Eliezer, Weinstein was an apologist for the Caves of the Patriarch massacre. Do you deny that he's an apologist for terrorism?
What happened to the CJC?
Wed, 2009-04-08 17:21
#102
Thu, 2009-04-09 00:30
#103
the laws the law............LOL
I had to scroll after the first bunch.....brain freeze and disgust !!!
and as I choke back the vomit....over hilarious hypocrisy ....LOL
I am reminded of the many.... many.....many travesties caused by broken law with Israel and the UN
....over two states ....returned lands...how about death by wars
If you say its peace you are after
the chosen people......LOL
Sorry..... but I agree Galloway is a hero
Farber and some here are delusional and deserving the same kind of karma one would expect for their blatant pain inflicting stupidity
I will have to quit reading this thread as the blatant cancer of humanity is just so very obvious
and any that don't understand that Harper is yes in bed with farber .....should have suspected as much...
just even when farber was used to remove the green party cannabis activist last sept 4 th .....
Yes ....that was gaining all the closet smoking conservatives voters to the green party....
it was the only "other party" policy listed on the conservative site....the greens call to re-legalize cannabis
Farber ?
Well he deserves to be sued if it will happen
Just for betraying the spirit of the group he supposedly represents!
Fri, 2009-04-10 22:33
#104
The poor Palestinian people and especially those living under horrible conditions in Gaza need all the help and understanding that we can give them.
Unfortunately, most people tend to look to Israel when they ask why these people are in such a teribble state. The real truth is that that these poor people have been totally betrayed by their own leadership. In 1948 they were told to leave their homes so that the invading Arab armies could "throw the Jews into the sea". Then they could come back and reclaim not only their homes but the vacated Jewish lands as well.
Why didn't they accept the UN resolution which partitioned the land into Israel and Palestine. They could have had their own country then, but they prefered to kill the Jews rather than live side by side in peace.
After loosing the war, those same leaders that told them to leave their homes kept them in refugee camps. They were marginalized from society.
Then came the great Yasser Arafat and his Fatah movement. Again totally focused on killing Jews. He and his organization were a horribly corrupt dictatorship that deprived the people of freedom and hundreds of millions of dollars of aid that they pocketed. Every time Arafat had a choice between peace and war he chose war. The Palestinians could have had a country, but he cheated them out of it.
And now the great "democratically elected" Hamas leadership. It astounds me why everyone refers to Hamas as the democratically elected government of the people. They were elected and immediately stage a violent military coup, killing their parliamentary oppontents, cynically eliminating the parliament to which they were elected and becoming a new military dictatorship. They were elected to help create a democratic government that would focus on improving life for their people, not to stage a military coup and become dictators. Why not focus on looking after your people? Because it is more important for them to kill Jews.
Don't blame Israel for the blockade. Eygpt has also maintained a closed border policy. If Hamas were interested in economic reasons to cross the border, and not in smuggling in rockets and other weapons there would be no blockade.
Israel left Gaza. Why continue to shoot rockets? Why not focus on improving conditions? Because again the leadership is much more concerned with killing Jews than giving their people a better life.
When Hamas refers to the occupation, they aren't just refering to the west bank, they mean, Tel Aviv, Haifa etc. They are not interested in living side by side in peace. They still just want to throw the Jews into the sea.
The people of Palestine and of Gaza deserve what all people deserve; to live in freedom, with diginity and peace. They will never have it until they find leaders who focus on giving them that. Unfortunately their leaders are far more focused on killing Jews.
At some point in time the people of Gaza, need tio take responsibility for the situation that they find themsleves in, and need to look to their own leadership and ask why.
Until they get honest leadership they will not be able to improve their situation. Blaming Israel foe everything is simpler than taking responsibility for their own leadership's activity. It is time for them to grow up. For their sake.
My point is that if anyone truely supports the people of Palestine, then they should work actively to see that they get real democratically elected government.
To blindly support Hamas, as Galloway dose is to do a grave disservice to the people of Gaza.
Bernie Farber, George Gallaway, and the CJC are truely irrelevant to the central issue of how best to help these people.
There are always many half truthes thrown about by both sides whenever anyone debates the issue of Mideast peace. It is obvious that there is more than enough blame to be shared by both sides. But clearly even if Israel wanted to make peace, who would it deal with? The Palestinians are divided and at each other's throats.
Why are there no demonstartions, no out crys for the Palestinians to get honest democratic leadership? That would be true support for these people who have been so completely betrayed by their own people.
Fri, 2009-04-10 22:42
#105
Sickening, lying, and racist.
Fri, 2009-04-10 23:06
#106
If that is the most intelligent response that you can muster, then your opinions have no value.
Why this response?
I want for the Palestinians what all people should have; a government of the people, by the people and for the people.
