I live in a sealing community, but this year no one bothered because there's no market for seal products. This is the first year since 1995 that I have not had some seal meat given to me as a gift. 
Fried seal is my favourite breakfast in the cold spring months. I've never had seal flipper pie in all these years on the Quebec coast.
(I always cook seal meat btw - I'm not inclined to try seal sushi, or indeed any sushi or tartare)
Keystone - it's interesting to see how you can identify one set of tactics used here in Canada, but completely miss the same tactics being used to villinify the Seal hunt in the EU to distract from Mink farming and other practices. It's a scapegoat, survival of the cutest...
Do you honestly think it is a coincidence that Canadians support the seal hunt, while the rest of the world is opposed to it?
Have you seen an anti-sealing ad that didn't feature a (usually plastic) whitecoat covered in red food colouring?If you go somewhere that the media hasn't done the opposite of our media, then you'll find they don't care either way. It's polarized in both directions...it's funny that you can only see the the polarization that helps your talking points.
There's widespread animal abuse going on all over the world, from the force-fed foie gras geese to the battery chickens that get their beaks cut off, to monkeys that get vivisected, to encaged bears in China with tubes draining from their gall bladders. By international standards, the seal hunt doesn't seem so bad, considering that the seals get to live their lives in the wild before being killed.
IMO, the whole seal hunt thing is a fund-raising ploy by animal rights' activists. I mean, it's got all the essential elements: cute animals with big baby-human-looking eyes being killed by people who don't have a lot of power and money to defend themselves. Just splash around a few flyers showing the red blood on the white ice, and all the people who don't hate puppies and kittens are opening their wallets.
It's emotionally-based manipulation with no basis in real conservation. Seals are not an endangered species, but some of the fish they eat are.
I think it would be much more useful, and alleviate much more suffering, to go after veal producers than seal hunters.
But seal hunters are from an economically depressed region of the country and therefore a much easier target, right? The EU are being total hypocrites on this.
I agree, though I am not upset with, nor do I think Keystone's comments are off the mark by any means.
But in the end, it is the hypocrisy.
Three times in the last century, these oh so wise Europeans called upon Canadian youth to step in because they couldn't treat each other humanely. And, they have the nerve to cast aspersions our way?
Screw them, and treat nicely the horse they rode in on. Hopefully before they eat the horse they rode in on.
We are being lectured to by the British, who for centuries took everything they could from the Grand Banks? Whose idea of a jolly good time is chasing a Fox from Horseback and letting it be torn to shreds by a pack of hounds? From the French, who will stop at no evil to animals if it means they can put a small portion of it on a plate and grossly over charge you for it? To suffer the peccadillos of Spanish hypocrisy? And, last but certainly not least, I will not be lectured to by the German government on issues of humanity-- not for another century, at least.
I know we like to trash the Yanks here, but man, Canada truly lucked out on neighbours compared to what's across the pond.
I'm fairly dissapointed with both the Governor General and left-wing Canadians.
Ugh... I'll bite.
Keystone, your opinion is your opinion, but you've injected so many lies, factual innaccuracies, irrelevancies, inconsistenies, and hypocritical comments into this debate that it is simply impossible to respond to it without writing a tome at least as big as your own. However, if you're interested in hearing a point-by-point analysis from a fellow progressive, I'm game.
In the meantime, it seems every single thing you've written can be easily countered by almost anyone in the attentive public with a passing knowledge of this issue. Quite frankly I'm surprised that someone who CLAIMS to have witnessed the seal hunt in Nunavut would say such startlingly silly and simplistic things as you've said.
The only thing I can say I agree with that you've said is not even something you said but something you insinuated. That is, that the pro-sealing lobby, to the extent that it exists, deserves criticism too. It does, and it deserves a lot of criticism, mainly for missing the point, misdirecting their energies, not engaging with their own hypocrisies (no one mentions the long-standing U.S. ban), obvious and public obfuscation of the facts "on the ice" (this has been done by government agencies, politicians, and lobby groups alike), not to mention extreme inertia towards more regulation and reform.
I suppose the most glaringly hypocritical thing you've said is that you derided the Governor-General for supposedly "[trying to] protect the commerical seal hunt by using the Inuit culture and way of life" when you yourself are using the supposed differences between the Inuit and non-Inuit hunts (there are in fact few if any differences) to defend your own position on this hunt.
On another note, both sides here are using the Inuit here (apparently no one gives a shit about poor people in Quebec and Atlantic Canada); the difference is that the Inuit are one side, and you, Keystone, are on the other.
As far as this EU "exemption for the Inuit" goes -- it's only an exemption if they stay in the nice convenient illusions spun about them in Europe, and don't do anything commercial. The exemption is more an attempt to impose a certain way of life on the Inuit, one that has more to do with Rousseau's fantasies than the loved reality of anyone in Nunavut or the rest of the north. To me, it looks like racism dressed up in a nice shiny suit.
I think you might want to spend a wee bit more time in the Artic if you think all traditional seal hunting takes place at an air hole. Ignorance in supporting what you want to believe in seems to be a pretty universal trait not limited to Canadians or us disappointing left-wingers.
Granted, it's been a while. Regardless, I'm fairly certain that the Inuit seal hunt doesn't involve running around on the ice floes and trying to club as many baby seals to death as possible, before skinning them and leaving the carcasses to rot.
Incidentially, the reason I'm not disappointed with the right-wingers is I have no expectations. I expect them to be falsely patriotic and self-interested.
Rightly or wrongly, the EU sees a difference between veal and the seal hunt.
"Put that through your "coincidence" test."
There are differences. Wild vs domestic. The whole animal being used vs only the pelt.
Sure, I agree - not a huge difference. It is much easier to ban something that does not affect you directly.
For instance, even barbaric Canada might consider banning shark fin soup, and bullfighting.
"Do you suppose their opinion has less to do with animal cruelty, and more to do with the fact that they don't hunt seals, and they like to eat emaciated newborn calves?"
Hard to say. I am sure that the fact that they have less lobbyists protecting the practice of killing month old seals for their pelts is a factor. They aren't all in unison - Norway for instance is against the ban. While I don't think they are doing it for protectinism, I do think that it is an easier target than something that will greatly affect an EU member.
"I don't disagree with you that they have the right to ban what they want, but considering their own barbaric traditions, and their evident refusal to consider them in the same light as sealing, I think it's perfectly appropriate to point out what a bunch of hypocrites they are, and to dismiss them as such."
