Here you go. Continued from here.
Edited to add: I got the power of links! Wahoo!
School Shopping in Ontario: The Sequel to the Sequel
Thu, 2009-04-09 20:36
#1
Maysie
School Shopping in Ontario: The Sequel to the Sequel
Thu, 2009-04-09 20:56
#2
Stephen, here are a few of my problems with the data:
The EQAO on which all this is based is neither valid nor reliable and yet it has been used to introduce competition between schools. Widespread publication of EQAO scores alone in local newspapers has already resulted in white and/or middle class flight dividing neighbourhoods, families and whole communities. The demographic data being used, Census data based on postal codes, is old (2001) and faulty. The white flight has largely happened in the last decade courtesy of the Harrisites. TDSB's recent study has shown the CD Howe and Fraser Institute results are largely irrelevant in determining which schools in their board need greater resources, (and your right socioeconomics are not the sole determinant of high EQAO scores). I am guessing the TDSB results could be applied province wide. So why is the Ministry of Education trying to sell parents CD Howe and Fraser Institute data??
Thu, 2009-04-09 21:08
#3
Stephen, you are clearly pro competition. I don’t see any room for your kind of competition in a publicly funded school system. Personally, I am all for school choice but true choice is a whole lot different from competition based on discrimination. Here’s the one, accountable public school system I envision:
1) No more publicly funded schools that can discriminate on the basis of religion. By all means accommodate religious beliefs within the schools (hijab, wearing crucifixes, kosher/ halal/ vegetarian options in the cafeteria), teach world RE and allow before and after school religious instruction on site.
2) No more teaching to an invalid and unreliable test, taking valuable time away from real learning.
3) Families of elementary schools that serve a geographic area: Each school to have a focus: eg. Project-based learning, French immersion, Integrated art & music, heritage programs
4) Special needs integration and accommodations in all elementary schools (both LD & gifted)
5) Families of high schools that serve a geographic area; again each school to have a focus that would be of benefit to any child regardless of ability:
6) I am all for giving teachers bonus pay for merit/excellence. Not sure how this would be measured or how it would go over with the union but I think it’s well worth exploring.
This introduces greater competition between schools but provides real choices to all parents not just those of a particular faith group or those having the money to send their children to art/music/science camp from the age of five.
Thu, 2009-04-09 21:15
#4
While some of that would be nice it doesn't work in a rural setting - mostly a busy issue.
Thu, 2009-04-09 21:24
#5
I disagree BA. Project based learning works everywhere. Parents in rural areas are putting their children on buses to travel long distances to Catholic schools or for French Immersion. If we stopped funding schools that discriminate on the basis of religion, then even rural children could have more choice.
I live in a small town (pop. 5,000) One of our elementary schools is exploring a new focus right now...trying to compete with the rural school within our family of schools which offers french immersion and with the Catholic school which is only a few blocks away.
Thu, 2009-04-09 21:28
#6
Clearly, the standardised tests are not enough to evaluate individual students. But at some point, the law of large numbers kicks in: it's hard to claim that when the test was written, *everyone* at a given school just happened to have a bad day. And there are ways for controlling for some of these effects; in the studies I've seen, the relevant variable was the improvement (or lack therof) between the grade 3 and the grade 6 test scores for an individual student.
It's fair enough to note the problems with the data; they don't tell the whole story. But they do tell some of the story, and can still be useful.
Thu, 2009-04-09 21:38
#7
The reality for rural residents is that there is only one bus available. One. Seperate schools make no difference as in many areas the boards are sharing already. Get rid of the seperate schools and all kinds of schools will be closed in rural areas as the resources are rationalized. It might be the community Seperate school, or it might be the Public school my children attend. No one can predict how that would shake out.
So the choice is the local school or not. Creating different programs in different schools is great for urban areas, but would not ever work in rural areas. How many buses would you plan on coming to my laneway? My three kids all have different interests. I could foresee all three of them wanting to go to different highschools that means buses in at least three different directions. Now include my neighbours three children- one of them with some special needs and that could be six buses, or a very complex busing system. Personally I would rather see those resources placed into the school my children attend now.
Thu, 2009-04-09 21:41
#8
Cueball
Others here have claimed that pretty much *all* of the variation in school quality can be ascribed to socio-economic factors; my reading of the evidence is that some of it is.
