Angels and Demons

Cosmic Rays

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Cosmic rays are nuclei and elementary particles always falling very fast on the earth from the universe. Enormous number of cosmic rays are always passing through our bodies. Cosmic rays was discovered by Victor Hess, who is an Austrian physicist, on 1912. He went up to the high altitude of 4000 meters by a balloon and found the ionization rate of the atmosphere is raised at the higher altitude by cosmic rays. After that, cosmic rays have been studied extensively and progressively, and mysteries in the Universe and the Nature are being revealed.

Cosmic rays come from the neighborhood of the Earth and also far galaxies. Galactic and extra galactic cosmic rays are considered to be accelerated at dynamical astronomical objects, such as supernova remnants, neutron stars,and active galactic nuclei. After far-reaching long traveling, they plunge into the atmosphere and bring about nuclear interactions with nuclei of oxygen and nitrogen in the air. The extraterrestrial cosmic rays which come from outside the earth are conventionally called primary cosmic rays, and newly produced particles via the nuclear interactions are called secondary cosmic rays. The main components of the secondary cosmic rays are muon, neutrino, electron, gamma ray, and neutron. While electrons and gamma rays are absorbed into the air, muons and neutrinos can be observed even under the ground.

It is necessary to see the "natural relation such an experiment" as the LHC provides as we wonder about particle interactions in Cascading processes that come to earth and are measured. By so doing you see the abstract notion of theoretics and experiemnt being played out as one pushes forward toward "new physics."

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The illustration at right shows happens. A proton from outer space (yellow) hits the upper atmosphere, and produces a shower of other particles (green). Some of these particles (mostly pions) decay into muons (red). Only a small fraction of the muons reaches the earth's surface, because most decay in flight. Therefore, at higher altitudes there are more muons, because fewer have decayed. At sea level, one muon goes through an area the size of your fingernail about every minute! See:High Energy Cosmic Rays and the Atmosphere

Using Venn Logic Unionist?:)

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Venn diagrams or set diagrams are diagrams that show all hypothetically possible logical relations between a finite collection of sets (groups of things). Venn diagrams were conceived around 1880 by John Venn. They are used in many fields, including set theory, probability, logic, statistics, and computer science. See:  Venn Diagrams

Device in Movie for Mass Destruction

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The techniques for slowing, cooling and storing cold antiprotons make it possible for ATRAP and its competitors to pursue the production of antihydrogen that is cold enough to trap for precise laser spectroscopy. TRAP got extremely close to cold antihydrogen with our simultaneous confinement of 4.2 K antiprotons and positrons reported in 1999.

All the initial cold antiproton experiments were carried out at the CERN Laboratory with antiprotons coming from its Low Energy Antiproton Ring (LEAR), a unique facility that then closed. Antihydrogen experiments in 2000 and beyond will be pursued at the new Antiproton Decelerator ring of CERN which was constructed for this purpose. Using the techniques developed by TRAP, antiprotons will be accumulated within traps rather than in storage rings, thereby reducing the operating expenses to CERN.

So you can see how early research could lead to elements within the book.  That in the year of its writing, becomes a fictious storage unit as shown in image above in the movie, shows one  in actual experimental production.

Hi Fidel,

You quoted,  and emphasized this wording.....

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And is it indeed plausible to speak of an atemporal, nonlocalized mind that exists independently of the physical body?

As with most things, scientific integrity is asked for in society. That we might be lead by a "reason based guide to living." So how do you change the paradigmatic structure inherent in society if you are to introduce "new thought processes"  for consideration and still be qualified to speak holding this scientific basis?

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Damasio's First Law
The body precedes the mind.

Damasio's Second Law
Emotions precede feelings.

Damasio's Third Law
Concepts precede words.

The 2004 Edge Annual Question...

"WHAT'S YOUR LAW?"

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There is some bit of wisdom, some rule of nature, some law-like pattern, either grand or small, that you've noticed in the universe that might as well be named after you. Gordon Moore has one; Johannes Kepler and Michael Faraday, too. So does Murphy.

Since you are so bright, you probably have at least two you can articulate. Send me two laws based on your empirical work and observations you would not mind having tagged with your name. Stick to science and to those scientific areas where you have expertise. Avoid flippancy. Remember, your name will be attached to your law.

I am asking members of the Edge community to take this project seriously as a public service, to work together to create a document that can be widely disseminated, that can stimulate discussion and the imagination.

Say the words....

Happy New Year!

John Brockman
Publisher & Editor See: World Question Center

So traditionally this perspective is "set in stone by law" and all cultures think this way?

