No and and there should be NO articles ouylaying an anti-union notion here at rabble/babble either.
Agreed. This is ridiculous.
Are workers' rights up for debate in the Labour and Consumption forum?
Tue, 2009-03-03 00:13
#102
Cueball
Tue, 2009-03-03 00:14
#103
Wouldn't the matter would be more appropriately addressed to the Rabble Editor?
Don't know what you're talking about, SJ. This is the problem:
... clearly these are discussions that need to be had, because the question of workers' rights when they affect the public (particularly when it affects the poorest the most) is one that is still [b]obviously not resolved by people on the left[/b] - otherwise we wouldn't have the ONDP legislating the TTC back to work, etc.
and this:
Places like babble should be where people on the left who are experiencing confusion or cognitive dissonance on this issue should be able to see rebuttals to such anti-labour positions, especially when [b]those positions are widespread among otherwise progressive people[/b].
and this:
And honestly, right now I think this issue of turning certain public sector workers into "essential workers" is one that people on the left struggle with right now. No, not people who are union activists and have been all their lives.
and this:
On issues where there is a general left consensus except for a few malcontents, I would consider it to be out of bounds and trolling to argue against it. But on this issue, [size=15]I just don't see the consensus yet[/size]...
Kassam's backward attack and attempt to split unionized workers from the poor would have been mercifully ignored. But a moderator opened a thread with it (and gave no opinion in the OP). Another moderator came to disrupt the thread by a pure defamatory provocation. And a third moderator closed the thread with a drive-by gratuitous attack.
This is not a rabble problem. It is a babble problem. And as for the "consensus", I trust that the outpouring of comments in these two threads will convince our mods that there is, indeed, a "consensus" among almost all babblers, including those who rarely agree on other issues.
Tue, 2009-03-03 00:22
#104
remind
No, and and there should be NO articles outlaying a anti-union notion here at rabble/babble either.
Tue, 2009-03-03 00:24
#105
Of course, you had absolutely no compunction being a snide derider, even if you did not feel compelled to be the "explainer". The object of your intervention was then to intervene to assert your moral superiority? The fact that you were "in the know"? Prove something? what?
Like you've never used snide derision in your repertoire. There's no assumption of moral superiority on my part, having been on the receiving end of explanations more times that I'd dare to forget. I provided you with a hint, the Hollywood western stereotype, and then saw that you did not draw the connection until it was subsequently explained further. I had hoped that you would have picked up on it before the more fulsome explanation became necessary, by someone who should not have had to explain it, but did so in any event, just as others have graciously demonstrated their patience with my unawareness. I focused on the positive of my own similar interactions, and I hope that you can as well.
Tue, 2009-03-03 00:25
#106
Cueball
I am deeply suspicious that the EFTO did not strike because of McGunity's decision to close down the strike of the almost totally irrelevant TA's union at York, and I am very very nervous about what the government of Ontario is going to do if OSSTF calls for a strike.
The attempt to ban the right to strike is a very serious issue.
Layton's belt tightening speech at the board of trade was not very impressive either, though fortunately the ONDP did not fold on the back to work legislation for the TA's union, like they did with Transit Workers here in Toronto.
Tue, 2009-03-03 00:32
#107
Cueball
Of course I use snide derrision. But if I am going to comment. I comment. I don't just let my snide remarks hang in tha air, without explanation. There is a difference.
One is a nudge and a wink followed by cackling in the schoolyard, the other is a direct challenge. One can be tackled directly, the other not.
If you don't feel that it is your position to "explain" something, then why on earth are you commenting for "effect" only. I just dont get that.
Tue, 2009-03-03 00:34
#108
Cueball
In your dreams. 
Tue, 2009-03-03 00:34
#109
I was holding back from wading further into a circumstance where I was not the affected party, waiting for your eureka moment.
Tue, 2009-03-03 00:38
#110
[]
Tue, 2009-03-03 00:38
#111
Closing for length and drift. Continued in [url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/rabble-reactions/babble-consensus-no-attacks... thread[/u][/color][/url].
