Bailing out the automakers

Good post, FM.

There was some solidarity involved in its creation in bringing about greater equality of condition , and while the autowaorkers like many other workers forgot themselves for a bit in buying into the capitalist system and in voting conservative, perhaps now is not the time for schadenfreude? ...about the plight of workers or our democratic instituions such as communications.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

These are the same people who try to tell the middle income earners that welfare abuse and assistance to the "undeserving" poor are the reason for their high taxation.

Welfare abuse is, a worst, a mirco issue.  The big nut is middle class entitlements.

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[b]Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!![/b]

Sven wrote:

Welfare abuse is, a worst, a mirco issue.  The big nut is middle class entitlements.

Examples of middle class entitlements?

I think it is the minority that relishes in the job losses of others, and that the voice of this minority is amplified by their dominance in the mainstream media.  I do not think it is reflective of broader Canadian opinion (but I could be totally wrong on that).

With respect to what other interventions/programs.  There are already social safety net programs in place, like EI, that will need increased funding given the increased demand that will be placed on them.  Certainly a discussion about whether EI is adequate, both to the people who actually qualify and to the large numbers of people who do not qualify (but need the support), would not be unfathomable.  Likewise, there is significant room to shape how the stimulus dollars are spent. 

Neither you nor I drafted the Canadian Business Corporations Act nor its provincial counterparts, but we do have the power of our vote, and the power of our voice.  I think that if we all disavow ourselves from the structures that are in place, and view them as unchangeable institutions created by others, then we cannot expect to institute change.  We do bare responsibility for the economic structure of our society, even if you and I disagree with that current structure.  We also bare the responsibility of attempting to change it.

You seem to be miscontruing my argument.  I am equally appalled by fat cat salaries, and corporate bail outs.  No where have a said that corporations haven't been complicit in a big take or that I disagree with your assessment of who bares the most responsibility.  My argument is only that the autoworker per se, are no more deserving of assistance as other Canadian workers, and I would suggest, are in a financially superior position to many. 

We should be calling on the government (federal and provincial) to provide social spending that will assist all workers, not just the ones that happen to be in the politically optimal ridings.

Benjamin-- My comment was not particularly addressed at you- It was in response to what I have been hearing in many places.

I would prefer not to save those companies- if we can find employment for the workers. I think we should look at a radical retool and different arrangement- perhaps nationalize them and retool them to make fuel efficient cars and buses etc or to make something else.

 As far as those losing their jobs and who deserve the most assistance it is a complicated thing-- one the one hand we need some of the higher paying jobs in the economy on the other, many people, particualrly women are losing jobs or part time hours and have almost no net at all and are living so close to the precipice that have no help. I have the big picture.

the problem is the dynamic where those with the big bucks sit back and incite and plant stories to have those with a little fight for what they have with those who have nothing.

@ Sean in Ottawa

My comments at #60 were directed at FM - I should have been more specific.

Benjamin wrote:

Doug wrote:

That's really how I feel. Try to rescue the workers and rescue their communities with what public money we have available and leave the car companies to sort themselves out. It's better than throwing money at dysfunctional organizations to sustain a status quo we already can't afford in a lot of ways.

Why should these particular workers get special treatment?  Shouldn't they get the same assistance that all the other workers get, that being EI, welfare when that runs out (if they qualify), and OAS/CPP if you're of a retirement age?

Because this is a problem that goes beyond what EI and CPP are capable of handling. There's a community dimension to this as the auto industry is geographically concentrated. That's to say an auto plant is often the main employer in a town- even more so when you consider the employment at local suppliers and services used by the plant. EI payments to unemployed workers for a year don't help create new businesses in the affected community or alternatively, help workers move to where there are jobs. CPP can't help workers that aren't very close to retirement age but who are still going to have trouble finding work because of their age (in the 50-60 range, for example). Finding new uses for land that was occupied by plants can also be problematic.

Lucas eh?

Quote:

The Lucas Electric motto: "Get home before dark."

Lucas denies having invented darkness. But they still claim "sudden, unexpected darkness."

Lucas--inventor of the first intermittent wiper.

