Olivia Chow marches in support of Apartheid
I like Olivia and I don't get why she's participating in this disgusting event. Is it...
1. because she really believes in the State of Israel?
2. because the NDP needs "representation" at the march?
3. or is she worried about Zionist voters in Trinity-Spadina swinging to the Liberals which can make the difference in a close race?
Only one NDP politician showing support for Israeli apartheid?
That's nothing compared to the typical attendance rates for NDP politicians at events celebrating the occupation in Winnipeg.
Yes, and I think she does a fine goose step, too. We need that rolly eyes emoticon that we used to have on babble
This year's Walk with Israel in Toronto has raised about $186,000 thus far, going toward educational and social initiatives for northern communities in Israel
According to Wiki, ethnic Arabs comprise over 50% of the population in northern Israel. This annual walk in Toronto sounds like your typical fascist plot to me, for-sure for-sure!! :rollyeyes: x's 3
Only one NDP politician showing support for Israeli apartheid?
That's nothing compared to the typical attendance rates for NDP politicians at events celebrating the occupation in Winnipeg.
There are only 2 NDP MPs in Toronto. There may have been local NDP politicians like Joe Mihevc, Howard Moscoe or Adam Giambrone who have participated in the past.
Since when is attending a national celebration endorsing specific policies of that country? if a politician attends a Chinese New Year celebration does that mean tehy support China's actions in Tibet? If you do a BBQ and light off a few fireworks on Canada Day, is that an endorsement of Stephen Harper? Politicians get invited to all sorts of community events and being a good representative means attending them and meeting their constituents, not all of who share their views.
Only one NDP politician showing support for Israeli apartheid?
That's nothing compared to the typical attendance rates for NDP politicians at events celebrating the occupation in Winnipeg.
There are only 2 NDP MPs in Toronto. There may have been local NDP politicians like Joe Mihevc, Howard Moscoe or Adam Giambrone who have participated in the past.
We've only got three. Of course, I guess we also have about 30 MLAs and maybe around five city councillors.
Since when is attending a national celebration endorsing specific policies of that country? if a politician attends a Chinese New Year celebration does that mean tehy support China's actions in Tibet? If you do a BBQ and light off a few fireworks on Canada Day, is that an endorsement of Stephen Harper? Politicians get invited to all sorts of community events and being a good representative means attending them and meeting their constituents, not all of who share their views.
The answer is no. But I think those whose purpose it is to spread false and misleading information about the NDP on a constant basis wont see it that way
Since when is attending a national celebration endorsing specific policies of that country?
Maybe Ms. Chow doesn't realize that this "national celebration" coincides with the expulsion of 750,000 Palestinians from their homes.
She may also be unaware that if the Deputy Prime Minister of Israel has his way, [url=http://rabble.ca/babble/international-news-and-politics/israeli-fascists... will soon be unlawful[/color][/url] to mourn that expulsion on Israel's "birthday", on pain of three years' imprisonment.
Perhaps if Ms. Chow were aware of these and other facts, she would think twice about what it means to "Walk With Israel".
Since when is attending a national celebration endorsing specific policies of that country? if a politician attends a Chinese New Year celebration does that mean tehy support China's actions in Tibet? If you do a BBQ and light off a few fireworks on Canada Day, is that an endorsement of Stephen Harper? Politicians get invited to all sorts of community events and being a good representative means attending them and meeting their constituents, not all of who share their views.
If the Chinese New Year celebration was a fundraiser to raise money to aid Chinese people living in Tibet to the exculsion of Tibetan residents then I would say attending such an event would be a very bad political choice for a politician.
You could argue that ALL fundraisers are "to the exclusion" of others. When Hospital A holds a fundraiser, it's to the "exclusion" of Hospital B. But by attending, I'm not showing any sort of disdain for hospital B. If I give money to AIDS research, that shouldn't be taken to mean that I don't care about people with cancer. Different groups raise money for different causes and hopefully all good causes can be supported.
I'm sure Jack has attended Greek celebartions on the danforth - I don't know if that implies support for Greece's de facto occupation of the southern two-thirds of Cyprus.
doesn't realize that this "national celebration" coincides with the expulsion of 750,000 Palestinians from their homes.
