The Afghan people will win - Part 1

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Tue, 2009-03-03 00:31

Unionist

[Sorry - when even Kommandant Harper says "we" can't win the war, it's embarrassing to post to a thread on a left-wing board that calls it a "stalemate."]

[url=http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/03/02/afghan-report.html][color=red]C... military finds Canadian military innocent in children's death[/color][/url]

Quote:
A deadly blast that killed three Afghan children was caused by an improvised explosive device, not Canadian munitions, military officials said Monday. ...

The three children were killed following a blast on Feb. 23 near the village of Salehan, about 15 kilometres southwest of Kandahar city.

Demonstrators shouted "Death to Canada" and "Death to America" as the blood-spattered bodies of two of the children were carted off to the gates of the Kandahar governor's guest house. One other child later died.

A Panjwaii district elder had claimed the blast was the result of an unexploded Canadian mortar the victims found in a field where they were scavenging for scrap metal.

Well, that's a relief.

Tue, 2009-03-03 00:51

Fidel

Maybe NATO and multinationals will not succeed with colonizing Afghanistan. But there is still a lot of fun and profit in trying. Malalai Joya says the Taliban have been buying weapons from Karzai's Northern Alliance commanders in government. The fix is in.

And if and when they do retreat from Afghanistan, their friends the Taliban are on deck and will drag that country from the gutter to the sewer with theocratic feudalism part two.

The Taliban - medieval feudalists influenced by Pakistan's ISI, which is an extension of the American CIA. And ordinary Afghans - the ones not among the millions able to flee that country after 1992 - will pay the price for generations to come. What a mess.

Tue, 2009-03-03 00:51

Unionist

You've got the CIA winning both ways, Fidel, as usual.

In my book, it's the Afghan people who will win. And anyone who stands in their way will "pay the price for generations to come".

As the Soviet people found out.

What a mess.

Tue, 2009-03-03 01:06

Fidel

Not me. It's Malalai Joya who referred to Afghan reports of 2007. Soviets backed neither the mujahideen nor the Taliban. But they did supply the NVA and VC with a few crude weapons, just as the "Northern Alliance" figures in Karzai's government have been supplying the Taliban.

The Taliban are very religious, unionist. I didnt know you were so high on religion. Taliban fundamentalism was never the religion of most ordinary Afghans. Pakistanis are angry about the Talibanization of their country since the 1980s and 90s. It was never put to so much as a vote or referendum in either country.

Tue, 2009-03-03 01:15

Unionist

Fidel wrote:

The Taliban are very religious, unionist. I didnt know you were so high on religion.

I support anyone fighting against the imperialist invaders - even [i]Catholics[/i].

Tue, 2009-03-03 01:34

Webgear

Who are the Afghan people? Would you include Pasthuns in Pakistan? Clans and tribes divided by colonial empires' lines on maps drawn in the 1800s?

Or Tajiks and there brethren from other countries fighting against the Taliban in Northern Afghanistan?

How about the Harazs? Brutally enslaved people beaten down by just about everyone else in the country?

Your opening statement is overly simplistic and naive.

On another note, if you look at the blast site on where the children were killed, it is obvious that no mortar round could create a crater that size. I would recommend looking at the CTV news reports, if you have not seen the images of the blast site.

______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.

Tue, 2009-03-03 01:44

Unionist

Webgear wrote:

Who are the Afghan people?

They're not the U.S., the Canadians, the Dutch, the Poles, the Brits, the French, the Albanians, or whatever other cannon fodder have been dragged there.

They're the people who live there - irrespective of language, ethnicity, colour, religion or sect. The people - with all their disagreements and feuds and history and cunning and brilliance and determination to destroy the enemy.

The people who live there. The only ones who will decide whether Muslims or Communists or Progressive Conservatives or whatever will rule. And they will decide on their own, and (as I said before) crush anyone who stands in the way.

They're my kind of people, and I support them. I wish them victory.