Not likely, while influenced by historical views which have preceded our thoughts, and thoughts about what is normal? INtroduction of early history by example, is in the Tibetan Buddhism literature, and the Egyptian culture on death  and dying, were really about "books on life."

In Angels and Demons, a counter culture to the Catholic religion? It is no less the understanding that as we espouse our thoughts from a social background, we see that advantage in society has raised  it's own part of the dualistic nature, of what shall be leadng in society?

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The conclusion of the whole matter is just this,—that until a man knows the truth, and the manner of adapting the truth to the natures of other men, he cannot be a good orator; also, that the living is better than the written word, and that the principles of justice and truth when delivered by word of mouth are the legitimate offspring of a man’s own bosom, and their lawful descendants take up their abode in others. Such an orator as he is who is possessed of them, you and I would fain become. And to all composers in the world, poets, orators, legislators, we hereby announce that if their compositions are based upon these principles, then they are not only poets, orators, legislators, but philosophers.

Plato, The Dialogues of Plato, vol. 1 [387 AD] PHAEDRUS.

So you come with preconceived notions then about what can transpire in the unfolding of life? Where did these concepts exist then before life became the challenge ?? Are you a Blank Slate when you came into this world?

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A just society must be governed by men of reason.Inventing a new social myth to replace the old. Socrates calls those who rule for the benefit of the whole society and not to it's detriment golden men: in his myth they rightfully govern the men of silver and bronze.

This is the myth of metals(415a ff.) the centrepiece of a second accusation that has dogged Plato through the centuries. Plato made clear that merit and not heredity defined the gold man and that gold could be found in all parts of society. Nonetheless, Plato has never escaped the charge that he imposes upon society an elitist and authoritarian rule. The charge is pressed even though in Book IV Plato makes justice in the individual the condition of justice in society.--Pg 16, Para 2 and 3, of Plato the Republic Introduction by Richard W. Sterling and William C. Scott.

So the Dualistic nature nature while seen as opposition wihtin society as seen in Angels and Demons, it is the basis of the arguements that are moved to election platforms of the left and right.

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Plato prove that justice does not depend upon a chance, convention or upon external force. It is the right condition of the human soul by the very nature of man when seen in the fullness of his environment. It is in this way that Plato condemned the position taken by Glaucon that justice is something which is external. According to Plato, it is internal as it resides in the human soul. "It is now regarded as an inward grace and its understanding is shown to involve a study of the inner man." It is, therefore, natural and no artificial. It is therefore, not born of fear of the weak but of the longing of the human soul to do a duty according to its nature.

Plato's Concept Of Justice: An Analysis

So justice is an inherent rise above this dualism to perpetrate a higher principal then one held to the perspective of this right and left. A better governng party that seeks to bring the truth while presentation as something other then authoritarian rule is th erequirement to look within one own self for this "scale and balance" of what justice means

Best,

Noise wrote:

Spectrum - go read xkcd.com     judging by your posts, you'll appreciate the humor.

Yes I recognized the cartoon when Unionist first displayed it (

Baring My Heart

    .

Your question Noise, I am not sure why.

Cool down

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The Tao of heaven is to take from those who have too much and give to those who do not have enough. Man’s way is different. He takes from those who do not have enough to give to those who already have too much. (verse 77. Tr. Gia Fu Feng)

Noise wrote:

Skinny Dipper - no Bhuddist angels to speak of, just higher states of consciouness and being to obtain.  And dualism is a false construct :P

I tend to disagree Noise about dualism being a false construct. No doubt a struggle to identify this proces even within our own situation that we are locked on this wheel of life and one wonders how can one rise above it? Sure and most certainly, philosphical thoughts about life.

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Sir Francis Bacon-Francis Bacon, 1st Viscount St Alban KC (22 January 1561 – 9 April 1626), son of Nicholas Bacon by his second wife Anne (Cooke) Bacon, was an English philosopher, statesman, scientist, lawyer, jurist, and author. He served both as Attorney General and Lord Chancellor of England. Although his political career ended in disgrace, he remained extremely influential through his works, especially as philosophical advocate and practitioner of the scientific revolution. Indeed, his dedication may have brought him into a rare historical group of scientists who were killed by their own experiments. His most celebrated works include The New Atlantis.

Whether it's true or not some politicians become unhappy with the current state of things and dream of a better state. Dream about an ideal society. So they may adopt this new persona to drive home all those things that are not acceptable and write artistically about the new vison in poetic merit. A shakespearean perhaps? So it as a double life.

