1st post deliberately left blank
Anti-native racism in the working class
Sun, 2009-03-22 16:10
#1
Left Turn
Anti-native racism in the working class
Fri, 2009-03-20 03:19
#2
Left Turn
There is a lot of anti-native racism in the working class, and left activists need to play a role in combatting the anti-native racism within the working class.
The anti-native racism within the working class exists alongside the institutional racism against Indiginous peoples that is perpetuated by the Canadian state.
Fri, 2009-03-20 03:40
#3
Of course, ruling class folks do not share this racism, being entitled to stay at a safe distance from FN people, on Canada's best lands, which their ancestors violently appropriated a few centuries back.
Let the underclasses fight it out at the flash points of their respective ghettoes, eh?
Fri, 2009-03-20 08:20
#4
It would be so nice if people wouldn't just automatically assume the very worst about other people's motives behind their posts here.
I don't think Left Turn is implying that there is no racism in the ruling classes. I think the point of this thread is to discuss ways to build solidarity and awareness among non-FN working class people about colonialism and racism in order to share struggles in a way that isn't oppressive.
Fri, 2009-03-20 08:44
#5
Catchfire
In fact, the second part of LT's post is:
The anti-native racism within the working class exists alongside the institutional racism against Indiginous peoples that is perpetuated by the Canadian state.
Fri, 2009-03-20 09:30
#6
You could have merely said that through education and awareness, some measure of solidarity could be developed through which we might play a supporting role, while bearing in mind that we do not own the struggle.
Fri, 2009-03-20 09:42
#7
"It would be so nice if people wouldn't just automatically assume the very worst about other people's motives behind their posts here."
I didn't, Michelle. I merely attempted to complete a picture, suggesting one reason why the racism of the rich - not the same as institutionalized State racism - is less visible (unless you're a domestic worker ETA: or are facing mining company or resort area stockholders). I agree the sarcasm needlessly pushed my post beyond the pale.
If I were to look for a possible motive in LT's post - not someting I tend to do -, I would guess it would be merely along the lines of 'racism dividing people who need to work together against a common oppressor', a traditional (missionary) position of some in the Left.
Fri, 2009-03-20 16:38
#8
Left Turn, can you provide support to back your statement that there is anti-native racism in the working class?
Fri, 2009-03-20 22:03
#9
RevolutionPlease
I don't think that's really necessary if this is an honest discussion.
Fri, 2009-03-20 22:28
#10
Left Turn, can you provide support to back your statement that there is anti-native racism in the working class?
I take it you've never been around/in the working class?
Fri, 2009-03-20 22:35
#11
At what point should someone call gross classism here?
Fri, 2009-03-20 22:38
#12
Left Turn, can you provide support to back your statement that there is anti-native racism in the working class?
Fri, 2009-03-20 22:42
#13
At what point should someone call gross classism here?
Martin, for those of us who are actually part of organizations of workers and spend our lives trying to figure out how to fight against real enemies and real injustices (instead of ourselves), we have to recognize the effects of racism in our ranks and how it divides and weakens and diverts us. It's got nothing to do with being "missionary". It's a simple matter of self-preservation for workers of all races and creeds and genders and orientations. That's why within our ranks we have to ensure that Aboriginal workers (for example) are enabled when it comes to having their own voice and leading.
Fri, 2009-03-20 22:43
#14
RevolutionPlease
Martin, are you saying it's all on the ruling elite and workers play no role? I'm confused on the classism issue?
Fri, 2009-03-20 22:50
#15
Divide and weaken is precisely what I am fighting here when this whole discussion rests on a selective presentation of anti-native racism as a working class problem. I alluded to a more inclusive view in my first post. I can't make that more clear, sorry.
Fri, 2009-03-20 22:50
#16
RevolutionPlease
That's why within our ranks we have to ensure that Aboriginal workers (for example) are enabled when it comes to having their own voice and leading.
If you had left out "workers" after aboriginal and substituted "people", I would support that 100%, not sure why the "worker" was necessary. I'm probably missing something but so would most folk.
Fri, 2009-03-20 22:51
#17
saga
That's why within our ranks we have to ensure that Aboriginal workers (for example) are enabled when it comes to having their own voice and leading.
If you had left out "workers" after aboriginal and substituted "people", I would support that 100%, not sure why the "worker" was necessary. I'm probably missing something but so would most folk.
Because he's talking about unions.
