Are Canadians ready to die for Israel?

79 posts / 0 new

Mon, 2009-03-02 13:18

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Quote:
Mullen's warning came a day after Prime Minister Stephen Harper called the Iranian regime "evil" during an interview with theWall Street Journal.

"It concerns me that we have a regime with both an ideology that is obviously evil, combined with a desire to procure technology to act on that ideology," Harper told the newspaper on Saturday.

"My government is a very strong supporter of the state of Israel and considers the Iranian threats to be absolutely unacceptable and beyond the pale," he added.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090301/Iran_Bomb_090301/20090301?hub=TopStories

Quote:

Canada and Israel appear to see eye to eye on most of the threats and challenges facing the Jewish state, officials said here following a weekend visit to Israel and Jordan by Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon ...

"(The Israelis) were very concerned and worried about Iran acquiring nuclear weapons," Cannon said in a conference call from Egypt last night. "We share that concern."

http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/595056

Quote:

“Real men go to Tehran!” brayed the neoconservatives after the success of their propaganda campaign to have America march on Baghdad and into an unnecessary war that has forfeited all the fruits of our Cold War victory.

Now they are back, in pursuit of what has always been their great goal: an American war on Iran. It would be a mistake to believe they and their collaborators cannot succeed a second time. Consider:

On being chosen by Israel’s President Shimon Peres to form the new regime, Likud’s “Bibi” Netanyahu declared, “Iran is seeking to obtain a nuclear weapon and constitutes the gravest threat to our existence since the war of independence.”

Echoing Netanyahu, headlines last week screamed of a startling new nuclear breakthrough by the mullahs. “Iran ready to build nuclear weapon, analysts say,” said CNN. “Iran has enough uranium to make a bomb,” said the Los Angeles Times. Armageddon appeared imminent.

Asked about Iran’s nukes in his confirmation testimony, CIA Director Leon Panetta blurted, “From all the information I’ve seen, I think there is no question that they are seeking that capability.”

Tuesday, Dennis Ross of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, a front spawned by the Israeli lobby AIPAC, was given the Iranian portfolio. AIPAC’s top agenda item? A U.S. collision with Iran.

http://www.amconmag.com/blog/2009/02/26/return-of-the-war-party/#more-1571

Is Harper prepared to lead Canada into WWIII in the regional interests of an Apartheid state? It would seem so.

Mon, 2009-03-02 13:24

Stockholm

In many ways, Israel is almost irrelavant to the issue of Iran. Even if there was no Israel, Iran as a nuclear power capable of invading its neighbours etc... would in and of itself be enough reason for NATO etc... to react. The question is not "are Canadians will to die for Israel?" it is "are canadians willing to die to contain Iran?" The answer may be NO either way - but Iran is the issue here, not Israel.

Mon, 2009-03-02 13:33

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Ah, so Iran needs containing. Interesting, Stockholm. Perhaps you can detail for me when Iran last invaded a neighbour. And if it is your argument that a nuclear armed belligerent state requires "containing then I'm sure you would be supportive of "containing" Israel which nuclear armed and has invaded all of its neighbours.

Mon, 2009-03-02 13:35

Red T-shirt

Why do we keep seeing reports that say that Iran is 10 years away from having a bomb? Almost any state could produce a bomb in 10 years if they were serious about starting up a program to do so. Somebody is lying to us and for my money I'd suspect the liars are exactly the same people who assured us that Iraq had WMDs. Why not get the inspectors in there to settle the question? Unless maybe this isn't about finding out the truth at all. Hmm

Mon, 2009-03-02 13:40

Stockholm

I didn't say that I PERSONALLY think that Iran needs to be contained. I don't. My point is that to the extent that the US and Europe have been rattling sabres with Iran - Israel is just a smokescreen, its about trepidation over Iran becoming a regional super-power. Its the crude, dude.

Mon, 2009-03-02 13:47

Unionist

Iran has never once committed aggression against any other country.

