David Suzuki did not support the BC Liberals

Back in the '80s I read in The Commonwealth where Suzuki addressed an NDP convention with the words, "My fellow New Democrats..."

Has he changed since then?

Watched a program on environmental activism last evening, and I cannot believe how far environmental activism has degraded in the last 23 years. So much so that the 20 something demographics think it is okay to have nukes, and to privatize rivers. One cannot say co-opted loud, nor long, enough.

"And talk about inner cores being sold out, you people have Jane Sterk, former Reform Party supporter, Ralph Klein friend,  worshiper of Gordo, and a pretendy environmentalist, as your leader."

"No we are not getting hammered by the "enviros" we are  getting smeared by the pretendy enviros in Gordo's pockets."

"Now I see this juxtaposition  being made because one does not know the players, the history of the players, in respect to what is going on in BC politics and the environmentalist movement, and the pretendy environmentalist movement, within that framework."

Now it's your turn to prove where I don't think the privatization of rivers is important or where I say I support the carbon tax or whatever.

LP, your quotes fall far short of what you stated I said, nor did I state you were for river privatization or support the carbon tax.

52% voter turnout. We cant blame it all on the NDP. The Liberal friendly news media have to shoulder some of the blame as was the case with the very uninspiring election coverage here in Ontario last election. I think some Ontarians were actually unaware that there was an election campaign happening with our alleged provincial premier making a grand total of three public appearances. His handlers didnt want him saying dumb things like he usually does when he opens his big mouth. Then, a flurry of unprecedented bullshit about separate school funding in the last two weeks of the campaign. I think in BC's case it was a number of Liberal Party diversionary bullshit with news media in full compliance.

We still have people in Liberal Ontario who dont know the diff between FPTP and Canada Post let alone MMP. Lots of them. Record low voter turnout here, too.

Well, big daddy, I am a construction worker who takes tools on  the bus to work for the last 10 years. I voted green because the NDP was against the carbon tax.  And you seem to forget cap and trade.  Cap and trade will also be a "tax on everything" just 5 or 6 years further into the future. Axe the tax was cowardly and dumb.  Nobody ever did say how it got invented.  did it come to James in a dream one night? Was there ANYdebate among party members before someone ratified it?  Do party member opinion in the ndp even matter to the leadership? I think James would puke on them if an ordinary member said anything that she disagreed with. 

How come policy cannot come from below? 

She is deaf to to the voices of plebes. And all the jackasses that she pays to make policy are deaf to ordinary people too.

Big Daddy wrote:

The "Ax the Tax" campaign was indeed brave because it did risk alientating leftist activists in the party, and in some parts of the province, it did.  One cannot characterize it as "gutless" or "capitulation".  It would have been far easier to support the Carbon Tax and appease the leftist Vancouverites who ideologically support Carbon Taxes.

What the NDP did do on this issue was listen to the little people, the working people who live in the suburbs and don't have the option of taking the bus to work.  The construction worker who can't carry his tools in a back pack on the skytrain.  The trucker who essentially is waged labour but through some strange employment relationship is classified as an "independent businessman."  And the ordinary person who eats their veggies and will pay more bvecause of increased transportation costs.  Unfortunately, the Conservatives did get it right with regard to the Carbon Tax.  It is a tax on everything.

The NDP's opposition to the Carbon Tax did not cost it a thing.  Consider the fact that the NDP won seats in Vancouver and Victoria (urban centres) but came up short in the suburbs and the interior, both places that hate the Carbon Tax.  If you want my opinion, the NDP's opposition to the Carbon Tax probably saved a lot of suburban and interior seats from going back to the Liberals.

There's plenty of blame to go around for the fact that the NDP lost ground during this election.  But it didn't have much to do with opposing the Carbon Tax.

brian, the only tools you have to take are a trowel, perhaps an edger, a jointer or 2, and a brush, pretty light weight and smallish stuff, but what of those who have to carry saws, of several types, and many other tools? Apparently, your view of the world does only extend as far as you, LMAO.