Fri, 2009-03-20 22:54
#18
RevolutionPlease
Divide and weaken is precisely what I am fighting here when this whole discussion rests on a selective presentation of anti-native racism as a working class problem. I alluded to a more inclusive view in my first post. I can't make that more clear, sorry.
I agree but am of the mind that the working class are the only one's who will be able to effect change. And we need more solidarity. Working-class can be just as ass-backward to FN issues. True, it's the selljob by the elite but the OP has a point we can do more to present the truth.
I don't like it either Martin but we have more sway with workers than the elite at the moment.
Fri, 2009-03-20 22:58
#19
Divide and weaken is precisely what I am fighting here when this whole discussion rests on a selective presentation of anti-native racism as a working class problem. I alluded to a more inclusive view in my first post. I can't make that more clear, sorry.
Martin, it's not either/or. I agree with you, it's not a "working class problem". But it is, also, a problem in the working class, and I took Left Turn's question to be a challenge as to how we deal with it within the working class. I honestly don't see much to disagree about here.
Fri, 2009-03-20 23:08
#20
RevolutionPlease
I'm back with Martin, after thinking about it, what can we really do? The media message is so disgusting it's hard to undo that brainwashing by the elite.
But try we must.
Fri, 2009-03-20 23:18
#21
We could start by including ourselves in the problem description, owning our own anti-native prejudices instead of making it something about them whom we have "sway" upon.
(Maybe I'd better sit this one out... and wait for the discussion about "sexism among Blacks"..
.)
Fri, 2009-03-20 23:22
#22
It's got nothing to do with "sway" - who said that? We're workers, there are divisions endemic to the society, these divisions help disenfranchise us, and so our need for unity and standing impels us to overcome them. Likewise with sexism and homophobia and anti-Québec chauvinism and others. Of course we are part of the problem. But we don't stop there. Nor do we "wait" for someone else to deal with it.
Fri, 2009-03-20 23:30
#23
RevolutionPlease
We could start by including ourselves in the problem description, owning our own anti-native prejudices instead of making it something about them whom we have "sway" upon.
(Maybe I'd better sit this one out... and wait for the discussion about "sexism among Blacks"..
Well, I said "sway with workers" but have no idea how that was offensive and I do include myself and others around me as part of the problem and we're looking for solutions. It would also be appreciated if you edited your post Martin, that is not helpful.
I feel like dropping a slur on an other we're supposed to be in solidarity with. Will edit if you do Martin.
Fri, 2009-03-20 23:33
#24
It's got nothing to do with "sway" - who said that? We're workers, there are divisions endemic to the society, these divisions help disenfranchise us, and so our need for unity and standing impels us to overcome them. Likewise with sexism and homophobia and anti-Québec chauvinism and others. Of course we are part of the problem. But we don't stop there. Nor do we "wait" for someone else to deal with it.
It doesn't help when the issue is discussed as if it were simply a matter of "colour prejudice" or "white people" and "people of colour". In fact, it has a whole lot to do with economic realities. (note: I am not saying that it's solely a function of economic realities. But I'd better just shut up.)
Fri, 2009-03-20 23:38
#25
RevolutionPlease
Everybody should shut up if they're trying to excuse or deny working to defeat FN racism in the working class. Yes, it's a product of the state but we all own it and workers need to learn that.
There seems too many nuanced answers and I want the truth.
Fri, 2009-03-20 23:43
#26
Everybody should shut up if they're trying to excuse or deny working to defeat FN racism in the working class. Yes, it's a product of the state but we all own it and workers need to learn that.
I wasn't talking about the state. And who says we aren't working to defeat it?
Fri, 2009-03-20 23:48
#27
RevolutionPlease
Sorry Rosa, I'm not getting nuances and Martin seems to want to deny it.
I have no clue what you were trying to say.
And I say that the working class is doing a very piss-poor job if they're even trying to educate about FN issues. Maybe it's slow-slogging.
Fri, 2009-03-20 23:56
#28
Sorry Rosa, I'm not getting nuances and Martin seems to want to deny it.I have no clue what you were trying to say.
My fault. I wasn't clear.
Sat, 2009-03-21 00:00
#29
RevolutionPlease
And you don't care to clarify?
Sat, 2009-03-21 00:09
#30
RevolutionPlease
I think if posters aren't for advocating for FN issues they shouldn't post in this forum, whatever the class.
Sat, 2009-03-21 00:20
#31
RevolutionPlease
Apologies for speaking my part, I beg our FN to be heard. They can help us overcome. Solidarity.
Sat, 2009-03-21 00:26
#32
And you don't care to clarify?