Lucas--inventor of the self-dimming headlamp.

The three-position Lucas switch--DIM, FLICKER and OFF. The other three switch settings--SMOKE, SMOLDER and IGNITE.

The original anti-theft devices--Lucas Electric products.

"I've had a Lucas pacemaker for years and have never experienced any prob...

If Lucas made guns, wars would not start either.

Did you hear about the Lucas powered torpedo? It sank.

It's not true that Lucas, in 1947, tried to get Parliament to repeal Ohm's Law. They withdrew their efforts when they met too much resistance.

Did you hear the one about the guy that peeked into a Land Rover and asked the owner "How can you tell one switch from another at night, since they all look the same?" "He replied, it doesn't matter which one you use, nothing happens!"

Back in the '70s Lucas decided to diversify its product line and began manufacturing vacuum cleaners. It was the only product they offered which didn't suck.

Quality Assurance phoned and advised the Engineering guy that they had trouble with his design shorting out. So he made the wires longer.

Why do the English drink warm beer? Lucas makes the refrigerators.

Alexander Graham Bell invented the Telephone.
Thomas Edison invented the Light Bulb.
Joseph Lucas invented the Short Circuit.

Recommended procedure before taking on a repair of Lucas equipment: check the position of the stars, kill a chicken and walk three times sunwise around your car chanting: "Oh mighty Prince of Darkness protect your unworthy servant."

Lucas systems actually uses AC current; it just has a random frequency.

Now seriously.

People stopped buying cars when they started losing their houses and their jobs. Not the other way around. THis isn't like some automanufacturer is driving the others into insolvency while they reap rosey profits.

Auto manufacturers were doing just fine and dandy, until the crunch.

It doesn't matter what the hell you build, if people have no job, job insecurity or limited extra purchasing power, or the banks, leasing companies etc have clawed back on risk, then vehicle sales are going to go tanking.

The cuts at other companies are coming just as deep and possibly deeper, very soon.  

Maybe we forget when Korean car companies went bankrupt.  

Perhaps we forget when AMC and others had their day in the sun.

But this perpetual nonsense and bullshit about trying to blame the workers is assinine.  

I worked in a facility that made production for all automanufacturers as well as other non auto related industries.  Yes a Tier 1 2 or 3 supplier for any of the manufacturers, be it Asian or American.

There is no difference, the responsibility that fell on the shoulders of the producer were enormous and the fines towards the supplier were significant.

People are very confused between assembly and manufacturing.

Most of the manufacturing supports exist around the assembly plants. They can be union or not.  No they don't make the wages of the assemblers.

Alot of the crap in NA vehicles comes from Mexico and China and some Korean stuff is also of poor quality.

However, the Koreans like the Canadians assemble a pretty good product.

Once the Free Trade deal with Korea is completed, it is unlikely that Canadians will support our Japanese owned Canadian assembled vehicles. As the Korean product is similar to the Japanese product and will be significantly cheaper to produce in Asia.

The nonsense about the vehicles never goes away.  The more environmentally friendly vehicles are not flying off the lots.

They are of good quality, do as performed, but people are not buying them in the masses that they purchase non hybrids.  That could change in the future, but right now, sales stink, and will continue to stink until this economy somehow rights itself, and I am not as optimistic as Harper.

There is something very interesting on the horizon which could change the face of the auto industry.

China has alot of foreign investment to allow the building of vehicles in their country. Many of these vehicles will be for export and some for the domestic market. China still believes in their own Auto industry, (their vehicles are reknowned for poor quality), and knows that they will not have the emmissions technology required for export, nor are they as advanced in the design of the combustion engine and electronic controls.

(Maybe they stole their electronics from lucas)

However, not to be out performed, the Chinese are intend on turning a liability into an asset by becoming the largest manufacturer of electric cars within three years. 

China Pushes forward on Electric Cars

The question isn't necessarily about the product, although we know that GMs decision in the 90s is haunting them today, the fact is any manufacturer can pump out the Electric and Hybrids, its just how much they are going to cost that is the question.