Tue, 2009-03-03 00:39
#112
Cueball
A) Your comments were not at all helpful, and only seemed to be a way of establishing your position. That is the impression they made. Perhaps that was not your intent. But if you are going to "hold back" why not "hold back".
B) I didn't have a "eureka" moment. In fact I am highly doubtful that there is a problem with this phrase. I see the point. But don't really agree. Just like I don't think that the use of the phrase "black hole" is particularly offensive, except when used in a manner that is clearly intended to create offence.
Tue, 2009-03-03 00:42
#113
"Eureka" is a vicious slur against the ancient Greeks.
[size=15]Closing for length and drift. Continued in [url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/rabble-reactions/babble-consensus-no-attacks... thread[/u][/color][/url].[/size]
Tue, 2009-03-03 00:43
#114
Makwa
Closing for length and drift. Continued in [url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/rabble-reactions/babble-consensus-no-attacks... thread[/u][/color][/url].Actually, this thread has not been closed for either reason, but I do think the other thread begun by unionist does appear to be starting from a good point of analysis. I would suggest the anti-garment broadcloth hating thread drifters remain here and verbally pummel one another either to exhaustion or until someone closes it , and leave the other thread to the serious folks.
Even now / We are not lost: If you look out at the night / You'll see the colours and the lights seem to say / People are not far away, at least in distance, / And it's only our own dumb resistance / That's making us stay.
Tue, 2009-03-03 00:50
#115
I have no position within AR matters, and I feel it inappropriate to assume knowledge other than what others have passed on to me from their experiences and generosity. I felt it was inappropriate to attempt a Dufresnesque blathering on the topic, other than to attempt a drive by and hope that you would see it. You didn't, while still retaining the view that what others find offensive is not a problem for you, because you do not personally feel it.
Tue, 2009-03-03 00:58
#116
RevolutionPlease
I'm very disappointed at the direction the discussion has taken.
Tue, 2009-03-03 00:58
#117
remind
This is not a rabble problem. It is a babble problem. And as for the "consensus", I trust that the outpouring of comments in these two threads will convince our mods that there is, indeed, a "consensus" among almost all babblers, including those who rarely agree on other issues.
I think it is both a rabble and babble issue, and agree there is definitely a consensus, worker's rights are NOTonly not up for debate, neither are we up for attempts being made to undermine the solidarity of those who actually make the world work.
___________________________________________________________ "watching the tide roll away
Tue, 2009-03-03 01:02
#118
RevolutionPlease
Could everyone step back for a second and remember we have few allies mutually.
Tue, 2009-03-03 01:03
#119
Cueball
I have no position within AR matters, and I feel it inappropriate to assume knowledge other than what others have passed on to me from their experiences and generosity. I felt it was inappropriate to attempt a Dufresnesque blathering on the topic, other than to attempt a drive by and hope that you would see it. You didn't, while still retaining the view that what others find offensive is not a problem for you, because you do not personally feel it.
Well you did assume knowledge didn't you? If not your derrsive comment came from nowhere?
Now you are continuing to insist, without reservation that the term "circle the wagons" is essentially racist, even though, when explained, the person who took offence seemed to be alluding to the possibility that not all FN's commentators universally agree that the term "circle the wagons is without arguement essentially racist.
"Anyway, Cueball, I think you have a reasonable question. Many FN commentators bristle at the use of this imagery because it reproduces the ubiquitous 19th century racist cinematic..."
Notice first of all, that the term "many" not "all" is operative. I think that is somewhat different than the explanation one would recieve if one were dicussing the term "wagon burners" where I think the condemnation would be universal. Even and old dyed in the wool Archie Bunker type white supremacist such as myself can see that.'
Notice now, secondly that you have indeed decided to become an "explainer," even after the fact of the explanation has been offered, and accepted as a legitimate perspective.
Tue, 2009-03-03 01:05
#120
Cueball
Sure. But mostly they are not here. This is the prattling forum one comes to when one is bored with the allies ones really has, and instead decides to make pretend about the allies we wish we had.
Tue, 2009-03-03 01:08
#121
RevolutionPlease
I thought it was a bit more complicated but I'll go back to reading and trying to understand.