And this upcoming Canada Day will "coincide" with the announcement of a 50 billion dollar deficit. But by throwing some burgers on the BBQ, lighting off some fireworks and waving the flag, you're not celebrating the deficit or any particular policy or any particular government. You're celebrating Canada. Politicians attend all sorts of cultural, national, religious, etc celebrations because its tehir job to represent people in their communities for whom such celebrations are important. It's hardly an endorsement of "apartheid" when Olivia Chow shows up at walk for israel. Anymore so that Stephen Harper is endorsing "communism" by participating in a Chinese New years event.
I wonder if Ms. Chow has ever been invited to a commemoration of the Nakba. I wonder if she would go. What I do not wonder is what the reaction would be of Israel sycophants. Some things are predictable.
I don't mind if she does. I think its is critically important to make the point that no one has to choose between Isreal existing and find a just solution for the Palestinians. There are ways to have both.
It wouldn't surprise me if she has attended, which of course, would be perfectly fine. Though i don't think the analogy is apt since a "commemoration of the nakba" is an inherently political event whereas a "walk with Israel" is not inherently political anymore so than a Chinese new years celebration or a Carribana parade. They are cultural events that take place regardless and indifferent to whoever happens to be in power or what particular policies are presently being implimented.
We can always count on good old “aka Mycroft” and “Unionist” for a good Jew-bashing-fest.
You guys make me laugh.
Hamas, Fatah, the Islamic Jihad Movement, Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades – I suppose you think it would be awesome to live under the violence, corruption, lawlessness, poverty that all these groups stand for and inflict on the "Palestinians".
Long live Israel!
... a "walk with Israel" is not inherently political anymore so than a Chinese new years celebration or a Carribana parade. They are cultural events that take place regardless and indifferent to whoever happens to be in power or what particular policies are presently being implimented.
I'll assume you are just unaware, rather than fabricating:
There is no more powerful expression of solidarity with the people of Israel than showing them how much we care by walking [b]in support of our Jewish homeland[/b].
That's the official line of [url=http://www.walkwithisrael.com/index.php?page=whereMoneyGoes][color=red]the Walk With Israel organizers[/color][/url].
It's not even just a commemoration of the formation of the Israeli state. It is the very political statement which is the hallmark of apartheid in Israel (Jews vs. others) and within the region as a whole.
Ms. Chow ought to be informed that, when she participates, she is lending support to that political statement.
I'm sure Peter Kent attended because it is a cultural event, not a political one as well.
We can all have our cake and eat it too - the message must be sent out that there can be a Jewish homeland in Israel AND there can also be an independent Palestinian state that can co-exist with it. We can and must have both.
By the by. The serious issue is not Chow's attendance at this event, but the attempt by the B'nai Brith, the City of Toronto and the TD bank to force the Gay Pride day event to prevent gay and lesbian anti-apartheid Israel protestors from being at the Gay Pride event.
I'm sure Peter Kent attended because it is a cultural event, not a political one as well.
And I'm sure when a politician attends Chinese new years celebrations, THATS not political either. or gay pride or caribana or a menorah lighting. Politicians trying to win votes by attending cultural events is hardly new.
I like Olivia and I don't get why she's participating in this disgusting event. Is it...
1. because she really believes in the State of Israel?
2. because the NDP needs "representation" at the march?
3. or is she worried about Zionist voters in Trinity-Spadina swinging to the Liberals which can make the difference in a close race?
Not sure what her reasoning is, probably #2. But there are quite a few Zionists in the Trinity-Spadina NDP, believe it or not.
How about politicians trying to win points by shutting events down, like the B'nai Brith is trying to do to Gay Pride?
How about politicians trying to win points by shutting events down, like the B'nai Brith is trying to do to Gay Pride?
That's quite a red herring.
For what it's worth, I don't think Bnai Brith are "politicians". Though I think they DO have an obligation (like politicians) to represent their "constituents" - in this case Jews, including gay Jews. I haven't seen anyone here trying to defend their attempted interference in the Pride parade, though, so I don't know why you brought it up. Personally, I think it's quite possible to be able to support both the pride aprade and the Walk with israel.
I have to agree with SSC on this one and there is a thread about that already.
No. They are not "politicians" per se, they are lobbyist who do the "point scoring."
You seem perfectly happy to have Chow support an event, and her right to be there, but not at all concerned about the B'nai Brith to attack Gay Pride because some Jewish and Arab participants have political views at odds with the B'nai Brith.
No. They are not "politicians" per se, they are lobbyist who do the "point scoring."
You seem perfectly happy to have Chow support an event, and her right to be there, but not at all concerned about the B'nai Brith to attack Gay Pride because some Jewish and Arab participants have political views at odds with the B'nai Brith.