Israel has never once ceased its aggression against its neighbours and those under its illegal occupation.

No wonder Stockholm sees Iran as the threat here.

Mon, 2009-03-02 13:52

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

I disagree. It is Israel that is saber rattling as it views Iran as a threat to its hegemony in the region and because Iran is Islamic. Israel requires spineless, Christian fundies like Harper and his government to give them succor and to lend their nations as pawns.

Mon, 2009-03-02 13:53

johnpauljones

Unionist i love it when people use absolutes in debates.

Mon, 2009-03-02 14:20

Stockholm

If Iran didn't have oil and wasn't seen as being on the verge of extending its influence over the Persian Gulf - the US wouldn't give a hoot about it. Iran matter because of oil - Israel is irrelevant. If the US ends up in a conflict with Iran it will be over OIL - Israel will be an afterthought or an excuse that will be given so that it won't look like it was "just about oil".

Mon, 2009-03-02 14:27

#10

Unionist

Frustrated Mess wrote:
I disagree. It is Israel that is saber rattling as it views Iran as a threat to its hegemony in the region and because Iran is Islamic.

"Threat to its hegemony in the region" - yes.

"Because Iran is Islamic" - certainly not. Israel doesn't care about that. They warmongered against and even bombed secular Iraq. They promoted the birth of "Islamic" Palestinian groups as a counterweight to secular ones. Israel will work with anyone, of any religion or flavour, who serves its aims.

Israel is not now, nor has it ever been, motivated by religious likes or dislikes. It is ethnic, political, imperial, colonial, and hegemonic, all the way.

Mon, 2009-03-02 14:32

#11

Stockholm

Indeed, Saudi Arabia is more "Islamic" than Iran.

Mon, 2009-03-02 15:40

#12

genstrike

Stockholm wrote:
Iran as a nuclear power capable of invading its neighbours etc... would in and of itself be enough reason for NATO etc... to react.

Isn't Israel a nuclear power capable of invading its neighbors (and does)?

Isn't the USA a nuclear power capable of invading practically any other country on earth (and does)? Same goes for the UK and France.

Mon, 2009-03-02 15:59

#13

Stockholm

Nato regards Iran as an adversary. Look I didn't say i agreed with this. I'm just saying WHY Iran is an "issue".

Mon, 2009-03-02 16:21

#14

al-Qa'bong

Stockholm wrote:
In many ways, Israel is almost irrelavant to the issue of Iran. Even if there was no Israel, Iran as a nuclear power capable of invading its neighbours etc... would in and of itself be enough reason for NATO etc... to react.

Gee, now who do you suppose the Iranians might want to deter with these hypothetical nukes?

Ever since the days of Mishei it seems as though the pro-Israel front on this site argues from the perspective of someone wearing a blindfold, with his hands over his ears, singing the same song as loud as it takes to drown out what's going on in the world.

Mon, 2009-03-02 16:26

#15

johnpauljones

I am not sure about the thread title. Why would Canadians die for Israel? Mullen is a US Admiral.

If there was an attack on Iran. Canada does not have the capability to participate in any strike on Iran.

Mon, 2009-03-02 16:42

#16

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Unionist wrote:

Frustrated Mess wrote:
I disagree. It is Israel that is saber rattling as it views Iran as a threat to its hegemony in the region and because Iran is Islamic.

"Threat to its hegemony in the region" - yes.

"Because Iran is Islamic" - certainly not. Israel doesn't care about that. They warmongered against and even bombed secular Iraq. They promoted the birth of "Islamic" Palestinian groups as a counterweight to secular ones. Israel will work with anyone, of any religion or flavour, who serves its aims.

Israel is not now, nor has it ever been, motivated by religious likes or dislikes. It is ethnic, political, imperial, colonial, and hegemonic, all the way.