You may have a point there.
I think it would be much more useful, and alleviate much more suffering, to go after veal producers than seal hunters.
But seal hunters are from an economically depressed region of the country and therefore a much easier target, right? The EU are being total hypocrites on this.
Yeah, the whopping six million dollar industry that provides two weeks of work to a few hundred people.
There's no way that they could find something else to do during that two week period.
It's a good thing that they don't have slavers in Newfoundland or we'd probably have to defend that industry too.
Being a slaver would be part of their heritage and there's no way we could take their livelihoods away.
We can never get in the way of people working hard to feed their families.
Isn't that tired cliche used to justify just about every unscrupulous practice on the planet?
You see food it so very, very complicated. It really doesn't matter what you are- total carnivore or total raw fruit vegan you create negatives every where. It is all about what negatives you are prepared to ignore to help yourself sleep at night. All food production interacts with the environment and all commercial food production (food raised for someone else) takes something out of the environment in one form or another.
Hey Bookish, why don't you save us all a lot of time and cut to the chase.
Make a post asking if carrots suffer when we eat them. That's really where this little attempt at obfuscation is going anyway.
Also, in case you missed it, this isn't about food - this is about baby seal pelts.
"Keystone - it's interesting to see how you can identify one set of tactics used here in Canada, but completely miss the same tactics being used to villinify the Seal hunt in the EU to distract from Mink farming and other practices. "
Why don't you tell me which tactics are being used to villinify [sic] the seal hunt in the EU?
I know it's fun to presume that all those opposed to the seal hunt are 12 year olds, worried about the cute little seals, but it simply isn't true. Mink are also pretty cute, by the way, although voracious predators.
"Have you seen an anti-sealing ad that didn't feature a (usually plastic) whitecoat covered in red food colouring?If you go somewhere that the media hasn't done the opposite of our media, then you'll find they don't care either way."
Yes, I have. Most of the ads use beater seals in the ads, which represent the vast majority of the seals being killed. These seals range in age from two weeks to about three months. If red food colouring is used, do you ask yourself why? Do you think seals aren't being killed? It's because the Canadian government does not let anyone but the sealers anywhere near the seal hunt, because they don't want footage leaking out. Why? What exactly do they have to hide?
"It's polarized in both directions...it's funny that you can only see the the polarization that helps your talking points. "
All I see is the polarization that distances itself from the truth. The only reason that whitecoats aren't killed anymore is so that the anti-sealers can't use the image anymore. This lets people like you have the false impression that baby seals aren't killed because the pups are now two weeks old instead of two days.
I agree, though I am not upset with, nor do I think Keystone's comments are off the mark by any means.
But in the end, it is the hypocrisy.
I think it gets dangerous when 'hypocrisy' becomes a carte blanche for ignoring arguments. That was also the line South Africa used when confronted by Canadian criticism of apartheid and of course we were being hypocritical but that doesn't mean that our criticism was wrong or that the political reasons for our government's 'hypocritical' position undermined the grassroots pressure from activists and citizens.
The EU is not a monolithic bloc, and like our neighbour to the South I have more time for the citizens then the government and I'd say there are serious and very motivated animal rights activists there(to an extent that maybe doesn't exist in Canada outside of people concerned with pet's rights) who are fighting what they perceive as wrong and I haven't seen any proof that they are being hypocritical about animal rights issues in their own countries. The reality is that they face less opposition for things which effect countries outside the EU like the seal hunt. However, that doesn't mean that they aren't also launching campaigns against local animal rights abuses like bullfighting where there is a motivated campaign including political parties running in elections. Writing off their concerns simply because their governments haven't responded to these local campaigns is a fine political position(and a position one would expect from a government) but it doesn't really engage with whether their criticisms of the seal hunt have any real moral weight.
I think the whole thing is kinda sad, Canadian nationalism seems to have come to this-a defensive belligerent insistance on our right to be indifferent towards a global animal rights campaign concerned about cruelty to seals. From progessive to Conservative there seems to be a very strong cosensus that Canada should not budge when it comes to the conduct of this industry. I think its partly a reaction to Canada's dwindling importance, that there seems to be a collective need to take a stand on anything remotely populist and folksy. I don't think the commercial hunt is as noble and pure as some on here would like to believe. If Canadians are so worried about the absence of the European market then they should put their money where their mouth is and create a local market here. Boohoo, European fashions for North American animals have changed yet again, whoever could have predicted that might happen? Maybe if you didn't get through grade 4 social studies...
While I think Indigenous sealing is the last place to tackle animal rights issues, I must confess that I do like it when animals turn the tables on us :
http://blogs.wsj.com/photojournal/2009/05/28/pictures-of-the-day-186/
"There's widespread animal abuse going on all over the world, from the force-fed foie gras geese to the battery chickens that get their beaks cut off, to monkeys that get vivisected, to encaged bears in China with tubes draining from their gall bladders. By international standards, the seal hunt doesn't seem so bad, considering that the seals get to live their lives in the wild before being killed."
There is widespread mistreatment of first nations people. Some nations are far worse than Canada. Does that mean we shouldn't clean up our act. Does the presence of a greater evil justify our smaller evil? Shall we apply the lowest common denominator approach to all ethical and environmental concerns? Sounds like a great way to destroy the planet. Regardless, I think we need to outlaw those other things as well. China is by far the most reprehensible country on the planet when it comes to animal rights. So, defending our practices based on what they do is a little like defending the crimes of our armed forces, based on what Al-Qaeda does.
"IMO, the whole seal hunt thing is a fund-raising ploy by animal rights' activists. I mean, it's got all the essential elements: cute animals with big baby-human-looking eyes being killed by people who don't have a lot of power and money to defend themselves. Just splash around a few flyers showing the red blood on the white ice, and all the people who don't hate puppies and kittens are opening their wallets. "
The seal hunt is unique in the sense that there is no other slaughter of infant wild mammals for their pelts of this magnitude.
Granted, there are other abuses which are worse that exist. That does not make the seal hunt OK.
"It's emotionally-based manipulation with no basis in real conservation. Seals are not an endangered species, but some of the fish they eat are. "
Amazingly, long before man, nature was able to ensure the survival of species through cycles of the numbers of population.
Here is a simple example of how it works:
1) The predator eats too much prey.
2) The numbers of the prey decline.