Bacon's Utopia: The New Atlantis

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In 1623 Bacon expressed his aspirations and ideals in The New Atlantis. Released in 1627, this was his creation of an ideal land where "generosity and enlightenment, dignity and splendor, piety and public spirit" were the commonly held qualities of the inhabitants of Bensalem. In this work, he portrayed a vision of the future of human discovery and knowledge. The plan and organization of his ideal college, "Solomon's House", envisioned the modern research university in both applied and pure science.

Bacons dream here is very familiar to most reserchers as one looks to Plato's dialogues. Like Shakespeare, the dialogues were scenes set by Plato himself, and in such a state,  the Atlantis "was a vision" he himself had. Some might dispute my charcterization of Plato, but I am sure that Bacon realized the way he might work, dealing with his unhappiness and charges against him,  while then following the logic of what I am saying about Plato.

Tommaso Campanella- See also:The City of the Sun

In Angel and Demons,  while it is The Roman catholic church, there is this other culture that rides along side of it,  that was to become the bankers of the world placed in positions of trust, to lead society along it's agenda.  Instead of,  the one lead by the Roman Catholic church. So this leads one to think "about presentation and the technologies we currently have" and what happened in the "frescoes of the Vatican in Rome" that we might garner from it,  a medium of expression. These then were  to  become thoughts about the measure of artistic impresssionism. Let's say by Raphael? My pick.

This was used in the film while thinking about Raphael first, it was the scupture and works of Gian Lorenzo Bernini that tantalized langdons work to point the way for this counter culture to reveal its destiny in face of that same Roman Catholic tradition.

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Francis Bacon (1561 - 1626)-----Rhetoricalthough not a rhetorician, contributed to the field in his writings. One of the concerns of the age was to find a suitable style for the discussion of scientific topics, which needed above all a clear exposition of facts and arguments, rather than the ornate style favored at the time. Bacon in his The Advancement of Learning criticized those who are preoccupied with style rather than "the weight of matter, worth of subject, soundness of argument, life of invention, or depth of judgment." On matters of style, he proposed that the style conform to the subject matter and to the audience, that simple words be employed whenever possible, and that the style should be agreeable.

So why would Bacon, if he knew to present the thoughts of the day by scientific measure, thought himself to expose, only the other side of this thinking with artistic merit? Of course I am making the connection between William Shakespeare and Sir Francis Bacon. This could all be for naught while one digests the thnking here, about the way one lives, and the world that could exist, if only....?

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Word play is a literary technique in which the nature of the words used themselves become part of the subject of the work. Puns, obscure words and meanings, clever rhetorical excursions, oddly formed sentences, and telling character names are common examples of word play.

All writers engage in word play to some extent, but certain writers are particularly adept or committed to word play. Shakespeare was a noted punster. James Joyce, whose Ulysses, and even more so, his Finnegans Wake, are filled with brilliant writing and brilliant word play is another noted word-player. For example, Joyce's phrase "they were yung and easily freudened" clearly conveys the meaning "young and easily frightened", but it also makes puns on the names of two famous psychoanalysts, Jung and Freud.

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"In a sentence, the observations are spectacular and the conclusions are stunning," said Brian Greene of Columbia University in New York City. "WMAP data support the notion that galaxies are nothing but quantum mechanics writ large across the sky." "To me, this is one of the marvels of the modern scientific age."

Hi Fidel,

I think there is indeed a change taking place in the way we look at things and scientifically this shift holds perspective about WMAP in ways that one is not accustomed? Part of my thinking is the dynamical realization of of the space we live in, andhow the depth of it is slowly being realized. That's just my opinion though.

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The Origin of the Universe as Revealed Through the Polarization of the Cosmic Microwave Background submitted by Scott Dodelson Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:27:37 GMT

Modern cosmology has sharpened questions posed for millennia about the origin of our cosmic habitat. The age-old questions have been transformed into two pressing issues primed for attack in the coming decade: How did the Universe begin? and What physical laws govern the Universe at the highest energies? The clearest window onto these questions is the pattern of polarization in the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB), which is uniquely sensitive to primordial gravity waves. A detection of the special pattern produced by gravity waves would be not only an unprecedented discovery, but also a direct probe of physics at the earliest observable instants of our Universe. Experiments which map CMB polarization over the coming decade will lead us on our first steps towards answering these age-old questions.