I also asked you ndp party members how James comes to decisions.  I asked numerous times and got no answers.  So either you do not know or do not care to know or do not care to tell.   Does she consult and ignore?  Or does she consult at all?  "Agreeing to disagree" with most of the environmental organizations about the carbon tax played totally into gordo's hands.  If james had thoughtfully backed down to Sazukki, she would have got more votes and gordos record would have been examined.

She chose to make the Carbon tax the BIG issue.  Nobody else chose it.

If she had walked away from that stupid battle there were much more winnable battles just round the corner and Sazukki would have been on her side.

Seems the NDP is like religion to a lot of you guys.  You are like cheerleaders or boo boys.   It isn't a sport team,  you should be able to have a real input into the ndp.  Not always lap up the dogs dinner that they feed you. Question them, and reason with them. If you get nowhere with the ndp, then it is time to find a party that listens to you.

Big Daddy wrote:

Well, Brian White, you make all sorts of comments about Carole not listening to the party members but I wonder how precisely you could know such a thing because you, after all, are a Green supporter.  Good thing you voted for that Green Party too because even though the NDP opposes run of the river power projects, coal fire plants, natural gas power plants, the privatizaion of BC Hydro, offshore drilling, and open fish farming, and that all of these things will happen under the BC Liberals, at least you get your Carbon Tax.

Big Daddy wrote:

If you want my opinion, the NDP's opposition to the Carbon Tax probably saved a lot of suburban and interior seats from going back to the Liberals.

Leaving aside whether or not Axe the Tax was ethically, environmentally, ecologically the right thing, I agree with BD and Stockhold here.

I think we are under-estimating the electoral benefit to the NDP that the Axe the Tax campaign had among some key demographics. It may very well have neutralized the supposed losses among left environmentalists, and then some. Some of the closest battles were in the interior, for instance (the two Cariboo ridings, Fraser-Nicola, etc.). And, of course, Axe the Tax did not just appeal to forestry workers but private sector, resource-industry, primary and secondary, unionized and non-unionized workers more broadly. These people used to be solidly NDP, and have been drifting away. Again, regardless of whether or not Axe the Tax was the right thing to do, it probably helped more than it hurt the NDP.

"No one in BC with more than a few braincells votes for the NDP because they think they are going to be paying less taxes."

Lots of people, myself included, vote NDP because we expect to pay less really dumb, regressive taxes that are being used to finance tax cuts for the rich - like the carbon tax. If some rightwing party proposes doubling the GST in order to pay for eliminating all income taxes - i expect the NDP to oppose that. If some rightwing party proposes a regressive "flat tax", I expect the NDP to oppose that. The NDP is supposed to oppose UNFAIR regressive taxes and to support fair taxes. In Ontario in 1990, taxation was the main issue and people were mad at the Liberals for raising taxes so much - they reacted by voting NDP because the NDP attacked all the tax increases under the Liberals and proposed a FAIRER tax system.

BTW: Fr all the talk about "axe the tax", it isn't clear to me that that slogan even got used very much. i never saw it in any NDP TV or radio ads and as far as i know it was not a central slogan of the campaign. Where and how was it actually ever used?

@Brian White

"I also asked you ndp party members how James comes to decisions."

She consults with her caucus and advisors.  How do you come up with your decisions?

" "Agreeing to disagree" with most of the environmental organizations about the carbon tax played totally into gordo's hands.  If james had thoughtfully backed down to Sazukki, she would have got more votes and gordos record would have been examined."

Utter bullshit.  If James had taken orders from Suzuki she would have been laughed at across thge province and would have been lucky to retain her own seat.

By the way, I note that although Gord and the Greens had the support of enviros that both lost votes in the absolute sense and in the popular vote sense.

"She chose to make the Carbon tax the BIG issue.  Nobody else chose it."

I guess you missed Suzuki's and Berman's press conference.  It was in all the papers.

"If she had walked away from that stupid battle there were much more winnable battles just round the corner and Sazukki would have been on her side."