As long as we have unregulated and unbalanced trade with Asia, any manufacturing in Ontario let alone Auto is likely to disappear forever.

Does Canada want a manufacturing base, do we want to produce vehicles?

If so, Canada needs a better plan then flushing money down a corporate toilet or pissing into a lake to see if it will rise.

Money without investment and job guarantees is foolish.

Their is no rational reason to buy an industry two or three years or life with our money, just so they can finish relocating their operations in Mexico or China or Korea.

Keep bashing the manufacturers, keep bashing the workers, but if we do not address our trade problems, and our voluntary elimination of skilled and unskilled labour in the manufacturing sector, then this nation is doomed to be a warehouse and fast food joint, with the occassional doorknocker selling mutual funds.l 

Bought a 1967 Mustang new - in 1967. A straight six of modest horsepower - a metallic light green with tan upholstery.

Didn't take long for the conspicuous consumers to turn a lovely little vehicle into something else...yes, the consumer...that's what the polls told Ford to make...right up to a couple of years back.

Ah, the values of the North American taxpayer/consumer, aided in their vacuous, gullible,  dazed state by the advertisers.

Quote:

I think it is the minority that relishes in the job losses of others, and that the voice of this minority is amplified by their dominance in the mainstream media.

Let's call the above salient point one.

Quote:

With respect to what other interventions/programs.  There are already social safety net programs in place, like EI, that will need increased funding given the increased demand that will be placed on them.  Certainly a discussion about whether EI is adequate, both to the people who actually qualify and to the large numbers of people who do not qualify (but need the support), would not be unfathomable.  Likewise, there is significant room to shape how the stimulus dollars are spent.

But those things are not on the table. You and I are not at the table to put them there. What's more, how the stimulus dollars are spent is outside of public debate. The Conservative gangsters are putting pressure on municipalities to decide on their projects in an unprecendented short period of time. For most of Canada that means ... roads! More than that, infrastructure spending is short-term spending and it is insufficient even for infrastructure needs. It will not produce long term economic benefits and there is no debate or discussion about a long term economic vision or strategy for the nation.

Quote:

Neither you nor I drafted the Canadian Business Corporations Act nor its provincial counterparts, but we do have the power of our vote, and the power of our voice.  I think that if we all disavow ourselves from the structures that are in place, and view them as unchangeable institutions created by others, then we cannot expect to institute change.  We do bare responsibility for the economic structure of our society, even if you and I disagree with that current structure.  We also bare the responsibility of attempting to change it.

Excellent. How? In formulating your answer, I refer you to salient point one, and the opening post of this thread: http://www.rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/media-reason-ndp-doesnt-ge...

Quote:

You seem to be miscontruing my argument.  I am equally appalled by fat cat salaries, and corporate bail outs.  No where have a said that corporations haven't been complicit in a big take or that I disagree with your assessment of who bares the most responsibility.  My argument is only that the autoworker per se, are no more deserving of assistance as other Canadian workers, and I would suggest, are in a financially superior position to many.

You can suggest that, but you would be wrong. Autoworkers like everyone else bought into the consumer economy. They may own McMansions and six cars in the suburbs all shopping at Wal-Mart with the obligatory "Still have a job? Keep buying foreign" bumber stickers for mobile irony, but they are also deeply in debt. That means that wage reductions or layoffs will have very serious consequences on them and their families.

More than that, the powers that be recognize, even if you don't, the symbolism of bringing the auto-workers down to size. It is their industrial wages and benefits that sets the scale for everyone else. Symbolically, the auto-workers are the ceiling which is being lowered for all of us.

Quote:

We should be calling on the government (federal and provincial) to provide social spending that will assist all workers, not just the ones that happen to be in the politically optimal ridings.

Good luck with the former and perhaps you can explain the latter.

Quote:

I do not support the government and I do not begrudge people. I am just saying that it is insane to dole out money to the autoindustry at this time.

I agree with you on that. But that is not the public debate that is taking place.

Frustrated Mess wrote:

Excellent. How? In formulating your answer, I refer you to salient point one, and the opening post of this thread: http://www.rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/media-reason-ndp-doesnt-ge...

