Does Marriage Matter?

However, on a purely pragmatic point, marriage confers benefits to those involved that common-law status does not automatically do, in spite of what most people think. That is a definite issue, especially for women, many of whom find that they have difficulty establishing claim to marital assets upon dissolution of the relationship. That can also be difficult to do in the event of serious illness or death. Again, these considerations are of importance to most women who usually earn less than men and/or those who are raising children.

That's not to say that wills and contracts can't be made that cover most of those bases but many don't do so or realize the legal difference between marriage and common-law relationships.

I think you are all forgetting about the toasters.  We will never have to buy a toaster again as long as we live and we had a wedding that specifically asked for no presents, was done on the front steps of the farm house, had our baby in arms, (who is now on the verge of towering over me FCS), and was about as unbourgie as you could get.  We even made the food ourselves.

We were always opposed to marriage, but came to realize that it was important not for the couple but for others to formally recognize the couple and the committment they are making.  It is just one reason I have always thought SSM is so important to be 'official'

Hell I always say that the best way to ensure a couple stays together is to get into big time debt together.  Farming is particularly useful for this approach.

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

 I think you are all forgetting about the toasters.

Hey, that's the same prize that lesbians get upon coming out.

Coincidence?

I wonder...... 

There are lots of toasters at charity sales. Not a coincidence.

I think whether marriage matters in terms of family etc depends on how common it is. In Québec a majority of (heterosexual) couples in childbearing years are NOT married now - we have the highest rate of shacking up on earth. But there is a problem in terms of assets - there is no such thing as "common-law" here, common law is British, and our Civil Code is French. A lot of women wind up with nothing due to such misconceptions.

But I couldn't imagine getting married unless there were some other accessory reason (immigration of either partner, problems with power of attorney etc). Just imagining a divorce on top of ghastly breakups!

I've always had zero desire to have children - or rear anyone else's - so that is not a factor for me.

Though of course I support equal rights to fall into the trap for LGBT people!

It seems to me that most people who marry do so to "pass" in the eye of others, or at least "for them", they say. I wonder...

As lagatta pointed out when I was writing this, Quebec has by far the highest proportion of unmarried heterosexual partners - but it's true many women pay a steep price upon separation.

All the more reason for promoting and valuing, instead of marriag,e something like a strong PACS (civil pact of solidarity), or civil unio,n such as what they have in Europe. I mean... you can buy a damn toaster for 29,95$.

Unfortunately, a Roman Catholic Church-driven government still limits Quebec women's economic rights in civil unions, and there is no strong enough effort afoot to change this.

“Sometimes I wonder if men and women really suit each other. Perhaps they should live next door and just visit now and then.” (Katharine Hepburn)

Which is what I do with my turtle dove.

This reminds me of the story of some friends.  They had a private wedding and dinner and then decided to go bar hopping afterwards, still in their wedding duds.  Every bar they went into served the couple free drinks.  I have often wondered if I should try that some time, but then I have a lot of Scottish blood in me.

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

I agree that marriages tend to be WAY overdone.  I was just trying to suggest, like ElizaQ, that is doesn't have to be.  At heart a large part or me, the romantic gushy part, wants an excuse to celebrate a couple that have found each other and actually think they want to spend the rest of their lives together.  It isn't marriage that is important in that, it is the recognition- so give me some other way to do that and I will be happy. 

 Yeah that's really what I experienced. The people around me were excited and it was fun. It really wasn't just about me but about everyone who participated because they chose too.  I actually had a problem being at the center of it. It was a weird place to be actually.  I swear that some people were more excited then I was.  I didn't plan to do anything fancy with my hair except wear part of the headpiece that my grandmother wore at her wedding but on the day of I was whisked into the bathroom by a bunch of women who insisted that it be special.  I just went with the flow. :)  My whole wedding was pretty much me going with the flow.  I was just going along for the ride.

  My biggest concern was whether there would be enough food because I really wasn't sure how many people were going to show up.  I did make some contigency plans just in case, with a couple of people set to run to the grocery store if needed.   Boy did I ever not have to worry about that.  The most stressful part was trying to find another table to put everything that showed up on and figuring out what to do with it all when the party was done.  A lot of people went home with really awesome doggy bags.  :D    I'm not even sure how everything got cleaned up either.  It just magically happened somehow. LOL

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I'm very cynical about marriage, and the entire marriage industry. Contradictorily, I'm a huge romantic and quite the sap if it comes down to it. 