You misunderstand. Islam becomes the bogey man for Western support especially aming the fundies. For example, Stephen Harper: ""It concerns me that we have a regime with ... an ideology that is obviously evil." What is Iran's "evil ideology"? Islam. Harper is equating Islam with evil. Let's be clear on that.

Quote:
If Iran didn't have oil and wasn't seen as being on the verge of extending its influence over the Persian Gulf - the US wouldn't give a hoot about it.

There is plenty of oil. Canada is an oil superpower, remember. And if Iran is extending its influence it is only because of US blunders such as the invasion of Iraq. But we see this latest saber rattling only when Obama talks of opening dialogue with Iran. Why is that?

Quote:
I am not sure about the thread title. Why would Canadians die for Israel? Mullen is a US Admiral.

You're reading selectively. It has nothing to do with Mullen. Your Prime Minister, Stephen Harper, just called Iran "evil" and said "my government is a very strong supporter of the state of Israel and considers the Iranian threats to be absolutely unacceptable and beyond the pale."

His Minister, Lawrence Cannon, in Jerusalem, just said Canada sees "eye to eye" with Israel with regard to threats and said Canada "shares" Israel's concerns over Iran.

So, to answer your question, it is your own government that would lead Canadians into a war against Iran on behalf of Israel.

Quote:
If there was an attack on Iran. Canada does not have the capability to participate in any strike on Iran.

And yet Canada is in Afghanistan for a war Harper claims can't be won and managed to particiapate in a strike on Iraq during Gulf War I. Imagine ...

Mon, 2009-03-02 19:37

#17

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Red T-shirt wrote:
Somebody is lying to us and for my money I'd suspect the liars are exactly the same people who assured us that Iraq had WMDs. Why not get the inspectors in there to settle the question?

Quote:

Since February 2003, Iran's nuclear program has undergone what the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) itself admits to be [b]the most intrusive inspection in its entire history.[/b] After thousands of hours of inspections by some of the most experienced IAEA experts, the Agency has verified time and again that (1) there is no evidence of a nuclear weapons program in Iran, and (2) all the declared nuclear materials have been accounted for; there has been no diversion of such materials to non-peaceful purposes. Iran has a clean bill of health, as far as its nuclear program is concerned.

[url=http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/world/2009/02/422426.html][color=...'s Telling the Truth About Iran's Nuclear Program?[/u][/color][/url]

Tue, 2009-03-03 18:05

#18

Chester Drawers

The questions that I have are:

What do you think Israel should do when terrorists lob indiscriminately, rockets accross the borders?

Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?

Has any Israelis leader or group ever called on the ellimination of a state or group of people? Hamas, PLO and many others have puplically called for the complete analization of the Jewist state and its people.

How should Israel respond?

What would have happened if Israel did not defend itself in 1967 when it was attacked on three fronts?

How do you defend organizations that display outright hatred of the Jewish state and its' people?

No one ever answers these types of questions, they only criticize Israel.

The only way that peace will ever happen is when the Palestinian populas that actually want peace step up and demand that the terrorist activities stop. In order for the borders to open the cowardous terrorist acts must stop.

Tue, 2009-03-03 19:20

#19

Kdrunkin1

Chester Drawers wrote:

The questions that I have are:

What do you think Israel should do when terrorists lob indiscriminately, rockets accross the borders?

Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?

Has any Israelis leader or group ever called on the ellimination of a state or group of people? Hamas, PLO and many others have puplically called for the complete analization of the Jewist state and its people.

How should Israel respond?

What would have happened if Israel did not defend itself in 1967 when it was attacked on three fronts?

How do you defend organizations that display outright hatred of the Jewish state and its' people?

No one ever answers these types of questions, they only criticize Israel.

The only way that peace will ever happen is when the Palestinian populas that actually want peace step up and demand that the terrorist activities stop. In order for the borders to open the cowardous terrorist acts must stop.