No evidence to support that.  And perhaps if she had supported a manned mission to Saturn she would have had the support of the tin-foil hat brigade too?   Face it, you wouldn't have voted NDP no matter what Carole did because you got in a huff and happily cut off your own nose to spite your face.

"Seems the NDP is like religion to a lot of you guys."

Yep, its based on a philosophical agreement.  You apparently think it should be based on something else.

"If you get nowhere with the ndp, then it is time to find a party that listens to you."

Let us know how that works out for you.

Axing taxes while increasing spending is right out of Bush's playbook.  An emphasis on 'fixing' the tax would have got the NDP a lot more traction but they though they'd try to outflank the Liberals on the right and ended up losing over 80,000 voters.  I like how the partisans on here tried to completely ignore that reality after the election.  They talked about how James increased the "percentage" of the vote as if some abstract statistic is more important than the fact that 80,000 real flesh and blood voters became alienated from the party while it was in opposition.  Its like this is baseball to these guys.  Their favorite statistic is beyond meaningless too, the party with the highest "percentage" of the vote sometimes doesn't even win the election.  The bottom line is the party alienated 80,000 voters in an election where the incumbent party was much less popular this election than last.  Good job!

@melovesproloes

"Axing taxes while increasing spending is right out of Bush's playbook."

If you want to play that game, taxing the poor to serve the rich is also out of Bush's playbook.  And Campbell's.

"An emphasis on 'fixing' the tax would have got the NDP a lot more tractio"

Why would the NDP fix it?  Its not their baby.  If you support it then you fix it and make it palatable to the rest of us.  Its not our job to fix bad Liberal and Green ideas.  If people that want the carbon tax can't fix it why should the NDP shoulder that responsibility?

"They talked about how James increased the "percentage" of the vote as if some abstract statistic is more important than the fact that 80,000 real flesh and blood voters became alienated from the party while it was in opposition. "

Being as you don't mention the losses by the Greens and the Liberals its obvious you're wilfully ignoring the fact that people didn't turn their backs on the NDP, they turned their backs on politics.

The bottom line is the Liberals and Greens lost more support than the NDP due to their bad policies which includes a carbon tax.

@melovesproloes

Will I have to wait long before you tell me if there's a tax you wouldn't support?

Another tax that should be axed is Medical Service Premiums.  In fact, most of us thought the NDP would get rid of them in the 1990's but it didn't happen because what with Martin slashing provincial transfers the cupboard always seemed bare.

Yet, most left-wingers (perhaps excluding those on Babble) would very much support axing that tax.

I'm sure it would be easy to find left-wingers suporting the removal of the PST and GST too.  As well as taxes on utility bills.

In fact, there's a lot of regressive taxes that should be axed and yet the Right keeps introducing more.

"Lets rename the provincial party.  The CdP Conservative democratic Party."

You didn't support them due to STV and the carbon tax so you obviously don't care about social justice issues.  Instead of renaming the NDP why not just call yourself a Conservative?

Grrrr, I just lost the post I wrote, my browser is having problems with the web analytics on babble.

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Being as you don't mention the losses by the Greens and the Liberals its obvious you're wilfully ignoring the fact that people didn't turn their backs on the NDP

I'm not ignoring anything, right after what you quote I say that the incumbent government was much less popular this election.  This was a winnable election for a competent opposition.  Yet despite that meltdown and the BC NDP tailoring their message for disaffected rightwingers: 'we're the toughest on crime', 'we hate taxes', 'the environmental movement is wrong' ect., instead of gaining votes, the NDP managed to lose 80,000 votes of their own.  That's because rightwingers don't like or trust the NDP regardless of the party's best Stephen Harper impressions.  And those on the centre and left get turned off by what is clearly cynical and unprincipled electioneering.  

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they turned their backs on politics.

Absolutely, but you're the one arguing this doesn't reflect on the quality of our politicians.  

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Why would the NDP fix it?  Its not their baby.  If you support it then you fix it and make it palatable to the rest of us.

That was basically the attitude of the BC Liberals to the Fast Ferries.  That kind of narrow partisanship hurts us all.