I wouldn’t say I’m optimistic about marriage in general because I think a lot people marry the wrong people for the wrong reasons without having a clue if they want the same things cause they are just so frickin in love! But I like my marriage a lot and I had a great time with all the things surrounding the wedding bougie or not. Contradictorily, I’m the least romantical, sap out there, I’m actually quite cynical about all the bleedin’ romance involved in getting engaged and married and the sappy vows blech! One of the many practical reasons we got married was so people would shut up asking when we where going to get married. ;) Didn’t help, now they won’t relent about my aging ovaries and frozen womb. Pick your poison people. Marriage or babies. 

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where there's a bridal shower, stag and doe, bachelorette, engagement party, plus the wedding itself, all of which I've felt obligated to RSVP for.

Wow! Who am I kidding except for the engagement party we had all of the above. What I learned however was that I was getting some of those events no matter if I cared it or not. I didn’t care if I had a shower but my matron of honour cared. A LOT. She made me super cute little sandwiches with no crusts, it was fun and she was happy, win-win for me. The stag was a giant event which my husband enjoyed but I think was as much about the other guys getting out without their spouses (some of our friends don’t have the most evolved marriages/partnerships and stags are always a “free pass” for a night out – it also seems to make people more willing to babysit so the Moms can go out too).  

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When my better half and I discuss taking the plunge, we definitely don't want to do that financially to our friends and family.

I get where you’re coming from but again I learned that people like weddings, they like being a part of it, humans like to celebrate good news and give gifts. Problem is when you have 5 weddings in one summer (it get’s expensive and hairy then and it’s hard to say no). I didn’t want to register anywhere - I didn’t really need anything but I was told it was helpful to people out of town or traveling for another country, or who couldn’t make it to the wedding to purchase something and have it delivered. Who knew? Also, I had to telling the boys to dial the stag back as we aren’t all trust fund babies and some of the wives would like a new dress so quite spending all their money. I felt bad, my hubby wasn’t supposed to know about the details but I was hearing all the $$$ details of the night from the girlfriends/wives and it was causing a lot of problems in their respective homes so I had to be a bit of a hard ass about it and I needed him to be the one to dial it back. I wanted all our friends to have a good time not go broke over one weekend. Seriously, I drove myself to the venue and took a cab to the pub ( yes I went to our local in my dress and drank cheap pink bubbly) after the event so no I really didn’t think the guys needed a stretch hummer for the stag.

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But what really got to me is the fact that I received the invitation to “Jrose and Guest,” even though she’s known my partner for the entire seven years we’ve been together. As always, because my partner and I are not married, it seems amongst many friends he is not recognized as my partner, simply because there is no ring on my finger.

That is just crap. Maybe that’s how you kids ;) are doing things now but I’m not much older than you really and that is just friggin’ rude. Single folk get “and guest” and even then some of them I knew they would be bringing a specific mutual friend as their “date” so I added their guests name to the invite. I have friends who might never get married but they are my friends and if a “partner” has been around for awhile or they live together I friggin know their name, likely they are my friend too right and should use their name - it’s the friend thing to do and it’s just damn good manners. 

Marriage matters an awful lot to gay and lesbians who can’t get married. Marriage when the church isn’t involved and 2 people just want to be a family of their own for their own reasons is just fine. I just don’t think it’s the bedrock of our society or anything. I know too many people who marry the wrong people, at the wrong time and for the wrong reasons. To many people get the fever. That tends to happen when people let religion and morality and other weird shit influence their decisions. 

Some weird things about society and marriage though – go car shopping with an engagement ring better service. Go buy a condo get better service. Very irritating that society assumes a better level of commitment and ability to pay for things when you’re married – I have less money now! And I’m the same person I was when we just lived together. Getting married really changed nothing thank jebus, I married him cause I really liked us and a change might not have been so good – it’s just really nice to celebrate the sense of satisfaction with life and our choices with our friends and I love a good party, ti was a really, really good party.