Don't come in here asking pertinant questions like this cuz they don't want to hear it. They can't answer the questions cuz Jack hasn't told them how to answer them yet. Untill you realize that Isreal is the problem please refrain from posting common sence questions.

Tue, 2009-03-03 20:07

#20

Jingles

Jack tells me that dumbass trolls should be ignored.

Jack tells me that all those foolish questions have been answered again and again here, and that it's the new poster's responsibility to educate his/her ignorant self before revealing his/her talking points.

Jack instructs me to stop writing, as I've said too much already.

Tue, 2009-03-03 20:28

#21

miles

Jack tells me that the posters questions are always welcome but please study history before posting them. For example learn about the 6 day war before you post that Israel was attacked on 3 fronts in '67.

Argue and debate but please lets get the facts correct. '67 Israel attacked, '73 Israel was attacked

Wed, 2009-03-04 01:19

#22

Parkdale High Park

Election financing laws are a big factor here. Because election spending is capped, and since the Tories can make enough to meet the cap in a single year, they have money left over in the interim.

Harper is using this strategy in order to get his agenda through. When the Liberals are low in the polls they will not want an election, and are more likely to avoid confidence motions. Harper MUST use this strategy because the NDP and Bloc will vote against his budget regardless.

Martin did not need to use that strategy because he had a stronger minority and could pass confidence motions with either the Tories or NDP - he had more negotiating options... until 2006

Wed, 2009-03-04 15:38

#23

Ken Burch

johnpauljones wrote:

Unionist i love it when people use absolutes in debates.

But do you ABSOLUTELY ALWAYS love it?_________________________________________________________________________________________________ Our Demands Most Moderate are/ We Only Want The World! -James Connolly

Wed, 2009-03-04 16:08

#24

theorangeliberal

harper and co. should be less worried about trying to bend over for the israelis at this point and worry about domestic issues...oh i dunno..like the economy..just my two cents

Wed, 2009-03-04 22:27

#25

redpill

Stockholm

Please stop diverting every discussion towards Israel.

This is NOT about Israel.

Thu, 2009-03-05 10:03

#26

Sven

Unionist wrote:

Iran has never once committed aggression against any other country.

Even covertly?

_______________________________________

[b]Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!![/b]

Thu, 2009-03-05 10:24

#27

Slumberjack

Kdrunkin1 wrote:
...They can't answer the questions cuz Jack hasn't told them how to answer them yet.

Jack has spoken. He said you should bugger off.

Thu, 2009-03-05 10:30

#28

Michelle

You guys don't know Jack.

kdrunkin is a troll and is outta here.

Thu, 2009-03-05 10:50

#29

Unionist

Sven wrote:
Unionist wrote:

Iran has never once committed aggression against any other country.

Even covertly?

I take your response as an acknowledgment that Iran has never overtly committed aggression against any other country.

It's an important historical fact which never seems to get mentioned in the frenzied screaming MSM (and some babble) tirades about the need to "contain" Iran.

Strange, eh?

As for "covertly", I'm not sure. Did you have an example of "covert" Iranian aggression against another country?

Thu, 2009-03-05 15:42

#30

al-Qa'bong

Well, there was the funding to the Contras.

Thu, 2009-03-05 16:46

#31

Max Bialystock

Yes, Harper would be willing to risk Canadian lives for Israel. He is a puppet of the Zionist lobby.

Thu, 2009-03-05 16:52

#32

remind

Chester Drawers wrote:
The questions that I have are:

Though they are deeply inane and bull shitty, I will answer them anyway, to the best of my knowlege.

Quote:
What do you think Israel should do when terrorists lob indiscriminately, rockets accross the borders?

Have you ever asked yourself why Palestinians are lobbing rockets across the border? That would be a good place to start your inquiries.

Quote:
Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?

I used to, but not so much anymore.

Quote:
Has any Israelis leader or group ever called on the ellimination of a state or group of people?

Actions speak louder than words don't ya think?