Tue, 2009-03-03 01:10
#122
Well, you asked me to explain the rationale for my earlier abbreviated comments, which I've done, and now you suggest that I shouldn't have answered your question. Interesting. But really, in light of this...
Notice first of all, that the term "many" not "all" is operative. I think that is somewhat different than the explanation one would recieve if one were dicussing the term "wagon burners" where I think the condemnation would be universal. Even and old dyed in the wool white supremacist such as myself can see that.'
....I will gladly abdicate the unwelcomed role as explainer-in-chief and leave you too it. And besides, it's getting late on this corner of the Island.
Tue, 2009-03-03 01:11
#123
[]
Tue, 2009-03-03 01:16
#124
Makwa
Could everyone step back for a second and remember we have few allies mutually.I think that is a good point to remember. I have met/read very few white people I would consider to be anti-racist allies, but then again, I wouldn't expect to. Why would someone go to the difficulty of constantly challenging oneself and others within one's social networks on a daily basis if it were not necessary? A similar dynamic may exist within the progressive labour movement. Me, I go on strike when called to, am grateful for the benefits to which my union has helped me to enjoy, vote, and wish everyone could have a union of their own, but I still absolutely loath Jack London. (PS, if that's not pro-labour enough, well 'poo.' If you like, I'll promise to go to more meetings, and I really mean it this time.)
Even now / We are not lost: If you look out at the night / You'll see the colours and the lights seem to say / People are not far away, at least in distance, / And it's only our own dumb resistance / That's making us stay.
Tue, 2009-03-03 01:16
#125
~~~~~~~~~~
Tue, 2009-03-03 01:16
#126
[size=18]Closing for length and drift. Continued in [url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/rabble-reactions/babble-consensus-no-attacks... thread[/url].[/size][/color][/size]
Tue, 2009-03-03 01:17
#127
Cueball
That's a quote. I think I can read and comprehend the meaning fairly well, and if I got it wrong, the person who is the right one to do some more, as you say, "explaining", then they may. In the mean time, rather than playing the chorus, why not dig in with your own views.... or not... if you don't think its your place.
Stage is set. Lights on. Go...
Tue, 2009-03-03 01:17
#128
Sven
[size=18]Closing for length and drift. Continued in [url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/rabble-reactions/babble-consensus-no-attacks... thread[/url].[/size][/color][/size]
What was that you said, sonny? I can't hear you. Could you shout that a bit louder? 
_______________________________________
[b]Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!![/b]
Tue, 2009-03-03 01:21
#129
Makwa
You have in fact started a nice new thread, which was begun in an excellent fashion, and I would urge everyone to visit, but this thread is not actually closed, so you needn't shout at everyone like that. Ta.[size=18]Closing for length and drift. Continued in [url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/rabble-reactions/babble-consensus-no-attacks... thread[/url].[/size][/color][/size]
[/quote] Even now / We are not lost: If you look out at the night / You'll see the colours and the lights seem to say / People are not far away, at least in distance, / And it's only our own dumb resistance / That's making us stay.
Tue, 2009-03-03 01:21
#130
Cueball
Could everyone step back for a second and remember we have few allies mutually.I think that is a good point to remember. I have met/read very few white people I would consider to be anti-racist allies, but then again, I wouldn't expect to. Why would someone go to the difficulty of constantly challenging oneself and others within one's social networks on a daily basis if it were not necessary?
Achilles starts out with many "allies" and finds himself alone, with none. I'd say I have about 10, and I think I am lucky. I don't think I can afford to count them on the basis of abstract political concepts, because if I were to, on the basis of those credentials, I would have fewer still.
Tue, 2009-03-03 07:32
#131
Well, I'll close it now, since Unionist asked so nicely.
Sorry I haven't been back since yesterday morning - I've had a very busy day yesterday, went to an Israeli Apartheid event last night, and I've got another busy day today so I haven't had a chance to sit down for any length of time and respond. I'm not ignoring the thread, just busy right now. I've read this though, just have to run because I have a doctor's appointment this morning. Sorry again for not responding right away.
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