I do think for a lot of women marriage offers protection for those women most at risk. Those who won’t know how to fight for themselves or have the resources to should a relationship end  - they could lose everything but society should find ways to correct that so people can get married for better reasons.

Sharon wrote:

I think marriage matters if it matters to the couple involved -- whether same sex or opposite sex. 

What Sharon said.

Every couple can and should work this out for themselves. If they can't agree, then it may be a sign that they aren't right for each other.

It's the outside pressure -- from friends, family and society -- that tends to warp peoples' perceptions of whether it is important or not.

Michelle wrote:

Even then, marriage isn't THAT important, LTJ.  I mean, sure, it's important and you want to bring kids into the world when you're feeling like there's a healthy relationship happening with the person you've decided to become a parent with.  But that doesn't mean you have to get married, nor does it mean you have to STAY married if it's time to move on.

I think that the staying married thing is one case where marriage shouldn't matter when a lot of the time it does.  In the case of marriage in general I agree with Sharon:

Sharon wrote:

I think marriage matters if it matters to the couple involved -- whether same sex or opposite sex.

But when it comes time that the people have grown in different directions and aren't in the place to make eachother happy clinging onto the relationship, just because they want to stay married, usually just causes harm for themselves, their partners and any children or other family that may be involved.

Well, I'm a girl who had three prior common-law husbands before tying the knot with this one at 32 years of age. I did it because I know from experience that no matter how great things are at the outset, for me, there are big problems that develop down the line -- it's a sexist institution after all, with or without the vows -- and I made a deliberate choice to work through it this time since we were going to have kids. So I guess that's about as far from romantic as you can get. I think it was the right choice for me, and it was his preference too albeit for much different reasons.

As for the wedding, we eloped, on our own, in Louisiana. I wore a jeans skirt and white t-shirt, with lace for the photos -- my mother-in-law had been saving a matching frame. The ceremony wasn't religious, I'm pretty sure it wasn't even legal and we never had it registered here afterwards but we do consider ourselves married. I still wear the band when I can find it; I like it, and it comes in very handy at work in some situations. We had a big party afterwards in a restaurant just for immediate family (friends would have also meant inviting dozens of aunts, uncles and cousins) and that was a wonderful day. Thus I managed to avoid any bridal showers and this also set the stage for adamantly refusing to have any part of any baby showers, except a big surprise party they threw at my work because they knew I would have nothing to do with it if they asked. But that was fun too; all we did was eat cake.

Contrast that with two of my sisters-in-law, one of whom paid $120,000 for her wedding and honeymoon and felt that was cheap and inadequate in comparison to the other who spent A HUNDRED AND SEVENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS for a honeymoon in Europe and a reception for several hundred people at the exclusive golf course of which her husband is a member. So that was an "important" occasion in a whole different respect. Both of these women, their husbands and other family members have undoubtedly reaped financial benefits well in excess of their outlay from the connections forged at these events.

I could use a toaster. . .

Actually, I liked the wedding in the movie Rachel Getting Married. Looked fun, relaxed, with a focus on the vows exchanged rather than the ceremony.

I think it would be fun to plan a wedding for exactly the kind of celebration you want.

Great movie, btw. Great acting.

If I remember correctly, and I suppose I could check the video, Ms.C. was "given away" by both of her parents.

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Yeah that's one that I had a problem with.  It was important to my Dad, though he wasn't insistant or anything.  I ended up compromising and changing it slightly.  Both Mom and Dad walked with me and instead of giving me away we looked at it in the light of two families joining together rather then one giving up to another and said words to that affect.  Mom and Dad were the representatives of my family. 

I knew it was important to my Dad too even though he never said as much and I knew my Mom wanted it that way too. And retrospectively thank God he was there to haul me down the “isle”. Didn’t dawn on me to get a runner for the grass so every step I took my heels sunk into the soft grass and I got stuck. Lucky for me the Pumpkins was playing very loudly so it drowned out my giggling as I told my Dad to drag me down the aisle. We didn’t have seating for our guest during the ceremony either, it was quite short so everyone got to gather round quite close to us so our families got to be right up next to us without having to be lined up all neat and tidy or stuck sitting on one side or the other of a venue. I find that whole “Bride or Groom side” of seating at more traditional weddings annoying.