[i]¡HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE![/i]

Quote:
Your opening statement is overly simplistic and naive.

Maybe. But just watch and wait.

Quote:
On another note, if you look at the blast site on where the children were killed, it is obvious that no mortar round could create a crater that size. I would recommend looking at the CTV news reports, if you have not seen the images of the blast site.

I'm not interested in your or CTV's or the invaders' conclusions. The people, and their local leaders, blamed Canada and America, and wished them death, for the slaughter of their children. I am with the people.

Tue, 2009-03-03 02:00

Fidel

Unionist wrote:
Fidel wrote:

The Taliban are very religious, unionist. I didnt know you were so high on religion.

I support anyone fighting against the imperialist invaders - even [i]Catholics[/i].

Haitians, too, have a proud history of rebelling against their former slavers. And theyve tried rebelling against the nouveau colonizers, about 25 times from last century to this one. The difference in that country has been that the peasant rebels are never armed well enough against the CIA-backed colonials. Whereas with the Pak-Afghan situation, weapons and ammunition have been dealt to all the wrong people again.

As Canadian John Ryan said about the PDPA government which outlasted the USSR itself by over a year, the Afghan-PDPA volunteer fighters might have held out longer against the mujahideen had they a decent supply of weapons. The Afghan PDPAs did defeat the mujahideen at two major dustups. But the mujahideen were armed to the eye teeth then and CIA pulling in jihadi mercenaries to the region from about 40 Islamic countries. As Ms Joya said, I think the US-led NATO occupation is there and using the Taliban as a cover, a reason for being there. And now one Canadian mining company has lost out on a contract to develop mineral deposits to the Chinese by a Canadian military-Afghan "economic liberalization" scheme. I think they are attempting to have China and other regional governments join them in colonizing Afghanistan.

Tue, 2009-03-03 02:01

Webgear

Unionist wrote:

Quote:
On another note, if you look at the blast site on where the children were killed, it is obvious that no mortar round could create a crater that size. I would recommend looking at the CTV news reports, if you have not seen the images of the blast site.

I'm not interested in your or CTV's or the invaders' conclusions. The people, and their local leaders, blamed Canada and America, and wished them death, for the slaughter of their children. I am with the people.

Interesting concept, ignore the evidence and make up the verdict, convict anyone that stands against you.

______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.

Tue, 2009-03-03 02:07

#10

Unionist

Your military colleagues are not authorized to investigate and render verdicts in Afghanistan, Webgear. I believe the victims over the aggressors. Sorry.

Tue, 2009-03-03 19:09

#11

Kindrid

Quote:

Interesting concept, ignore the evidence and make up the verdict, convict anyone that stands against you.

Not very interesting at all. Typical of people like Stalin or Pol Pot.

Tue, 2009-03-03 19:43

#12

Fidel

Oh sure, everyone remembers Pol Pot, the biggest mass murderer after Hitler

Tue, 2009-03-03 20:20

#13

Kindrid

Quote:

The administration of President Ronald Reagan was persuaded to support the ultimately successful effort to get Vietnam to withdraw from Cambodia in September 1989 so that elections under United Nations supervision could be held for a new government. The elections were held in 1993 but were boycotted by the Khmer Rouge.

American, Singaporean, Malaysian and Thai officials held regular meetings in Bangkok to coordinate the Cambodian aid program, Mr. Lee wrote in his book, "From Third World to First: The Singapore Story 1965-2000," which went on sale Sept. 16.

He said the Singapore representative "estimated that the United States dispensed a total of about $150 million in covert and overt aid to the non-Communist groups, Singapore $55 million, Malaysia $10 million and Thailand a few million in training, ammunition, food and operational funds."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2000/09/29/khmer.2.t.php

It seems like US policy was successful in driving the Vietnamese out of the country and establishing a democracy in Cambodia. Notice US supported non-Communist forces.

Tue, 2009-03-03 20:25

#14

Jingles

Wow. After years of vicious, murderous terror bombing of Cambodia by the US, it is your contention that the US brought "democracy" there.