Quote:
Hamas, PLO and many others have puplically called for the complete analization of the Jewist state and its people.

Care to provide examples of each individually, and so what if they did, I also call for the destruction of the USA and the thinking that has created it. As well as for the destruction of the Harpo government, and the thinking that has created it.

Quote:
How should Israel respond?

By giving back that which it has expropriated.

Quote:
What would have happened if Israel did not defend itself in 1967 when it was attacked on three fronts?

See now this exposes your ignornace of actual facts, and holding "told to your" beliefs. Simply lazy ignorance propped up by what, racism, or religious beliefs?

Quote:
How do you defend organizations that display outright hatred of the Jewish state and its' people?

Why do they need defending?

Quote:
No one ever answers these types of questions, they only criticize Israel.

Of course they do, but you just do not want to listen, because it does not suit the delusion you ave created for yourself. And the following is a fine example of that delusion.

Quote:
The only way that peace will ever happen is when the Palestinian populas that actually want peace step up and demand that the terrorist activities stop. In order for the borders to open the cowardous terrorist acts must stop.

Frankly delusional spewing and I wonder why Michelle did not ban you at the same time as she did kdrunkin.

Thu, 2009-03-05 18:31

#33

thorin_bane

Oh he's a troll alright, but he is civil enough not to get tossed. For now. Likes to set out nice baiting questions in a passive aggressive fashion. As Johnny Cash would say "He walks the line"

Thu, 2009-03-05 19:09

#34

Cueball

Chester Drawers wrote:

Has any Israelis leader or group ever called on the ellimination of a state or group of people? Hamas, PLO and many others have puplically called for the complete analization of the Jewist state and its people.

I have never read of any Palestinian leaders calling for the analization of the Israeli State. But I imagine such talk goes on behind closed doors, if at all. In anycase as far as I can tell the state has been entirely analized by its leadership already.

Fri, 2009-03-06 12:16

#35

Ken Burch

If Hamas does ever analize Israel, I hope it only happens after a nice dinner and a movie.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________ Our Demands Most Moderate are/ We Only Want The World! -James Connolly

Fri, 2009-03-06 18:27

#36

Chester Drawers

Interesting evidence I believe.

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/7275.htm

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1bf_1206527402&to_friend=1

Quote - Care to provide examples of each individually, and so what if they did, I also call for the destruction of the USA and the thinking that has created it. As well as for the destruction of the Harpo government, and the thinking that has created it.

So Remind, do you believe that if someone thinks differently than you they are wrong and should be destroyed. Do you believe that since ideas can not be destroyed that those that hold those ideas are destroyed/killed? Stalin tried that so did the Khmir Rouge, did that work? How many millions died because they thought differently? Was that justifiable?

So based on your belief system because I'm conservative and voted for Harper then I should be destroyed?

Quote - Have you ever asked yourself why Palestinians are lobbing rockets across the border? That would be a good place to start your inquiries.

So you believe that that type of response is a civil ethical response to the issue. And I suppose you believe that the twin tower attack was justified as well. Or the trains in Spain or the hotels in Bali were all justifiable acts.

Fri, 2009-03-06 18:53

#37

Cueball

Yes, interesting indeed. I agree.

Unfortunately MEMRITV, run by former Israeli Military Intelligence Col. Yigal Carmon, does not see fit to translate from Hebrew to English the ravings of various Rabbi's whose speeches follow a similar patern of religious rhetoric and bombast but regarding Arabs and Muslims. Perhaps that is because he was also a "counter-terrorism" advisor to two Israeli Prime Ministers, and he thinks doing so might damage the cause, in the eyes of an all to gullible American public?

Also, some people have disputed the authenticity of the translations. In other words, check your sources CD, and dont believe everything you see on the internet.

Fri, 2009-03-06 18:54

#38

Sven

Unionist wrote:

I take your response as an acknowledgment that Iran has never overtly committed aggression against any other country.