3) The numbers of the predator decline due to a lack of prey.
4) The number of prey go up because there are fewer predators.
5) The number of predators go up, because there is more prey.
Repeat.
Man is generally responsible for the extinction and endangering of far more species than seals.
Ending the seal hunt is not about conservation. It is about cruelty.
There is no shortage of dogs, yet we don't approve of Michael Vick's actions.
[/quote]
"Keystone, your opinion is your opinion, but you've injected so many lies, factual innaccuracies, irrelevancies, inconsistenies, and hypocritical comments into this debate that it is simply impossible to respond to it without writing a tome at least as big as your own. However, if you're interested in hearing a point-by-point analysis from a fellow progressive, I'm game. In the meantime, it seems every single thing you've written can be easily countered by almost anyone in the attentive public with a passing knowledge of this issue. Quite frankly I'm surprised that someone who CLAIMS to have witnessed the seal hunt in Nunavut would say such startlingly silly and simplistic things as you've said."
All I see here is a lot of empty fist-pounding and histrionics, with no actual substance behind it. You've written a paragraph explaining how you don't have enough time to point out all my alleged lies, and gone on with more blather, but you haven't actually said what any of these alleged lies were. Why don't you start there?
"I suppose the most glaringly hypocritical thing you've said is that you derided the Governor-General for supposedly "[trying to] protect the commerical seal hunt by using the Inuit culture and way of life" when you yourself are using the supposed differences between the Inuit and non-Inuit hunts (there are in fact few if any differences) to defend your own position on this hunt."
Well, it was the GG and the pro-sealing side that injected the Inuit into this debate. You don't think there are many differences?
Do you think that the Inuit kill baby seals or adults seals? Do you thnk the Inuit eat seal meat or discard it?
Yes, I know you can go to the DFO and find a list of all the uses for seal products, but really it's about the pelt and we all know it. Any other uses are simply for obfuscation of the fact that baby seals are being killed for their pelt.
"On another note, both sides here are using the Inuit here (apparently no one gives a shit about poor people in Quebec and Atlantic Canada); the difference is that the Inuit are one side, and you, Keystone, are on the other."
Yeah, you'r right. I don't care about the two weeks of work that the sealers get a year at the expense of baby seals, and the reputation of Canada. I don't really buy the idea that the seal hunt is going to make the difference between life and starvation. I have enough confidence in Atlantic Canadians that they can find something else to do,
As far as this EU "exemption for the Inuit" goes -- it's only an exemption if they stay in the nice convenient illusions spun about them in Europe, and don't do anything commercial. The exemption is more an attempt to impose a certain way of life on the Inuit, one that has more to do with Rousseau's fantasies than the loved reality of anyone in Nunavut or the rest of the north. To me, it looks like racism dressed up in a nice shiny suit.
Wow, throw out the racist label just to back your side. Impressive.
Is it also racism for the Canadian goverment to allow First Nations people additional hunting and fishing privileges?
Could it possibly be that the Europeans accept that sealing is a part of the heritage and culture of the Inuit people, and they respect the fact that the Inuit people use the entire animal?
Sure, I suppose if FN started doing a mass slaughter in Atlantic Canada, throwing away the carcasses, and selling baby seal pelts to Europeans, the EU might change their mind. What racists.
You're just absurd. Seriously. Way to water down the term 'racist'
Keystone, I'll try to list as many as possible, although this may take a few posts:
- Your evidence for the supposed differences between Inuit and non-Inuit hunts (for which there are few if any) was the following generalization: you once saw "...the Inuit seal hunt. They cut a hole in the ice, and then they wait patiently for a seal to come up for air before they harpoon it", then you said "I'm fairly certain that the Inuit seal hunt doesn't involve running around on the ice floes and trying to club as many baby seals to death as possible." I'd ask you to settle on one of them, but I can tell by their mutual inconsistency that you are, at worst, making this up as you go along.
Since you seem to be melding truth and fiction here, let's state a few facts: the main differences between the Inuit and non-Inuit hunts to the extent that there even are any anymore, are that the Inuit are more likely to use the seal meat for their own food. And due mainly to geography and population the Inuit (but also coastal Naskapi/Innu and Labrador Metis) hunts are less industrial in scope. But the Inuit participate in this hunt for commercial reasons too, not just the educational and cultural reasons dictated to them by our benevolent friends in Strasbourg. This may not jive well with the noble savage narratives we as progressives may have conjured up about indigenous peoples, but Inuit sealing companies exist, Inuit seal exports exist, it is a large chunk of the economy of Nunavut, it is one of the few enterprises that is largely independent from and not initiated/directed by the territorial/federal governments, and you might have noticed that people in the North are pissed, despite the EU's "exemption". Why do you think that is?
- In fact, not only are the Inuit and non-Inuit hunts NOT different, there are seal hunts in other countries too, including EU member countries. Of course, most of these are culls, or hunts done for conseration. But the hunts that take place within Europe but outside the EU such as in Greenland and Norway, differ from the Canadian hunt only in size (Greenland's is 20,000-25,000, Norway's a bit larger, Canada's is 200,000-300,000). Greenlandic and Norwegian seal pelts, meats, and seal oil are still for sale in the EU.
I must be in the wrong thread for your outrage over those hunts -? Or perhaps you're right, and like the Inuit of Nunavut, Labrador and Quebec, the Greenlandic hunters and the Norwegians just politely tap seals on their noses, inducing death?
- You apparently have no grasp of the fact that the EU "allowing" the Inuit to continue to hunt for X, Y, and Z reasons (which, functionally, is not an exemption at all) is not "sensitive to their culture" but in fact it reeks with fucking cultural imperialism.
- You seem to be basing your argument on the notion that there is some kind of protectionism/trade issue here, when the real protectionism which you even admitted you are unaware of, is on the EU's part. Denmark, for example, benefits from the very large hunt which takes place in Greenland.
(Having said that, many of the no-votes to the ban by the European Parliament were Danish MEPs and other Nordic legislators because they saw a ban heading their way next, not to mention that Danish firms are the big ones in the seal pelt and seal oil market and some lost out with this new ban.)
Likewise, hunters in Greenland itself benefit from their own ban on the Canadian seal hunt put in place 2 or 3 years ago (a ban which does not differentiate between the Canadian Inuit and Canadian non-Inuit hunts). Greenlandic hunters kill over 20,000 seals for pelts, meat and oil, which are traded to European countries. Some animal rights groups have turned this into a headline or two, but no European parliamentarian has. The reason: some of the EU's member states have a vested interested in seals getting killed, just so long as it is not in Canadian waters.