Un-fucking believable.

Tue, 2009-03-03 20:28

#15

Webgear

Unionist wrote:
Your military colleagues are not authorized to investigate and render verdicts in Afghanistan, Webgear. I believe the victims over the aggressors. Sorry.

With your approval, who is allowed to conduct investigations in Kandahar Province?

______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.

Tue, 2009-03-03 20:35

#16

Kindrid

Quote:
Wow. After years of vicious, murderous terror bombing of Cambodia

What were the North Vietnamese doing in neutral Cambodia?

Tue, 2009-03-03 20:37

#17

Fidel

From Pilger's "Long Secret Alliance"

Quote:

"The US not only helped to create conditions that brought Cambodia's Khmer Rouge to power in 1975, but actively supported the genocidal force, politically and financially. By January 1980, the US was secretly funding Pol Pot's exiled forces on the Thai border. The extent of this support -- $85 million from 1980-86 -- was revealed 6 years later in correspondence between congressional lawyer Jonathan Winer, then counsel to Sen. John Kerry (D-MA) of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and the Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation."

Quote:
"We delivered weapons to the Khmer Rouge on the coastline of Cambodia." We went out of Ha Tien, which is right in Vietnam. We went north up into the border. And I have some photographs of that, and that's what we did. So, you know, the two were jumbled together, but we were on the Cambodian border on Christmas Eve, absolutely. - US senator John Kerry, Meet the Press transcript, 2005

The US CIA and their British pals supported the biggest mass murderer since Adolf Hitler for 15 years. And the doctor and the madman's off the record bombing of Cambodia to kingdom come was mass murder, too.

Tue, 2009-03-03 20:43

#18

Kindrid

The US supported non-Communist forces after the Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia and provided some humanitarian aid in refugee camps.

Tue, 2009-03-03 20:48

#19

Kindrid

Quote:
"We delivered weapons to the Khmer Rouge on the coastline of Cambodia." We went out of Ha Tien, which is right in Vietnam. We went north up into the border. And I have some photographs of that, and that's what we did. So, you know, the two were jumbled together, but we were on the Cambodian border on Christmas Eve, absolutely. - US senator John Kerry, Meet the Press transcript, 2005"

Ha ha ha ha…. That is a lie and Kerry got ripped in the election because he told that fib. It makes no sense because at the time the Khmer Rouge was supported by North Vietnam.

Tue, 2009-03-03 20:53

#20

Fidel

LLLLLLIES!

Tue, 2009-03-03 20:54

#21

Fidel

Kindrid wrote:

Quote:
"We delivered weapons to the Khmer Rouge on the coastline of Cambodia." We went out of Ha Tien, which is right in Vietnam. We went north up into the border. And I have some photographs of that, and that's what we did. So, you know, the two were jumbled together, but we were on the Cambodian border on Christmas Eve, absolutely. - US senator John Kerry, Meet the Press transcript, 2005"

Ha ha ha ha…. That is a lie and Kerry got ripped in the election because he told that fib. It makes no sense because at the time the Khmer Rouge was supported by North Vietnam.

Youre so full of shit that your eyes must be brown by now

Tue, 2009-03-03 20:55

#22

Kindrid

Quote:
The US not only helped to create conditions that brought Cambodia's Khmer Rouge to power in 1975

The Khmer Rouge was created by North Vietnam. They were not popular in Cambodia. If North Vietnam respected Cambodia’s neutrality, the US would have never bombed Cambodia.

Tue, 2009-03-03 20:55

#23

Michelle

Kindrid and thoughtpolice are trolls, and they're banned. Not for anything specific in this thread (I haven't bothered to read their posts here) but because they're just trolling babble for sport.

Tue, 2009-03-03 21:48

#24

Fidel

And thanks for sparing us kindrid's bad history lesson, Michelle

Tue, 2009-03-03 22:38

#25

Unionist

Webgear wrote:

With your approval, who is allowed to conduct investigations in Kandahar Province?