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With the discovery of sound waves in the CMB, we have entered a new era of precision cosmology in which we can begin to talk with certainty about the origin of structure and the content of matter and energy in the universe.Polarization

I wanted to continue with the Angel and Demons part with regard to the Fresco at the Vatican by Raphael. It is more about what is revealed, just as this counter culture revealed a course set out by the idea of the Illuminata using Bernini. It is more about our interactin with the world and how we can escape this dualistic pace we operate from, to become more intuitive about our dealings with the world and how discovering this part of truth within our own selves will allow us to discriminate what is coming at us. A basis if you might. Thanks for the article. Best,

Raphael's Fresco of the School of Athen immortalized the idea of te Aristoliean Arche. Thus this was an image much as shown in Bernini's use that we can define something about the way in which we cna percive the world and gather perspective accordingly. We need to be well equiped these days to discern the differences of what is coming at us.

I am retracing my steps in terms of the idea of this counter culture in the movie called the Illuminati, was a not so strange idea when we spoke of the idea of Plato writing his own dialogues and speaking as if a number of people, as was Shakespeare, and his real identity as that of Sir Francis Bacon, which I have elucidated in the post. So confined by their own perspectives, that they thought to speak as wide a possible and as free as possible without the constraints of? You see? Speculation of course.

In reference to Bacon...

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yet a method established to serve as being the ruler of truth. He suggested this as being what he contended to be his scientific method, which he called the inductive method which where the gathering of observational evidence of the world to be then deduced as to decide.

So most certainly describing the constraints as defined in your wording to think outside the box. So this brings us back too, the Aristotelian arche.

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Our attempt to justify our beliefs logically by giving reasons results in the "regress of reasons." Since any reason can be further challenged, the regress of reasons threatens to be an infinite regress. However, since this is impossible, there must be reasons for which there do not need to be further reasons: reasons which do not need to be proven. By definition, these are "first principles." The "Problem of First Principles" arises when we ask Why such reasons would not need to be proven. Aristotle's answer was that first principles do not need to be proven because they are self-evident, i.e. they are known to be true simply by understanding them.

[quote]Although Aristotle in general had a more empirical and experimental attitude than Plato, modern science did not come into its own until Plato's Pythagorean confidence in the mathematical nature of the world returned with Kepler, Galileo, and Newton. For instance, Aristotle, relying on a theory of opposites that is now only of historical interest, rejected Plato's attempt to match the Platonic Solids with the elements -- while Plato's expectations are realized in mineralogy and crystallography, where the Platonic Solids occur naturally.Plato and Aristotle, Up and Down-Kelley L. Ross, Ph.D.[/qoute]

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"In 1680, Isaac Newton worked on the abstract problem of gravity and he changed the world. In 1820, Michael Faraday discovered a connection between the exotic phenomena of electricity and magnetism and his discoveries electrified the world. Einstein's 1905 conceptual obsession with space and time led to nuclear energy and the operation of accelerators for knowledge, for cancer therapy and for machines that provide luminescent x-ray photographs of viruses and toxins. In 1897, the "useless" electron was discovered. In 1977, Fermilab discovered the bottom quark and in 1995 the top quark was found. The lessons of history are clear. The more exotic, the more abstract the knowledge, the more profound will be its consequences." Leon Lederman, from an address to the Franklin Institute, 1995 Physics and Society

Hi Jas,

Jas wrote:

If we continue to give reasons for reasons, from Z to Y, to X, to W, to V, to U, this is called the Regress of Reasons. Aristotle's second point was just that the regress of reasons cannot be an infinite regress. If there is no end to our reasons for reasons, then nothing would ever be proven. We would just get tired of giving reasons, with nothing established any more securely than when we started. If there is to be no infinite regress, Aristotle realized, there must be propositions that do not need, for whatever reason, to be proven.

European aristocrats transferred their lighted candles from Christian altars to Masonic lodges. The flame of occult alchemists, which had promised to turn dross into gold, reappeared at the center of new "circles" seeking to recreate a golden age: Bavarian Illuminists conspiring against the Jesuits, French Philadelphians against Napoleon, Italian charcoal burners against the Hapsburgs.

This to me set up an ultimate logic to perspective that had to rise above an inductive/deductive approach to reveal that thinking could establish a "principle in science" that would not have taken much to realize discovering the profound implication it could have with our everyday world.   To find it imbued with such simplicity, one would wonder why it never occurred to someone else before. This is a foundation issue then that goes on in science. As with, Symmetry?