I think it's fair to say that (although I'm willing to be corrected if I'm wrong).

Unionist wrote:

As for "covertly", I'm not sure. Did you have an example of "covert" Iranian aggression against another country?

I suppose the answer to that question lies in with whether or not a person believes any Western government claims that Iran funds, for example, suicide bombers. If a person does not accept those claims as having any credibility, then I suppose the most a person could say is, "We don't know if Iran has done anything covertly."

Of course, some might even concede that Iran does engage in such covert activities but will excuse those activities as being necessary to fight some oppressor and to assert that Iran is otherwise a peace-loving nation.

_______________________________________

[b]Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!![/b]

Fri, 2009-03-06 18:57

#39

Sven

To answer the question posed in this thread's title: No, I don't think Canadians are willing to die for Israel (certainly not many of them). In fact, I wonder how many Canadians would be willing to die for Canada??

_______________________________________

[b]Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!![/b]

Fri, 2009-03-06 19:01

#40

Cueball

Now he wants to wave our flag too. How quaint.

Fri, 2009-03-06 19:17

#41

Sven

Ken Burch wrote:

If Hamas does ever analize Israel, I hope it only happens after a nice dinner and a movie.

Yeah, and with Israel's consent...

_______________________________________

[b]Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!![/b]

Mon, 2009-03-09 18:23

#42

reality-check

When Iran expresses a desire to murder every single man, woman and child in Israel - where *gasp* innocent people live as well - this is AGGRESSION. We're not talking about Israel and Palestine or how Israel came into existence here. Iran's words equal aggression plain and simple. When Iran denies the Holocaust and genocide against the Jewish people and then attemps to obtain nukes - who will these nukes be used against? Iran controls Hezbollah - who not only provoked a pointless war with Israel, but Hezbollah also took over half of Beirut and shamelessly attacked Sunni and Druze in Lebanon for no reason at all back in May. They MURDERED their OWN PEOPLE simply because the Lebanese government wanted to check their illegal communications network! And that wasn't aggression?!? Iran has also been stirring up fanatical Shia clerics in Iraq, and Morocco cut off ties with Iran for attempting to begin another Shia insurgency in Bahrain! Iran actually said "BAHRAIN IS HISTORICALLY PART OF IRAN." If you cannot see that the current Iranian regime is attempting to establish a Shia Islamic state in Lebanon and Bahrain, and the entire Middle East then you're obviously seeing what you want to see and nothing more. Yeah, let's trust them with nukes!

Mon, 2009-03-09 18:28

#43

Lord Palmerston

Yeah, I guess we should nuke em, just to be safe.

Mon, 2009-03-09 19:16

#44

Unionist

reality-check wrote:
Yeah, let's trust [Iran] with nukes!

It's Ira[size=20]Q[/size] that has WMD, you donkey, not Ira[size=20]N[/size].

Can't even read a frickin' script... Sheesh.

Mon, 2009-03-09 20:04

#45

just one of the...

Iran has been controlled for decades by the west and then attacked mercilessly. Our leaders know that we are most certainly a bigger threat to Iranians than Iranians are to us. Blaming the victim is business as usual.

And can we leave out the oblique references to Zionist control myths? Britain and the U.S. have been meddling with Iran for much longer than Israel has been their block patroller in the region. It is putting the cart before the horse.

Frustrated Mess wrote:
Israel requires spineless, Christian fundies like Harper and his government to give them succor and to lend their nations as pawns.

Max Bialystock wrote:
Yes, Harper would be willing to risk Canadian lives for Israel. He is a puppet of the Zionist lobby.

Israel lobbies western countries to interfere with Iran and lower its relative regional power, but the western countries wouldn't oblige it if there was only tuna underneath the Persian Gulf. It's not because the West is a hapless puppet of zionists.

Mon, 2009-03-09 21:40

#46

Stockholm

"Britain and the U.S. have been meddling with Iran for much longer than Israel has been their block patroller in the region."