It would have to be a very long post and it's late. Maybe I'll try tomorrow if the discussion is still civil 
Sat, 2009-03-21 04:16
#33
Left Turn
I don't think Left Turn is implying that there is no racism in the ruling classes. I think the point of this thread is to discuss ways to build solidarity and awareness among non-FN working class people about colonialism and racism in order to share struggles in a way that isn't oppressive.
Thanks Michelle. This is basically the point of the thread. That and the question of why it's important to struggle against anti-native racism in the working class in the first place.
As a socialist, I believe that the struggle for Indigenous rights is a key struggle in the fight against capitalism. Addressing Indigenous rights clearly means recognizing that Canada is a colonial state founded on the theft of Indigenous land. The solution will invariably involve Indigenous peoples being able to self-govern large parts of their traditional territory. It may ultimately involve the displacement of some non-Indigenous people in rural and northern Canada. Ultimately I know that this is for the better, since the success of the Indigenous rights struggle is necessary for the free development of Indigenous people, and ultimately all of humanity.
Clearly, the ruling class will stand in the way of Indigenous peoples asserting their traditional rights, because meaningful assertion of Indigenous rights is not possible under capitalism. At the same time, the working class will stand in the way of meaningful assertion of Indigenous rights as long as they continue their learned anti-native racism, some of which is more overt, and some of which is more subtle and unconscious. Working class political organizations do not automatically take up the struggle for Indigenous self determination. Part of the goal of Indigenous solidarity is to convince workers that it is actually in their interest to fight for Indigenous self-determination.
Sat, 2009-03-21 09:09
#34
I have a friend who teaches "Aboriginal Solidarity 101" courses. He aims these courses at left-wing and working class non-FN activist audiences because he thinks it's important for non-FN activists to learn not only how to organize in ways that include and do not oppress FN people, but also how to ensure that indigenous issues are not marginalized within the movement.
It's extremely important work, and very necessary. Does that mean he thinks that only working class activists have racist and colonialist attitudes towards indigenous people? No, it means that he's addressing a problem within the movements, and it's valuable work to do. And it won't get done if whenever you bring it up, people get all defensive and claim that people are being "divisive" and try to shift the discussion to the worse racism and colonialist attitudes of the ruling classes.
And that's also the difference between talking about this on babble, and talking about "sexism among blacks" on babble. I think this site is predominantly working-class people with activist (or activist-sympathetic) backgrounds, so it makes sense for us as a group to discuss anti-native racism within our ranks.
Although of course I can't know for sure what percentage of babblers are black, my feeling is that most of us aren't, so a similar discussion about "sexism among blacks" wouldn't be a discussion we could have with any credibility, and that of course WOULD be offensive and oppressive.
Sat, 2009-03-21 09:40
#35
Agreed, Michelle. We all know that our rulers are ultimately responsible for, and benefit from, the worst evils in our society, including racism. But if we don't address it very specifically in our own ranks (in this case the working class), then we become or remain one with those rulers - to the detriment of workers of all colours and races.
Sat, 2009-03-21 09:54
#36
I don't think that's really necessary if this is an honest discussion.
Repeated, beacuse thie racism amongst working people against FN people is REAL. I hear it all the time. It is sad and sickening.
Sat, 2009-03-21 12:55
#37
It's distressing on both sides.
From the non Native working class perspective, it distresses me how ignorant and myopic my folk can be when it comes to their own interests. How they salve their own fears and injuries by inflincting some on others.
And, without going into details, I do my best to illustrate how and where the interests of First Nations people, and non Native working class people converge. I may not have the advantage of a national podium to speak from, but on the other hand, when you know the person you are talking to, you can tailor the message so it hits home.
Working class people have been and are living in anxiety and fear because of our economic turmoil. It can be a breeding ground for racism. It can also be fertile ground for building understanding, if not social and political alliances.
Sat, 2009-03-21 22:45
#38
The problem in society is that racism has gone underground and never surfaces until is is authorized in public - usually by some mob mentality.
In a way this is the worse place it can be since in pubic discourse many Canadians deny it exists and it is harder even still to point to specifics to prove it does. If it was in the open racsim can be defended through education and fact. However, since it underlies our society it tends to get entrenched in public policy, and institutionalized in our government system.
We must first establish beyond any reasonable doubt that it does exist and provide the dialog that will be necessary to expose its weaknesses. I don't believe that we can do this on a large scale given the fact that as Canadians we are in a constant state of denial about many things. Rather we must make anti-racism personal and intimate in our discussions, not by condemning people for the way they think, but for offering them another way out of the cycle of hate and resentment.