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The father of all perfection in the whole world is here. Its force or power is entire if it be converted into Earth. Separate the Earth from the Fire, the subtle from the gross, sweetly with great industry. It ascends from the Earth to the Heavens and again it descends to the Earth and receives the force of things superior and inferior. By this means you shall have the glory of the whole world and thereby all obscurity shall fly from you. Its force is above all force, for it vanquishes every subtle thing and penetrates every solid thing. So was the world created. From this are and do come admirable adaptations, whereof the process is here in this. Hence am I called Hermes Trismegistus, having the three parts of the philosophy of the whole world. That which I have said of the operation of the Sun is accomplished and ended.Sir Isaac Newton-Translation of the Emerald Tablet

But there is something that science does not like,  that we might not have known had we not realized that a scientist like Newton had his own inclusion in the process,  to have us think there was something much more to this process of the gold making. To mean something much more. Then,  the principal of wo/men who had wisdom, then sought after gold,  were not to profit monetarily by?

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The Republic: "You must contrive for your future rulers another and a better life than that of a ruler and then you may have a well-ordered State; for only in the State which offers this will they rule who are truly rich not in silver and gold but in virtue and wisdom which are the true blessings of life."

So indeed,  you speak to this Christian historical occupation of the transferance to the Masonic principals, I would like to think,  that if wo/men could provide us with the inherent simplicity of an "equative design" to prepare us for traditional thinking in the world. I woud not like to think they were abscent of the understanding of this "metaphorical relation to the human being perfecting themself emotively" to produce that wisdom or silver. This is to awaken "an ideal here" about the progression of the chemistry in the human being "to thinking correctly" about the way we would want to engage life. Not some religion as it would have appeared in the struggle between the Illuminata and the Catholic Church, as was protrayed in Angels and Demons.

Wonder storyline and research to support, but far from the thinking I think predominates those who strive to get to the basis of simplicity to also think about what transpires in our social activities of babble,  while caught in a this dualistic nature of perspective arising from  the background of the priviledge or not so priviledged.

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The Errors & Animadversions of Honest Isaac Newton

by Sheldon Lee Glashow

ABSTRACT: Isaac Newton was my childhood hero. Along with Albert Einstein, he one of the greatest scientists ever, but Newton was no saint. He used his position to defame his competitors and rarely credited his colleagues.His arguments were sometimes false and contrived, his data were often fudged, and he exaggerated the accuracy of his calculations. Furthermore, his many religious works (mostly unpublished) were nonsensical or mystical, revealing him to be a creationist at heart. My talk offers a sampling of Newton’s many transgressions, social, scientific and religious

So while there is scientific validation,  as to what shall progress,  I do not like to think that the Masonic lodges were the ones to hold this principal of the work to provide for this perfecting of the human being? This was confined to indfividual who developed their labs to experiment and provide for, the stunning simplicity of truth, about discovering of experiment in distilliation  and what it provides for. Psychologically, this is easily given in societal interactions and by awareness on our upbringing.

Jas wrote:

Since principium -- from princeps, which is from primus and capio, "to take" -- already means "first" (primus), "first principles" is a redundant expression. This has happened because "principle" has come to mean a rule, perhaps a very basic rule, but not necessarily a first principle in the logical sense. Such a drift of meaning already had occurred in Mediaeval Latin, so that we get principia expanded into principia prima

This a matter of principal in Condense Matter Theorist point of view with regard to Robert Laughlin. Theoretical physics, in string theory would like to think that it understands Laughlins point of view , and with it spacetime to emerges as well from that foundational perspective. Others, renounce this symmetrical point of view as a "foundation basis" as well?

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Robert Betts Laughlin (born November 1, 1950) is a professor of Physics and Applied Physics at Stanford University who, together with Horst L. Störmer and Daniel C. Tsui, was awarded the 1998 Nobel Prize in physics for his explanation of the fractional quantum Hall effect.

Laughlin was born in Visalia, California. He earned a B.A. in Physics from UC Berkeley in 1972, and his Ph.D. in physics in 1979 at MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA. In the period of 2004-2006 he served as the president of KAIST in Daejeon, South Korea.

Laughlin shares similar views to George Chapline on the existence of black holes. See: Robert B. Laughlin

First Three minutes of Steve Weinberg or the First three seconds and we see where perspective was drawn as one delves deeper into reductionism as to the idea of the Universe when it first came into being.

The Emergent Age, by Robert Laughlin

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The natural world is regulated both by fundamental laws and by powerful principles of organization that flow out of them which are also transcendent, in that they would continue to hold even if the fundamentals were changed slightly. This is, of course, an ancient idea, but one that has now been experimentally demonstrated by the stupendously accurate reproducibility of certain measurements - in extreme cases parts in a trillion. This accuracy, which cannot be deduced from underlying microscopics, proves that matter acting collectively can generate physical law spontaneously.

