Woo hoo! More developments, expected, to be sure, but noteworthy nonetheless...
Georgians rally against president
and the previous thread ... is over HERE!
Georgia, South Ossetia, Russia - Part 13
Thu, 2009-04-09 11:50
#1
N.Beltov
Georgia, South Ossetia, Russia - Part 13
Thu, 2009-04-09 20:05
#2
N.Beltov
Al Jazeera: Tens of thousands of protesters have taken to the streets in Tbilisi, Georgia's capital, calling for the resignation of their country's president.Opposition leaders, who expect 100,000 people to take part in the action, say they will carry on protesting until Mikheil Saakashvili, the president, resigns.
At least 50,000 demonstrators gathered outside parliament on Thursday afternoon, waving opposition flags and chanting "resign".
"We have no other way out but to stand here until the end, until the Judas of Georgian politics resigns," Levan Gachechiladze, opposition leader and former presidential candidate, told the crowd.
Ouch. Why can't Canadian politicians come up with equally brilliant insults? The brother of the leading opposition candidate for President in 2008 remarked that, "For every 10 words he (Saakashvili) utters, 11 are lies."
Edited to add:
Mass Rally in Tbilisi against the Saakashvili regime
Can Saakashvili any longer rule Georgia?
Saakashvili can count on US imperialism (and American taxpayers) to pay the salaries of the Georgian military and police, but what other support does he have? As Peter Lavalle points out in the 2nd report above (from Russia Today), Saakashvili faces a wide array of political forces, which have reached a critical mass, much larger, by a factor of 10, than the anti-Russian protests back in the time of the tragic events of 1989 which led to a change of government.
A further interview with CANADIAN Fred Weir, of the Christian Science Monitor, in which Weir outlines what might be expected over the next few days can also be heard ... over HERE.
If the opposition can keep up their presence on the street for a few days then I think it will be all over for the butcher of Tbilisi.
I wonder how long it will take for "Western" media to report this story? Will the horse already be out of the barn? For example, the CBC, I see, covered a 40,000 person protest in Bangkok as the 19th story in the international news section of their website. Nothing on the 120,000 in Tbilisi, however. ETA: 5 pm Pacific 9 April & CBC = 0. The BBC has something, albeit pro-Saak., about Georgians protesting all night long, on the site.
Fri, 2009-04-10 23:16
#3
N.Beltov
Saakashvili hasn't resigned ... and the opposition has moved to a mass civil disobedience campaign.
Fri, 2009-04-10 23:34
#4
I've been following this sporadically. It strikes me as rather pleasingly ironic: he came in through a "colour revolution" and now those techniques are being turned against him.
Fri, 2009-04-10 23:57
#5
N.Beltov
A billion dollars a year in military aid, compliments of Uncle Dubya/Obama and the American taxpayer, has helped Saakashvili of late. As far as I know that military aid is continuing and plans are being carried out to restore all the losses from the attack on South Ossetia.
Sat, 2009-04-11 00:10
#6
When is he up for re-election. The way to get rid of him is to have a majority of people vote for an opposition candidate at the next scheduled general election. I don't think government shoudl change based on who has a bigger mob running amok in the street.
Sat, 2009-04-11 01:14
#7
N.Beltov
Sure, and once von Hindenburg made Adolf Hitler Chancellor in 1933, then Germans - including German Jews - should have waited "for the next scheduled election" rather than try to oust the meglomaniac. What excellent, sensible advice Stockholm![/end sarcasm]
Of course, there would never be any revolutions, ever, if things never depended on "who has a bigger mob running amok in the street". Which is probably just fine for reactionaries in any historical period, in the past, now, or in some misty futures.
Saakashvili, AFAIK, will be jettisoned by Western interests at the most convenient moment. But Georgians will probably decide things before that moment arrives. And it will be an expression of their democratic will. Let reactionaries and tyrants tremble.
Sat, 2009-04-11 10:23
#8
"Of course, there would never be any revolutions, ever, if things never depended on "who has a bigger mob running amok in the street"."
I for one could do without bloody violent revolutions that invariably kill vast numbers of people - the French revolution, the Russian revolution, the Chinese revolution etc...what's wrong with peacefully changing leaders through constitutional means without any bloodshed?