There's political will for a carbon tax(more than what there was against it if people voted on this issue) and the BC NDP could have scrapped the tax breaks for the rich and invested in green rural transit and infrastructure.  

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Will I have to wait long before you tell me if there's a tax you wouldn't support?

Sure, I support tax exemptions for people with low incomes.  Like most people, I don't love paying taxes especially as our governments tend to be right wing assholes who spend the money on wars, prisons and cops.  However, a progressive social democratic government should be creative enough to invest revenue from a carbon tax wisely(especially after a lot of the heavy lifting in implementing it and dealing with the backlash had already been done)to build much needed green infrastructure.

Frank_ wrote:

"An emphasis on 'fixing' the tax would have got the NDP a lot more traction"

Why would the NDP fix it?  Its not their baby.  If you support it then you fix it and make it palatable to the rest of us.  Its not our job to fix bad Liberal and Green ideas.  If people that want the carbon tax can't fix it why should the NDP shoulder that responsibility?

Exactly, but it will and did fall on deaf ears.

Brian White wrote:

Part of the point of carbon taxes is to REDUCE transport of basic stuff.

Like food. We have a fabulous climate round victoria to grow cereals and sugar beet and fruit.

Where in the Victoria area are you going to have massive orchards, grain and sugar beet farms? Mitchell's land is only so big! And the BC Liberals have gutted the ALR, and will continue to do so, in order to develop more agricultural land surrounding urban areas.

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same round van.

That agricultural land around Van is already in use, that which has not been developed in urban sprawl and gutting of the ALR, for other crops.

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But none is grown because?

A variet of reasons, see some above, plus farming has been devalued as a industry, in favour of the big corps.

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It is cheaper to transport sugar from Hati

You want to take away the only income Haitians have, in order to satisfy your environmental concerns, that are not based upon reality?

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and grain from the praries.  (Grain yields per hectare on the praries are absolutely horrible).

You know squat about grain farming, if you think anywhere on VIsland or the lower mainland could grow all types of grains, let alone in the amounts needed.

And do slap up some info on low grain yeilds in prairies compared to??? But as you are long on rhetoric and short on evidential proof, I won't hold my breath. Having said that, I would like to see the prairies growing hemp and lots of it, so if you can locate an area that grow grain the way the prairies can let's go for it.

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Fruit comes from water starved california. 

They have to pay their hydro bill to us somehow, and you are failing to see these exchanges are part of federal "trade deals".

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It is a mad world we live in.  All that potential  economic activity exported!

So you think we would be better off being protectionist? Though I do agree we should produce more in BC and stop the imports, and urban sprawl expansion into agricultural land.

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A bad earthquake in Van or california or a bad flu pandemic and we would be starving.

Oh,as always, you are only worried about Brian, and actually want VIsland to be self-sufficient.  BTW, If there is an earth quake in Van, or California, starving will be the least of your worries.

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A carbon tax wakes a few people up.

Who did it wake up?

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Food security is a real issue and it is one that the carbon tax addresses indirectly.

BS that carbon tax addresses it! In fact, farmers are hard hit because of it, and will continue to unless of course they start trading in the pyramid scheme of carbon credits, to break even or be less in the red, so that some/a few "environmentalist orgs" can line their pockets by gouging consumers and producers alike.

"I'm not ignoring anything, right after what you quote I say that the incumbent government was much less popular this election. "

That simply isn't true.  Mustel polling shows the Libs with big leads over the NDP for most of the last 4 years.  The one exception (where it was almost tied)  could be dismissed as the "1 in 20".

Carole had to make up a 17% deficit in a month and she almost pulled it off.   That's an incredible feat no matter where you live in the world.

"And those on the centre and left get turned off by what is clearly cynical and unprincipled electioneering"

They were less "turned off" by the NDP than by the Libs and Greens.

"Quote:
they turned their backs on politics.

Absolutely, but you're the one arguing this doesn't reflect on the quality of our politicians. "

Sort of, I think it reflects on the quality of the electorate more than the politicians.