The Afghan people and their freely chosen representatives. Not invaders nor any officials that they install.

Tue, 2009-03-03 23:21

#26

Webgear

Can you provide any names?

How can you tell which officials have been freely chosen by the people and which officials have been installed by the invaders?

______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.

Tue, 2009-03-03 23:29

#27

Unionist

Webgear wrote:

Can you provide any names?

No, the names are provided by the sovereign Afghan people when they establish their own method of selection.

Quote:
How can you tell which officials have been freely chosen by the people and which officials have been installed by the invaders?

Easy. The invaders leave. The officials left over are the ones chosen by the people.

I reject your adverb "freely", because it's when foreigners apply such terms that they get itchy trigger fingers and decide to invade to graciously deliver "democracy" to others. Free the Afghan people of our troops, and they will be free to make their choices.

Tue, 2009-03-03 23:32

#28

Cueball

What business of it is of your Unionist how they select their leadership, and so on?

Tue, 2009-03-03 23:36

#29

Unionist

Cueball wrote:
What business of it is of your Unionist how they select their leadership, and so on?

None. That's what I said. It's the business of the Afghan people, alone. Our business is to leave.

I'm sure Webgear understood what I said. What did you think I said, Cueball?

Tue, 2009-03-03 23:37

#30

Cueball

Exactly.

Tue, 2009-03-03 23:43

#31

Webgear

Unionist wrote:
Webgear wrote:

Can you provide any names?

No, the names are provided by the sovereign Afghan people when they establish their own method of selection.

Quote:
How can you tell which officials have been freely chosen by the people and which officials have been installed by the invaders?

Easy. The invaders leave. The officials left over are the ones chosen by the people.

I reject your adverb "freely", because it's when foreigners apply such terms that they get itchy trigger fingers and decide to invade to graciously deliver "democracy" to others. Free the Afghan people of our troops, and they will be free to make their choices.

What if the sovereign people of Afghanistan have decided to choose the some officials at this time such has the Chief of Police for Kandahar province, would you accept his statement?

Would you accept a statement from someone elected before the King Mohammad Zahir Shah was overthrown in 1973? Or does the offical have to be elected after 1973 but before the Soviet invasion?

______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.

Tue, 2009-03-03 23:46

#32

Cueball

Trying to define what is moral by using a measure defined by the immorality of others only perpetuates the original problem.

Tue, 2009-03-03 23:51

#33

Unionist

Webgear wrote:

What if the sovereign people of Afghanistan have decided to choose the some officials at this time such has the Chief of Police for Kandahar province, would you accept his statement?

Not before the invaders leave. In case you didn't notice, even Peter Mackay has a say in who is in charge in Kandahar. It's brutal when you invade a country. Let them all leave, then we can see who truly has the people's confidence. Can't tell now.

Quote:
Would you accept a statement from someone elected before the King Mohammad Zahir Shah was overthrown in 1973? Or does the offical have to be elected after 1973 but before the Soviet invasion?

I was thinking more like 2009. The invaders leave, then the Afghan people send everyone a text message saying who their representatives are. Or, they may use Twitter or Facebook. The invaders must leave.

In the meantime, if I have to trust anyone, I will trust the slogans shouted by angry Afghans risking their lives to denounce Canada and Amerika in the streets, long before I trust any Canadian military investigators. I believe the Canadian military received the same kind of Honesty Seminars as the RCMP currently testifying in the Dziekanski inquiry.

Tue, 2009-03-03 23:56

#34

Webgear

I was wondering before we get side tracked of who speaks for the people of Afghanistan, can you make provide any evidence that is was a Canadian mortar that killed the children.

A man checks a crater on Tuesday, Feb.24, 2009, caused by an explosion in the village of Saleha Afghanistan, that reportedly killed three children. (A.R. Khan / THE CANADIAN PRESS)

Picture provided by CTV News.