I know that some crazed Trotskyists think that it isn't even worth taking power unless you do it through violent revolution. I beg to differ. Unless you can take power peacefully, then power is not worth having. Georgia has a constitution and they have elections. In the last election, the vast majority of people voted for Shakashvili. That's their problem.
These mobs in the streets are no different from people banging pots and pans in Santiago in 1973 because they wanted Allende to be overthrown. Be patient and wait for the next election.
Sat, 2009-04-11 10:48
#9
Cueball
Ok. Right. So public protests and gatherings of people are violent revolutionary acts now, are they? What's not peaceful about this "mob." Anything more that sneaking into a polling booth every 4 or 5 years is unlicensed banditry I suppose.
By your standards, Saakashvili shouldn't even be the president, since his presidency was guaranteed by the "mob".
But of course you only ever find excuses for defending the right. What more do I expect?
Sat, 2009-04-11 11:11
#10
remind
By your standards, Saakashvili shouldn't even be the president, since his presidency was guaranteed by the "mob".I suspect that stock will ignore this thread now you have pointed out the fallacy in his musings.But of course you only ever find excuses for defending the right. What more do I expect?
However, it greatly disquiets me that there is a movement afoot, to frame those who come out en masse to protest the actions of their governments, as being "mobs", aka terrorists. What a perfect way to shut down dissidents against the autrocities, eh? Your point about the Nazis should have been well taken, it is even more disquieting that it wasn't.
Sat, 2009-04-11 11:12
#11
These mobs in the streets are no different from people banging pots and pans in Santiago in 1973 because they wanted Allende to be overthrown. Be patient and wait for the next election.
So which Soviet billionaire funded Allende's election campaign, if we are to believe there was similar political interference in Chile?
And I dont think Allende's tactics resembled that of Tony Montana after being democratically elected as has been the case in Georgia with Saakashvili's former political allies now his enemies, unsolved murders of his political opposition etc
Sat, 2009-04-11 20:08
#12
N.Beltov
Unless you can take power peacefully, then power is not worth having.
Not worth having for whom? The future victims of Saakashvili's further bombing campaigns? This is beyond your usual foolishness Stockholm. You're really making a fetish of elections and you've got me thinking. Marxists used to mock views like this view of yours in the old days as "Parliamentary cretinism". I think that was Lenin's term, but in any case the point is that such one-eyed/cock-eyed versions of democracy are wooden, undynamic, and ultimately harmful. Democracy is rule by the majority; who is the dictator who says what form democracy HAS to take?
To me this is just bourgeois election fetishism that you're defending. Try sucking on toes; it might give a better buzz.
Sat, 2009-04-11 21:36
#13
Republics need revolution every so often in order to prevent themselves from becoming tyrannies!
Sat, 2009-04-11 21:55
#14
Unless you can take power peacefully, then power is not worth having.Not worth having for whom? The future victims of Saakashvili's further bombing campaigns? This is beyond your usual foolishness Stockholm. You're really making a fetish of elections and you've got me thinking. Marxists used to mock views like this view of yours in the old days as "Parliamentary cretinism". I think that was Lenin's term, but in any case the point is that such one-eyed/cock-eyed versions of democracy are wooden, undynamic, and ultimately harmful. Democracy is rule by the majority; who is the dictator who says what form democracy HAS to take?
To me this is just bourgeois election fetishism that you're defending. Try sucking on toes; it might give a better buzz.
Actually, Marx used that term. Also, both of you need to distinguish between extra-legal action and violent action. The conscious class struggle of workers has never advanced without exploying extra-legal means at some point. Whether such employment resulted in violence depended on the reaction from the other side.
And yes, Stockholm has a parliamentary fetishism if he can't even appreciate "civil disobedience" and/or illegal strike activity.
Sun, 2009-04-12 21:05
#15
"To me this is just bourgeois election fetishism that you're defending."
Oh I see so having free, afir elections is just some "bourgeois fetish" in your eyes. Who needs election when a few self-styled rabble-rousers know what the people want and that's all that matters.
I'm all for peaceful demonstrations and I'm glad to see civil society playing its role in Georgia etc... but that being said, I cannot go along with any kind of violent attempt to overthrow a democratically government. It was wrong with those crackpots in Thailand brought down a democratically elected government there by blockading airports etc...and it would be wrong if the government in Georgia is o0verthrown by some "rent-s-mob" with pitchforks.
Mon, 2009-04-13 00:53
#16
Isn't democracy supposed to be government by the will and consent of the people?