What did I just say? The two are not related, first of all. Second of all, I think it was clear that i don't agree with the "interference" that Bnai Brith is making with regards to the Pride parade. I (and I don't think anyone else) ever defended Bnai brith's getting involved in that issue. The way I look at it is that the pride aprade is largely organized by the gay community for the gay community and as a straight guy who doesnt even live in Toronto, I ahve no interest in telling them how to run tehir event.
We can always count on good old “aka Mycroft” and “Unionist” for a good Jew-bashing-fest
You've crossed the line into libel.
How about politicians trying to win points by shutting events down, like the B'nai Brith is trying to do to Gay Pride?
That's quite a red herring.
For what it's worth, I don't think Bnai Brith are "politicians".
Really? Frank Dimant was a candidate for the Canadian Alliance a few elections ago and Bnai Brith is pretty closely stitched up with the Conservative Party since its founding.
No. They are not "politicians" per se, they are lobbyist who do the "point scoring."
You seem perfectly happy to have Chow support an event, and her right to be there, but not at all concerned about the B'nai Brith to attack Gay Pride because some Jewish and Arab participants have political views at odds with the B'nai Brith.
What did I just say? The two are not related, first of all. Second of all, I think it was clear that i don't agree with the "interference" that Bnai Brith is making with regards to the Pride parade. I (and I don't think anyone else) ever defended Bnai brith's getting involved in that issue. The way I look at it is that the pride aprade is largely organized by the gay community for the gay community and as a straight guy who doesnt even live in Toronto, I ahve no interest in telling them how to run tehir event.
Nor are you a member of the NDP, or a person from Trinity Spadina, or even Toronto. On what basis do you assert the validity of your interest in telling me how I should react to the public activities of my MP?
He was? I don't remember Dimant being an actual candidate. I do remember he used to write opeds blasting Jewish voters for not supporting the Conservatives though.
We can all have our cake and eat it too - the message must be sent out that there can be a Jewish homeland in Israel ...
No, that's a Zionist thesis, and it feeds into antisemites who consider Jews as aliens in other countries. Canadian politicians and international law can recognize the juridical reality that is Israel, with its recognized (pre-1967) borders. But to call it a "Jewish homeland" is shameless support for Zionism and for apartheid. Just because various countries call themselves "Islamic" does not mean it is ok for Canada to view them that way.
Actually that would be "recognition of its (pre-1967) borders". None of Israel's borders are "recognized", since eveything after the 48 partition is illgal annexation. That is the judicial reality. This is important because it is necessary to remember that it is the Arabs and the Palestinians who have agreed to give up land, not Israel.
We can always count on good old “aka Mycroft” and “Unionist” for a good Jew-bashing-fest
You've crossed the line into libel.
Don't worry, he's gone.
Don't think anyone was that worried. Imagine some lewd guy flashing people who are talking on the street, and the people ignoring him.
No, that's a Zionist thesis, and it feeds into antisemites who consider Jews as aliens in other countries.
Thank you for this explanation unionist, as I was not quite understanding what you meant when you bolded the above point which stated Jewish homeland.
Actually that would be "recognition of its (pre-1967) borders". None of Israel's borders are "recognized", since eveything after the 48 partition is illgal annexation. That is the judicial reality.
I don't think that's factual, Cueball. Even though I condemn the 1948 annexations and expulsion of Palestinians; even though I (and international law) uphold the right of return for those expelled; and even though I condemn the apartheid state that the Zionists have erected; I don't think you'll find any U.N. resolutions or any article of international law that calls Israel's pre-1967 territories as "occupied" or illegal. But I stand to be corrected. Anyway, from Resolution 242:
- (i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
- (ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;
[url=http://canadian-firebrand.blogspot.com/2009/05/turnout-for-walk-with-isr... at "Walk with Israel" Down Again[/url]
Anyone who doubts that support for Israel among Canadian Jews is dropping need only to look at the turnout for Toronto's annual "Walk with Israel" - the Toronto United Jewish Appeal's major fundraiser for the year. The intensification of pro-Israel advocacy efforts and mounting shrillness on Israel by the Canadian Jewish Congress has not resulted in a deepening of feeling for Israel by Jews. Rather, the horrors of the Gaza conflict has caused a growing number of Jews to question Israeli policies or at least doubt them enough not to come running when self-appointed leaders of the community come calling. This year about half as many answered the UJA/CJC's call as did four years ago.