What is wrong with that?
Why do you not show passion in favour of such a cause?
Until they have honest leadership they are doomed !
Fri, 2009-04-10 23:11
#107
Keep your wishes far away from the Palestinian people. They will look after themselves, once your bosom democratic friends stop murdering them, occupying their lands, and treating them like... well, the way you treat them in your posts - an inferior race which just thirsts for Jewish blood.
Fri, 2009-04-10 23:23
#108
Sadly your attempt to attack me is exactly what dooms the Palestinians to their plight.
Blind out rage instead of an understanding of where the peace process must begin.
The Palestinians are not, and clearly can not, look after themselves.
They had a chance when they held an election. But unfortunately the party that was elected, over threw the Parliament by violence, and chose not to govern by rule of law, but rather by rule of force.
Why would anyone support such a military dictatorship?
It is exactly this kind of passion that deprives you of any ability to be of real service to those people.
Fri, 2009-04-10 23:25
#109
I'd give Mr. Truth about another day or so. Maybe less.
Fri, 2009-04-10 23:28
#110
I don't understand.
Is that a threat?
Fri, 2009-04-10 23:38
#111
No. Just a prediction about how long you're likely to last here on babble if you keep posting stuff like that. Especially if you keep pasting the same rant(which is in violation of babble policy in several ways, IIRC) in thread after thread word for word.
Btw, have just forwarded your screed to the mods.
Fri, 2009-04-10 23:45
#112
In that case, I apologise !!
I did not mean to violate any policies.
I didn't know that I was doing so.
But I was called a racist.
I expected to get responses based on different opinions or points of view, not to be personally attacked.
And all of this is still beside my main point which is that the Palestinian people have for decades been betrayed by their own leadership, and that only they can get themselves out of this mess.
So far no one has said that this is not true, they have only attacked me on a personal level.
Fri, 2009-04-10 23:46
#113
Cueball
Unfortunately, most people tend to look to Israel when they ask why these people are in such a teribble state. The real truth is that that these poor people have been totally betrayed by their own leadership. In 1948 they were told to leave their homes so that the invading Arab armies could "throw the Jews into the sea". Then they could come back and reclaim not only their homes but the vacated Jewish lands as well.
Yes probably they should have stood and fought. Relying on the so called Arab armies to support them was a mistake, especially since some, such as the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan was was no more than a British puppet. Those that stayed, even those who did not fight were masseacred at places like Sabra and Shatilla, soon after the Israeli attack upon the Arab civilian villagers began. The truth is that no Arab armies even really tried to penetrate the designated Israeli part of the partition.
The lie is that there was some co-ordinated effort to erradicate Israel. All you have to do is look at the military history, and you can see that there was no Arab invasion. All, but one conventional battle, took place outside of the zone designated for Israel by the UN. There was no Arab invasion.
In fact the only source for the famous quote, "throw the Jews into the sea" originates with Ben Gurion, who said that is what the Arabs were intending. He would like to make it out that there was some kind of real struggle, against a real army, as opposed to ad hoc, underarmed Arab villagers organized into militias fighting a well armed and prepared force of Zionists, who showed no compunction in making examples of resistant Arabs.
Fri, 2009-04-10 23:48
#114
Cueball
That is just deflection. The were attacked by the Zionists, the fact that the Arab governments did not have the political will to follow through on their promised of support is irrelevant to the individual rights pertaining to property stolen by force by the Zionists.
Fri, 2009-04-10 23:52
#115
Unfortunately, most people tend to look to Israel when they ask why these people are in such a teribble state. The real truth is that that these poor people have been totally betrayed by their own leadership. In 1948 they were told to leave their homes so that the invading Arab armies could "throw the Jews into the sea". Then they could come back and reclaim not only their homes but the vacated Jewish lands as well.Yes probably they should have stood and fought. Relying on the so called Arab armies to support them was a mistake, especially since some, such as the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan was was no more than a British puppet. Those that stayed, even those who did not fight were masseacred at places like Sabra and Shatilla, soon after the Israeli attack upon the Arab civilian villagers began. The truth is that no Arab armies even really tried to penetrate the designated Israeli part of the partition.
The lie is that there was some co-ordinated effort to erradicate Israel. All you have to do is look at the military history, and you can see that there was no Arab invasion. All, but one conventional battle, took place outside of the zone designated for Israel by the UN. There was no Arab invasion.
In fact the only source for the famous quote, "throw the Jews into the sea" originates with Ben Gurion, who said that is what the Arabs were intending. He would like to make it out that there was some kind of real struggle, against a real army, as opposed to ad hoc, underarmed Arab villagers organized into militias fighting a well armed and prepared force of Zionists, who showed no compunction in making examples of resistant Arabs.