If a "democratic" government is doing something that angers people to the point where they are demonstrating publicly by the thousands, that tells me:
1. The government has lost the consent of the people.
2. Is no longer democratic if it refuses to prorogue and hold an election.
Hey, wait a minute, then wasn't that "cute" little move Harper pulled back in December 2008 anti democratic?
Mon, 2009-04-13 03:54
#17
N.Beltov
So, Stockholm, you would have supported Hitler until he was replaced in an election? No? Your absolutist fetish is pretty easy to pick off.
Of course, if US (and Canadian) imperialism didn't support the Georgian regime, then your views would probably change, eh?. Now that many of the "coloured" revolutions and US-sponsored regimes are failing, it's hardly surprising that you'd like to see such regimes stay a little longer - even one, such as the Georgian regime, that carried out such horrific Israeli-like atrocities against the civilian population of Tskinvali, South Ossetia.
Mon, 2009-04-13 10:56
#18
"Of course, if US (and Canadian) imperialism didn't support the Georgian regime, then your views would probably change, eh?"
Speak for yourself. I would ha ve opposed the coup against the democratically elected Allende government as well. I oppose anything that does not follow the due democratic process. Just because a few people have a demonstration, doesn't tell us who actually speaks for the majority of the population in Georgia. Georgia has a population of about 8 million. If 100,000 demontrate against the government - what do we know about the views of the other 7,900,000??
Of course your friend Preston Manning was big on giving people the power to "recall" their MPs midterm if they didn't like them. Maybe Georgian dissidents ought to fly in Manning for advice on how to create a recall process to bring about an early election.
Mon, 2009-04-13 14:47
#19
N.Beltov
I understand Saakashvili has been sent a ticket to the USA from the pro-Kremlin youth organization Nashi. He also was the recipient of some luggage with some rotting roses - which seems entirely apt since the fraudulent promises of the US-sponsored "Rose Revolution" have come to naught. Maybe a few more ties to chew on, like the one the nervous militarist was caught stuffing into his mouth, for the leader of Georgia's authoritarian regime?
Peaceful protests have entered their fifth day, with no end in sight. Mock jail cells are being constructed across the country, to symbolize Saakashvili's transformation of Georgia into a police state. Even Stockholm's (likely) preferred Conservative Party has publicly remarked that the protest will move to the Presidential palace/residence from the Parliament if the Georgian war-monger doesn't step down. Mind you, it's already been pelted with carrots and cabbage, symbolizing the mass contempt for the "rabbit" inside ...
The mass protests and civil disobedience will likely continue until the tie-chewing "rabbit" resigns. Opposition leader Nino Burdzhanadze has remarked that the main reason Saakashvili should resign is that the war-criminal is a threat to Georgia. He's been described as a political corpse by the Russian leader, whose country Georgia no longer has proper relations with thanks to Saakashvili's war crimes; more protestors are showing up than for the US-sponsored "Rose Revolution"; and so on.
Burdzhanadze: "A President who lost 20% of Georgian territory, who brought back 3 Russian military bases on Georgian territory, who created very difficult circumstances for the country, who made NATO membership of Georgia impossible, who gave all sorts of major Georgian resources into Russian hands, who has made dialogue with Russia impossible, ... this President is no longer able to find solutions to any of these problems and has no moral right to rule Georgia anymore. As President, his rule ended in August. It's reality."
Burdzhanadze: "...it was obvious that Georgia would lose in a military confrontation with Russia, even so, it was necessary to take steps to protect women and children (in the bombing campaign in Tskinvali)...
Burdzhanadze says that the mass protests will be within the legal framework (short of the dictator criminalizing all those who disagree with him) and the end result will be Saakashvili's inevitable resignation.
Burdzhanadze: (paraphrased) "The only thing of dialogue is the President's resignation. He cannot be trusted. He has violated people's trust too often. This may be difficult for people from democratic countries to understand ... but Saakashvili is a threat to Georgia. Every day he is in office is a danger and threat to Georgia. Otherwise, we may face the same problem we faced in August. There is no assurance that what was done in November 2007, in August 2008, will not happen again. ... The President did not utter one word to indicate that he made an errors or mistakes in his policy. Instead, he claims everything he did was right, everything was perfect. He said a few days ago: "War is not finished yet. We are in a war. We have to continue to fight." What does this mean? That tomorrow we will fight Russia again? (Jesus! What a lunatic! - N.Beltov) Nobody can give us guarantees that this will not happen, that the President will not create new headaches for the country . ... I understand that we are in a very difficult situation right now. When people have a choice between a tyranny or autocratic regime and an unpredictable person as a President (on the one hand) or the fight for democracy, people should chose the fight for democracy. And democracy will win.""