That hole is large rather for an 81mm or 60mm mortar in my professional opinion.

______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.

Wed, 2009-03-04 00:01

#35

Webgear

Unionist wrote:

I believe the Canadian military received the same kind of Honesty Seminars as the RCMP currently testifying in the Dziekanski inquiry.

Actually there was a lot of RCMP in the last seminar I was at, it was a good time. The instructors were wonderful people from several unions such as CAW and CUPE and the federal NDP.

______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.

Wed, 2009-03-04 00:04

#36

Unionist

Webgear wrote:

I was wondering before we get side tracked of who speaks for the people of Afghanistan, can you make provide any evidence that is was a Canadian mortar that killed the children.

Picture provided by CTV News.

Who took that photo, and what is it a photo of?

ETA: From the RAWA website:

Quote:
Ghazi Toor Jan, an ex-mujahedeen fighter during the Soviet occupation who is blind in one eye, admitted he only heard the blast and didn't actually see what happened to his children. But he insisted he heard the sound of an incoming mortar prior to the explosion. "I can understand from sound that it was mortar and was fired by Canadians," said Jan, 47. Other witnesses, such as Mohammad Zahir, angrily pointed to the crater in the gravel road where the children had been walking. "It was not some stuff (that) children found and were playing with, because it made a crater in the land (that) shows it was fired from somewhere," Zahir told local journalists who toured the scene.

Mind you, they're only locals, so what do they know?

Wed, 2009-03-04 00:09

#37

Webgear

Unionist

The photo was taken by an CTV reporter, most likely an Afghan reporter. The photo is of the blast site of the presumed Canadian mortar round.

CTV had reported the story initially, they provide the pictures of the angry Afghans and the dead children.

______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.

Wed, 2009-03-04 00:13

#38

Cueball

Would the bomb/and or mortar round have gone off, if Canadian forces had not been in Khandahar province?

Wed, 2009-03-04 00:20

#39

Webgear

Unionist

Can you tell the difference between a Canadian and Taliban mortar?

Did Ghazi Toor Jan see the Canadians fire a mortar that killed his children? Is it not possible that the Taliban fired the mortar round?

Lets explored the possibilities.

______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.

Wed, 2009-03-04 00:21

#40

Cueball

Yes, lets. Would the bomb, or mortar round have gone off if Canadian forces not been in Kandahar province?

Wed, 2009-03-04 00:25

#41

Webgear

Yes, it could have.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.

Wed, 2009-03-04 00:27

#42

Cueball

Well one might as well say it might have gone off at Yonge and St. Clair too.

Wed, 2009-03-04 00:30

#43

Webgear

It is a possibility.

______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.

Wed, 2009-03-04 00:32

#44

Cueball

So, all this killing is because killing would be "possible" somewhere at sometime?

Wed, 2009-03-04 00:49

#45

Webgear

In the other thread discussing this story, I posted an article from a website that stated nearly 800 people died in Afghanistan from UXOs.

The UN reports that in 2008, more than 82,000 anti-personnel mines and 900 anti-tank mines were cleared in Afghanistan, many of which were left behind in the 1980s.

Even the CTV article implies there are many minefields in the area of this village.

It is quite possible these kids would have been killed or injured by a UXO or mine from previous wars.

___________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.

Wed, 2009-03-04 00:51

#46

Cueball

Do Canadian forces also place mines in the vicinity of their facilities?

Wed, 2009-03-04 01:04

#47

Webgear

No, we do not.

______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.

Wed, 2009-03-04 01:05

#48

Cueball

Do the Americans?

Wed, 2009-03-04 01:08

#49

Webgear

I am not sure. I am not aware American minefields.

______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.

Wed, 2009-03-04 01:10

#50

Cueball

Well. Minfields are not usually so effective if you tell everyone where they are.

Wed, 2009-03-04 01:15

#51

Webgear

I believe it is customary to make all minefields, I believe it is a Geneva Convention.

Even the Russian's marked some of their minefields during the war.

______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.

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