Physicists have always argued about which kind of law is more important - fundamental or emergent - but they should stop. The evidence is mounting that ALL physical law is emergent, notably and especially behavior associated with the quantum mechanics of the vacuum. This observation has profound implications for those of us concerned about the future of science. We live not at the end of discovery but at the end of Reductionism, a time in which the false ideology of the human mastery of all things through microscopics is being swept away by events and reason. This is not to say that microscopic law is wrong or has no purpose, but only that it is rendered irrelevant in many circumstances by its children and its children's children, the higher organizational laws of the world.

thanks wrote:

acknowledging all that is within myself- a most difficult task, but grounding.

This sounds like a quote to me Most obvious,  of course.

It does say a lot. Because we are in a sense are like Plato and Aristotle in the center of this picture. Yet, while one can contend that Plato's view is airy and in belief so, "with finger pointing up,"  that such ideas can be transmitted to what had been scientifically challenged, information gathered, and experimental processes delivered( Aristotles hand showing all that is"), is like "taking a fork in the road," while still acknowledging that ideas can be transcendant.

To be grounded, is a philsophical challenge? Intuitive leap how airy indeed?

So how is it that such a challenge could not have been contained too, "acknowledging all that is within myself," while intuitively making the leap and say you were still responsible and had made a judgment,  moved on to consider that simplicity by dissection, revealed something new....."a most difficult task, but grounding?"

So this becomes a interaction with the world in a sense, that the interior and exterior world, become intertwined with your participation. This is a dynamical relation then that the views of Plato and Aristotle draw us toward that "center of the picture." Raphael reveals something about themf as if Raphael would like to portray?

So in this sense Angel and Demons use by the author while thinking to incorporate Bernini in this hidden language, so it is by artistic intent, that information is presented in the Frescoe to consider the context of historical particpation in the School of Athens.

For Plato then it was the ideal city-state of Kallipolis, and for Bacon, an idealized city/state?

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The Philosopher King

Plato defined a philosopher firstly as its eponymous occupation – wisdom-lover. He then distinguishes between one who loves true knowledge as opposed to simple sights or education by saying that a philosopher is the only man who has access to Forms – the archetypal entities that exist behind all representations of the form (such as Beauty itself as opposed to any one particular instance of beauty). It is next and in support of the idea that philosophers are the best rulers that Plato fashions the ship of state metaphor, one of his most often cited ideas (along with his allegory of the cave). "[A] true pilot must of necessity pay attention to the seasons, the heavens, the stars, the winds, and everything proper to the craft if he is really to rule a ship" (The Republic, 6.488d). Plato claims that the sailors (i.e., the people of the city-state over whom the philosopher is the potential ruler) ignore the philosopher's "idle stargazing" because they have never encountered a true philosopher before.

Stargazers by Paul Rossetti Bjarnson, Pg 102, Chapter XV

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The ancient emphasis on deduction has its representative in Aristotle's Organum, and the new emphasis on induction and research has its representative in Francis Bacon's treatise Novum Organum.

Noise wrote:

I find myself at odds with this point and I was wondering if you guys are aware of any contrary opinions to this...it is an infinite regress and all proven knowledge is based on assumptions/reasons that have yet to be reasoned (all proof is based on unproven assumptions).

I think the term might be included as "Self-Evident." This does not mean you discard the critical analysis for which science ask you to be responsible. You gather information. You look at the theoretics. You look at experiments. This paves the way for new processes to be considered.

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We hold (they say) these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal. In what are they created equal? Is it in size, understanding, figure, moral or civil accomplishments, or situation of life?Benjamin Franklin-The Gentleman's Magazine, vol. 46, pp. 403–404)

Benjamin Franklin thought to question Thomas Jefferson penned version, because of it's applicability to all people. Driven then,  by the necessity of deduction it was well aparent that such a wording of drafting a constitution would then fall under such scrutiny. Driven too, what is self evident? Constitutions in general set out the conduct becoming and rights.

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Alain Connes-Where a dictionary proceeds in a circular manner, defining a word by reference to another, the basic concepts of mathematics are infinitely closer to an indecomposable element", a kind of elementary particle" of thought with a minimal amount of ambiguity in their definition.

Not only in scientific process do we see where this works, but to the basis of a social and democratic understanding about the rights under the drafting of any consitution. This is a fundamental recognition of what we have to face in our own analysis of the way the world is operating around us. The work that goes into dealing with the "inherent insights" we take from information we gather in media, television, and the internet. Now, what has it done to this "discerning principle" that resides in each of us. Desensitized, we let society go on with itself. We let politics, go it's way and "sleeping people" never know. They just vote, a party.