- Some of us love to attribute everything we perceive as bad to the actions of the Liberals and Tories. I do it too, but no one in recent memory has done it better than you Keystone. This issue has nothing to do with the Liberals and Tories supposedly concocting a sense of "patriotism" in order to win supposed swing votes. In terms of the dynamics of public opinion and electoral geography we have, this theory is just patently ridiculous. You'll also notice that the NDP and the Bloc both officially support the hunt. Public support for this hunt is almost certainly not the result of "top-down" pressures and is clearly bottom-up. But, public opinion on the issue has been experiencing a slow, secular decline in Canada, and opinion is different depending on region.
- You said: "Let's show the footage of what happens on the ice floes." The fact you've said this in spite of the footage being regularly aired on tv for the past 45+ years is something else. This issue came to the fore first in the late 60s (then again around 1977-78, then again in 1987 with the white coat ban, and now the issue is in annual overdrive) and footage has been shown on Canadian television ever since. The Canadian media, including the CBC which is in every Canadian home with a tv set, liberally shows the hunt even at the moment of killing every year when the bigger hunts take place in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and off the NE coast of NF. It's not easy to escape the issue, and everyone seems to know what the hunt looks like, the good, the bad, the ugly. What more do you want?
- You said "I see a lot of the government talking points being repeated here," which is funny, because I don't see many. I've read the DFO's talking points, which are the same as those used by Paul Okalik, now Eva Aariak, Mary Simon, Danny Williams, the Canadian Sealers Association, the FFAW, etc. The government talking points have always been "But the seal hunt IS humane", but the common theme on this thread and probably among the left in Canada in general, which I share, is that "humane" in any hunt is relative, and that the hunt is a traditional activity that helps largely disenfranchised groups supplement their incomes, and relatively speaking, it is not unethical, particularly compared to what the EU's resume looks like.
Having said that, what have you contributed to this discussion that hasn't already been told to us by the HSUS, IFAW, PETA and the Sea Shepherd Society?
You see food it so very, very complicated. It really doesn't matter what you are- total carnivore or total raw fruit vegan you create negatives every where. It is all about what negatives you are prepared to ignore to help yourself sleep at night. All food production interacts with the environment and all commercial food production (food raised for someone else) takes something out of the environment in one form or another.
Hey Bookish, why don't you save us all a lot of time and cut to the chase.
Make a post asking if carrots suffer when we eat them. That's really where this little attempt at obfuscation is going anyway.Also, in case you missed it, this isn't about food - this is about baby seal pelts.
Wrong culturally biased assumption from you again. What I am pointing out is that commericail agriculture - as opposed to subsistance argriculture - always takes a toll on the envrironment. Your carrots, on balance, have as a big an impact as raising meat and in the end we are ALL hyprocrites, including you, as we all look the other way on the negatives we are willing to accept. Certian practices can minimize those impacts but they are equally available to all sectors of food production.
Your ignorance about the commerical seal hunt is also revealed in your post as pelts are only a small portion of the hunt and much of it is in fact for the meat and other products. But of course you can't fund raise as well without those darling little shots of white coats. It is all about the survival of the cutest and the protection of the best fundraiser.
What I abhor is the hypocrisy, but you seem prepared to accept it to make yourself feel better. That's your right, but lecturing others as ignorant who are not prepared to accept it is tedious.
"There is widespread mistreatment of first nations people. Some nations are far worse than Canada. Does that mean we shouldn't clean up our act. Does the presence of a greater evil justify our smaller evil? Shall we apply the lowest common denominator approach to all ethical and environmental concerns? Sounds like a great way to destroy the planet. Regardless, I think we need to outlaw those other things as well. Ending the seal hunt is not about conservation. It is about cruelty.
There is no shortage of dogs, yet we don't approve of Michael Vick's actions.
Yesterday I issued a statement applauding Governor General Michaelle Jean's participation in a community feast held in her honour in Rankin Inlet, Nunavut. That statement was in response to what I would characterize as sensationalized, inappropriate, intolerant, and very uninformed, comments that were circulating in the media.
Let's discuss what actually happened the other day at the community feast in Rankin Inlet from the perspective of the Inuit people who live there. The Governor General of Canada visited an Inuit community.
While there she met, socialized, and ate with the people she represents who live there. What could possibly be more natural than that?
When people like Paul Watson of the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society say they are "disgusted [that] the British monarch's representative would do such a thing", or that he is "extremely embarrassed to be associated with a governor general of his country "eating raw seal like that, or use words such as "barbaric, I can only conclude that they are ignorant of our culture.
When animal rights activists use phrases like "Neanderthal" and "blood lust", or when a European Union spokeswoman says that it is "too bizarre to acknowledge", in describing their reactions, again I would put this down to being unaware of our vibrant Inuit culture, which is very much alive.
The sharing of food has always played a very important role in our culture. For thousands of years before Europeans came to our lands Inuit have shared their food with friends, family, neighbours, and even complete strangers. The act of sharing food is an affirmation of acceptance, friendship, and goodwill on the part of those who have offered food to someone else, and when others eat with us it is seen as an affirmation of acceptance, friendship, and goodwill on their part - this is a very fundamental part of who we are as a people.
skarredmonkey, there was a comprehensive study done on the seal hunt in 1975-76, by the Dept of Fisheries and Oceans in conjunction with representatives of the WWF. There was a lengthy report done on their findings, it is actually a small book, which is an interesting read nowadays in this current situation. Anyway, the bottom line consensus, in the 1976 report, was that the majority of the seal hunt was conducted very humanely, and of note this was arrived at before the white coat ban of the 80's.
keystone, our first post indicated, by your riders saying such, that if the EU is using this ban for protectionist reasons it is wrong of them to do so, as such I would say you know full well it is protectionist in nature, hence the rider, and that you are quite willing to exploit their protectionism, as it suits your end game. And I will also say, there is a good deal of racist and classist ideology in your words, but yet you arrogently think you can bash others for not being "progessive"...
You say:
Yeah, the whopping six million dollar industry that provides two weeks of work to a few hundred people.
There's no way that they could find something else to do during that two week period.
It's a good thing that they don't have slavers in Newfoundland or we'd probably have to defend that industry too.
