lid on it), northerners fighting hardest for public auto insurance (while Rae led the retreat), northerners leading the charge to keep hydro rates public (while the Toronto-based environmental movement cheered).

If you look at the Northern Ontario platform that got the federal NDP their northern sweep you'll see a lot of class war rhetoric:

"governments have poured billions into corporate tax giveaways, and failed to recognize the legitimate needs of Northern Ontario workers"

"Make corporate polluters pay to clean up the mess they’ve made, not ordinary families."

This is the platform that 7 out of 7 Northern Ontario candidates won on and it's filled with the sort of language that Gilles insists we should put behind us.

And while I can't say that I've been up to Timmins during a provincial campaign, I'd be surprised verging on stunned if Gilles Bisson wasn't using the same rhetoric in his campaigns.

I don't know where you get the idea that northerners are "right wing".

"tabuns: kinda scares me."

I only wish Tabuns actually did "scare" anyone. It would actually make him a much more interesting and attractive candidate. I like the guy, but the last thing i would ever call him is "scary". He strikes me as a very earnest, plodding sort of guy in an almost Broadbent-like way and he is a very mild-mannered and polite.

There are strengths and weaknesses in all the candidates but calling Tabuns "scary" is pretty absurd. 

Sunday Hat -- I didn't realize that Gilles was shifting directions, away from the sort of things you've bolded.  I wasn't aware of that...I haven't really noticed it in the three debates I've attended, or during the TVO show, or the campaign literature.  I'd be interested to see that. Especially on the tax breaks to big corporations, I've heard Gilles rail against that before, so it'd be interesting to note his shift there.

Now, if you're talking about Gilles' targeted tax cut/working with industry messaging (which I personally am not much of a fan of, I think it's just a bit bathwatery/schlocky) then that's fine, we'll agree to disagree that that represents a fundamental shift in his approach.  I just think it's a bit of a stetch to generalize that single plank to Gilles wanting to move away from the principles you bolded, the principles he's probably stood for for 19 years.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that northerners are "right wing" either.  I suggested that the current crop of northern MPs/MPPs are generally right of the NDP's left.  From my interactions (not every day but not limited either) I think that's pretty accurate.  Your experience may suggest otherwise.

I'm not an expert by any means, but I have worked campaigns in the north, lived there for a short time, and interacted with some of the Gilles/Charlie campaigns (both community and electoral.)  When they need to, they do their class war rhetoric well, I don't disagree.  I'm with you on that - politics in northern Ontario is a different beast than in the south, and I'm thankful for that because a lot of the push on major issues have come from our northern MPPs/members.

I've heard some barnstorming speeches of the kind from Bisson in the past (Smooth Rock mill closure, Iroquois Falls dam severance, the one he did for cabbies two years back was pretty good too) and have attended a a fair amount of meetings (including one where Gilles took a mining executive to task for some obvious doublespeak on mill closures and innovation.)   But if NDP members are looking for some solid northern class-war rhetoric as a key measure of a candidate's left-wing credibility, then yeah, I'd agree that Bisson's probably not their guy.  I think you'd find that in both their campaigns and in their day-to-day work as MPPs, they're a lot more nuanced than that.

[I do agree though that, thus far, this sort of class-based approach has been missing from the campaign - nothing from Tabuns, a bit from Prue, a reasonable amount from Horwath, and a bit from Bisson (but evidently negated by the business stuff.) -- edited to add this]

[ Edited to make sentences actually readable :) ]

I'm glad the Howwath campaign knew the union breakdown from the start.

AKA - Possibly the breakdown was too confusing for the person at the provicial office to breakdown for you.  serioius.  I was told by my "source" last summer a ruff breakdown that made sense to me:  Steel has around 2/3 of the delegates. 

Organizing is so easy.

Go Bulldogs!  

Somebody from central party confused? Impossible!

scarboroughnative wrote:

Northerners tend to be sensible.

Period...

Suggestion: The NDP should look to the North, put the latte and the manifesto down, develop a populist approach and learn something about how to grow this party from the people who have had the real success. 

The Northerners.

I don't object to a pragmatic approach, I do object to calling for corporate tax cuts at a time when even the Liberals are saying it's a dumb idea.

alphasix actual wrote:

Open question to all, considering we are in an economic manure pile, do you think its right to put on a big show at convention when most people have already voted?

More money has been spent on campaigns than goes into individual riding associations to win elections.

The ONDP's regular biennial convention was due to be held this spring anyway.

I highly doubt it.

I have voted, by the grace of Canada Post, and don't mind saying that it's for 1. Horwath, 2. Prue, 3. Bisson, and 4. Tabuns.  Having met a few and listened at a debate I can't say I'd be displeased with any of them as leader.

aka Mycroft wrote:

What I'm wondering is this - past Ontario NDP leadership conventions have been televised. I know this one is being webcast but are any of the networks or news channels actually planning live coverage with commentary?

It would be surprising if CHCH in Hamilton wasn't covering the convention or parts of it.   No idea about national television or Cable news networks.

I think Tabuns does far better in the interview than Horwath.  Horwath can't even criticize the "Get Orange" campaign and treats the Catholic school funding with outright contempt.  Tabuns talks about class consciousness, is willing to criticize the last campaign, and while unwilling to talk about separate schools at least isn't outright hostile about the issue even being raised.

(Nash throws support behind Tabuns)

Today, Peggy Nash and Michele Landsberg jointly released a statement endorsing Peter Tabuns for leader of the Ontario NDP.

"When our party chooses a leader, we have to go way deeper than geography or symbolism. We have to search our hearts and consciences and find the one person who best exemplifies our party’s values - the one who can lead with clarity, intelligence and an unshakable commitment to the issues.