There may some truth in what you say. There may be allot of truth in what you say. Such "truths" are always debatable.
But what of my central point, that until the Palestinians get proper leadership they will continue to be doomed ?
Why is no one screaming out for honest government for the Palestinians ?
Fri, 2009-04-10 23:54
#116
But I was called a racist.
I don't think so. I'm sure you're a nice and generous person. Your posts, however, are filled to the brim with racist characterizations of the Palestinian people.
I expected to get responses based on different opinions or points of view, not to be personally attacked.
Let me clear that up right now. I don't even know you (nor do I care to). I for one would never personally attack you. Just straighten out your mouth and your typing finger, and that will all change.
So far no one has said that this is not true, they have only attacked me on a personal level.
You seem very sensitive. Three times in one post, you have demonstrated your hurt feelings over something which never happened. I am starting to feel sorry for you. Can I buy you a coffee sometime?
Fri, 2009-04-10 23:56
#117
Cueball
All you have to do is look at this map, produced by the Israeli government, and you can see there was no invasion of the UN zone given to Israel. The movement of the Arab armies puts them at the border, in a defensive position preventing further penentration of the Arab zone. Even the few threatening red arrows that go over the border are exagerated, because in fact the Syrians did not cross over the Jordanian River in the north.
In the south, the Egyptian army crossed part of the zone for Israel, but they crossed it, and then set up a defensive perimeter around Hebron.
There was no war in 1948. What there was was an "ethnic cleansing".
Fri, 2009-04-10 23:58
#118
But what of my central point, that until the Palestinians get proper leadership they will continue to be doomed ?
Why is no one screaming out for honest government for the Palestinians ?
OH, I dunno...because it's the Israelis who have all the power in this situation, maybe?
And because it's the arrogance of Israeli policies in the West Bank and Gaza that gave Hamas its big break in show business?
Just a thought.
Sat, 2009-04-11 00:00
#119
That is just deflection. The were attacked by the Zionists, the fact that the Arab governments did not have the political will to follow through on their promised of support is irrelevant to the individual rights pertaining to property stolen by force by the Zionists.
It is not a deflection it is the most essential issue. Even if your point of view is accepted, (which I do not) who is there to negotiate on behalf of the Palestinians to try and right this wrong?
Do you feel that the only way to right this wrong, is through military force?
Why will you not address the central issue of proper leadership for these people who have been oppressed for so long by their own leadership.
It is too simplistic, and too convenient to blame Israel for it all.
Sat, 2009-04-11 00:07
#120
To Unionist, your comments continue to be personal and irrelevant to the issue.
To Cueball, your map only serves to demonstarte poor military tactics on the part of the Arab armies, not that they didn't try to invade; of course they did.
That is Israel has power is exactly my point !
The Palestinians have never had power over their own leadership because they have always been led by dictatorships. The Palestinians can never hope to take control of their lives until they have honest leadership. This has nothing to do with Israel's power.
Your comment is a deflection.
Sat, 2009-04-11 00:08
#121
Cueball
Its not a matter of negotiation. If you want to negotiate. Hire a lawyer. However Palestinian refugees have no standing before Israeli courts. One does not suddenly lose ones essential rights, just because some guy the British installed as King in Amman, says he is representing you. Nor does his actions undermine your fundamental rights. No Palestinians had anything to do with installing Hussein in Jordan.
This is simple property theft. The responsibility lies with the thief. If the courts or the police fail to stop a thief from stealing, it does not mean that the thief becomes the rightful property owner, it means the police and the courts are not doing their job. People have a right to defend their property from thieves.
Sat, 2009-04-11 00:12
#122
Cueball, the answer to the Mideast problem must be through a diplomatically negotiated solution.
Again there is an attempt to avoid reality.
Sat, 2009-04-11 00:14
#123
Cueball
own leadership because they have always been led by dictatorships. The Palestinians can never hope to take control of their lives until they have honest leadership. This has nothing to do with Israel's power.
Your comment is a deflection.
No they did not have any leadership. The Palestinian leadership was for the most part in British jails.
Sat, 2009-04-11 00:18
#124
But that has not been the case for many years. And many Jews were also in British jails.
So what?
What has that to do with reality on the ground now?
Fatah, and Hamas and the various Arab leaders from 1948 to now, have always used the Palestinians as pawns to progress their own varied interests, not to support the Palestinain people, and improve their daily lives.
Sat, 2009-04-11 00:19
#125
Cueball
No. You don't uderstand that map. For one thing the map is a lie, produced by the Israeli government. For example, is shows that the Syrian armies crosssed the Jordan. They never did. What it shows is that the Israeli government map on the 1948 war is indeed a lie. Anyone who has done a detailed study of the war, which I have, can show that there was never any concerted attempt to cross into the Israeli zones. And further, that the Arabs never raised any armies to do so. In fact they did not mobilize at all, and instead moved their armies in a defensive perimeter around the Israeli area. It is Israel that did all the attacking.