Being a slaver would be part of their heritage and there's no way we could take their livelihoods away.We can never get in the way of people working hard to feed their families.
Isn't that tired cliche used to justify just about every unscrupulous practice on the planet?
And I say you are racist and classist for saying this, at best, plus severely lacking in thought processes to liken create a strawman like that in the last sentence of the first paragraph, in order to negatively position those in support of the seal hunt as equal to supporting human slave traders and it is fucking BS racism, for several reasons, the main one being how dare you compare African people who were made into slaves, as equal to that of seals.
And I say you are racist and classist for saying this, at best, plus severely lacking in thought processes to liken create a strawman like that in the last sentence of the first paragraph, in order to negatively position those in support of the seal hunt as equal to supporting human slave traders and it is fucking BS racism, for several reasons, the main one being how dare you compare African people who were made into slaves, as equal to that of seals.
There was an actual PETA campaign, which used that comparison - and it received huge outcry from African-Americans.
Wow, thanks ghislaine, unbelievable, and here we have keystone re-uttering those same words here, after correct exception was taken to them by African Americans, and in conjunction with his calling our "progressive" credentials into question.
Which brings me to this comment of his:
Amazingly, long before man, nature was able to ensure the survival of species through cycles of the numbers of population.
Here is a simple example of how it works:1) The predator eats too much prey.
2) The numbers of the prey decline.
3) The numbers of the predator decline due to a lack of prey.
4) The number of prey go up because there are fewer predators.
5) The number of predators go up, because there is more prey.
Repeat.Man is generally responsible for the extinction and endangering of far more species than seals.
This is simplictic posturing and a romanticization of nature that is almost fantasy.
Nature has caused the extinction of millions of species most likely since the beginning of time, in fact we have no idea of exactly how many became extinct though environmental occurances long before man acheived a high population that has impacted species. Where are the dinosaurs, where are the sabre tooth tigers, where are massive antlered deer, where are the wooly mamouth, and the list could go on.
Having said that I am not, discounting the impact of humans on wildlife, either. However, this instance is not one of them and it is being exploited by both the EU and some wildlife groups, and the botom line is money for both of them.
Thanks for that reminder, remind. What you are referring to a believe is part of evolution. However, none of that means that as an intelligent species that does have the power to cause mass extinction that we should not be responsible. The Canadian seal hunt has a strict quota system and season. The seal population is increasing still. So, the notion that somehow we are going to cause seal extinction under the current rules is bogus.
And yes, I may think eating seal heart, or dog or ants is disgusting. But to other cultures and peoples, it is not and it is a way of life.
If 21st century rich urban culture is veganism, fine. However, that is not going to be feasible or viable in many parts of world - most notably on the tundra. Try going carrots there!
Behold the 100 mile diet, far north style.
Keystone:
Why don't you tell me which tactics are being used to villinify [sic] the seal hunt in the EU?
I know it's fun to presume that all those opposed to the seal hunt are 12 year olds, worried about the cute little seals, but it simply isn't true. Mink are also pretty cute, by the way, although voracious predators.
Errr...you're aware seals are voracious predators, no? Starting to suspect you haven't seen a seal outside of the advertisements. The biggest difference between the seal hunt and the Mink is Mink are farmed creatures while seals live (mostly) free. Do they launch these ad campaigns vs Farmed animals at all? Will stick to mink since it's a similiar fur story, but the treatment of factory farmed animals are far worse than any seal...fortunately pigs and cows ain't cute. It's just the cute seal from a foriegn nation that's easy to single out and give the spotlight. You don't see this as singling out the cute one yet?
Oh, I know it's fun to presume that all people that don't agree with your standpoint are presuming "that all those opposed to the seal hunt are 12 year olds"...you're doing a decent job of putting words in the mouth of people that disagree with you. Perhaps you should stop presuming anyone who disagrees with you is uneducated on the matter?
Back to this point:
Assuming that this banning is not disguised protectionism, I feel that every country should have the right to ban products that they feel are produced unethically.
Would you defend China's right to ban products from other nations that used child labour despite engaging in child factories then? I'm curious what other hypocrasies you'll be willing to defend like this or if your opinion changes if the hypocrasy isn't helping your issue.
And your romantization point on nature survival of species is pathetic, almost like you're unaware that we've crippled the seals natural predators and it cannot return to balance.
"Since you seem to be melding truth and fiction here, let's state a few facts: the main differences between the Inuit and non-Inuit hunts to the extent that there even are any anymore, are that the Inuit are more likely to use the seal meat for their own food. And due mainly to geography and population the Inuit (but also coastal Naskapi/Innu and Labrador Metis) hunts are less industrial in scope."
Well, that's a pretty big difference right here. Killing for food vs killing to provide Europeans with fancy coats.
It's funny how the sealer-apologists paint the Inuit hunt as an eco-friendly centuries old tradition when it suits their purposes, and then reveal that it's a big commerical hunt when it suits their purposes. OK, so some inuit make the seal hunt a commercial harvest, and the EU isn't allowing those products - too bad. You can hardly suggest that killing seals in huge quantities using the most advanced technology is part of Inuit culture. For those that hunt traditionally - fine.
"- In fact, not only are the Inuit and non-Inuit hunts NOT different, there are seal hunts in other countries too, including EU member countries. Of course, most of these are culls, or hunts done for conseration. But the hunts that take place within Europe but outside the EU such as in Greenland and Norway, differ from the Canadian hunt only in size (Greenland's is 20,000-25,000, Norway's a bit larger, Canada's is 200,000-300,000). Greenlandic and Norwegian seal pelts, meats, and seal oil are still for sale in the EU."
You do of course realize that the ban includes them as well, which is the reason those countries are opposed to the ban?
"You apparently have no grasp of the fact that the EU "allowing" the Inuit to continue to hunt for X, Y, and Z reasons (which, functionally, is not an exemption at all) is not "sensitive to their culture" but in fact it reeks with fucking cultural imperialism."
I'd be much happier if they didn't let the Inuit export either. I'm fairly sure that no matter what the stance of the EU is in regards to the Inuit practices, you and the other sealer apologists would find a way to call them racist imperialists. Please, tell me how they could impose a ban on sealing products with exemptions for FN that would not offend you? It's all a lot of contrived histrionics, and we both know it.