Mon, 2009-04-13 14:51
#20
Cueball
Speak for yourself. I would ha ve opposed the coup against the democratically elected Allende government as well. I oppose anything that does not follow the due democratic process. Just because a few people have a demonstration, doesn't tell us who actually speaks for the majority of the population in Georgia. Georgia has a population of about 8 million. If 100,000 demontrate against the government - what do we know about the views of the other 7,900,000??
We know that the "silent" majority is silent. If they really had an interest in keeping him around you would expect to see some action from them.
Beside, you still have to explain how peaceful protest against the government undermines the lawful democratic process. Obviously the government doesn't have to resign at the first sign of a demonstration.
Mon, 2009-04-13 15:01
#21
N.Beltov
Nino Burdzhanadze (leading Georgian opposition leader and former member of Saakashvili's cabinet):
"When people have a choice between a tyranny or autocratic regime and an unpredictable person as a President (on the one hand) or the fight for democracy, people should chose the fight for democracy. And democracy will win."
Some babblers support the fight for democracy. Others do not and instead side with tyranny and an autocratic regime.
Mon, 2009-04-13 15:23
#22
Georgians elected Shakashvili. That's their problem. They will have to wait until the next election to get rid of him - if in fact a majority of them want to. We won't know until the votes have been counted.
Mon, 2009-04-13 17:36
#23
Cueball
What now? You can't ask someone you hired to do a job to resign before his/her contract is up? Are you for real?
Mon, 2009-04-13 18:01
#24
You can ask whatever you want - but countries have constitutions and the constitution must be respected and governments should be allowed to serve the full term they were legally elected to.
I guess you must have applauded Allende being overthrown by Pinochet if you think its a good thing for unpopular freely elected governments to be violently overthrown.
Mon, 2009-04-13 18:51
#25
N.Beltov
Parroting that right wing mantra reminds me of the cowardly speech at the Leg. in Victoria by little fat Dave Barrett back in 82-83.
"Obey the Law!" said little fat Dave, to the growing anger of tens of thousands,
"Obey the law!", said little fat Dave, and we heard many say, "General Strike!",
"Obey the law!", said little fat Dave, and he never got a majority again,
"Obey the law!", said little fat Dave, and history passed him by.
Mon, 2009-04-13 18:57
#26
I know you thnk that violent revolution is so much FUn - especially when lots of people get beaten up and killed - nothing beats a little high drama in our otherwise dull lives. It is hard to get over the misfortune of living in Canada in the 00s when we could have been involved in some real ACTION - like being a part of the Reign of Terror during the French Revolution and had gobs of fun marching people to the guillotines.
Not for me. In my world we take power through the ballot box and NOT through the barrel of a gun.
I'm glad that Barrett showed some responsibility and did what he had to do to avoid bloodshed. It is an example more people should follow.
Mon, 2009-04-13 19:18
#27
N.Beltov
Try addressing Jacob Richter's point. If you're able to read it, that is.
Mon, 2009-04-13 21:02
#28
Cueball
You can ask whatever you want - but countries have constitutions and the constitution must be respected and governments should be allowed to serve the full term they were legally elected to.
I guess you must have applauded Allende being overthrown by Pinochet if you think its a good thing for unpopular freely elected governments to be violently overthrown.
Compare tens of thousands of peaceful protestors excersizing their right to speech and free assembly to Pinochet's bloody coup why not? No feat of obtuse logic, obfuscation or pedantry is beyond you.
You toadies are pretty amazing, today if there were outright revolution you would complain that protestors should have used other means, like peaceful protest, should they use peaceful protest, you claim it is too radical, anti-democratic and illegal basically, and say we should shut up between ballots. Then again, when the Saakashvili's of the world benefit from such activity, such protests are the righteous expression of the those celebrating their liberty, and so on.
Mon, 2009-04-13 21:07
#29
I'm all for peaceful protest - but to change the government you need a free and fair election - not some thugs with pitchforks doing their little version of the storming of the Bastille.