Your "reading" seems to go forward without the benefit of an analysis of the experts in the field. For someone who takes a lot of pride in the "expertise" of the researchers in his own field, it is interesting that you are suggesting that your lay-opinion on education should form the basis of an "expert" exonomic analysis of the education system and the economy. You can use statistic willy-nilly as you like, but the education system is not and will never be "the market".
Thu, 2009-04-09 21:41
#9
Hey Maysie
Completely off topic update.
Just finished my last check of the night of the barn and cattle. Came across another cow calving. That's three today. That bull must have been some tired that day. And I expect awfully pleased with himself!
Thu, 2009-04-09 21:52
#10
Your "reading" seems to go forward without the benefit of an analysis of the experts in the field. For someone who takes a lot of pride in the "expertise" of the researchers in his own field, it is interesting that you are suggesting that your lay-opinion on education should form the basis of an "expert" exonomic analysis of the education system and the economy. You can use statistic willy-nilly as you like, but the education system is not and will never be "the market".
That study I cited earlier found that 16% of the variation in test scores in Ontario could be explained by observable socio-economic factors. They didn't seem to be surprised by that low number, so I'm guessing it's not unusual.
Thu, 2009-04-09 21:58
#11
Cueball
You are "guessing" that. Maybe they are not suprised because there is nearly 50 years of statistics that indicate this, and a quantity of research that explains why it is based on first hand reporting of teachers and others close to the field.
This is news to you? Almost everything I have read on education and the economy indicates that there is a relationship.
Thu, 2009-04-09 22:04
#12
I'm not at all surprised that there was a relationship; what seems surprising to me is that it wasn't stronger. 16% isn't very much.
Thu, 2009-04-09 22:05
#13
The reality for rural residents is that there is only one bus available. One. Seperate schools make no difference as in many areas the boards are sharing already. Get rid of the seperate schools and all kinds of schools will be closed in rural areas as the resources are rationalized. It might be the community Seperate school, or it might be the Public school my children attend. No one can predict how that would shake out.
Ah, yes, I live in one of the last areas where the Catholic board has refused to cooperate on busing.
Face it, BA. Schools are going to close anyway and the likelihood is high that it will be the public school that closes first. My sister lives in a village of about 500. This village has two schools: an English public serving 250 students and a French Catholic serving 26 (yes twenty-six). Guess which school is slated for closure?? The French parents don't understand why their school is still open and many have chosen to send their children to bigger French schools nearby with more services/programming available (Catholic or secular makes no difference to all the Franco-Ontarians I've met with so far)
My small town should only have one elementary school rather than one half empty public school (250 students) and a full to overflowing Engllish Catholic school (500 students) that buses children Catholic & non in from rural towns thus compromising rural schools. So the Catholic school has enough of a student base to provide special programs like art and dance and drama and a hockey team... Parents who go there like to call it the "free private school".
Some rural towns will lose their schools regardless. If we go to one school system, atleast we will have schools large enough to provide more programming and services within the remaining schools.
Thu, 2009-04-09 22:10
#14
Cueball
I'm not at all surprised that there was a relationship; what seems surprising to me is that it wasn't stronger. 16% isn't very much.
Perhaps that indicates that education isn't really that effective at producing learned individuals. For example, I have a grade 10 education but I feel quite at home in an environoment like this one where my guess is that most have BA's or more.
Fri, 2009-04-10 05:07
#15
Rexdale_Punjabi
I'm not at all surprised that there was a relationship; what seems surprising to me is that it wasn't stronger. 16% isn't very much.
Perhaps that indicates that education isn't really that effective at producing learned individuals. For example, I have a grade 10 education but I feel quite at home in an environoment like this one where my guess is that most have BA's or more.
exactly and 16% aint a lil dif. Dif between A and lets say B-. Were u expecting like 30-40%? So all poor kids are stupid and rich are smart? And why do you stress that non-white, non-rich ppl find schools where non-white non-rich ppl do well and go them. U really do like segregation dont u
Fri, 2009-04-10 09:23
#16
Apparently poaching of students is happening at elementary and high school levels right across the province. This editorial describes what's happening in my town to a T.
Hurray for the Welland Tribune! Somebody who has the balls to call us Catholics on it!!
http://www.wellandtribune.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1517827
What I want to ask Brett Kelly is whether he's seeing that it is mostly middle class students that are being poached just like we're seeing here in eastern Ontario. Actually, I don't have to ask ‘cause I already know the answer.