"You seem to be basing your argument on the notion that there is some kind of protectionism/trade issue here, when the real protectionism which you even admitted you are unaware of, is on the EU's part. Denmark, for example, benefits from the very large hunt which takes place in Greenland."
I see, so you feel that the EU is doing this to help Greenland? Great theory, but perhaps you can tell me why Greenland is thretening to take the EU to the WTO then?
The NDP support the hunt because they pander for Atlantic Canada as much as anyone else. The cowardly NDP even asked their chief of staff Rick Smith to resign, because he had ties to seal-protesting. Not only do the NDP support the seal hunt, they have a witch hunt in their executive ranks for anyone who does.
The footage used to be shown a lot. That was the reason for many of the reforms - such as not killing white coats, the eyeprick test etc. But, since then, the DFO has also made sure that protesters aren't allowed anywhere near the sealers. They claim it is for safety, but a big part of the reason is that they don't want that footage shown, as they know that the truth of the seal hunt will change public opinion.
Well Keystone, why don't you read what the Inuit have to say on the subject? They clearly support the commercial hunt and there are businesses doing all sorts of things with seal products, as Mary Simon points out. Sealskin Inuit fashion for starters. So, some rich white person wearing leather shoes tries to tell them that that is not an Inuit tradition? Unless they are eating raw seal with an Ulu knife (after waiting patiently at an ice hole ), they are overstepping their white-defined cultural bounds?
So wonderful to have such an expert of Inuit traditions and culture here to advise them.
Pffft, again a racist diatribe form keystone.
As keystone that is what this is:
It's funny how the sealer-apologists paint the Inuit hunt as an eco-friendly centuries old tradition when it suits their purposes, and then reveal that it's a big commerical hunt when it suits their purposes. OK, so some inuit make the seal hunt a commercial harvest, and the EU isn't allowing those products - too bad. You can hardly suggest that killing seals in huge quantities using the most advanced technology is part of Inuit culture. For those that hunt traditionally - fine.
Pathetic!
"- In fact, not only are the Inuit and non-Inuit hunts NOT different, there are seal hunts in other countries too, including EU member countries. Of course, most of these are culls, or hunts done for conseration. But the hunts that take place within Europe but outside the EU such as in Greenland and Norway, differ from the Canadian hunt only in size (Greenland's is 20,000-25,000, Norway's a bit larger, Canada's is 200,000-300,000). Greenlandic and Norwegian seal pelts, meats, and seal oil are still for sale in the EU."
You do of course realize that the ban includes them as well, which is the reason those countries are opposed to the ban?
I wasn't aware of that...anyone have a document as to what the EU ban include / does not include?
added:
It's funny how the sealer-apologists paint the Inuit hunt as an eco-friendly centuries old tradition when it suits their purposes, and then reveal that it's a big commerical hunt when it suits their purposes
So can you see how I'd become as skeptical when you resort to the same tactic?
CBC's Rex Murphy was gushing with praise for the GG last night, as were the entire CBC At Issue panel. Rex suggested the GG award herself one of her own Governor General's medals. I agree. 
Murphy really exposed the hypocrisy of PETA and folks like Pamela Anderson, and basically told them all to take a hike. One of Rex's better moments. 
BoomBoom, I think Canadians in general are pretty fed up with the paucity of leadership at the moment - so that is feeding the excitement about the GG as well. I wish there would be more coverage of her excellent suggestion for a Northern university though. It should not have to big news that she ate freaking seal sushi. How many sushi restaurants are there in the major cities around the globe?
You know keystone you are starting to remind me of a 13 year old who thinks they know it all. You keep having your statements shown to be factually incorrect, but you keep insisting on making them - over and over. Next I expect you to stomp your foot and slam your door rather than confront the fact that maybe you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Inuit never only hunted seals at a air hole. They did/do that when the ice cover was on. During clear times they hunted in other ways. Seal products have a long and sustained tradition of being commercial in nature in many First Nations communities. That commercial trade pre-dates Eurpoean settlement. Commerical hunting is simply the trading of one good for another. Today we mostly barter in money, but it is the exact same mechanism and is as old as the hills.
Where did you get your first hand knowledge on the subject of hunting techniques- Hinterlands Whos Who? Your claim to knowledge about the seal hunt, both First Nations and otherwise, seems to have come off the back of a pamphlet. I would suggest you learn just a wee bit more before attacking anyone else and check your unsavoury ethnic bias at the door too.
BoomBoom, I think Canadians in general are pretty fed up with the paucity of leadership at the moment - so that is feeding the excitement about the GG as well. I wish there would be more coverage of her excellent suggestion for a Northern university though. It should not have to big news that she ate freaking seal sushi. How many sushi restaurants are there in the major cities around the globe?
This is indeed sad to learn how that was overlooked. As someone with family in Nunavut and having spent some time there of my own it is pretty clear that a university in the north could be an important tool for community development. Too many young people go south for an education and stay there, or are fed a much different perspective than what is contained in their cultural backgrounds. A suggestion well worth much more attention.
"Your ignorance about the commerical seal hunt is also revealed in your post as pelts are only a small portion of the hunt and much of it is in fact for the meat and other products. But of course you can't fund raise as well without those darling little shots of white coats. It is all about the survival of the cutest and the protection of the best fundraiser. "
Wow, you've swallowed the DFO propaganda hook line and sinker if you think that the pelts are a small portion of the hunt.
Sure, the DFO site lists other products, but it's a few token things aimed at clouding the fact that the hunt is really about the pelts. It's not about the meat, or the Omega-3 oil, it's about the pelts. Otherwise, they would kill the adult seals instead of the beaters.
As for the oft repeated mantra of the seal-apologist, about the white coat images. They used to kill white coats. Therefore, there was every reason to show the white coat images. Then they banned the killing of whitecoats simply so that those opposed could be criticized if they used those images. The seals are still only a few weeks old, a few months at best, and don't even know how to swim yet.
As for lecturing about ignorance, anyone who thinks that seal pelts make up a small portion of the hunts, needs a good lecture.
"Is it also racism for the Canadian goverment to allow First Nations people additional hunting and fishing privileges?"
No, Keystone, I don't think it is. The fact that you'd ask that tells me something about where you are coming from, though.
Others have addressed the point about why it's racist for the EU to insist on a "pure" hole-in-the-ice culture, and reject what the actual Inuit leaders today are saying as "barbarism."