Technically I’m their for both of them aren’t I? 

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But when it comes time that the people have grown in different directions and aren't in the place to make eachother happy clinging onto the relationship, just because they want to stay married, usually just causes harm for themselves, their partners and any children or other family that may be involved.

See I don’t think that’s the fault of “marriage” as much as religious/traditionalist morals about religious marriage. I think a pragmatic feminist approach to marriage means divorce is an acceptable option if things go off the rails. We talked about that kind of thing before we got married. I also have a couple friends who got pre-nups regarding potential children and what would happen in the advent of a divorce, not about financial assests. What type of schooling, splitting up custody and all that stuff.

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(we eventually got married in a backyard, prefaced with a baseball game and finished with lots of wine and beer and appetizers).

 I would have liked to have been invited to that! Did you actually play baseball or got to a game? 

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like how you put it -- "two families joining together."

I like that too. That’s what the “minister” spoke about at our wedding friends and family and the importance of that and nary a peep about God. Yes, I hired a minister – couldn’t track down anyone else to do it and do it fairly cheap. She was lovely, and cool with us being atheists.

It's interesting to see the discussion around marriage mattering in a financial sense because cohabitation doesn't carry the same laws when it comes to division of assets.

Personally, as a woman who has left both a marriage and a common-law relationship, I've been way, WAY more hurt financially by the ending marriage than the ending common-law relationship. True, much of that is custody. But I think we would have been divorced years ago (before the custody stuff came up) if we'd just had the money to pay lawyers to get it over with.

I can't see myself ever putting myself in such a financially vulnerable position again as getting married.  On the other hand, it sure is nice to see lots of "happily-ever-after" stories in this thread.  Gives me hope for humanity. :)

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On the other hand, it sure is nice to see lots of "happily-ever-after" stories in this thread.

 Ha! I worry about happy today! And maybe tomorrow! Ever after I might not find him so amusing anymore so let's not get ahead of ourselves.

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As in the Smashing Pumpkins, Scout? If so, good call!

Yep, it was "Today", I so love the begining of that song! Lyrics aren't actually so romantic though.

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but it's what comes before and after that actually matters.

I wish more people spent more time on the "before" so that the after was what they expected. Getting married doesn't fix jack shit people!

We stripped all the sexism out of our wedding as well which can be a bit challenging when getting married in the Catholic church. 

Surprisingly, the Catholic church actually discourages the father 'giving away' the bride. 

Homilies that include such phrases as 'a silent wife is a Gift from God', didn't go over too well. Instead, we scrapped all the suggested homilies and found an obscure passage free of sexism. 

We chucked out a lot of the traditional stuff surrounding the wedding.  I hate bridal showers, and I didn't have one.  The blond guy didn't want a stag, so he didn't have one.  None of the nonsense about not seeing each other on the day of - we got up together like usual, he looked after Ms B when I went to get my hair done and then we had lunch together.  I nearly wound up carrying Ms B instead of my bouquet, but she decided to stop howling once we got to the church.

I did wear a (second-hand!) white dress and we did have a church wedding, but a non-traditional ceremony and we wrote our own vows.  The reading was a Shakespearean sonnet.  My dad is dead, so I took the aisle solo -- and missed him more acutely in that first step than I could ever have imagined.  I'd have chucked a trainload of feminist cred to have had him there. 

We had a laid-back reception in my mother's back yard, which has a huge deck and a gorgeous flower garden.  We had hamburgers and saskatoon pie and a traditional Norwegian wedding cake made by my MIL and SIL.

 It was lovely.  But we've packed a whole lot more wonderful into the nearly 11 years that followed it, so it just sort of fits in with the rest.

The only reason that marriage matters these days is legal.   If you end up ship wrecked on love beach or one of you passes on, the division of property issues are a bit clearer than they'd be if you weren't married.  It's just the way it is under our existing laws...and yes they should be changed to reflect reality.

Aside from that, the only reason marriage matters is if it matters to you.

I've been through it twice...first time rather "non-tradtional"...backyard "house wedding"  and the second time more traditional...the "church thing"...although the minister was a bit lefty ;)