That's exactly my point - but there will always be people that will never acknowledge that ANYTHING in the world can ever happen that cannot be somehow linked to the "Zionist conspiracy".

Mon, 2009-03-09 21:58

#47

just one of the...

Well yes, while also recognizing that Israel still IS the resident armed thug in the region, making sure constant violence is the rule. Remember that the US let Israel bomb and intimidate indiscriminately while at the same time used it as a middleman to deal weapons for Iran.

Mon, 2009-03-09 22:10

#48

Unionist

Hey, joc, I'm just watching you with admiration here. Nothing to add or subtract. Thanks for your posts.

Mon, 2009-03-09 22:23

#49

al-Qa'bong

Stockholm wrote:

"Britain and the U.S. have been meddling with Iran for much longer than Israel has been their block patroller in the region."

That's exactly my point - but there will always be people that will never acknowledge that ANYTHING in the world can ever happen that cannot be somehow linked to the "Zionist conspiracy".

And what does that prove? There are people who believe in the Muldoon Curse, too.

Mon, 2009-03-09 22:55

#50

Unionist

FM, I prefer the old-fashioned explanation of U.S., Canadian, and European action in the world (which includes the Middle East) - imperialism. You can go with the temporary insanity due to religious delirium defence if you like.

Mon, 2009-03-09 22:58

#51

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Quote:
Israel lobbies western countries to interfere with Iran and lower its relative regional power, but the western countries wouldn't oblige it Well,

Yes and no.

Rational governments pursuing the cold logic of national interests, yes. But it has been pointed out, and the evidence has borne out the validity of the accusations, that Bush was not acting in the best national and security interests of the US in the mid-east. In fact, US prestige has been harmed almost beyond repair, US power has been exposed as more myth than reality, and the US economy has been left a shambles as it continues to bleed wealth.

Surely you must recognize that governments, like individuals, can get involved with the wrong crowd or can be subject to religious or other delusions. Bush said he invaded Iraq because he was dong God's work.

From Canada's perspective, it does nothing for Canada's role and prestige on the global stage to toss off the carefully cultivated role of honest broker, mediator, and peace keeper. But that is exactly what Harper is doing. For what? For Israel's pat on the collective Canadian head? I don't buy that. But I do suspect that Harper, and I know many of his senior cabinet members (think Stockwell Day), is/are evangelical end-timers who desire Christ to come again at the time of a global apocalypse centred on Jerusalem.

And Israel and its supporters are quite happy to perpetuate and exploit this Christian fundamentalism and absolute madness.

Quote:

if there was only tuna underneath the Persian Gulf. It's not because the West is a hapless puppet of zionists.

That serves my point. Perhaps in the wake of WWI and WWII there was a benefit to a beachhead in the land of cheap oil, but since then, and especially since 1973, US influence has gained substantially in the Arab world where all the major players, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Yemen, UAE, and Jordan were/are US protectorates and allies creating a diminishing need for a hostile and bellicose Israel in the region acting not always (and often not) in America's interests.

A rational actor could have brought Israel under control and brought about a stable and manageable middle-east years ago, certainly in the 80s and 90s, if there were not other factors at work.

But Bush was only in power since 2000 which means we need another explanation for the 80s and 90s. What could that be?

For example, because of the US's irrational support of Israel, Iran, a regional player with aspirations at best in the 80s and 90s, is now an important and rising regional power. Arab and Islamic support for the US has eroded to the point that it is no longer merely radicals and nationalists who hate the US but almost everyone.

The stability of America's Arab allies, always precarious due to their anti-democratic and often brutal regimes, are now viewed as weak and cowardly in the face of anti-Arab and anti-Islamic Israeli and US aggression and the entire region recognizes Israel only acts with the backing of the US.

By any measure, the US has not acted as a rational actor in the mid-east. So why not? And how do we explain our own government?

Are Canadians ready to die for Israel?

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