So no, I don't think it's watering down the term "racism" to notice structural forms of insidious racism that inform EU policy in this case. Sure, it's a friendlier sort of racism, like Rousseau's writing about "noble savages," but it's still worth pointing out. Glad to hear that you think a bunch of Europeans imposing their own romantic 17th C illusions on today's Inuit is somehow culturally sensitive. I look forward to your advocacy for taking away other economic advances made by indigenous people. Hey, I saw some throat singing this week. It was cool. Better ban Susan Aglukark from using amplification!
Yes Keystone, when a seal is killed, all parts may or may not be used. Same with a cow. I am not sure where people think leather comes from?
And yes [url=http://www.cbc.ca/canada/north/story/2009/05/22/nunavut-seal-skins.html] the Inuit want to participate in the commercial seal pelt industry [/url]:
About 10,000 seal skins from Nunavut were shipped to the Fur Harvesters Auction House for sale in the past year, but the sale of those pelts drastically dropped as buyers around the world became aware of the EU's pending seal product ban.
"In the last two years that the ban's been building up towards this implementation of the ban, the market's been getting tougher and tougher," said James Gibb, public relations director with the auction house.
Awa said the Nunavut government will decide next year whether to allow the seal skin purchasing program to continue, depending on how well it is received.
So, I would be interested to hear the reaction from the Inuit of your opinion of what they should and should not do culturally.
Telling First Nations that their culture only permits them to hunt by "waiting around an ice hole" (as you claim is the only way they hunt - ps have you ever watched whales being harpooned and dragged back to shore?) and that selling seal products is somehow not part of FN culture is mistreatment of FN.
Well, let's see. The EU can:
1) Give no exceptions.
2) Give an exception to the Inuit to continue their traditional hunt.
3) Give an exception to the Inuit to hunt anyway they like.
Regardless of what they do, they will be blasted by the sealer-apologists.
I guess I'm a racist/classist etc, because I don't think that the Inuit have a long, rich history of slaughering thousands of baby seals for their pelts and selling them to Europeans to make coats.
"How many freaking white people have been defining FN culture for them? How many white European urbanites have used terms like neanderthal, savage and cruel?"
Nice try, but those terms were not used to describe the Inuit traditions, but rather the commercial seal hunt, and you know it.
But I have come to expect intellectual dishonestly from sealer-apologists.
"Your ignorance about the commerical seal hunt is also revealed in your post as pelts are only a small portion of the hunt and much of it is in fact for the meat and other products. But of course you can't fund raise as well without those darling little shots of white coats. It is all about the survival of the cutest and the protection of the best fundraiser. "
Wow, you've swallowed the DFO propaganda hook line and sinker if you think that the pelts are a small portion of the hunt.
Sure, the DFO site lists other products, but it's a few token things aimed at clouding the fact that the hunt is really about the pelts. It's not about the meat, or the Omega-3 oil, it's about the pelts. Otherwise, they would kill the adult seals instead of the beaters.As for the oft repeated mantra of the seal-apologist, about the white coat images. They used to kill white coats. Therefore, there was every reason to show the white coat images. Then they banned the killing of whitecoats simply so that those opposed could be criticized if they used those images. The seals are still only a few weeks old, a few months at best, and don't even know how to swim yet.
As for lecturing about ignorance, anyone who thinks that seal pelts make up a small portion of the hunts, needs a good lecture.
You see unlike you I base my knowledge on first hand experience both for myself and family members, not the back of a pamphlet, or the opinions of governments, mine or others, or on people who have never been near a seal hunt beyond their tv. So your claim that the current hunt is only about pelts, or frankly ever was, is simply a display of either your lack of knowledge or honesty. Be against the seal hunt, or any other practice - that's your right. Could care less, I am no fan of seal meat myself - too greasy for my tastes. While that is your right lecturing others while standing on a steaming pile of hypocriscy is not.
How old will the fish be on the menus of millions of EU dinning tables tonight be? What about Lobsters, or crab? Oh that's right fish and lobsters aren't cute unless they are animated in a Disney movie. Survival of the cutest.
I guess I'm a racist/classist etc, because I don't think that the Inuit have a long, rich history of slaughering thousands of baby seals for their pelts and selling them to Europeans to make coats.
They do and they don't. It's immaterial though. What Mary Simon points out is that, [i]regardless of the history[/i], there is a desire for a commercial hunt now. The EU response? In effect, it's: No, you can't. Not unless you stay the way our imagination wants you to be. Only white people are allowed to decide for themselves, only white people are allowed to make changes to their own culture. Now stop being barbarians and have a slice of nice, civilized foie gras.
"One law for the lion and the ox is oppression" - Blake
"skarredmonkey, there was a comprehensive study done on the seal hunt in 1975-76, by the Dept of Fisheries and Oceans in conjunction with representatives of the WWF. There was a lengthy report done on their findings, it is actually a small book, which is an interesting read nowadays in this current situation. Anyway, the bottom line consensus, in the 1976 report, was that the majority of the seal hunt was conducted very humanely, and of note this was arrived at before the white coat ban of the 80's."
Well, for starters, animal rights was pretty much non-existent in the 1970's. Singer's Animal Liberation wasn't even publshed until 1975. The DFO has no credibility, and the WWF has always been concerned about conservation not cruelty.
It's been well documented that white-coats were killed and seals were skinned alive.
But, that's probably all humane, according to the DFO.
"keystone, our first post indicated, by your riders saying such, that if the EU is using this ban for protectionist reasons it is wrong of them to do so, as such I would say you know full well it is protectionist in nature, hence the rider, and that you are quite willing to exploit their protectionism, as it suits your end game. And I will also say, there is a good deal of racist and classist ideology in your words, but yet you arrogently think you can bash others for not being "progessive"..."
Firstly, if you read my post, you would say that I do not believe this is protectionism. So, your conclusions are flawed.
If it was protectionism, then the countries being protected would be in favour of it, but sinse Denmark is threatening to take it to the WTO, and the Scandinavian countries are opposed to it too.
"And I say you are racist and classist for saying this,"
Well, that sure is a lot easier than actually debating. Good stuff.
"at best, plus severely lacking in thought processes to liken create a strawman like that in the last sentence of the first paragraph"
Strawman? So, no one is saying that we can't shut this down, because people depend on it for their livelihood (aka putting food on the table for their families?) OK, so why are we keeping it going then?
"in order to negatively position those in support of the seal hunt as equal to supporting human slave traders and it is fucking BS racism, for several reasons, the main one being how dare you compare African people who were made into slaves, as equal to that of seals."