Mon, 2009-04-13 21:19
#30
Cueball
How else can a free and fair election be organized if Saakashvili doesn't resign. Has anyone suggested there would not be one?
Mon, 2009-04-13 21:45
#31
Georgia has presidential elections every four years. the last election was on January 5, 2008. The results were as follows.
If people don't like Saakashvili - they have about three years in which to organize and prepare to defeat him in 2012!!
Summary of the January 5, 2008 Georgian presidential election results
Candidates Votes %
Mikheil Saakashvili
1,060,042
53.47
Levan Gachechiladze
509,234
25.69
Badri Patarkatsishvili
140,826
7.10
Shalva Natelashvili
128,589
6.49
Davit Gamkrelidze
79,747
4.02
Gia Maisashvili
15,249
0.77
Irina Sarishvili-Chanturia
3,242
0.16
Mon, 2009-04-13 21:56
#32
Stockholm,
Allende wasn't unpopular with the majority of the people.
In your opinion then, Richard Nixon shouldn't have resigned?
Mon, 2009-04-13 22:12
#33
Nixon was going to be impeached within days anyways. If there is a constitutional process to get rid of Saakashvili and if he has broken the law - then so be it.
We have no way of knowing if he is popular or not. The last election one year ago he was still very popular. We have no way of knowing what people think of him until there is an election.
Mon, 2009-04-13 22:28
#34
And wasn't there some issues with that election?
Regardless, the people have a right to protest the government, and if it causes politicians to lose faith in the country's leadership and remove any political figure I'd wager that it was fairly democratic. Lil' Misha has squandered all of his political capital with the people and lead them through what turned into a war. I'd say that if the Georgian people are all fed up with Misha, then why can't they protest? Eh, Stock? Furthermore, I'd wager that whoever gets elected is far more representative the will of the people than Saakashvilli.
Mon, 2009-04-13 22:58
#35
People have every right to protest - but i don't favour violent overthrow of a democratically elected government.
Tue, 2009-04-14 00:57
#36
N.Beltov
We have no way of knowing if he is popular or not. The last election one year ago he was still very popular. We have no way of knowing what people think of him until there is an election.
What disgusting bullshit. Not that I'm surprised, considering the source. Do you actually read any of the contributions to these threads or do you just read YOUR OWN contributions? Repeating the election fetish mantra seems to demonstrate the latter.
IF you had read the contributions to this thread then you would have noticed that Saakashvili has not ruled out going to war again against the Russians. These are the blatherings of a meglomaniac. He could do irreparable harm to Georgia. He can no longer be trusted. All this, and more, from an opposition leader WHO, until a year ago, was a member of Saakashvili's cabinet.
Give your right wing social democrat head a shake. This tyrant is toast. He no longer has the support of the population, he took the whole country to an ill-advised war and very nearly saw Russian tanks in Tbilisi. It's all there and you can listen to the very same interview that I paraphrased.
Tue, 2009-04-14 01:39
#37
Stockholm,
Emphasizing conformity to laws and legal processes -
what about pernicious states that have pernicious laws?
I'm thinking extreme example, Nazi Germany.
Would the praiseworthy (according to the state laws) thing to do be to rat to state authorities on your Jewish or anti Nazi neighbors?
Tue, 2009-04-14 02:26
#38
Give your right wing social democrat head a shake. This tyrant is toast.
As usual, the NDP called for Canada to pursue some level of diplomacy using Ottawa's UN and NATO membership, and for the Harpers to basically grow some spines and do something more than nothing. Peggy Nash demanded that humanitarian aid be delivered to South Ossetians as did the NDP during Israel's fascist attack on Gaza. It's a violation of international law to block humanitarian aid to any country.
Tue, 2009-04-14 12:23
#39
"This tyrant is toast. He no longer has the support of the population,"
Provide proof. i want to see the results of a national referendum where a clear majority og Georgians voted No to a question asking "Do you support President Saakashvili?". Unless you can show me that - you have no evidence one way or the other as to whether or not he has the support of the population. The only thing we have to go on are the results of the last election where he won a clear majority.
Tue, 2009-04-14 13:19
#40
The only thing we have to go on are the results of the last election where he won a clear majority.
The election was tainted in several ways. Would Canadians accept election results here if, say, Chinese or Indian billionaire financiers were to fund a certain political party's election campaign in this country? Would that represent outside political interference in Canadian politics?