Go read your history, and look at the facts.
The map is propaganda. With big menacing red lines thrusting at Israel. Where are the menacing blue ines? They aren't there. Even then, it shows that the Arabs never actually attacked Israel.
And what is at the tip of this big menacing line plunging at Jerusalem, like a dagger? Why it is the Jordanian legion moving into Jerusalem to remove Israeli militias that have occupied Arab east Jerusalem, after the british left. Some attack!
Sat, 2009-04-11 00:26
#126
Cueball
Sorry, your entire historical perspective is clearly missing essential information about the ethnic cleansing of 1948. You only know Zionist history. There is not point in even discussing the present situation, in the face of such historical ignorance, since the history is the basis of the reality now. You are just deflecting.
You started out with a discussion of the 48 "war". Now I have engaged you on it, and you want to change the subject. No dice.
Why shouldn't the Jordanian Legion march into Jerusalem, after the Zionist militias have siezed Arab East Jerusalem, outside of the UN zone alloted for Israel? It was the only responsible thing to do really, since the British ended their responsibility to defend the Arab population there. Especially when it was clear that these militias were massacring Arab villagers in other areas.
Sat, 2009-04-11 00:33
#127
No you are wrong.
Yes, I started out by discussing the 48 war, but I did not end there, I took my comments up to the present.
And again, debating history may be a nice intellectual exercise, but it will not bring peace.
Only a diplomatically negotiated solution will do that.
Why not focus on the present, and trying to develop a better future rather than looking at maps of 1948, or trying to determine who the British treated more poorly.
Are you are willing to let slide for the people of Gaza the kind of government that you would never wish for yourself, just in the interests of trying to prove some point of history?
Sat, 2009-04-11 00:37
#128
Cueball
Summary of your logic: Someone who steals something aquires the right of ownership if the victim defends themself or doesn't ask for it back nicely.
Sat, 2009-04-11 00:42
#129
remind
No actually truth, he is not wrong, you are, and are very apparently just trying to deflect the blame away from Israel and unto the victims. No truth in your words at all. And this thread is too long
Sat, 2009-04-11 00:56
#130
Sadly everyone has refused to hold Palestinian leadership up to the same standards that you would demand of your own governments.
I hope that one day, a leader will come forward for the Palestinian people.
Hi Remind, you are right; this thread is too long.
It is late, good night all.
Sat, 2009-04-11 01:26
#131
Yes, I started out by discussing the 48 war, but I did not end there, I took my comments up to the present.
What a strange name you have!
The real truth is that that these poor people have been totally betrayed by their own leadership. In 1948 they were told to leave their homes so that the invading Arab armies could "throw the Jews into the sea".
This type of "real truth" is what Colonel Oliver North would call "a different version of the facts" in his Iran-Contra hearings testimony. It's also classic Zionist propaganda. You seem to believe it, though.[/quote]
Sat, 2009-04-11 01:57
#132
Amazing, everyone is so entrapped by the need to find an all powerful villian that will absolve the world of responsability.
Hamas did stage a coup, and did kill members of the opposition parties in their own parliament.
This is fact.
They did not do it because it was in the best interests of the people that elected them.
They acted as all dictatorial parties act, in their own interests.
They knew that constantly shooting rockets at Israel would bring down a response.
They did it on purpose. They used the death of their own people for propoganda.
They knew that their rockets had no strategic military value, but that they were only weapons of terror.
That is why the Canadian and most European nations see them as terrorists.
There is enough blame to go around, but everyone also bears their share of responsibility.
If you really want to support the Palestinians, argue on behalf of them finally acquiring honest leadership.
Why is everyone so afraid of acknowledging this ?
Because if you acknowledge responsibility, you loose the ability to blame everyone else for what is wrong with you.
It is called growing up.
Sat, 2009-04-11 03:09
#133
Amazing, everyone is so entrapped by the need to find an all powerful villian that will absolve the world of responsability.
...hence your blaming Hamas for the plight of the Palestinians.
You might be interested to discover that the most popular candidate for President among these childish Palestinians is not a member of Hamas.
There's a little snag in his chances of being elected, however.
Sat, 2009-04-11 05:31
#134
Cueball
Hamas did stage a coup, and did kill members of the opposition parties in their own parliament.This is fact.
Actually that is not a fact. Hamas won the election. Why would they need to stage a coup? They couped their own government? I would be thinking that such a strange conundrum would present to you the possibility that you are missing some pieces of the puzzle.
Sat, 2009-04-11 06:09
#135
Maysie
Ack, long thread.
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