Sun, 2009-03-22 00:42
#39
RevolutionPlease
Hey Charter Rights, right on, hope you post more.
Sun, 2009-03-22 10:31
#40
"In a way this is the worse place it can be since in pubic discourse many Canadians deny it exists and it is harder even still to point to specifics to prove it does."
I wonder how much of a stamp the British system of governance has stamped itself into the psyche of Canadians? On issues of racism and civil rights, Canadians seem predisposed to willfull blindness. That's why working class whites will rant about the tax breaks Natives get, but forget that our M.P.'s M.P.P.'s, M.L.A.'s enjoy a greater tax free status. Not to mention others. But you get a shoulder shrug of "what can you do?" when you point this out.
The British/Canadian system seems to have evolved in response to revolution, in that it presents rights and equality on paper, but enforces a systemic brake on all but a priveleged few who would expect to enjoy rights and equality.
So, it allows for people to trick themselves into believing we enjoy freedom, and when we don't, it is due to some failing on our own part. And if you decry this nasty fake liberty, obviously you are some kind of malcontnt, or nut job.
We are all equal. We all have rights. You can see it there on paper.
....if not in practice.....
Sun, 2009-03-22 13:52
#41
Start by exploding the myth of "special rights", maybe?
Example: attacks on aboriginal fishers exercising their treaty rights, from BC to NB.
--
"One law for the lion and the ox is oppression" - Blake
Sun, 2009-03-22 16:10
#42
Makwa
I fail to see what this has to do with FN issues and culture, if it is about the dominant culture and what they are doing about the pervasive racism agains FN, particulalry among working class peoples, and what, if anything, is being done about it. I'm moving this to the labour forum.
Tue, 2009-03-24 23:54
#43
I wonder how much of a stamp the British system of governance has stamped itself into the psyche of Canadians? On issues of racism and civil rights, Canadians seem predisposed to willfull blindness. That's why working class whites will rant about the tax breaks Natives get, but forget that our M.P.'s M.P.P.'s, M.L.A.'s enjoy a greater tax free status. Not to mention others. But you get a shoulder shrug of "what can you do?" when you point this out.
We are all equal. We all have rights. You can see it there on paper.
....if not in practice.....
There is another side to this. Our system is not a British, French or American derivative. According to John Ralston Saul in A Fair Country our government, soceity and culture as Canadians is Metis, that is a hybrid from our roots in lower class European combined with immigrants from all over the world that mixed with an aboriginal way of thinking and governance. This produced our sense of fairness and equality -Peace, Welfare and Good Government, which are prinicples modelled by our First Peoples.
Somewhere in the mid 19th century the Victorians in canada tried to assume control and take power. And even though some of their attempts at trying to be something we are not partly succeeded, it could not outlast our roots as Metis people. Our system is unique to us and the way we see things - our world view - is vastly different than any other country in the wolrd - even the US which is far more British/ Colonial-like than Australia, or other colonies.
Those who still try to insist we are British ignore the fact that we have built a society that is not class based, nor ruled by the aristocracies of Britian. Instead our governmentis closer in structure to the Iroquois Confederacy style with checks and balances.
Tue, 2009-03-24 23:56
#44
Start by exploding the myth of "special rights", maybe?
Example: attacks on aboriginal fishers exercising their treaty rights, from BC to NB.
--
"One law for the lion and the ox is oppression" - Blake
That in itself is one of the myths that protects racism.
There are no "special rights". There are aboriginal and land rights guarantees that predate our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, our Constitution and our government. Rights are not offered or conditional. They can only be recognized.
However, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms does something else that we are not always cognizant of. It "limits" our rights and so to someone less knowledgable of what is behind the Charter it may appear that Native people have more rights" or special rights not afforded to us. That is incorrect since the aboriginal rights we recognize, simply acknowledge that they were here first, and that by our setting up of government systems and using their lands and resources around them does not make an assumption that we hold authority over them.
The limits of our rights authorized by law have traditionally come about by our irresponsibility towards each other or towards a resource. An example of this comesin the form of fishing restrictions for us simply because our greed and commodification of the fishery make it possible that we will deplete the resource. And if corporate interests deplete the resource, then they deny us all access to it.
In defining the rules around conservation, the Supreme Court has provided that natives have a pre-existing right to continue their practise of harvesting fish, and that in modern terms that means earning a reasonable living from fishing. Such conservation controls ensure that the fishery is not depleted, even if native people continue to fish with less controls than we do.