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William Thurston of Cornell, the author of a deeper conjecture that includes Poincaré’s and that is now apparently proved, said, “Math is really about the human mind, about how people can think effectively, and why curiosity is quite a good guide,” explaining that curiosity is tied in some way with intuition.

“You don’t see what you’re seeing until you see it,” Dr. Thurston said, “but when you do see it, it lets you see many other things.Elusive Proof, Elusive Prover: A New Mathematical Mystery

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Just as some prisoners may escape out into the sun, so may some people amass knowledge and ascend into the light of true reality.The Holographic Principle and M-theory

Some might suspect "by theoretical definition"  some may see themself above the fray of human endeavor by such proposals? But it is a foundational basis of perspective,  that such thinking could be moved to theoretical positions. This  theoretical thinking can appear quite airy indeed. But airy it's not,  so commentaries about how insufficient this is has been voiced by a experimental disregard.. Since the reach for an explanation about the world, as it sits in relation too, a much finer disposition, spacetime had been understood to be a result of something else. You see?

thanks wrote:

"the upper world where eternal and changeless reality lies and to remain there in its true home"  ??

I recognized this quote as well and I would like to explain it.

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I know not how, may find their way to the minds of humanity in Some Dimensionality, and may stir up who shall refuse to be confined to limited Dimensionality." from Flatland, by E. A. Abbott

It's a perspective about the finer recognition of the prisoner having broken free, realizes what shadows he casts, was a shadow with the realization that the sun  shone from behind. So there is this emblematic realization of how the Sun portrays the freedom of wisdom and enlightenment,  having left the cave. Helps to direct the thinking mind to a "higher dimensional" world. All those things out there and around us, as we sit in the real world.

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A picture, a photograph, or a painting is not the real world that it depicts. It's flat, not full with three dimensional depth like the real thing. Look at it from the side-almost edge on. It doesn't look anything like the real scene view from a angle. In short it's two dimensional while the world is three dimensional. The artist, using perceptual sleight of hand, has conned you into producing a three dimensional image in your brain, but in fact the information just isn't there to form a three dimensional model of the scene. There is no way to tell if that figure is a distant giant or a close midget There is no way to tell if the figure is made of plaster or if it's filled with blood or guts. The brain is providing information that is not really present in the painted strokes on the canvas or the darken grains of silver on the photographic surface. The Cosmic Landscape by Leonard Susskind, page 337 and 338

I have seen this exact thinking in how one might have been shaped by geometrical perspective. A holographical of what is shone onto a two dimenisonal sheet. Stephen Hawking used this in one of his books.

See:Oskar Klein Professorship Inaugural Lecture: "The World in Eleven Dimensions"

So this is a scientific endeavor to see "projections of geometry in space" that our feeble minds cannot engross by simple conjectures alone   is not without regard to dimensionality and roads to unification of gravity and light.

Quote:

"...underwriting the form languages of ever more domains of mathematics is a set of deep patterns which not only offer access to a kind of ideality that Plato claimed to see the universe as created with in the Timaeus; more than this, the realm of Platonic forms is itself subsumed in this new set of design elements-- and their most general instances are not the regular solids, but crystallographic reflection groups. You know, those things the non-professionals call . . . kaleidoscopes! * (In the next exciting episode, we'll see how Derrida claims mathematics is the key to freeing us from 'logocentrism'-- then ask him why, then, he jettisoned the deepest structures of mathematical patterning just to make his name...)

* H. S. M. Coxeter, Regular Polytopes (New York: Dover, 1973) is the great classic text by a great creative force in this beautiful area of geometry (A polytope is an n-dimensional analog of a polygon or polyhedron. Chapter V of this book is entitled 'The Kaleidoscope'....)"

It seems Thanks I might have gone to far so I will get back to the quote you presented for examination with the following quote.

Quote:

"AND we should consider that God gave the sovereign part of the human soul to be the divinity of each one, being that part which, as we say, dwells at the top of the body, inasmuch as we are a plant not of an earthly but of a heavenly growth, raises us from earth to our kindred who are in heaven. And in this we say truly; for the divine power suspended the head and root of us from that place where the generation of the soul first began, and thus made the whole body upright. When a man is always occupied with the cravings of desire and ambition, and is eagerly striving to satisfy them, all his thoughts must be mortal, and, as far as it is possible altogether to become such, he must be mortal every whit, because he has cherished his mortal part. But he who has been earnest in the love of knowledge and of true wisdom, and has exercised his intellect more than any other part of him, must have thoughts immortal and divine, if he attain truth, and in so far as human nature is capable of sharing in immortality, he must altogether be immortal; and since he is ever cherishing the divine power, and has the divinity within him in perfect order, he will be perfectly happy. Now there is only one way of taking care of things, and this is to give to each the food and motion which are natural to it. And the motions which are naturally akin to the divine principle within us are the thoughts and revolutions of the universe. These each man should follow, and correct the courses of the head which were corrupted at our birth, and by learning the harmonies and revolutions of the universe, should assimilate the thinking being to the thought, renewing his original nature, and having assimilated them should attain to that perfect life which the gods have set before mankind, both for the present and the future."Plato from Timaeus, 90a-d, translated by B. Jowett

Michelle wrote:

This is a very interesting and fun thread, Spectrum.  Thanks for starting it!  Reading with interest.