Under Mikhail Saakashvili Georgia has become an authoritarian[url=http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/04/opinion/04iht-edzourabichvili.html][co... Fresh Start in Georgia[/color][/url]
state, buoyed by unbalanced power and millions of dollars in aid. Institutions that should be the very foundations of democracy have been undermined. Our Parliament, with a two-thirds majority for Saakashvili's party, is unable to provide checks and balances. Elections are fraudulent and discredited, as illustrated in reports by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe on ballot-box stuffing and intimidation during the last presidential elections. . .
I have called for new elections in Georgia that would be free and fair so that the people can begin to rebuild a truly democratic society. What we need, however, is uncompromising international commitment to the basic institutions of democracy, not simply foreign support for individual leaders. Democracy must have a fresh start in Georgia - and a fresh stance from our genuine friends abroad.
Salomé Zourabichvili is a former foreign minister of Georgia.
[url=http://www.reuters.com/article/gc07/idUSL941106920080909][color=mediumbl... ballots, biased campaign tainted Georgia vote: OSCE[/b][/color][/url]
Ballot-box stuffing, beatings of opposition activists, biased news coverage and government officials campaigning for President Mikheil Saakashvili's party tainted Georgia's parliamentary elections this year, Europe's main election watchdog said on Tuesday. . .Two months before the election, Georgia changed the election code to allow the use of government resources for campaign purposes and to permit officials to mix campaigning with official duties, contravening Georgia's OSCE commitments. This created an unequal playing field in favor of the ruling party, the United National Movement, the report said. "The campaign was marred by widespread allegations of intimidation, among others of candidates, party activists and state employees," the ODIHR added
It sounds like there is little emphasis on free and fair elections in US-friendly Georgia
Tue, 2009-04-14 13:41
#41
If you can provide me with a physical copy of a petition signed by a clear majority of Georgians to the efect that they do not support Saakashvili - then you can make the claim that he isn't supported by the Georgian people. Otherwise, you are just projecting your own personal views onto the people of a country you know less than nothing about.
Tue, 2009-04-14 13:57
#42
N.Beltov
Ha ha. Stock will support this right wing shit bag right up until he's thrown out of office. Once Saakashvili is given the boot, Stock will tell us that he always had his doubts about the Georgian Pres. blah blah. Then Stock will support the Next right wing shit bag that has the blessing of the US State Department, the Conservative Party, and so on.
The tyrant is toast. Get ready to wipe the crusty egg off your face. ha ha.
Tue, 2009-04-14 14:06
#43
I neither support not oppose the president of Georgia. I'm not Georgian so it would be presumptuous of me to second-guess the results of the last election there. If in the next Georgian election, an opposition candidate runs who favour a Scandinavian-style welfare state and who is socially liberal and favours a pacifist/non-aligned foreign policy - then I would hope that that person wins. Meanwhile we have three years until the next election in Georgia - time for the opposition there to start organizing.
Tue, 2009-04-14 14:18
#44
If you can provide me with a physical copy of a petition signed by a clear majority of Georgians to the efect that they do not support Saakashvili - then you can make the claim that he isn't supported by the Georgian people. Otherwise, you are just projecting your own personal views onto the people of a country you know less than nothing about.
There are Georgian nationals as well as European elections observer groups saying that Saakashvili's government has become increasingly authoritarian wrt the last election held there - the same election which youre telling us above was legit.
If you really do desire a national petition of sorts for electing a legitimate government in Georgia, then like the rest of us, you, too, should support Georgians' demands for free and fair elections in their country and to topple the tin pot Saakashvili and his criminal government asap. No justice no peace!
Tue, 2009-04-14 14:26
#45
Saakashvili is a helluva lot more legitimate than your friend Fidel Castro who was never elected to anything. If Saakashvili is "becoming authoritarian" then people should demand he become less so. I wonder how his authoritarianism compares with King Putin dictatorship in Russia?
Tue, 2009-04-14 14:39
#46
Saakashvili is a helluva lot more legitimate than your friend Fidel Castro who was never elected to anything.
That's right, Cubans supported the revolution by repelling the CIA and fascist helpers during Bay of Pigs fiasco. And the CIA would love to attempt a colour revolution in Cuba, but they've come to the realization that none of Cuban Gladio covert ops nor gross political interference will be tolerated by Cubans.
If Saakashvili is "becoming authoritarian" then people should demand he become less so.