Well. then you need to go back to school and learn the difference between similar and same.
Similar means that they have something in common (slavery and the seal hunt are both cruel - although to varying degrees)
Same means equal means that there is no difference
Here is a nice simple webpage for you to read, before you embarass yourself again:
http://www.regentsprep.org/rEGENTS/math/similar/Lsimilar.htm
Although, it should be blitheringly obvious, I am not saying that killing seals is as bad as slavery.
I am saying that the fact that people can earn a living from something, does not justify cruelty.
But it's probably much easier to yell racist every third post, than it is to actually debate.
Well Keystone, why don't you read what the Inuit have to say on the subject? They clearly support the commercial hunt and there are businesses doing all sorts of things with seal products, as Mary Simon points out. Sealskin Inuit fashion for starters. So, some rich white person wearing leather shoes tries to tell them that that is not an Inuit tradition? Unless they are eating raw seal with an Ulu knife (after waiting patiently at an ice hole ), they are overstepping their white-defined cultural bounds?
So wonderful to have such an expert of Inuit traditions and culture here to advise them.
I'm sure there are plenty of Inuit who will claim that anything that makes money is part of Inuit culture.
Just because they suppor the commerical hunt, doesn't suddenly mean that it's part of a long, rich tradition.
They can do whatever they want. No one is stopping them from killing and eating all the seals they want any way they want.
The Europeans are simply stating that if the seal products are obtained from a commercian hunt, they aren't buying.
No one is telling them what they can and can't do. They are merely telling them what they will buy.
In other words, they view the commericial hunt as cruel, but the traditional methods not cruel and they will buy cruelty free products.
Nice try, but those terms were not used to describe the Inuit traditions, but rather the commercial seal hunt, and you know it.
They were used in response to the Governor General eating seal heart, which is to say, the Governor General participating in an Inuit social tradition.
Are you making the case that they were responding to the G-G skinning a whitecoat or something? Just read the article. For comprehension this time.
In case you need help, though:
1. Governor-General consumes seal as part of being invited to share in an Inuit tradition
2. PETA spokesracist says of this action "It's amazes us that a Canadian official would indulge in such bloodlust"
3. [evidently, eating seal, as the Inuit do = "bloodlust"
4. PETA spokesracist adds "It sounds like she's trying to give Canadians an even more Neanderthal image around the world than they already have."
5. [evidently, only Neanderthals -- and Inuit, and the G-G -- eat seal]
6. PETA continues by equating the G-G's sampling of seal heart to "taking part in the beating of women in the Middle East because it is part of local practice."
7. You come along to defend them and to pretend that they weren't talking about the Governor General, but rather the commercial hunt
The fact that they mention the commercial hunt, and their opposition to it, doesn't change the fact that the comments about bloodlust, neanderthals and wife beating were entirely in response to Jean and her participation in an Inuit tradition. Hopefully this helps.
Which brings us full circle to the outright hypocriscy of such an argument given their own actions. Isn't life magical sometimes.
Outright racist hypocrisy actually BA.
Meanwhile plastics are destroying, wildlife and marine habitats, and the animals birds and fish are dying from the consumption of the plastics contaminating their environment, and will continue to do so for 100's of years. And so too are domesticated animals. India has gone so far now as to hire plastic police, as they have outlawed single use plastic bags, in order to protect their tottering food chain.
In other words, they view the commericial hunt as cruel, but the traditional methods not cruel and they will buy cruelty free products.
Close...they'll only consider it cruelty if it's cutesy seals. They're fine with most other products obtained through much crueler methodology, seals however...they is so special.
Hypocritical to no end Keystone...when they make similiar statements towards their other imports (I dunno, is there a traditional un-cruel method of factory farming pigs?)...until then, this is singling out the foreign cute animal to keep activists such as yourself from protesting local EU cruelty instead.
Why would you expect the response to be any different than if the US tried to ban products from a nation that resorts to torture?
I am bemused by the much-repeated argument that the seal hunt isn't a significant part of anyone's livelihood because it only goes on two weeks of the year. I don't really know one way or the other, but I bring it up because it pulls the curtain back on the animal rights' industry's true motives. Think of it this way: if the hunt is so inconsequential, why not go after much much larger animal rights' abuses going on, like, everywhere in the world?
How about, for instance, all the cats being killed in the Chinese fur industry?
Oh right; China's been investigated, and they treat all animals humanely 
I would wager that Sir Paul has done more ecological damage with his transcontinental flights (like the ones he takes to pose on the ice next to white coats) than all the years of the seal hunt.
Excellent point Sineed!
I am bemused by the much-repeated argument that the seal hunt isn't a significant part of anyone's livelihood because it only goes on two weeks of the year...I bring it up because it pulls the curtain back on the animal rights' industry's true motives. Think of it this way: if the hunt is so inconsequential, why not go after much much larger animal rights' abuses going on, like, everywhere in the world?
Moreover, I see it as they only have 2 weeks a year to make income, and some racist and classist people want to deprive them of that too!
And Keystone for some reason refuses to acknoledge that Inuit people design, make and wear clothes with seal (amoung other animals). I would love to hear if he is wearing leather.
If he isn't, he is wearing plastic, which is much much worse, IMV!
An update from the official EU Parliament News site.
It looks like the ban is not just targetted at the Canadian hunt (a surprise, given the enormous emphasis put on that hunt and not the others), but commercial hunts in other countries as well.
The ban appears to be loaded with quite a few asterisks, loopholes and exemptions that it's hard to tell what impact it will have:
- The EU is allowing the sale of seal products hunted by Inuit as part of their traditional hunt, but not as part of a commercial hunt. (Who in the EU is charged with making these distinctions?)
- The ban also exempts "seal products that result from by-products of hunting that is regulated under national law and conducted for the sole purpose of sustainable management of marine resources." In other words, you can sell seal products if the seal was killed in order to conserve your fish stocks.
Both clauses are very interesting, and I suspect they were introduced at the urging of Diana Wallis in an attempt to water down the ban after some in the UK Labour Party made such a do about her prefering a regulatory regime rather than a ban a while back.
Given that the largest markets for seal pelts, meat and seal oil are outside of the EU, and given that even in the event of the market drying, the hunt may continue under the guise of conservation - I wouldn't count on the immediate death of the hunt just yet.