"Quote:
Why would the NDP fix it?  Its not their baby.  If you support it then you fix it and make it palatable to the rest of us.

That was basically the attitude of the BC Liberals to the Fast Ferries.  That kind of narrow partisanship hurts us all."

What?  That's not an answer.  How is it "narrow partisanship" for the NDP to disagree with Liberal and Green policies?   If next week Campbell put a tax on babies born out of wedlock would the NDP have to support that too but say the tax money will be diverted to daycare programs or something?  I see no reason why the NDP can't simply oppose something it disagrees with.

"However, a progressive social democratic government should be creative enough to invest revenue from a carbon tax wisely(especially after a lot of the heavy lifting in implementing it and dealing with the backlash had already been done)to build much needed green infrastructure."

If the NDP wants to build "green infrastructure" they can do it in a way consistent with their previous record.  Increase existing progressive taxes so that people at the top pay more than people at the bottom.  They won't do it by taxing people at the bottom at the same rate as Jimmy Pattison.

If people didn't vote, we can only hypothesize that they don't like Campbell. They might also just be happy go lucky people who are as happy as clams and don't that it matters who wins because nothing will stop them from being deliriously happy with their lives.

I'm a happy person and if someone asked me to fill out a ballot on who I want to win the Stanley Cup, I'd probably refuse to cast a ballot because I don't follow hockey and I'm indifferent to the outcome.

Incidentally, I think that opposing the carbon tax serves another purpose. The biggest knocks against the NDP tend to be that they will raise taxes and that they are at the beck and call of environmental crackpots who spike trees etc... by opposing the absurd carbon tax - it helped inoculate tyhe NDP against being seen as the party of high taxes and it probably also gained votes from all the hardworking ordinary people struggling to make ends meet who are sick to death of being condescendingly lectured to by drudges like David Suzuki and his sidekick "Tzippi".

"It simply is true and you're contradicting yourself."

Not at all.

Rather than jumping from popular vote to absolute votes to comparison of same with other parties depending on which makes the case better, they all have to be looked at, with polling results over the past 4 years and the previous elections in order to form a coherent picture of what happened.

Its not fair to simply look at the absolute vote difference between the 2005 and 2009 elections in isolation and draw firm conclusions as you did.  Because they just won't hold water when other evidence is introduced.

Which is the point of the Mustel polling results.  They simply don't show the collapse in support over the last 4 years that you claim.

"That's certainly the vibe the BC NDP have given out, I think they've forgotten what the 'D' in their name stands for."

Has Carole James attempted some sort of military coup I'm unaware of?  If a particular voter, let's call him Brian, doesn't want to vote NDP because they won't raise taxes we will just have to live with that.  And when those same voters spend their time attacking the party that has lost 3 elections rather than the governing party one can only assume they are in fact happy with the governing party and unhappy with the NDP.  The NDP can live with that too, after all, all but two other provinces don't vote NDP either with any regularity.

"The NDP membership supported a carbon tax at their 2007 convention.  But then I guess for you that reflects poorly on the membership who like the electorate are not as ideologically advanced as yourself, Carol James and her advisers."

Yes.

Frank_ wrote:

Right-wingers like to point only to the cost of a litre of gasoline forgetting how the tax is applied to everything.

Or as harper said "a tax on everything". You guys are Exactly the same. 

You are at the stage where the pigs said "4 legs good 2 legs better" on your road to full scale harperism.

Bunch of fakes and you do not even know it.

http://www.earth-policy.org/Books/Out/Ote4_2.htm is for Remind.  (Wheat yields in different countries.  I thought it was widely known)

(Some of the smaller european countries get higher per hectare yields than france but that is soft wheat and doesn't really count.)

My da was a farmer.  In a far less suitable climate than southern bc we grew peas, sugar beet wheat and barley. Prarie yields were not an option.

Lots of saanich is ideal for grain production or sugar beet production.

Sugar beet is one of the most productive crops in our climate,  but you guys already know that, eh?

Or we could continue to use the hatians as slave labour to produce our sugar!

Is that really the NDP way?