Well that's kinda what theyre doing now with the widespread counter-Rose protests. I think Saakashvili may want to go into hiding sub rosa.
I wonder how his authoritarianism compares with King Putin dictatorship in Russia?
And we already know what Russian opinion polls had to say about US inside man on the job Boris Yeltsin and neoliberal reforms during perestroika. Putin's oil stabilization fund created in just 2004 makes Alberta and Ottawa conservatives appear to have been on the take for years and years.
Thu, 2009-04-16 04:47
#47
N.Beltov
Good god, what a lot of feverish jibberish from Stockholm. No biggie, however; when you're ignorant about the facts in Georgia it's better to talk about something else anyway. Ha ha!
Webgear, a regular contributor to babble, mentioned the website www.stratfor.com on more than one occassion. There is an article about Georgia on that site, BTW, that may be of interest to babblers ...
Possible Revolution Simmering in Georgia
A key quote ... "all 17 (opposition) parties agreed to start with large-scale demonstrations in the streets and go from there."
Thu, 2009-04-16 15:21
#48
N.Beltov
More information ...
Protests continue around the clock in Tbilisi. In front of Parliament, in front of the major TV station, in front of the tryrant's palacial residence, on it goes, ... Georgian opposition parties have begun to form their own "people's militias" to protect themselves from attacks by the regime against peaceful protestors.
"A totalitarian regime, violations of freedom of speech, political assassinations, terroristic attacks, with many political prisoners in jail, and, of course, it is due to Saakashvili's rash actions that Georgia has lost territory." (Koba Davitashvili, Georgian People's Party)
Meanwhile, the Georgian regime is rushing ahead with NATO military "exercises", aka war "games", accelerating plans for that country to join the aggressive military alliance, and some hints at helping NATO as a transit point for military supplies and troops to Afghanistan. The opposition is concerned that the regime may entangle Georgia in another conflict with Russia and cause even more harm to the country...
Georgian opposition to protect itself.
A good question might be regarding what role Canada is, or will be, playing in this senseless and further militarization of Georgia at a time when the population is in dire need of policies that will address the effects of the global crisis in that country.
Thu, 2009-04-16 20:35
#49
"Well, as you know I have always been very pro American" - Stephen Harper.
Sat, 2009-04-18 23:10
#50
N.Beltov
Canada, it turns out, is one of the NATO member states that will be sending a military contingent to participate in the "exercises" in Georgia next month. This, in the circumstances when Saakashvili has been speaking about the war "not having ended" and so on. Madness. Will Canada play its obsequious role in starting World War III in the Caucuses? Let's hope not, even if no disgrace is too low for the Harper regime in Ottawa.
Clearly, the exercises have nothing to do with showing Georgian military strength but rather presumably demonstrate NATO's willingness to back up the militarist regime no matter how little public support it has and regardless of how worthless Georgian democracy has become. Russian commentator Alexey Sazonov sees this as more of the "Great Game" between the British and Tsarist Empires over a century ago.
NATO's plans to hold exercises in Georgia are a bold step towards showing Russia that Tbilisi's will not be allowed to fall and that Georgia as a whole is NATO partner. Europe's and US leadership, along with Western press have been very quiet about events in Tbilisi and protests against Saakashvili. In the shadow of NATO's exercises, the West cannot show that it is unsupportive of Saakashvili, for regardless of his actions they need someone friendly to them in power in order to have a foothold in the Caspian basin.
Sat, 2009-04-18 23:19
#51
Here is some cause for optimism from Gwynne Dyer:
"There is strong support for Ukrainian and Georgian membership in Washington and among the new NATO members in eastern Europe, and so far the Western Europeans have reluctantly gone along with it. Next year's NATO summit may well see both countries admitted to membership - but that would ultimately destroy NATO.
"The alliance was founded on a guarantee that all members would come to the aid of any member that came under foreign attack. It was a believable guarantee, and therefore a strong deterrent to any attack. Whereas nobody in their right minds believes that NATO would risk fighting a nuclear war with Russia to save Ukraine or Georgia if they should stumble into a military conflict with Moscow."
"So if NATO lets those countries in, it will become a two-tier alliance, with real guarantees for most members and paper promises for the others. In due course, doubts will arise about whether all the existing eastern European members are really covered by the alliance guarantee either. And if that happens, NATO finally dies."