Leadership demands vigour and moral courage. Peter Tabuns’ mettle has been tested and has proven itself over and over: Remember when, as a city councillor, he fought to a standstill the privatization of hydro, when he promoted the retrofitting of office buildings long before energy-saving was popular, and when he proposed an "outrageous" smoking ban in restaurants and bars.

We believe that Peter has the experience, the vision and the energy to step into leadership right now to guide us through this frightening recession. Peter fully grasps the social democratic approach to our deepening economic crisis - it’s not pouring money into the pockets of bankers and contractors. It’s about creating and sustaining jobs in both public and private sectors. It’s about shifting our health care focus to the prevention of illness and societal unrest by ending poverty, healing the environment, creating housing for all and confronting the inequality and economic injustice that destabilizes our communities.

He’s the right leader; the one we can proudly back right now."

Peggy Nash and Michele Landsberg
 

Kind of odd to wait so long to announce endorsements like that. A majority of people have likely already voted.

TinTincognito wrote:

I have voted, by the grace of Canada Post, and don't mind saying that it's for 1. Horwath, 2. Prue, 3. Bisson, and 4. Tabuns.  Having met a few and listened at a debate I can't say I'd be displeased with any of them as leader.

 I just voted the exact same order online.   Horwath was a clear #1 to me.  I don't really think the order of my #2, 3 and 4 votes really matters as I expect Andrea to be on the final ballot.   

candle wrote:

TinTincognito wrote:

I have voted, by the grace of Canada Post, and don't mind saying that it's for 1. Horwath, 2. Prue, 3. Bisson, and 4. Tabuns.  Having met a few and listened at a debate I can't say I'd be displeased with any of them as leader.

 I just voted the exact same order online.   Horwath was a clear #1 to me.  I don't really think the order of my #2, 3 and 4 votes really matters as I expect Andrea to be on the final ballot.   

Even though I'm a delegate, I voted in advance online (I never wait until E-Day to vote; there's too much to be done that day and, well, one never knows what lies ahead).

I didn't bother to use my 2, 3 or 4.

Scott Piatkowski wrote:

I didn't bother to use my 2, 3 or 4.

Yikes.  That's as bad as Kormos supporters waving their pre-marked ballots around at the last leadership convention. 

Frustrated Mess wrote:

I just cast my ballot for Tabuns, Horvath, Bisson and Prue in that order.

I just cast mine for 1. Prue, 2. Horwath, 3. Bisson, 4. Tabuns.

I'm not sure who will come out on top on the first ballot, but for all three of the other campaigns Horwath seems to be almost everyone's second choice.

Sorry Peggy and Michelle - Tabuns' anti-labour practices are wrong for party staff and wrong for our party. And I don't see anything in Tabun's platform that targets women's issues.

As for Andrea, where was her support for women when Christopherson's provincial seat opened up. A black woman was going to become candidate uncontested, but Andrea called up Wayne Marston and asked him to come home from Atlanta and run. Marston came home, but Andrea jumped ship ended up supporting a different white guy altogether! And where was Andrea's support for women when she gave up her municipal seat to run provincially? Andrea wouldn't endorse the female, NDP candidate who was a local riding president for OPSEU - Andrea choose to endorse the male, liberal candidate. So much for party loyalty and helping women in our party...

On a different note - this endorsement flew by my email the other day:

ONDY Female Exec.s Voting For Prue

As young female activists in the ONDP we find Michael Prue to have the most progressive platform when it comes to addressing the issues that matter most to Ontario women. His party renewal platform will help transform gender parity from an aspiration to a reality. Prue's $10,000 pledge toward every riding association's election budget will enable more female candidates to run and be successful. Prue's vision for municipalities will restore many gutted social services that have ultimately been off loaded onto the province's women. Additionally, this will result in job creation in female dominated sectors. Prue has also offered the most detailed poverty reduction strategy. As poverty disproportionately affects women, we are confident that his $11 minimum wage, market measured housing benefits, and freeze until sale property tax initiative best addresses the concerns of women, young and old, from across Ontario. We feel that Michael Prue offers the most comprehensive and holistic platform; addressing the realities and concerns of women both within and outside our party.

Alex Johnstone: ONDY Clubs Coordinator
Sarah Douglas: ONDY Secretary
Carilyne Hébert: ONDY Working Youth Coordinator
Elizabeth Kessler: ONDY Francophone Director
Sonja Missio : ONDY Southeast Regional Organizer
Paris Meilleur: Former ONDY Southwest Regional Organizer

That's almost the entire line of female exec. on ONDY! Young females want change in our party and they see that happening with Michael Prue!

Lost in Bruce County wrote:

As for Andrea, where was her support for women when Christopherson's provincial seat opened up. A black woman was going to become candidate uncontested, but Andrea called up Wayne Marston and asked him to come home from Atlanta and run. Marston came home, but Andrea jumped ship ended up supporting a different white guy altogether!

Quote:

 And where was Andrea's support for women when she gave up her municipal seat to run provincially?

Andrea is a woman. She could well be the leader of the Ontario New Democats. I can't recall the last time the Ontario NDP had a female leader. IIRC the Ontario Liberals had Lynn McCloud. I don't know if the PCs have had a female leader.   I do know that many women prefer voting for men, and some men prefer voting for women. What's important after that is their ability to lead a party.  The NDP pressed by female activists and have provided the ability for women to lead the party. What is funny is that we are still having this discussion in 2009. How old is the suffragette movement? 150 years? Maybe "It's time" for the ONDP to get a female leader.  Ofcourse, from what I am reading here.... people have already voted, and your going to count them on the weekend?

And the choice of whether a female leads, will be shared equally by women with the right to refuse or accept a female leader.