Thanks Michelle

I couldn't move ahead without participants, "real or imagined.":) I point to the "creative writing" of Plato and Bacon, as Shakespeare, to show that such roads leading to insight need this type of interaction in order to prgress. Create "that moment" where ideas can enter, and new thoughts, open new doorways. Just the way it is.

The idea that the teacher and student could exist in the same person should not be thought of as "psychiatric need," but of something that resounds deeply each time we live our day and take it into the "resouding depths of our natures,"  to create so well. One might consider, how creative people are in general and don't know it?

Where would  we be without such writers of the Dialogues, or,  the Plays?

Best,

Let's keep the issue of economy alive here and the struggle between facets of our society that might develope perspective about a counter culture that exists. This was a inherent struggle diagnosed in Robert Pirsig and John Nash to show, that the ability of any society  can become fraught with the struggle to be, always assertively saying who we are are by name.

So to conitinue from the factual explorations science had undertaken,  too the story of Angel and Daemons is to realize the struggle society can manifest with itself in an open dialogue with respect to position. It is about being aware first, then knowing that an emotive struggle is to be realized,  as the ever emotive charge seals memory to its place.

One cannot imagine the full scope with which one might respond to criticism about a particular position and point of view. The lesson about Fear is an important one. This distinction needed to be seen in relation to what was being said and could have been mistakenly seen as so.

Yet, it should be noted that while not speaking directly to the fear or that it could it have been thought enduring too, by comment, it was never my intention. That such an action taken by scientist is an example in my books where science is working "outside the box" to help us see if they can add or change conceptual frameworks that are stuck in the current economic reality.

Learning about Pirsig's use in literary style about rhetoric and oration was a lesson in itself about what and who is speaking. It was about not being stagnant in view of, but taking on the challenge to bring new hope to a current treadmill that mice are running, or "busy bees" are working.

There is a distinction that I had come across in terms of Pessimism and Optimism. It seemingly shows the negative on the one hand, requires one to take stock of, while on the other half of the partnership, is to see that optimism is eventually reached. One should know that if they take the proper steps in accounting, they can indeed see a brighter future. This in no way should be seen as "fear mongering," but of a responsibility to self and others to check the current situation and to act accordingly.

Of course, you might have seen some of my own pithy attempts at addition? These are listed under the label of Economics. They take to heart that seeing above the dilemma, is to see applicability that would not normally have been entertained.

Emotive Struggle

Is not something we can underscore without realizing the impact such emotions may have on a society as a whole. To see that the ideology of the struggle to become better persons, is to unshackle ourselves from those things which hold and bind us to our current, and existing state of mind. That such brief moments of the real you,  are the respite with which we seek to advance who we are, is to remind ourselves of the person by name we had become.

Are we then not in appearance locked in the battle to become "another person" amongst the struggles of dualism that perpetuate our continuing to run that wheel of life? It would seem then such "a Daemon" that would appear to exist as a counter culture to advancement, would keep us and forever keep us locked in that dualism. You see?

Seeing the images of emotively charge packets are but the process with which to forever remain in that cyclical universe. Is to realize that going "outside the box" is to shock the system and slap it into recognition of moving away from it's "normal attributive" position. If one were to imagine this cloud gathering itself around anyone, then it would have to appear that it always appeared at one spot continually, while the idea is to shift this perspective and shake it from what it has always known.

Bacon's Utopia: The New Atlantis

Quote:

In 1623 Bacon expressed his aspirations and ideals in The New Atlantis. Released in 1627, this was his creation of an ideal land where "generosity and enlightenment, dignity and splendor, piety and public spirit" were the commonly held qualities of the inhabitants of Bensalem. In this work, he portrayed a vision of the future of human discovery and knowledge. The plan and organization of his ideal college, "Solomon's House", envisioned the modern research university in both applied and pure science.

Unfortunately I do not have high speed, so this makes looking at what your pointing too, difficult to surmize from what you related. Could you be more specific?

Best,