(1) Go around the MSM, which is hemoraging seriously anyway. Community-driven sites like rabble are alternatives. The building of social movements doesn't depend on capturing the msm that is held by corporate elite.

(2) This is contentious...but I firmly believe that the federal NDP, in its current incarnation, is nothing more than a barrier to progressive change in this country; its leadership and strategy is appalling; it elects a few really good progressive MPs, but it is functionally marginalized otherwise; it may give progressives the feeling of parking their vote in party that speaks about change, but it has absolutely no chance of implementing it.

(3) And my personal preference: agitate, litigate, repeat.

Frustrated Mess wrote:

You can suggest that, but you would be wrong. Autoworkers like everyone else bought into the consumer economy. They may own McMansions and six cars in the suburbs all shopping at Wal-Mart with the obligatory "Still have a job? Keep buying foreign" bumber stickers for mobile irony, but they are also deeply in debt. That means that wage reductions or layoffs will have very serious consequences on them and their families.

More than that, the powers that be recognize, even if you don't, the symbolism of bringing the auto-workers down to size. It is their industrial wages and benefits that sets the scale for everyone else. Symbolically, the auto-workers are the ceiling which is being lowered for all of us.

If workers have that level of property then it can be liquidated - yes, I know that that is harsh - and the proceeds can be used to cover the debt that they may have chosen to accumulate through over consumption. The so-called "serious consequences" pale in comparison to those workers that are low-waged and insecure, who have no McMansions nor cars; it is these workers who face very serious consequences from the current economic situation because they live on a continual precipice.

There may be symbolism for some in "bringing the auto-workers down", but frankly I think that your argument that they set the wage for the rest of us is not supported by current industrial organization, it is the labour movement's equivalent to capitalism's "a rising tide lifts all boats" - simply not true (and I would be pleasantly surprised by a peer-reviewed article to the contrary).

"(1) Go around the MSM, which is hemoraging seriously anyway. Community-driven sites like rabble are alternatives. The building of social movements doesn't depend on capturing the msm that is held by corporate elite."

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Social movements of a half dozen people talking to themselves are about as meaningful as the bowel variety.

Benjamin wrote:

I challenge you to produce empirical evidence to the contrary.

So as I thought about this request, and did some preliminary searching on EconLit, I realized how difficult it would be to measure this impact.  There is clear evidence of a wage differential between union and non-union workers, which tends to disipate as you get to more skilled employment.  However, this is not the same thing as saying that unionization increases average total compensation.  I suppose one could look at wage rigidity or changes to minimum wage standards based on overall rates of unionization in the economy, but I couldn't find anything to that affect.  If anyone is aware of such research, I would be very happy to read it, but otherwise FM, I retract my "challenge" - ;).

"Recommended procedure before taking on a repair of Lucas equipment: check the position of the stars, kill a chicken and walk three times sunwise around your car chanting: "Oh mighty Prince of Darkness protect your unworthy servant."

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"I do not owe any auto worker or auto plant manager a single thing. I do not want them to owe me either."

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Don't know whether you'd call that wishful thinking or just other-worldly.

I don't agree with bailing out the execs, investors and 'boards' for their lousy performance either, but I don't like to see the workers suffer for the lack of vision of the powers that be.

That's why I'd rather see money used to support worker-controlled offshoot companies with products that the public actually wants.

(eg, solar/wind based electric cars)

But perhaps that's naive.

Sums it up nicely.

And as people can imagine, same thing the other side of the border.

And I don't mean Detroit- whose problems are much older and deeper than the demise of the auto industry in North America. I'm talking the rest of Michigan that still looks great.

Interesting though that with less to work with fiscally, state of Michigan is doing a bang up job of getting the up and coming battery R&D and production business to locate in Michigan [from a position of starting WAY behind the Koreans, let alone the Japanese].

That certainly won't fill all the holes- or any for a while. But its an example of government running with the future. And where is Ontario and Canada on this or any other 'next wave' of the transportation industry: zip.

13.7 unemployment is terrible! You have my sincere sympathy, wish I had more to give. This is really intolerable.