There is no official recognition of Israeli borders up to the green line, as far as it extends beyond the 1948 partition. Anything in between legally belongs to the Palestinians, since the UN has never passed a resolution awarding Israel these territories. There were various interim truce agreements, and so on and so forth, but the direct legal annexation of these territories was carried out entirely within the Israeli judicial process, not an international one. Nor have the Palestinian agreed to ceceding them. Yasser Arafat and the PLO, with the approval of the PNA proposed to recognize these territorial aquisition as well as the partition under Oslo, under the terms that Israel would return to the 1967 "green line".
It is in fact the fulfillment of resolution 242.
This was a concession on behalf of the Palestinians of any claim they had upon those territories. Focussing on this point reminds us that it is the Palestinians who are surrendering land, not Israel, when, and if, Israel finally meets its commitments under Oslo and UN resolution 242.
Let's not let ourselves fall into the trap of allowing Israel boosters to pretend abiding by 242 under the terms of Oslo is anything less than a concession by Palestinians.
How is the thread title not libel???
I like Olivia and I don't get why she's participating in this disgusting event. Is it...
1. because she really believes in the State of Israel?
2. because the NDP needs "representation" at the march?
3. or is she worried about Zionist voters in Trinity-Spadina swinging to the Liberals which can make the difference in a close race?
Not sure what her reasoning is, probably #2. But there are quite a few Zionists in the Trinity-Spadina NDP, believe it or not.
No need to embroider conspiracy theory with the NDP, it gives the reason for the annual walk there at the end of the Gob&Pail article:
This year's Walk with Israel in Toronto has raised about $186,000 thus far, going toward educational and social initiatives for northern communities in Israel.
The money isnt going for Israeli WMD, or even to line the pockets of some former cold war era gladios now in municipal-state guvmint in Kabul-Afghanistan. No.
This thread ties in somewhat nicely with babblers' deep concern for two Winnipeg children in another thread. And remember, it's all about THE CHILDREN
How is the thread title not libel???
'Nakba law' not alone: The Knesset on Wednesday morning approved in a preliminary reading a bill introducing one year in prison for anyone speaking against Israel's existence as a Jewish and democratic state, should the call contain a reasonable possibility "that it may lead to acts of hatred, scorn or lack of loyalty to the State or its government authorities or law systems which have been established legally."
Israeli fascists seek to ban commemoration of Nakba and force allegiance to "Jewish" state
"Olivia Chow marches in support of Apartheid"
I've put in an official request for change of thread title to something that reflects reality
I like the way that people are bereft of arguements always turn to what Skdadl used to call "formalizing" consent. How appropriate that you desire to suppress unfavourable opinions of members of your party, should follow hot on the heals of my post outlining the passage of thought control laws in Israel:
Was said then by opposition MP's in the Knesset, Bar-On asked: "You want to punish people for speaking? Soon you'll want to punish people for thinking."
re: #15, way wrong on all counts. assumptions, assumptions.
To say she marched for apartheid implies that she is effectively now an activist for that policy-- overtly, directly, for that purpose.
That is libel.
To say she marched for apartheid implies that she is effectively now an activist for that policy-- overtly, directly, for that purpose.
That is libel.
"This year's Walk with Israel in Toronto has raised about $186,000 thus far, going toward educational and social initiatives for northern communities in Israel"
Of course, I can see where Liberal Party supporters would totally ignore this fact as that party has shown similar disdain for children's rights while in federal government for far too many years.
You don't have anything better than that Sean? You have now entered the world of Jason Kenney speech full throttle. By saying that saying that "joining a march in support of Israel is a march for Apartheid" is defamation, you are also saying that the assertion that "Israel is an Apartheid state" is defamatory. Welcome to the world of the "new" antisemtism.
How is the thread title not libel???
Sean, I quoted from the official website saying that it was a march "in support of our Jewish homeland".
If, 20 years ago, a Canadian politician had joined a South African march billed as being "in support of our European homeland", then I would have characterized their participation in the same way.
If Ms. Chow didn't know what the march was about, then she can plead ignorance and go do some reading. If she knew, then she marched in support of apartheid. That's not "libel" - it's my honest opinion. You can refute my opinion if you like. Just don't try banning it.
Oh, by the way, anyone that calls Israel my "homeland" is attacking me personally and is an antisemite. Is that libel too?
If Ms. Chow didn't know what the march was about,
I think it's you who doesnt understand what the annual walk is about. We had this same dumb argument last year, remember?